BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM

long on assertiveness, but somewhat short in intellectual content or argument.

Amusingly, he accuses others, mostly me, of not debating properly.
He thinks it unfair to produce evidence to support your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:33 AM

This e mail is being circulated to churches and reached mine.
I can not verify it but see no reason to think it fake.

From: [e-mail]
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: 20/09/2014 18:52:42 GMT Daylight Time
Subj: Urgent Prayer Needed




Dear All,
I have received these two emails from our missionary friends, one yesterday and one this morning. I just wanted to pass it on so that as many people as possible can pray specifically for our brothers and sisters. Much love and blessings

This is so sad...
A friend just got a text message from her brother asking her to shower him and his parish in prayer. He is part of a mission and ISIS has taken over the town they are in today. He said ISIS is systematically going house to house to all the Christians and asking the children to denounce Jesus. He said so far not one child has. And so far all have consequently been killed. But not the parents. The UN has withdrawn and the missionaries are on their own. They are determined to stick it out for the sake of the families - even if it means their own deaths. He is very afraid, has no idea how to even begin ministering to these families who have seen their children martyred. Yet he says he knows God has called him for some reason to be his voice and hands at this place at this time. Even so, he is begging prayers for his courage to live out his vocation in such dire circumstances. And like the children    accept martyrdom if he is called to do so. She asked me to ask everyone we know to please pray for them. These brave parents instilled such a fervent faith in their children that they chose martyrdom. Please surround them in their loss with your prayers for hope and perseverance.

She was able to talk to her brother briefly by phone. She didn't say it but I believe she believes it will be their last conversation. Pray for her too. She said he just kept asking her to help him know what to do and do it. She told him to tell the families we ARE praying for them and they are not alone or forgotten -- no matter what. Her e mail broke my heart. Please keep all in your prayers. Thanks

This came this morning... Just a few minutes ago I received the following text message on my phone from Sean Malone who leads Crisis Relief International (CRI). We then spoke briefly on the phone and I assured him that we would share this urgent prayer need with all of our contacts.

"We lost the city of Queragosh (Qaraqosh). It fell to ISIS and they are beheading children systematically. This is the city we have been smuggling food too. ISIS has pushed back Peshmerga (Kurdish forces) and is within 10 minutes of where our CRI team is working. Thousands more fled into the city of Erbil last night. The UN evacuated it's staff in Erbil. Our team is unmoved and will stay. Prayer cover needed!"

Please pray sincerely for the deliverance of the people of Northern Iraq from the terrible advancement of ISIS and its extreme Islamic goals for mass conversion or death for Christians across this region. May I plead with you not to ignore this email.

Do not forward it before you have prayed through it. Then send it to as many people as possible. Send it to friends and Christians you may know. Send it to your prayer group. Send it to your pastor and phone him/her to pray on Sunday during the service - making a special time of prayer for this. We need to stand in the gap for our fellow Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:43 AM

Ian: No -- I shower every day and quite a lot of my years have passed.
Grasp some of your points now & again; but find your enigmatic gnomic utterances ofttimes make little communication.
When that happens, I usually download a cryptic crossword, one of my main pastimes nowadays. Beats Mudcat most of the time.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:49 AM

So now the 'Cat is a forum for passing on chain letters?

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:54 AM

If the christians could also show concern for the vast majority of people caught up, that'd be a start.
They do.
For example,

Christian Aid in Iraq

Our work

We work across the Middle East, with programme work spanning Egypt, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), Iraq and Lebanon, and we are responding to the Syrian humanitarian crisis.

We began working in the Middle East in the 1950s, supporting the Middle East Council of Churches' assistance to Palestinian refugees.

Discrimination

Our Iraq programme was set up in the early 1990s, initially in response to the impact of the attacks against the Kurdish population in the north and the crisis emerging after the Gulf War. In 2013, our Syria emergency response programme was expanded to include work inside Syria through an ACT sister agency.

Discrimination and exclusion take many forms in the Middle East. Gender discrimination is widespread, and national and ethnic discrimination are prevalent, with Palestinians and Kurds both denied statehood and the right to self-determination. Refugees and migrants are particularly vulnerable, given their exclusion from protection and many official social provisions.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatwedo/middle-east/iraq.aspx?Page=2

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM

"We"??

Gosh. Can I have your autograph?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:52 AM

Who said we?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:56 AM

Oh I see.
That was a piece from Christian Aid website.
A quote, silly.
You have made that mistake before!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:26 PM

I also got that email, Keith, at least two weeks ago. What is so horrible about it is that it concentrates on "Christians" in the middle east. All those Iraqi children who died thanks to sanctions in the 90s and those hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the 2000s, not to speak of the horrors gone through by the imprisoned people of Gaza - not a mention. Where were these supplicants then, I ask myself. As for this bit: Send it to friends and Christians you may know. Send it to your prayer group. Send it to your pastor and phone him/her to pray on Sunday during the service - making a special time of prayer for this. We need to stand in the gap for our fellow Christians. - it's disgusting and just a wee bit racist. And thoroughly unchristian.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM

Looks like not all the bible-banger missionaries were boiled in the pot, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:46 PM

While that may well apply to the Arab states in the region it most certainly does not apply to the state of Israel, which is a democracy albeit one that has existed as a democracy under constant threat of attack and annihilation since the date of its inception.

Perhaps Israel would be a somewhat finer "democracy" if it refrained from serial invasions of its neighbours' sovereign territories, from referring to itself as the Jewish state when a very large minority of its citizens are not Jewish, from imprisoning hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, without charge, from dividing the land of Palestinian families going back hundreds of years with an apartheid wall, from setting up remote-control sniper fire aimed across the Gaza border with children in its sights, from stealing all the best Palestinian land (shades of Smith's Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa there) for illegal settlements, from detaining Palestinians (but never Israeli Jews) at checkpoints without cause for up to three days...and let's not even get started on what they do in Gaza every couple of years, not to speak of the blockade. You make an implied excuse for Israel's imperfect democracy. So let's hear you making excuses, point by point if you don't mind, for the lapses referred to in my little litany. And perhaps you might reflect on which of the points in my litany the UK could get away with and still call itself a democracy. Not a one, I'd suggest. But perhaps you have a few excuses up your sleeve as to why we should hold Israel to a far lower standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

1: "Perhaps Israel would be a somewhat finer "democracy" if it refrained from serial invasions of its neighbours' sovereign territories"

What serial invasions? Do you mean the ones mounted in defence of their own territory? Please let me know if I am in error in recalling the following

(A) "On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine". In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the UN General Assembly, the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem ... the last to be under an International Trusteeship System". On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II). The Plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the Report of 3 September 1947.

The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, ACCEPTED THE PLAN, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine REJECTED IT. On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets."

(B) "On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel. The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War"

(C) "After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip."

Now please note Mr. Shaw in all of that there is not one single mention of Tosser Arafat's "invention" and "creation" - i.e. "Palestinians"

Now please show me a map whether it be from Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or from the Palestine Authority that clearly shows the borders of this so-called sovereign territory of "theirs" and where the borders of the sovereign state of Israel are. Don't sweat too much on that Steve because no such map exists, so much for Arabs wanting a "Two State" Solution (They don't) IF they win then Israel is wiped from the map and the Jewish population will be annihilated.


2: "from referring to itself as the Jewish state when a very large minority of its citizens are not Jewish"

I do not think that they do refer to themselves as the Jewish State - That was terminology transferred from the Peel Commission Report of 1937 and from the 1947 UN Plan.

3: As for:
a: "imprisoning hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, without charge"
b: "dividing the land of Palestinian families going back hundreds of years with an apartheid wall"
c: "setting up remote-control sniper fire aimed across the Gaza border with children in its sights" Never heard of that one, but ask anyone who lived in Berlin - they lived with something similar to that for decades.
d: "stealing all the best Palestinian land (shades of Smith's Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa there) for illegal settlements" Basically Bullshit.
e: "detaining Palestinians (but never Israeli Jews) at checkpoints without cause for up to three days" - Probably because Israeli Jews are not attempting to kidnap and kill Israeli citizens?
f: "what they do in Gaza every couple of years, not to speak of the blockade." - Oh by all means let's, Israel unilaterally withdrew entirely from Gaza on the understanding that no further attacks would be mounted on Israel or it's population from Gaza. The attacks continued, to date tens of thousands of missiles, rockets and mortars have been fired indiscriminately into Israeli centres of population - Eh Steve Israel does have the right to defend itself from attack, and not to labour the glaringly obvious - If someone is firing missiles, rockets and mortars at you by the tens of thousands - You old son are under attack - and your best course of action is to do something about it

Now during the First and Second World Wars did the western democracies of France and Great Britain detain people without charge as a security measure? Was land requisitioned and were people forced to vacate their properties (Large chunks of Dorset are still retained in MOD hands), not to mention the disgraceful treatment that the Chagos Islanders have received at the hands of the British Government.

IF the "Palestinians" want all of the above to become things of the past then let the "Palestinians" just for once try peace as opposed to war - They are not going to defeat the Israelis they are not going to drive the Israelis into the sea, they are not going to wipe the stain of Israel from Arab soil - High time after 66 years they woke up to those facts - The Arabs chose to go to war, they lost (repeatedly), you seem to have no problems with Arabs invading, occupying and annexing land in time of war so I am sorry to tell you Mr. Shaw that that particular saw cuts both ways and until the Arabs are prepared to sit down and discuss borders then there is no such thing as an "illegal" settlement because there are no agreed borders.

If you want to compare "lower standards" Mr Shaw would you care to take a look at Israels neighbours in the region?

Egypt: Military Dictatorship since Nasser's coup in 1952. It was the driving force behind most anti-Israeli activity between 1952 and 1979 when Egypt made peace with Israel and that peace has held ever since.

Jordan: Weird sort of "constitutional Monarchy" with a two house system of representatives. The King holds extensive executive and legislative powers and while the lower house of representatives is democratically elected the upper chamber is totally selected by the King. Of all of Israel's neighbours Jordan is least objectionable. They made peace with Israel in 1994 and that peace has held.

Syria: Well now Steve what can I say - an absolute hell hole. Bashar al-Assad's father killed his own people in the tens of thousands - Bashar has killed them in the hundreds of thousands. {Some figures for you Steve in 66 years some 115,078 people have been killed in Arab-Israeli conflicts 21% have been Israeli soldiers and civilians [That works out at roughly five per day] - compared to 260,215 in three and a half years in Syria [And that works out at roughly 204 per day] }

Lebanon: Like "Palestine" Lebanon was set up to be a multicultural, multi-ethnic and multi-religious haven in the region. But the arrival of "Palestinians" in 1948 and in 1970 screwed things up a bit. Perhaps the Lebanese should have let those refugees integrate instead of imprisoning them in camps. Independent in 1943, Arab-Israeli War in 1948, armed insurrection in 1958, civil war in 1975 {Lasted 15 years with ~150,000-odd killed in that one Steve}, Syrian occupation from 1976 until 2005, Reprisal raids by Israel resulting from PLO & Hezbollah attacks on Israel in 1982 and in 2006. Since then conflicts both internal and external have torn the country apart and it now exists as a bomb just waiting to explode - absolute paradise compared to Israel eh Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM

I'm sure that when my farm was dry and crops failing because Israel took all the water first, that I too would read that waffle and say "fair enough."

Mind you, my neighbour thinks there is another way to stop a foreign country starving us of natural resources.

I wonder if anybody else has any chain letters they wish to share? You can get all self righteous and indignant as intelligent people dismiss them out of hand. Christian Aid were working in a village in Kenya a few years ago when I went out to advise a different NGO on aspects of infrastructure. An offshoot of Red Crescent were there too. Whilst Christian Aid and the Red Crescent lot were arguing where to put the new church and new mosque, ITDG were more interested in irrigation, building strong homes and getting s school going before either set of God botherers decided to build one.

Possibly what tipped me from indifference to viewing superstition as a stain on society.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 05:00 AM

What is so horrible about it is that it concentrates on "Christians" in the middle east.

No Steve.
It is from people in the middle of it describing their own experience to friends and asking to be prayed for.
What is horrible about that?
Did you not actually read it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 07:54 AM

Israel is a Jewish state, and this is primarily in a national sense -- similar to the way that Arab states are Arab, Chinese states are Chinese, etc. Many atheists have a Jewish identity and/or support the existence of a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 08:16 AM

I'd dearly love to know what water Israel took first Musket.

The aquifers that exist inside the old mandate of Palestine show that only the Coastal Aquifer lies inside Israel while the Northern, Western, Eastern and Mountain Aquifers all lie inside the West Bank.

Israel gets the bulk of its water from the Sea of Galilee and that is pumped via the Israeli National Water Carrier Pipeline throughout the country.

The solution to the regions water problems lie in financing the construction of infrastructure such as water treatment facilities and desalination plants. Water problems in the region as a whole result from poor management and the natural consequences of large numbers of people living in a semi-arid area - it is not because, or the result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Only thing is to provide water to the Palestinians involves giving them money with which to solve the problem. Give money to the Palestinians either in Gaza or in Ramallah and you can guarantee that not one brass razoo will be spent on improving the water supply - it will go into a Swiss Bank Account belonging to one of the "leaders" of the poor Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:30 PM

Nice load of bluster, Teribus, but it was all designed, as even the average thickie here (like me) could discern, to dishonestly divert from my question to you. What excuses do you have for Israel's bad behaviour, the sort of stuff that would never be tolerated here: pointless road blocks, land theft, serial incursions ("defence" my arse!) into neighbouring sovereign territory, the apartheid wall, the slaughter of innocent women and children, hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets left all over southern Lebanon to blow off the legs of kiddies (nice one!), the white phosphorus, the blockade, remote sniper fire killing children...? Which one of those would the UK get away with and still be able to call itself a democracy? Why can't you answer, please? Because you're a mug who buys fully into the self-assumed mantle of victimhood espoused by successive Israeli regimes? And don't give me that withdrawal-from-Gaza-with-conditions revisionist guff. You know damn well that that is not why Sharon, God rot him, decamped from Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:52 AM

Bluster Mr Shaw? I have provided hard facts that happen to be a matter of record. I notice that you do not dispute a single one - you were after all requested by me to do so where applicable.

If actions taken by an internationally recognised sovereign government in self-defence and actions taken in order to ensure the safety of its civilian population can be termed as "bad behaviour" then so many are guilty that the term becomes meaningless as they represent the norm.

In Israel's case the country has been under threat of attack or under actual attack since it's independence was declared on the 14th May 1948. Threaten any nation or any people with annihilation and generally that will be laughed off as a joke. Not so with the Jews and Israel primarily as down through history precisely that has been tried wherever they have settled ever since they were driven from their homeland. No joke to them, they take it deadly seriously - if you threaten Israel or attack Israel then you do so in the full realisation that retribution will follow as certainly as night follows day.

"the sort of stuff that would never be tolerated here" If here is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland then I have given you instances and detailed the circumstances under which such stuff has not only tolerated here but actively encouraged and supported by the vast majority of the population of the Kingdom.

As for a mug that has swallowed a line of complete and utter bullshit please contradict my assessment of the desire for a Two State Solution on the part of those representing the "Palestinians" - show me the borders of these two states as perceived by the "Palestinians".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:42 AM

serial incursions ("defence" my arse!) into neighbouring sovereign territory,

Right Steve.
Give us an example of a non-defensive one since 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:45 AM

Would you like some examples of non-defensive incursions into the sovereign state of Israel since 1948?
There are plenty of those.
Why do you never criticise them Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

I wonder why you people think it more important to attack Israel than discuss the subject of the thread!
This is what UN said about IS today.

"GENEVA — The conflict in Iraq has killed and wounded at least 26,000 civilians this year, with the toll accelerating in recent weeks as Islamic State fighters sought to expand their control of parts of northern Iraq, the United Nations reported Thursday.

The casualty count includes 9,343 people killed from January to the end of September, the United Nations said in a joint report by its mission in Iraq and its human rights office in Geneva, which emphasized that the figures were "absolute minimums."

More than 5,500 deaths have occurred since the offensive by the Islamic State, also known as ISIS and ISIL, begun in June. Among the casualties were over 2,000 people slaughtered in mass executions and others killed in attacks that the United Nations said systematically targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure. The extremists' offensive has involved ethnic cleansing, abductions, rape, and other physical and sexual violence against women and children, the United Nations' human rights monitors said.


"The array of violations and abuses perpetrated by ISIL and associated armed groups is staggering, and many of their acts may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity," Zeid Ra'ad Zeid al-Hussein, the human rights chief, said in a statement

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM

"I wonder why you people think it more important to attack Israel than discuss the subject of the thread!"

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM

In Israel's case the country has been under threat of attack or under actual attack since it's independence was declared on the 14th May 1948.

Delusory. Israel has never been invaded since its inception. Yet Israel has invaded and/or annexed neighbouring territories on many occasions. Sinai. Negev villages. Gaza. All the best West Bank land. Lebanon. Golan Heights. Most of these incursions have had brutal consequences for thousands of innocent civilians. Let me rephrase your idiotic assertion: in Israel's neighbours' cases, they have been under attack, threat of attack, invasion, annexation or occupation since 1948. Always with consequences for innocent civilians that have far outweighed any injury to Israeli civilians (the deliberate policy of successive Israeli regimes).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:43 PM

Oy vey. It may not have been successfully invaded but it has certainly been threatened. No excuse for their behavior, but one can't say they aren't under threat.

Egypt's gonna get one too, just to use on you-know-who
So Israel's getting tense
Wants one in self-defense
The lord's our sheperd says the psalm
But just in case, we better get the bomb
Who's next...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 02:50 AM

OK then Mr.Shaw let us talk about Delusory shall we:

1: "Israel has never been invaded since its inception."

Israel declared itself independent on the 14th May 1948 (Its inception)
Arab Armies from Egypt; Jordan; Syria and Iraq invade Israel on the 15th May 1948
Result Arab armies defeated. Egypt and Jordan however occupy and annex parts of the former mandated territory of Palestine where they proceed to shut their fellow Arabs up in refugee camps - inconvenient truth that Mr.Shaw and like minded "useful fools" somehow completely manage to ignore {Pssst Mr.Shaw Jordan's intention during this first invasion was to take over the whole of the mandated territory of Palestine and drive the Jews into the sea - do some research and read up on the subject}

Between 1949 and 1956 Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon were used as bases from which the Fedayeen backed to the hilt by the governments of those countries raided and carried out attacks against Israel - Again Mr. Shaw simple matter of record if you would care to do the research.

In 1956 Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal closed both the canal and the Straits Tiran to Israeli shipping and vessels sailing to Israeli ports. This Mr.Shaw constitutes an act of war and Israel quite rightly responded to the threat. Egypt loses once again and in return for Gaza {Which it never had any right to in the first place} and the Sinai - Egypt agrees to freedom of navigation and demilitarisation of the Sinai Peninsula - This lasts of course only until 1967 when the Arabs once again break their promises and throw peace out the window again and threaten Israel with annihilation.

Six Day War Israel once again finds itself blockaded and threatened by the presence of five armies camped on it's borders. Israel mounts a pre-emptive attack and destroys the Air forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. This time when they take territory that was originally part of the former mandated territory of Palestine they hold onto it. They also hold onto territory belonging to their enemies just as the Egyptians and Jordanians did in 1948. The Israelis will now trade land for peace. The Arab leaders meet in Khartoum at the end of August 1967 and jointly issue their decree "That there should be no recognition, no peace, and no negotiations with the State of Israel" - Tell me Steve can you give any examples of such unequivocal language being used by Israel?

The Yom Kippur of 1973 was started with a two pronged attack on Israel by Egyptian and Syrian Forces. After initial Arab successes the Israelis go over onto the offensive sweep the Syrians from the Golan Heights and threaten Damascus and clear the Egyptians from the Sinai and drive over onto the west bank of the Suez Canal encircling the Egyptian Third Army around Suez. The Syrians and Egyptians agree to a ceasefire

In 1979 Egypt signs a peace treaty with Israel (Guess what Steve? Egypt has not attacked Israel since and Israel has not attacked Egypt).

In 1994 Jordan signs a peace treaty with Israel and guess what Steve? Jordan has not attacked Israel and Israel has not attacked Jordan - See any sort of trend here?

2: "Yet Israel has invaded and/or annexed neighbouring territories on many occasions. Sinai. Negev villages. Gaza. All the best West Bank land. Lebanon. Golan Heights. Most of these incursions have had brutal consequences for thousands of innocent civilians."

After the 1973 Yom Kippur War Syria still holds out but Syria on its own will not attack Israel the Syrian Army is good at killing unarmed civilians but against trained armed forces they do not fare so well, they know that and the Israelis know that. So Syria contents itself doing Iran's bidding acting as host to Hamas and as a supply conduit to Hezbollah both armed and financed by Iran. Iraq used to be in this equation but they were removed from the scene in 2003.

Since that reality has become accepted Israel has been subjected to missile and rocket attacks from both Southern Lebanon and from Gaza and from bombing attacks mounted from inside the West Bank. Incursions into South Lebanon and into Gaza and the building of the wall have reduced the effects of those attacks but had there been no attacks no incursions would have been carried out and no wall would have been built.

Yes Steve it is great that you realise that when leaders opt for war then there are consequences - brutal consequences if you lose. I would have thought that those Arab leaders, after 66 years of losing, might at least try some other approach, but they appear to be on a very slow learning curve with predictably brutal consequences and results.

3: "Always with consequences for innocent civilians that have far outweighed any injury to Israeli civilians (the deliberate policy of successive Israeli regimes)."

Ehmmmmm Steve, it is the duty and responsibility of any sovereign government to defend its territory and defend and guarantee the safety and security of it's citizens. This is not an exercise in equivalence, there is no rule that states if I kill 100 of yours you are only allowed to kill 100 of mine - the rule is that if you chose war then the other side is fully entitled to defend itself as best as it sees fit to stop and prevent you from ever attacking again. If I were a leader and every time I provoked an attack "my side" lost 2,000 and my "enemies side" only lost 79, "my side" suffered extensive destruction of vital infrastructure while my enemy was unscathed, then I would change my game plan wouldn't you? Until of course you view the tragedy as a casual observer and you realise that the leaders representing the "Palestinians" and the backers of the likes of Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah don't really give a flying F**K for the "Palestinians" - They never have, they never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:04 AM

Tell me, does UN have credibility now because of the united stand on ISIS or do they have credibility when they have a pop at Israel?

Talk about hypocritical posts...

In the meantime, ISIS have won a battle. See the Conservative party conference for details. Wanting to curb more human rights over here, playing to the tune of terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:41 AM

General Assembly Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:55 AM

Well said, T.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 12:58 PM

BRAVO!! Teribus!!..Well said, and concisely to the point!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 01:44 PM

Rarely attended them. Although I once got the cane at one in front of the whole house.

nice to see you have respect for UN after all, even if it is only when responsible decisions and views happen by chanve to suit your weird outlook on life.

🌽

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 02:13 PM

Musket: "nice to see you have respect for UN after all,..."

Let's not get TOO far ahead of yourself !!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:44 PM

Well said, and concisely to the point!

Bloody Nora, Guffers, "concisely"? he's one of the most wordy and repetitive (and bigoted) people here! That what happens to one when one is probably Bibi's uncle (Keith's Bibi's other uncle. Possibly his great-great uncle. You're not one of Bibi's uncles because you don't understand anything about anything). Grab yerself a dictionary and investigate "concise", Mr Mad!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:34 PM

Capital bloody aitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM

Oy vey. It may not have been successfully invaded but it has certainly been threatened. No excuse for their behavior, but one can't say they aren't under threat.

They are under threat because they are the most bellicose nation on the planet. They are not under threat because they are, as they wish to be defined, a nation of Jews. Let's not get suckered into buying into that victimhood thang. If you continually threaten, or more than threaten, your neighbours, you will feel threatened. One fine day the Jewish people of Israel will finally see that their successive regimes constantly put them, by their aggression towards neighbours, in harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 10:09 PM

It's amazing, what people will post in lieu of an intelligent post, responding to an intelligent post.

OK, we got it, Steve, you don't like Israel, you don't like Jews, and you don't like intelligent posts. You prefer ISIS and anyone who wants to wiped Israel off the map..which also means you must like Sharia law, over Israel's democracy...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 01:40 AM

Quite!

If you continually threaten, or more than threaten, your neighbours,.....

Israel does not.
It was invaded by five armies on the first day of its existence, and has only ever responded to attacks from outside.

What specific facts in Teribus' post do you not believe Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 02:05 AM

Steve -- what 'threats' do you perceive to have been uttered or implied; apart from "If you start on us, we will respond to whatever extent may be necessary to make you stop"? What "aggression towards neighbours" is occuring there?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 02:52 AM

Yeah yeah. If you find Israeli aggression repugnant you therefore support ISIS.

I don't find the post strange, after all it came from Goofus. It is those who try to convince us of their intelligence agreeing with it that I find odd.

The world other than US politicians bankrolled by Israeli interests find their attitude to neighbours to be the main cause of the backlash. It doesn't mean you have to be part of that defence of the indefensible. You can be objective if you really really try.

Unless we have found one of the lobby idiots who wander around Washington saying anything other than unconditional support for Israeli aggression is anti Semitic?

😱

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:58 AM

"The world other than US politicians bankrolled by Israeli interests...."

Ah yes, the old shibboleth that Jews control the US through it's politicians and by extension run the world through their control of the banks, newspapers etc. Let me remind you again that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a proven hoax.......put it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM

If you find Israeli aggression repugnant you therefore support ISIS.

Well, it IS strange that you always and only attack Israel, even on a thread dedicated to discussion of the most evil entity on Earth by a long way, and about which you have almost nothing to say.

Sorry, but it does suggest an irrational dislike of that country or its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM

...or in other words, what do those who oppose the existence of Israel, on here, propose?
any suggestions?..or are you just blowing hard??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:28 PM

Taking a break from the hate agenda:

I was just watching the BBC 2 Genesis, commenting on Phil Collins' thinking about Steve Beco, when it struck me that in many ways, Alan Henning may become the kind of iconic image for the decade. A man of the streets, with more than a bit of baggage, but also doing something right - which got out of control.

Does the act of how he was killed mean that the reality of the ordinary man can or should be disassociated from his virtue, or is it part of it? He was killed because an icon, his British citizenship, was put in front of his humanity: he was held when his colleagues, of Arabic ethnicity, were freed, in many ways making him a victim of reverse racism: his colleagues don't see him that way, he was one of them and they were part of him. It makes this us-and-them rather nonsense, in fact.

In killing him, therefore, the ISxx put themselves up against humanity. They iconised someone to whom that icon did not apply, (one can see elements of Inquisition tactics there: People's Front of Judea, Judean People's Front, how right the Pythons were! The Judean Popular People's Front, the Campaign for a Free Galilee...) and so made a valid martyr icon. It's so tempting to do unto them...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 08:37 PM

Daesh. Pronounced kinda like Dash.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:32 AM

It's the mental leaps that make debate here infantile.

So by criticising Israel you hate Israeli people? Yeah right. Perhaps the difference between you and I might just be that I do visit Israel, not as often as I used to but I do. I have friends there, good friends with views ranging from disgust at their government to quoting scripture regarding land grabs.

No I don't hate. Unlike you, I seem to have the ability to be objective. Perhaps, judging by the posts of some on here, if stems from a perspective of better understanding.

Mind you, even if I were as thick as some here, I would still have the advantage of agreement with most commentators.

Perhaps Keith would be happy if we ended each post with "and for balance here is a list of other countries whose foreign policy is suspect to say the least."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM

So by criticising Israel you hate Israeli people? Yeah right.

No, wrong.
No country is above criticism, least of all Israel.
All countries should be criticised.

I was commenting on people who ONLY criticise Israel while ignoring greater and worse misdeeds all around it.
Who even ignore the medieval barbaric evil of the Caliphate and just use it as another platform to attack Israel.

They always and only attack Israel, even on a thread dedicated to discussion of the most evil entity on Earth by a long way, and about which they have almost nothing to say.

Sorry, but it does suggest an irrational dislike of that country or its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:59 AM

Despite all the coalition air strikes, more ground is lost.
They have entered Kobane and it will soon be in their hands.
It is within easy range of the Turkish army on the border, but they have not intervened.
They did prevent Kurds from crossing the border to help Kobane.
Kurds accuse Turkey of colluding with IS against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 04:25 PM

Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM Steve Shaw wrote:

They are under threat because they are the most bellicose nation on the planet.

Bothered to check out North Korea, lately. You've posted overblown attacks on Israel (in a thread not devoted to Israel), some outright falsehoods, and when you've been responded to point-by-point (at your own request) you've resorted to ad-hominem attack. You are welcome to say what you want on Israel but this thread is not supposed to be about Israel, there were two others going strong a couple weeks ago.

Back to the Caliphate:
Is there any information on tactical reasons why IS is so successful. I heard a snatch of radio play indicating that IS had tanks and artillery, which apparently the Kurds do not have.
I am wondering out loud why solid targets like tanks and artillery can't be destroyed from the air, and I'm wondering why the Kurds can't get hold of some of those readily transportable anti-tank weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:50 PM

Well, just about every thread I ever start on the interwebbie gets hijacked and I'm pretty cheerful about it. You do not get to tell me what I can post on what thread, thanks. My posts are nearly always reactions to what someone else has posted, as it happens. I note that you do not go for the jugulars in quite the same way of your pro-Israeli allies who post here about Israel. Don't be so uncomfortably sensitive is my advice. While you're at it, I note that, oddly, you wish to widen the discussion still further to North Korea, so may I take this opportunity of asking you in what way North Korea has been bellicose towards its neighbours recently? Everything I can think of is wrong with that silly regime except for bellicosity towards its neighbours. Unless, of course, you count a few damp squibs fired into the ocean and think that words can hurt as much as sticks and stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM

You are welcome to say what you want on Israel but this thread is not supposed to be about Israel,

Yeah, except the machinations of the Israeli government, aided, abetted, and supported by the U.S. of A., has a great deal to do with creating the situation that is now being faced in the middle east.

Do look up "blowback", Robo.

Or not- just keep your head buried in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 07:19 PM

You are both, Steve and Greg F. masters of selective attention.