BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:37 AM

And for those involved in the blame game, whether there's "little doubt" in your mind or not - remember that Lockerbie happened 6 months after the US shot down an Iranian airliner.

Then after several years of legal procedures, most of which have now proven to have been faulty and/or corrupt and directly in breach of international law, Libya got the blame. Because someone needed them to be blamed.

As indeed someone had previously needed to blame Libya after a known Congolese terrorist brought down a French airliner going from Brazzaville to Paris, with zero link to anything Libyan.

As of now, the West's propaganda machine is still in cold war mode, so will take any opportunity to blame Russia for stuff (even though Putin was one of very few to recognise that the Libyan "revolution" was not all it might have seemed. And he was right about that).

So don't be too hasty.......

g

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:48 AM

Its all about the missile launcher.
Ukrainians say it was heading for Russia after the incident, Russians say they have proof that it went back into Ukrainian "government" controlled area.

When we know for sure who pressed the button, the reasons will become more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

I wonder if it was an attempt to shoot Putin down as he returned from the BRICS conference. His jet was in the area 30 minutes earlier. The planes do look alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky

The BUK missile explodes 60m before impact sending a hail of fragments at the target.
This would cause the fuselage to break up and produce exactly what was seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

the line coming from Kiev is that rebels thought they were shooting down a troop carrier. It seems to me that the jet was flying too high for it to have been a troop carrier bound for some place in the Ukraine .The crash site is about 30 miles from the Ukraine-Russia border, the plane was flying at over 30,000 ft . If the rebels did shoot it down they must surely have known it was heading towards Russia , which a Ukraine military troop carrier obviously would not have been doing .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

Lusitania parallels, anyone???

Waiting for Mr Putin to come up with denials similar to those of the German Government in 1915.

Just thinking out loud....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith , but do you think

Absolutely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

The source is Russian , Keith , but do you think what it says in translation sounds reasonably accurate ? Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky. There would have been no passengers seen falling as was the case with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 because the passengers would have blown up with the aircraft if it had been hit by a BUK missile. Do you think that sounds true ?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:38 AM

Shh.. Don't let Keith know that! His total social intercourse comprises of quoting from right wing reactionary press and defying people to laugh at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

The stuff in yesterday's papers and on Rupert Murdoch's Sky News channel about people in east Ukraine looting the corpses reminded me of the treatment given by Murdoch to the Liverpool soccer club fans who they accused of corpse looting after nearly a hundred fans were crushed to death at Hillsborough in 1989 . Murdoch's paper apologized for its Hillsborough headline only last year .Some people still believe whatever the Sun says as if it's the gospel and Murdoch is Jesus .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

It was in Russian.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

I am very gullible , Keith but not as gullible as the people who got on board that plane.

I assume they were gullible but it could be the case that they were not advised at check-in that they were going to be flying over a war zone whose airspace was controlled by "terrorists". Perhaps they hadn't been warned before getting aboard that these terrorists were in possession of Russian-supplied missiles capable of bringing down their aircraft . It could be they were not aware of the fact that the US civil aviation authority had forbidden flights over the Ukraine war zone .

I posted that thing I was sent by a facebook friend to give some indication of what is being said outside of the Western media, which had already concluded within 12 hours that the downing of the aircraft was the work of "Putin's missile". The pro-Russian piece sounds reasonable but I don't have the expertise to judge . I was hoping that the military types here might give their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:28 PM

Saw film strip on BBC news today, showing a Separatist carrying what looks like the flight recorder (black box). It has been previously reported that they took the recorder. The rebels say that they will hand over the recorder to the International team. ? Could it be compromised? Inn any case, it will have indication of loss of all systems, but that would be expected.

BBC and Al Jazeera both had film clips of what looks like the missile launcher system that fires Buk missiles being moved, but questionable as to where the film was shot. It was indicated that it was being removed from Separatist territory to Russia.

The Inspection group was not allowed complete access to the sites (kept out by armed gunmen) until after it had been picked over by the Separatists. (See BBC news) Any missile fragments may have been removed.

200 of the bodies have been put in refrigerated box cars by the Separatists. (BBC news)

Ukrainian forces do not currently have access to Separatist-held territory; it is doubtful that Ukraine will ever be able to reclaim their eastern territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

Just when the news out of eastern Ukraine couldn't get any worse, it did. Separatists controlling the area of of the MH17 wreckage have declared that they can only ensure international investigators will have access to the crash site if Ukraine agrees to a truce: "We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement," said Andre Purgin, a senior leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic. The declaration amounts to blackmail, as Nina Ivanovna put it; The separatists are holding the bodies of MH17 passengers hostage in exchange for territory.

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

This is one act of war that I expect will never be definitively proven because the primary evidence will not be made available to Western countries. Much looting of the scene has apparently taken place, and Ukraine separatists are impeding expert investigation, according to various news sources.

I am saddened by the useless deaths of the passengers and crew of the plane by trigger happy thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

You are very gullible Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

This is from a Russian facebook friend.

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
Photo: First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

politics is what people do - you can't get away from what people do

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

Politics makes me want to puke!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

More than 250 people -- including infants and children -- are killed by a missile attack on an civilian aircraft. There is international outrage, but no hard evidence yet as to who fired the thing and such may never be released.

So you argue from media reports and rumors. You call each other names, insult each other. Why? Because you are impotent to do anything else.

Like so many before me, I shall never post again to any thread that has the slightest political overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

"Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?"

What's the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:51 AM

The rebels' stated position is that they have missiles which can shoot down low-flying aircraft such as attacking fighter jets and military transport planes coming in for a landing, but none that can hit a plane at the much higher altitude of the Malaysian airliner.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

When an Albanian refugee caravan was bombed in Kosovo, the US government/press insisted that it was done by the Yugoslav air force; until independent journalists went to the scene and photographed the bomb casings. After that they admitted it was a US bombing but claimed that it was a mistake. They never mentioned the fact that this particular caravan had been going farther inside Kosovo, as ordered by the Yugoslav government to get them out of a probable war zone near the border, and contrary to KLA orders to go across the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM

"Last time this happened it was the US who shot..." (Mrr)

Shooting down of civilian airliners between 1988 (the shooting down Mrr recollects) and today I could find:

September 1993: "...three Tupolev civilian airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were hit by missiles fired by rebels in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, Georgia. A total of 136 perished in the attacks." (Wikipedia)
The Abkhazian war of secession from Georgia was strongly supported by Russia. That might ring a bell.

October, 20th, 1998, "Rebels in eastern Congo shot down a Congo Airlines passenger jet" (Boston Globe). No Russian involvement!

October, 4th, 2001. A Ucrainian missile downs an Air Siberia plane killing all 78 on board.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:54 AM

And was there a "MASSIVE show of force by the international community" - NO!!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

Now the scum are stealing items from the passengers.

"Reports of looting have also emerged as victims' bodies and belongings remain strewn across the area two days after the crash.

Sky's Michelle Clifford, in Donetsk, said: "These reports are gaining currency about looting, that valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies."

====

Putin and his cronies should HANG for this. And in London all we get is pro-Russian biased news because the Evening Standard is owned by the f'ing Russian KGB. 'Boycot RT' is an active group on Facebook too. Lies, lies and propaganda. And #$%$ - now we hear that the terrorists are stealing "valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies." Absolute #$%$. Appalling country, appalling people. Marx must be turning in his grave.

====

This site will be desecrated and pillaged by both the terrorists and Russians. Only way to secure it is with a MASSIVE show of force by the international community - ideally flown in and supported by as much air power as possible.. Provocative - so was shooting down an airliner then making up BS excuses. The evidence will be destroyed and that will end all investigations. The Ukrainian "rebels/terrorists / Russians have no respect for human life - their history shows this all too well!

According to news the black boxes have been confiscated and are now in Russia - any bets they will have been "damaged beyond repair" in the crash.

====

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

up to this point, from his [Putin's]point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.
The same happened in Syria last year . The situation was "all going reasonably well" for the Syrian army when the chemical attack on Ghouta occurred, which the Western media immediately blamed on the Syrian government . The media said at the time that it was "probably" a Syrian army commander acting without direct orders from Assad but that the regime that Assad headed was responsible
" Kerry publicly cited last week: intercepted communications telling Syrian military units to prepare for the chemical strikes.
"The Obama administration maintains it intercepted communications from a senior Syrian official on the use of chemical weapons.........."
The statement from Kiev yesterday :
"SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane...."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM

That last referred to Musket's statement, "Amongst others"

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:24 AM



No.
You only quoted me.
That is how I knew you were referring to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

sep-a-ra-tist ... I think ...? But definitely not "separist"!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

Inevitably I find myself thinking of previous times this kind of lethal stupidity has happened, mosr especially the time when Iran Air Flight 655, with 290 people on board, including 60 children, was shot down by US Navy cruiser USS vincennes, on July 3 1988.

Trigger happy military stupidity, rather than calculated terrorism, i suppose, as will no doubt turn out to be the case this time also, whoever turns out to have been responsible. The men of the Vincennes all received Combat action Ribbons, and the commander was given a Navy Commendation Medal at the end of the tour. I hope the people who did this will get treated a bit more fittingly. I rather suspect they will, if Putin has any say in it...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:39 PM

Amongst others, you aren't that special. Daft as a brush and can't help letting your Col. Blimp persona betray you, but just one of too many to be honest.

For instance, not even you would come out with what pdq just put.

Malaysia is also 46% men.

What's more, it is 54% women!

I thought the sick twats were posting on Mail Online, not Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

Well, you did actually quote me in the post!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

I suspect that Putin now finds himself with a big, big problem over this foul atrocity; and, up to this point, from his point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.

There is no doubt that the revolution in Ukraine presented Russia and Putin with big problems. The most urgent and pressing was the potential for losing the warm water ports of the Crimean peninsula. Putin acted quickly, decisively and ruthlessly and annexed Crimea. This was almost certainly an illegal act but who was going to stop him?

Eastern Ukraine represented a bigger problem but Putin took the route of arming Russian-speaking Ukrainian separist insurgents (the sort of thing that the west regularly does in other parts of the world). The trouble is, as the west regularly finds, such insurgents can be unpredictable, ill-disciplined and impulsive. Now they've gone and shot down a civilian aircraft with missiles that Putin, almost certainly, supplied them with. Whatever the truth of the matter is, most of the world community is pointing the finger of blame at Putin and Russia. What are you going to do, Vladimir? For all our sakes, it better be something good!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I will not guess who dunnit. Proof should come out eventually.

I just feel that it is no coinsidence that this is the second Maylasia Airlines Boeing 777 to fall out of the sky in the past few months.

Maylasia is 62% Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

it could be anyone who wishes to inflame the situation, even the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

I did, amongst others, but nice to him recognise his faults, even if he is too far up his own arse to address them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Q:Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

A: It isn't. Certain folks like yourself, FW, may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraaft.
I read a comment to an article this morning saying "Putin's plane was scheduled to take the same route only one hour later."
Did anyone else see anything on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

"Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?"

If you need to ask that question, you probably won't understand the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

It would have been quite reasonable for the Ukraine to have had a Bak missile system deployed in the Eastern Ukraine, which could have been captured by the rebels. But I am no expert on the Ukrainian air defense system.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Not at all, Keith. China disputes it as well- as I'm sure Syria does.The people who said last year that there was "little doubt" about who gassed civilians in Ghouta are the same ones who say today that there is little doubt that Ukraine rebels are responsible .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

What "agenda" musket?
I have none.

"little doubt" was accurate.
Only Russia disputes it, as they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

A tragedy on many levels including the fact that there were as many as 100 people heading to the AIDS 2014 conference in Melbourne among them scores of leading AIDS research experts.

"The cure for AIDS may have been on that plane, we just don't know," Trevor Stratton, an AIDS consultant who was attending a pre-event in Sydney, told the ABC network.

"You can't just help but wonder about the kind of expertise on that plane."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:46 AM

Once reasonable people know more, there will be reason to say "little doubt." Until then leave it to those for whom a blame in one direction is convenient for their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

I would tend to agree with you Keith that there is little doubt as to what happened, especially considering the intercepted radio exchanges between "Separatists" and "Russian" Security Forces shortly after the aircraft was shot down. The culprits would most probably be "Separatists" operating a missile system smuggled to them by the Russians or looted from a Ukranian Army base (As the "Separatists" do not have aircraft there is no reason for the Ukranian Armed Forces to have such systems deployed in the area - there being no air threat).

Trouble is these missiles are normally part of a larger integrated air defence system with quite complex and comprehensive command and control networks. Deployed in isolation and being operated in "local" control it becomes very difficult to positively identify your target before firing.

The aircraft should have been safe at its normal cruising altitude and its route was considered safe as the flight plan must have been filed and approved.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Some odd turns of grammar in the spoof post, Musket: not like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:03 AM

There can be little doubt what happened.
The separatist rebels have been shooting down government aircraft using Russian supplied missiles for some time.
It would not have been deliberate, and they will never admit responsibility.

Apart from the human tragedy, the most concerning issue is Putin's reckless enthusiasm for supplying advanced weapons to inflame such conflicts.
Without Putin's weapon supplies Assad would have been overthrown before Syria became such a catastrophe with no end remotely in sight.

If he starts interfering in the Baltic states there is a real threat to all our futures.

Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM

Err.. That wasn't Musket...

Musket is 100% signed in rather than guest as of last week.

I didn't read what it said. Was I being eloquent?