BS: lets develop Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

"It's north of Watford."

I live north of Watford.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

It's north of Watford.

Apart from Ray Padgett, no bugger else does either.

Tsk

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM

"If you shook off a Westminster yoke, what would you replace it with, a Barnsley yoke?"

I don't live in Barnsley.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

If you shook off a Westminster yoke, what would you replace it with, a Barnsley yoke?

Politicians tinker and the real controllers of destiny, commerce, take political proclamations too seriously. Government tries to be light touch and fails, yet ironically is as influential as if their light touch actually worked. Bankers worked this out years ago.

People used to ask why my company bought out and invested in a factory in Italy, given the Mickey Mouse politics there. Simple. Nobody takes Italian politicians seriously, except UK media who somehow think Italians are as fascinated by their politicians as we are with ours. The commercial interests in Italy get on with providing jobs. Competitively in terms of factory gate prices whilst providing higher than EU average wages. On the back of that success, a further 30 UK jobs in distribution.

They / we still do. (I stepped down 11 years ago but still a non exec')

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

"we have had no functioning Party of the left,"

Not strictly true. The Green Party is a fully functioning left of centre party that is very active locally and has one MP. The real issue for the Greens is the name; they need to reform and embrace the broad church of the left under a different banner as the Greens seem a tad anarchistic as a name. Their policies are progressive, achieved through consensus and consolation and most of all not centred around London.

As capitalism fails, the left would do well to unite to promote a more regulated approach to running the economy whilst encouraging entrepreneurship to flourish. We're not going to compete with the Chinese and Asians, and Africa is still to find it's feet (which it will). We need to look beyond the corporate politics of the right.

The thing is, as Teribus says, trusting virtually any politician is an exercise in futility these days and Scotland will be as vulnerable to their lies and obsfucations after independence as they are now. I'd vote to shake off the Westmonster yoke too, but the utopia of the north is a fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

It must be hard for someone who keeps saying "people around where I live" and then notice two gay Englishmen living down the road who intend to responsibly vote no.

That alone is worth a smile.

Mind you, I don't know where this absentee landlord stuff is coming from. He means me, but of all the titles I have, that certainly isn't one of them. I have no residential lets in Scotland. No intention of having any either. Holiday lets and student digs.

Can't have my premises being used as HQ for Sword and Shield eh?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:49 AM

Liberals and rights campaigners.

Anyone else you wish to blame for your failures?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

Many "liberals" were attracted to the Labour Party by the stench of Blair and his accomplices. Since then, we have had no functioning Party of the left, just another seat on the merry-go-round.

There are few conviction politicians any longer, especially in the "Labour" party, being filled by idiot rights campaigners and "socialist absentee landlords"........God help us!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"
I believe in encouraging self-reliance and on accepting responsibility. To far too many in the United Kingdom the culture of benefit dependence and taking the welfare system (Put in place to act as a temporary "safety blanket") for every penny they can get can is self-destructive and soul-destroying."

Mr T.....I think everyone here would agree with those sentiments entirely, but you must remember that huge numbers were "parked" on benefits when our manufacturing industries became uncompetitive and Scotland's oil revenues used to pay the bill.

As I have already said, people have lost patience with the merry-go-round of Westminster, where one shower of corrupt incompetents are succeeded by an even more incompetent shower.
We need to take responsibility for ourselves, just as you say, make our country and our economy work.....yes there will be those who have lost the work ethic or who have become just too dispirited to even try any longer, but Independence can be a new beginning.
Most Scots have an innate sense of national pride, and will make bloody sure whoever forms the first independent government don't let Scotland's name fall into the gutter us the United Kingdom's has done.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM

You think I voted Labour without considering others Teribus? Glad to see you know my mind. Just a pity you haven't read where I am a floating voter. One that has for local MP reasons always voted Labour.

In council elections, the conservative local cllr is active, visible and responds well. I wasn't in the country the last time she was up for reelection but have no problem whatsoever considering lending her my support next year. The local conservative MP fought hard and long for rural broadband and as of last week I went from <1Mb to 70Mb and have no issue congratulating his efforts. I wrote to say so. I couldn't however trust a conservative government with EU relations. I am a European by outlook.

Nationally, Labour did well domestically under Blair and sadly, only the war mongering will be remembered. Between them, they built up infrastructure and invested in the future. It wasn't sustainable, but the world market wasn't anyway. The only two things I blame Broon for are flogging gold at bottom price and, interestingly, increasing NHS spending a year or two too early.

I may feel strongly that young people need encouragement to get on rather than monkey see monkey do attitudes that promote reliance on the state and black economy, but I disagree completely with your assertion over temporary safety blanket.

Yin and yang. Not everybody can get on. I had an interesting couple of years helping inspect care and nursing homes. I also led on assessing prison healthcare and substance misuse services. That more than anything else cemented my view that we have a responsibility. We need to spend more, not less on those who slip through the net. But for that to happen, we need more contributors. More contributors means less benefit dependence.

Sadly, Westminster through Ian Duncan Smith have seen this as a draconian cost saving exercise and Scotland cannot afford any alternative.

It doesn't take politicians. It takes young people leaving school to be told this is the start of an adventure, grab it if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:15 AM

Whatever Big Al whatever.

I believe in encouraging self-reliance and on accepting responsibility. To far too many in the United Kingdom the culture of benefit dependence and taking the welfare system (Put in place to act as a temporary "safety blanket") for every penny they can get can is self-destructive and soul-destroying.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:34 PM

no Teribus...........not bullshit.

the culture and history of a caring society. its roots, which should be a source of pride to every true British patriot.

real patriotism....as opposed to the flag waving phoney fuckers in the tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

Big Al Whittle - 17 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

Bullshit Big Al - pure Bullshit

You are born and YOU are responsible for your path through life NO-ONE ELSE.

Ah but I forgot - you are a socialist - therefore your automatic default position is that is is - ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

disagree Teribus.

the country owes no one a living. yes it fucking does!
my parents literally starved during the 20's and 30's. they were working family shovelling coal and shale for a bare living, whilst England clung to the gold standard, or whatever the monetarists called 'honest money' in those days.

then they were called onto fight for the dumb fucks who had armed Hitler.

the deal brokered was cradle to grave. if tory shitheads choose to welch on the deal and they have conned buggers like you to vote for it, the deal still stands.

they owe big time for all those tank crews outgunned by panzer tanks, incinerated in Plymouth and Coventry, the wholesale slaughter on the D Day beaches.........
they still owe. they will always owe. they need reminding of that every time they fuck up the economy and sell British industry down the river, for a tax rebate for the rich bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

Akenaton:
1: "Plenty of work in this area, most of it done by single Poles or Eastern Europeans living in sheds and being paid under the minimum wage....Economic migrants.

Our own young people who want to marry, have a family, buy a house, have no equality of opportunity. Houses are out of reach for most even if they could get a mortgage.

What do they do? Some live with their parents, some drift off to the city, live in rented accommodation and watch life passing them by."

Begs the following comments:
a If there is plenty of work why aren't "our own young people" as you refer to them not doing it?
b If "our young people" are living at home then they are one step better off than the Polish of Eastern European workers who must, presumably, be paying rent for their sheds, hired to them by "our locals" most likely. Or perhaps Musket could tell us if he also lets out sheds? ;0)
c What do they do? Get off their arses for a start and realize that the world and life does not owe them a living

2: "Most of the migrants working in this area are single men, here because they can earn three or four times what they can in Eastern Europe....they live in communal dwellings and send almost all their money back to their families.
The guys I spoke to say they have saved enough in 8 years to build a house in Poland.
A married man in Scotland could not live, never mind build a house on the wage rates quoted."

Bullshit – what one can do, then so can another. It requires sacrifice and exercising free choice. If the migrant can survive and save then so too could the Scot (We used to be famous for it). You will also find that you will not find the migrant worker down the pub, or outside it smoking or in the bookies

3: "The truth is, we have a whole generation of young people who have been ignored by governments who are using immigration as a tool to bolster a failing economy."

Free movement of the workforce has got nothing whatsoever to do with the British Government – the practice is part and parcel of being an EU member state. What we have is a whole generation of young people who have somehow got it into their minds that the world must operate and revolve round them pandering to their every perceived need and demand – unfortunately life isn't actually like that. We also have a whole generation of young people who have been brought up by their parents to believe that it is acceptable for them to weigh up the balance of life on benefits (Which they have never contributed to) versus working at whatever job is available then choosing which pays best – Wake up smell the coffee IT ISN'T – If you want to gain some working experience or if you want to acquire a work ethic then first you have to do some bloody work.


4: "Alex Salmond says he will increase immigration, but that will not work, a start must be made on training our young people, even if the rest of society are forced to take a hit in the process."

Just to make ends meet the Government of Scotland will have to attract and allow at least 500,000 more migrant workers into the country to work in both public and private sectors – They need the tax revenue and the national insurance contributions that allowing these people in to the country to work will eventually generate. No point in training "your" young people if those young people do not want to be trained and are only going to consider well paid jobs on their doorstep. You make decisions that directly affect your life with regard to increasing the options that will be open to you. Restrict yourself too much and all that is left is what is available and you take it – but sitting at home on benefits is not and should not be an option.


5: "If we force our youth to rot on minimal benefits and do not provide a viable future for them, we are simply storing up trouble for the future."

The only people forcing "our youth to rot on minimal benefits" are those youths themselves, their parents and people such as yourself – The State does not owe you, me, or anybody else a living.

6: "Independence first, then we can make the politicians dance to our tune."

Care to tell us how? The politicians you elect will do the same as politicians the world over do. They will con you into voting for them and they will then do all they can to keep hold of the power they have just acquired – You the voter and any of your wishes doesn't even enter the equation after that, until the next election when they con you again – easy to do because people like yourself and Musket are "traditional" voters (Musket admitting for voting for the Party of Blair twice and Broon once – even inspite of the clear evidence of damage they were doing to the country as a whole, apparently nothing would induce him to vote any other way).

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:41 AM

Al. You miss my point completely. Akenaton was complaining that no matter what you do, you're stuffed.

I go out of my way to ensure the youth of today doesn't listen to such attitudes. We already have three sometimes four generations of families who have never had work. But you know what? The coincidence of it all being not for the want of trying is beyond reason. If you listen to doom mongers, you are impressed by them.

You are right about the past. At my school, it was the pit, Batchelors or Co-op glassworks for the boys, Bairnswear for the girls. The careers teacher hadn't the vision to look beyond.

By bringing out my own experiences, I am not perpetuating privilege, I'm not even trying some old rags to riches shit, I'm saying that blaming governments for situations can only go so far. It amazes me how everybody thinks governments are effective at bad things and incompetent at good things. You can't have it both ways.

No such thing as Tory. No such thing as Labour. You vote, you get the government. Whether you make what you can out of life is as much down to yourself and those who put themselves forward as role models for you as much as policies decided a couple of hundred miles away.

It isn't about you, me or Akenaton. It's about encouraging people to do something about their lives rather than accept the lazy option of blaming politicians.

Scotland won't do better or worse by removing a layer of legislative decision making yet poor ignorant chumps such as Akenaton are taken in by weasely worded jingoistic claptrap from politicians, who prove their point by blaming err... Politicians.

I'm rather saddened to see you falling for political jam tomorrow. Yes, the present Conservative party is dangerous, especially post reshuffle and yes, Labour do not seem fit or ready to form a government yet.

But worrying about it just gives them influence they don't actually have... I've held positions where I have seen how deluded they are about their influence. The NHS in England alone has a million patient to clinician decisions each and every day, yet a junior minister sits agonising how much their decisions really change things. My time as an advisor was short because, in so many words, I kept saying "fuck all difference minister, just like your predecessor and probably like your successor." Not the best way of keeping your post...

If it helps I can either waffle endlessly about the bailiff telling us we could keep the pram or pushchair but not both, or how I was knocking on doors trying to sell "maintenance chemicals" on commission only with fuck all sales and a family. I decided to get off my arse instead.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

I tink w all admire the many achievements of Musket. he is obviously a man of great resourceful ness and ability. well done to him. I can't imagine anyone with his lowly origins not being proud and contented with all that his career has encompassed.

but lets face it Ian. you are being less than honest with yourself about the present situations. its not good for lots of people.

I remember the first time I did a days supply teaching at a comp in Hucknall - . about 86. I was stuck at home - couldn't gig, after my hit record as Denise was too ill. i'd tried running a recording studio - but the technology moved too fast for anyone to keep affording.

my first day - and at break time. I was saying to another teacher how nice the kids were, the last teaching I had done was in Newtown , Brum. after big city kids -they were a delight.

this teacher said to me. oh yes the kids are lovely here. the only problem is, after the third year - they know they're going down the mines and the girls know they're going to marry a miner. and it is REALLY difficult to interest them in anything.

there are so many parts of England where education isn't really part of the traditional warp and weft of working class life. and presumably - you know all this Musket -its where you come from.

you aren't being priced out of a job by someone living in a shed. its buggered up wages for farm workers for years, England traditionally has a low wage economy. its not easy for people.

maybe its easy for tories getting cheap labour. and that's why Scotland needs desperately needs to get rid of the bastards, get them off their backs. we could do worse ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM

Interesting use of the word "our."

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:41 AM

Most of the migrants working in this area are single men, here because they can earn three or four times what they can in Eastern Europe....they live in communal dwellings and send almost all their money back to their families.
The guys I spoke to say they have saved enough in 8 years to build a house in Poland.
A married man in Scotland could not live, never mind build a house on the wage rates quoted.
The truth is, we have a whole generation of young people who have been ignored by governments who are using immigration as a tool to bolster a failing economy.
Alex Salmond says he will increase immigration, but that will not work, a start must be made on training our young people, even if the rest of society are forced to take a hit in the process.

If we force our youth to rot on minimal benefits and do not provide a viable future for them, we are simply storing up trouble for the future.
However, if the problem is left in the hands of Westminster governments, there is no hope of future change, just more of the medicine we have been swallowing for decades.

Independence first, then we can make the politicians dance to our tune.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Yeah, I'm alright. So are those who you reckon are watching life go by but in actual fact are getting on, contributing and enjoying.

You have it in for migrants doing the jobs others won't do? For someone who claims to work hard, you seem to want everybody else to have it easy.

Your young people have every opportunity, same as young people everywhere else. Scotland's economy is picking up slightly after the jitters earlier in the year when employers and investors thought independence might accidentally happen. The latest figures were published this morning. For those who can't "get on" Scotland has the highest per capita social bill of any measured region in Europe.

You are right. It seems the majority aren't mad after all....

Whether I am alright or not is irrelevant. Telling all and sundry they are doomed isn't alright. There are enough people sat in their underwear watching Cash in the Attic without convincing people that's all there is. You damn parts of society and tell the rest that they can't control their destiny. You are a right barrel of fucking laughs...

You haven't done too badly out of investors yourself if you are a local builder round your parts. Many local shops that elderly people rely on are still there because of the holiday lets down the street, not because your wonderful Scottish politicians have cohesive community strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:56 AM

Plenty of work in this area, most of it done by single Poles or Eastern Europeans living in sheds and being paid under the minimum wage....Economic migrants.

Our own young people who want to marry, have a family, buy a house, have no equality of opportunity. Houses are out of reach for most even if they could get a mortgage.

What do they do? some live with their parents, some drift off to the city, live in rented accommodation and watch life passing them by.

But fuck them Ian, you're alright, so all is well with the world.

We must be mad to want independence!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM

Funny that.

The jobs are, according to the Scottish government, increasingly in the tourist trade. The incentives are for inward investment in that industry. Highlands even have covenants on many cottages for sale that they are only for short term holiday lets!

Yeah, your wonderful "once free of Westminster" SNP are my biggest fans it would appear. The ones I completed on in Fife last week? Local builders are awaiting my people to ask for bids. Each and every house has had at least three companies visit them prior to bidding for the refurbishment work I am offering. Cards from cleaners and other domestic services are clogging up the hallways.

If you want to look at bad landlords, instead of attacking those propping the country up, look at Dundee Council. They are worth a whole series of BBC Panaroma......

Funny how real Scottish people roll out the red carpet? Even in your own locality.

The demise of living locally is cyclic. I left the Derbyshire village I was born in, then left the mining town I served my apprenticeship in. You can't live on nostalgia. Following the money has been a constant since the stone ages. Where I come from, we have the caves to prove it.

Pricing people out of the housing market is a problem. So is lack of work. Holiday lets in nice geographic areas is at worst neutral, at best encouraging infrastructure.

Popular? I'm more popular than you for starters. I judge everyone on personal merit rather than wondering what they use their arse for. I encourage people to get on rather than whinge (hitting the wrong target) about how we are all doomed. Doomed I say!

Go and play with your friends on the bishop thread I created. You found a whole new set of admirers there with no help whatsoever. {chortle}

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM

Ian, Every empty or holiday let property you have, contributes to the difficulty experienced by our young folk in obtaining a house, to live in and carry out their employment from.

You and your ilk are a blight on this country.
You and your ilk are not as popular in rural as you seem to imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:36 AM

Now then, you daft twat, where in anything I have written have I said anything even remotely stating that?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:27 AM

So everyone who set up businesses in a certain time frame is supporting the government of the time?

You are a weird fucker...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:12 AM

"I got my business going in the days of.. {name any party / leader for UK / USA /Italy / Germany / France / Ireland / Singapore from 1989 onwards.}" - Musket

That was the BFC's reply to my statement:

"Ah got your start and your business or businesses going during the Thatcher and Major years,

Now let me see Musket:

Margaret Thatcher - Prime Minister from 1979 to 1990
John Major - Prime Minister from 1990 to 1997

So according to your own trumpet blowing it would appear Musket that I was perfectly correct in stating what I did - Or are you too stupid to realise that? YOU DAFT TWAT (Your pet phrase - not mine).

I then went on to say that you:

"had made enough to grin and bear it during the catastrophic period of Boom-n-Bust of Blair-n-Broon."

Again according to you, you sold your business/businesses and then went into property, by this stage you have everything paid off so you are either living off your wife's income, or off your own investment income and pensions both Government and Private, so I would say that it would be extremely easy for you to work without pay (after all a mans has got to do something even in retirement), might cost you too much to do otherwise - Again I was correct in what I stated you had made enough to survive the catastrophic Labour Governments (1997 to 2010) that you voted for, Gordon Brown f**ked the old aged pensions of everyone in the country, but that wouldn't bother you would it - because you had made enough - So I was correct again - If anyone has demonstrated the characteristics of a DAFT TWAT it's yourself.

The shocking state of the near terminal NHS is nothing to brag about, and the thought of you teaching anybody anything makes me shudder. You appear to be the sort who would deliberately and maliciously set things down the road to destruction just to see the crash.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:39 PM

Der Fuhrer (SNP) mitaus oberlippenbart "Alex Salmond" heute appeared on mein fernvoyoure mit keine necktie and flustered to give his boring flat denials to everything and anything anyone suggested was ein problem.
Gott in Himmel would you vote such ein manns ideas.
BTW what happened to our taxi driver humourist
BTW2 Al, would igloos not be a more appropriate than hotels in case Scotland ends up out in the cold. :<}

B V Richthofen (smiling)

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

And a coo flew bye!!

Absentee landlord socialist!.....now there's a label to conjure with.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

You should be stripped of your fucking keyboard. That would be a positive step..

I got my business going in the days of.. {name any party / leader for UK / USA /Italy / Germany / France / Ireland / Singapore from 1989 onwards.}

The three of us who got it going created over 4,000 permanent decent pay jobs, and those who bought us out, or partly in my case, have added another 6,000+ jobs. Many in The UK.

For the last ten years, I have waived fees and salary for my NHS and Dept of Health work, donating in effect over £1.2million back into NHS care. I still carry out academic work pro bono, but have just stopped my other work in disgust at Jeremy Hunt's stewardship.

What have you done other than whinge about those who contribute rather than moan, as we seem to be getting our cocks out on the table?

Daft twat.

If it weren't for post war labour governments, you wouldn't have the cerebral process to form views. Education can be wasted you know...

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

"I'm a socialist who has never voted anything other than Labour to date." - Musket

Ah got your start and your business or businesses going during the Thatcher and Major years, had made enough to grin and bear it during the catastrophic period of Boom-n-Bust of Blair-n-Broon.

Taking into account the Labour Party's track record in government since the end of the Second World War I would say that anyone who confessed to being a repeat Labour voter could be considered totally irresponsible and should be stripped of their right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

ha ha a socialist who would prefer a Tory Westminster government than a independent Scotland which would have the chance of a Labour government. Definitely Nigel Farage in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

Yeah, I smoke, don't understand economics and want to be out of Europe... If that keeps guest happy.

Although Musket has urges to set off fire extinguishers in the face of smokers, has been a government advisor on aspects of commerce in certain sectors and is a non executive director of companies he used to run in Germany, Italy and France. Probably got more Euros than Sterling if I broke the piggy bank and counted.

Naw, not Farage.. Fascism may deliver nicely pressed shirts and sensible haircuts but the detail I leave to crypto fools such as Akenaton.

In fact, I'm a socialist who has never voted anything other than Labour to date. Not afraid to vote otherwise but there you go

Who is the guest who thinks I am a racist neo fascist then? You see, Farage is to the right of the American Tea Party and anyone who voted for him is dangerous with a voting card.

What this has to do with a region of The UK, I don't know. The good people of Scotland gave Farage a less than friendly welcome the other month, I believe...

Except perhaps one Loch monster, who happily puts liberal and fascist in the same phrase. If someone can give him a second book to crayon in, he might start linking some other words too.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

Thanks, Al, I KNEW he was Nigel Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

'Mr Farage is intelligent and lucid'

no he's a crafty populist. his truths are simplistic. complex problems reduced to a reduction ad absurdum. mind you, you could say the same for Maggie and her shopping basket. and all that Falklands flag waving bullshit, that made patriotism a dirty word.

I agree with you that Scotland has not been served well by Westminster, and needs to be run with a greater degree of self interest. the same could be said for other parts of England.

but Farage is not your boy - look at the title of his party -that's a clue!

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

GUEST guest..... no, Mr Farage is intelligent and lucid.

He also appears to live in the REAL world.....a case of mistaken identity I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:56 PM

GUEST...I don't really know why you are railing against me, I more or less agree with what you are saying regarding the demolition of society.

What side am I on?.....Hmm there are no sides, there are the rulers and the serfs. We have been trying to fight then for centuries, yet they keep consolidating while we get progressively weaker.

Small is beautiful, the bigger the union of nation states, the easier they are to control and manipulate......Just look at the EU.

Who ever thought the hard right would be fighting for democracy?
Radicals to the left and to the right are protesting about "liberal fascism"

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:24 PM

Is Musket really Nigel Farage?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

We are not equal, we are not even born equal

We've known that Ake isn't equal to the task of interpreting reality for many years now. Or his own arse (or perhaps elbow).

Real "inequalities" of course as any real human recognises, are not the obvious ones. The grossly overpaid mutually validating big nobs of companies or public concerns are self-evidently lower than cockroaches. Butler bloody Sloss? Heads an inquiry when she's been recorded as biased against exposure of child abuse?

Put that shower of shit against the everyday people who are trying to bring up families on a hundredth of their rakeoff in the face of a shifting, devaluing job market and progressive withdrawal of all that made society cohesive for the last seventy years.

So which do you do: tug the forelock, or expect others to do it to you? Which side are you on, acky, which side are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM

If rationality is defined as seeing others as inferior, I'm proud to be disturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM

Al you find Ian's words disturbing, because he is a disturbed individual. He is completely ruled by an equality agenda which is simply a myth.
We are not equal, we are not even born equal, but we do have different individual qualities and failings.
Ian does not disturb me, he can call me what he likes, it has absolutely no effect. I have seen his kind a thousand times in my life, they would not recognise rationality if it rose and bit them on the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

I kept the elbow pads that stopped me slipping on the cobbles in the rain.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

I was the one in '52 he keeps quiet about.

Ahhhh, that one. Did you have the mattress removed when you got the other bits added?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it normal. Doesn't make it respectable.

Doesn't make it inclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

the trouble is Musket, that there a lot of people with weird views. you think rationalism will always prevail - try reading the average Muslim kids essay on homosexuality, abortion, etc.

my old man was a copper in the days when policemen staked out the bogs in the park to catch men and women cottaging. you can imagine his views on the liberalisation of the laws forbidding homosexuality. all kinds of circumstances can lead to you having contrary views.

you can't just cut these people out of the fabric of society. and cutting up rough - well its just a blind alley which leads only to despair.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM

"We were, and I believe still are, a separate nation with separate history, separate culture and sense of national identity."

Absolutely, and one of the big mistakes of the UK is to deny the fact the home nations are not homogenous. That said, the same is true of the regions of all the home nations to a lesser degree as well.

The thing is, Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland have very strong cultural and national identities, with the majority of the English* occupying some hinterland of confusion about who they are. The culture and identity of the home nations are no longer under threat from a central government; their uniqueness is threatened by the homogeny of the corporate jackboot and the apathy of the populace that brings with it. Anyhow, the Scots are a feisty bunch and I don't fear for any long-term erosion of identity etc. I believe that Scotland is in no danger of ever finding its own culture under threat from anyone else on these islands.

However, our history is most certainly NOT separate, it's just that our actual history rarely fits in with any nationalist narrative, of any country. The threads of our culture, identity and history are and always have been intertwined in a most intimate and subtle way. We are genetically identical, and for most of our history as a people on these islands we have not had nations and borders, but were a multi-faceted collection of tribes that had more in common than they did apart. The imposing of borders was a disaster for us all in a sense, as it began the splitting of a creative and vibrant people along lines that suited the elite rather than us, the ordinary folk.

*I say "the majority of English" because I'm sure that as folk musicians we often have a far better handle on our respective cultures and identities than the general population. We sing the songs, tell the stories and keep the flame of our culture burning, albeit very quietly in the case of the English.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

Yes. I have been trained in speaking with such people during my time inspecting prisons and forensic mental health units. I wouldn't call it disturbing. Dismissive and reluctant maybe.

You read how he speaks of sections of society, you read of his dismissal of anything English as being the blame for whatever he seems to want to moan about..

And you think my rebuttal of his creed is disturbing?

When he can speak with a civil tongue, he will get one back.

Dave. I was the one in '52 he keeps quiet about. I was pre op and society had issues accepting us in those days sweetie.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

let me put it more bluntly - I find the way you talk to him disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: Gutcher
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:42 AM

As to that sink of iniquity, Westminster, regular revalations put it on a par with the court of Louise X1V of France. This is what all Empires in decline have come to throughout recorded history and the reactions of a prolific poster on this thread are symptomatic of the death throes of that empire.                                       

I for one welcome the opportunity to become detached from the sordid machinations of such a regime.

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

"Big governments are needed to stand up to big multinationals." :0)

Is that another one of your "piss takes" Ian?

The bigger the government, the bigger and more numerous the multinationals.   The multinationals are integral to the system, the governments are incidental.

Scotland is a brand in its own right. The world wants what we produce.
We could be one of the most prosperous nations on earth and use that prosperity to further a socialist agenda, rather than to wage war, or rob our poorest folks in the cause of "globalism".

Subject: RE: BS: lets develop Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:27 AM

Ian, your lack of comprehension obviously extends to "folk music" :0)

"Your aspirations may be whatever they are, but I doubt anybody told a careers teacher they aspired to sitting in their underpants watching Jeremy Kyle. Yet many adults, as exemplified by Akenaton, seem to be happy letting kids look forward to such an existence. Drugs help the numbing experience of watching it, apparently."

If that is a response to what I have posted, I do not see the connection.

The type of society created by Mrs Thatcher and Blair, the destruction of our manufacturing capability, the "parking" of the victims on long term benefits, the dependency on monopoly money and financial services, the betrayal of the original purpose of the NHS, by filling it with pen pushing drones, short term political thinking for paper profits, etc, etc, has resulted in the debris we see all over the UK.......to do nothing is not an option we cannot allow future generations to vanish into oblivion as a large percentage of the last generation has done.

The worship of money does not work, only providing satisfaction to those with the capability to switch off the empathy gene, carry a couple of aces up their sleeve....and have complete disregard for the future of our grandchildren.

Thanks Al.