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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Lyr Req: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (21)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
Lyr Req: The green fields of France (32)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


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Subject: No man's land protest
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:43 AM

The British Legion is causing controversy by releasing a version of Eric Bogles song "No man's land", also known as "Green fields of France" and "Wilie McBride" without the all important last verse condeming war.
The stopwar.org.uk site (can't do blue clicky on my phone) has a petition to sign if you agree that this is unethical.
I would be interested to know Eric Bogle's own view on.this.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:52 AM

I dont think E Bogle is a mudcat member.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 02:48 AM

Interesting that this protester believes the song to be miscalled 'No Man's Land' (Bogle himself doesn't) and appears to promote the version perpetrated by the Fureys.

While agreeing that verse 4 is vital to the song, I find the alternative offered is also flawed, particularly in v.3

No Man's Land on EB's own site, a couple of minor errors, but at least they are the author's.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:02 AM

A big petition has been started ~ a folk song should be sung by a folk singer and not made into Pop in my view and sung as written ~ hope Eric Bogle's permission was sought and given however!

British Legion should be seen to be beyond reproach

Ray


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:35 AM

Notwithstanding anybody can sing any song, subject to observing copyright terms and conditions, and reserving a type of song for a type of singer isn't the best comment I have ever heard on here, I do support the principle of not losing the whole ethos of the song.

Not sure starting a petition against BL does anybody any favours all the same. Nobody would have bothered buying Rolf Harris's "Stairway to Heaven" if a petition hadn't started...

I doubt many in the Albert Hall see glory in war when singing along to Elgar's "Glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:00 AM

a great way of drawing publicity to a folk song, and to eric bogle, and could lead to an interesting discussion on whether words should be changed without the authors permission, who knows we may have a visit from some people who will claim it is not a folk song because it does not fit into the 1954 definition.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:10 AM

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

Regards


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:45 AM

I object to the suggestion in the song that Willy and his friends were so stupid as to fight without knowing why.
The song should not have been used at all,.
It is a great song, but not accurate.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:39 AM

The arrangement and the performance does leave a lot to be desired as can be heard HERE


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

I haven't listened to the British Legion's version of Bogle's song, and I don't intend to, so please excuse me if I don't know what I'm talking about.

However, the issue here seems to me to be less to do with the bowdlerisation of a fine anti-war song than it is to do with the glorification of war. To use of any piece of music, including Elgar's Enigma Variations, and turn it into an emblem of war and a justification of the millions of lives lost is something which I find stomach churning.

You can find a link to the petition here . Please sign.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:57 AM

Fred

DO have a listen! It's the most wonderful example of appalling musical taste that I've heard for a long time - and I've heard lots!

Regards


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: JHW
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:04 AM

The text on the stopwar site is the Irish version. ie 'countless white crosses in mute witness stand' dumbed down to 'countless white crosses stand mute in the sand' etc.
I'd vote for that version only to be sung with all the verses omitted, and the chorus.
stopwar site


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM

The countless white crosses must indeed "in mute witness stand" because revisionist so called historians are busy sanitising the carnage, callousness and poor leadership.

There is a huge difference between knowing why you fought and thinking you know why you fought.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: thetwangman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:30 AM

The text on the stopwar site appears to be the Furey's version. I wouldn't consider it 'the Irish version'. Many Irish singers sing Bogle's original lyrics. Having said that, I have no objection to the Furey's version. They had a big hit with it and fair play to them.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: JHW
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

I'd wondered time and again where the 'revised' version came from and asked someone who sang it one night. He produced his book of 101 Irish songs.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:05 AM

Whilst I think this is an awful version of a really moving song, I hope it sells well and makes a lot of money for the Legion's work.

I sung it a few years back at a Remembrance Day service, and by the time I'd finished there was not a dry eye in the congregation, which I hope was a refelection of the song itself and not my performance ;)

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

'I object to the suggestion in the song that Willy and his friends were so stupid as to fight without knowing why.

Keith, I suspect that in the majority of wars the average 'foot soldier' probably does not fully understand the politics behind the war, so it is a fair enough question to ask what they believed to be the cause, and I suspect that's what Eric Bogle is getting at in the song

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:19 AM

We all wondered what Eric Bogle felt about this version of his great song - well now we know:

Here's songwriter Eric Bogle's response:
"Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:33 AM

Martin. Can you or anyone provide me with a link to a site where I can actually hear this alleged mess of pottage?

I know that someone has already posted what is supposed to be such a link, but all that comes up is the Daily Telegraph news report.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:42 AM

Here on the artists website: http://www.jossstone.com/news?n_id=7231


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:00 AM

My father always said that he didn't enlist in the New Zealand army in WW I for any great patriotic motives but just went along with everyone else. He got discharged before going overseas because of a pre-existing medical problem but having been given such a flag-waving send-off he couldn't go back to the town where he had enlisted, so he came to Australia instead. He always kept his discharge papers in his wallet to show those people who, while mostly being outside the draft themselves, liked to go around giving out white feathers.
   Whatever the young men thought they were signing-up for, it's certainly a fact that nobody on either side had the least conception of what a horrifying experience trench warfare would turn out to be.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:02 AM

Thanks BH. That is awful. Worse even than I could have envisaged. I can only respond with something Wilfred Owen wrote about war.

DULCE ET DECORUM EST(1)

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas!Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: thetwangman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:29 AM

JHW, the Furey's 'revised' version probably appears in lots of those type of book by virtue of the fact that it was a big hit in Ireland. Still, it's a bit of a stretch to consider it the Irish version.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:55 AM

Joss Stone & Jeff Beck cover - dreary and overlong MOR pop gospel.... nothing special...

But let's be realistic, the original Eric Bogle version
is not a particularly interesting or engaging musical experience either...
and it's even longer and drearier...

Perhaps consider how much Bogle's intended "powerful anti-war message" is neutralized and undermined
by the uninspired boring performance & arrangement.

Personal tastes of course - neither are the kind of music I like to listen to..


...odd the things folks contrive to get their knickers in a twist about.....

..and before anyone gets up on their high horse,
I've been a lifelong pacifist and anti jingoistic-warmongers since very early childhood...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM

..and not that anyone cares.. but "Streets of Laredo" is one of my favourite songs...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:13 AM

John, I disagree, especially for that war.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:34 AM

I'm pretty sure that PRS/MCPS do not have power to license material changes to the works in its repertoire so there may very well be an issue of whether the version is indeed licit.

Keith, we know you like war.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:56 AM

I seem to be in the minority in that I don't particularly like the song that much, but that's the way it goes I suppose.

I have nonetheless signed the petition on the grounds of perverting the intentions of the writer, and dumbing down/sanitising the effect.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:09 AM

I've just listened to The Fureys with Davey Arthur's version.

That's not much better either... easy listening MOR 'folk music' productions.....



I've now got a niggly notion in my head that I've heard a much more stirring version of this song, or one of the 'Laredo' variants,

with an emotionally charged 'ironic' backing from a rousing 'military' bagpipe and drums marching band...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

I bow to Bridge on such matters, but to borrow and totally change the intention of the thrust of the song sounds more like plagiarism than claiming it to be the same song?

I doubt the new "parody" clause would cover them?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:26 AM

I'm a bit jaded with petitions, myself, as they seem to be rife on Facebook for absolutely everything these days. So I'm writing directly to the head of PR at the British Legion (a Becky Warren) to express my point of view that the version they're sponsoring has altered the song to the point of removing its central message. I have in my time been a poppy seller and I have also recently written a song (using the "dulce et decorum est" quote, as it happens, as used by Wilfred Owen) inspired by a National Theatre of Wales production about the Somme called Mametz. My song was also inspired by hearing a survivor from WWII describing his own revulsion to great parades and processions to commemorate the start of WWI. We can honour the soldiers who died without sanitising or glorifying the war they died in.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:30 AM

I like June Tabor's version of "No Man's Land". Isn't "Laredo" itself just a variant too. Both songs stemming from "The Unfortunate Rake". Not that it matters they can all be judged on their own merits.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:35 AM

Another of these English singers -- I gather she comes from Dover -- for some reason incapable of singing except with that odd sort of cod-American accent called 'mid-Atlantic', which I always find super-depressing {I even OPd a thread about it a way back}, even tho one of my best friends, the pop-singer-songwriter Marcie Mycroft, points out that it's just the way songs like hers are sung. This admittedly isn't a song of that sort, & Ms Stone, tho doubtless talented in her own way & genre, seems to me a poor choice to perform it on the part of the BL. There must surely be more suitable English or Scottish singers capable of singing in their own accent who would have made a better choice. OTOH, they presumably want to maximise profits for their excellent cause, and reckoned from a biz POV that a singer as popular as JS, singing in the way that the record-buying public expects such singers to sing, should aid in this. I fear they may be right, at that.

Is one's priority to be with taste or with profit for good cause? Not a simple one to answer, it seems to me.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM

Sorry punkfolkrocker but I do not agree with your opinion regarding Eric Bogles song and version. To me Eric sings it as he intended, when he wrote it, with a strong message at the end in order to counter those who glorify war.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:36 AM

The Men They Couldn't Hang did a good version of it PFR, this might be more up your street? Men They Couldn't Hang

And Keith, When you consider the numbers who signed up under age, the huge jingoistic enlistment campaigns, peer pressure (white feathers etc etc) and the fact that some of the politics behind it all are still not clear to this day, I still think the question posed in the song as to what those boy soldiers believed is a very valid one.

My Grandfather lost his sight in a gas attack and was sent home, I never met him as he had died before I was born, but I'm told he considered himself one of the lucky ones, as he came home, and when asked why he went, all he would say is it was his duty and he had to.

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 10:40 AM

I've read that the earlier "The Unfortunate Rake" is a dying syphilitic soldier song..

Dunno how many poppies that would sell...???

Thanks, I'm off to google the June Tabor version...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 11:14 AM

June Tabor - She is good, sombre and minimalist.. best so far..

Men They Couldn't Hang - in the right direction, but over prettified guitars / mando ?..

Structurally, It's a long song, so maybe difficult to sustain a recorded arrangement
without lapsing into paint by numbers instrumental filler...???

The quest is on to find the best recording as far away from MOR and Brian and Michael style folk production as possible..

Actually, the Brass Band in "Matchstalk men and matchstalk cats and dogs"
might be a good starting point for an arrangement of "No man's land" I'd like...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 11:36 AM

If they wanted to maximise single sales then Joss Stone seems a poor choice. According to her discography on wiki her last single to hit the charts at all was in 2007 and that only got to number 84. She's since had 11 releases none of which even made the top 100.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 12:16 PM

The bagpipes and drums version nagging my memory, might have been a police or military funeral scene from a movie,
or perhaps this..Dropkick Murphys - The Green Fields of France ???

which is not too bad a version...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 12:17 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5xZQVkhak another anti war song with words altered


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 12:26 PM

Dick - I really like that.
I much prefere reeds to acoustic guitar 'folk' solo accompaniments.

Have you had a similar go at "No man's land", posted anywhere ?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 12:39 PM

Whatever, Joss Stone has one of those bluesy voices that I can listen to all day, (and have done...) whatever the rights wrongs and indifferences of this topic, her quality and talent in her musical genre is one of the most exciting I have had the pleasure to listen to.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:01 PM

punk folk rocker, not yet.anyway Ithink we should all sign the petition because it will do a number of things, draw attention to the missing verse and publicise a modern folk song.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

my reservation about this petition is I consider it's exploiting the song merely as a vehicle
for having an attack againt the institution of the Brit Legion.

I'm not convinced STW coalition really give a monkeys about music or songwriters...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:46 PM

I don't think they do. Part of me is with punkfolkrocker here.

Many seem to be confusing the sacrilige of buggering about with the message of a wonderful song with their pro or anti whatever political thoughts.

It is a song. No more, no less. I too would prefer it to include the final verse, but we can't have old soldiers thinking their mates died for fuck all, now can we?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: G-Force
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

I thought she came from Devon, not Dover.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 02:57 PM

Allan Conn. Not being a pop enthusiast, the name of Joss Stone doesn't mean very much to me beyond the fact (I think) that she was the subject of an abduction attempt not all that long ago.

However, the news that she hasn't had a hit since the devil knows when is interesting. Do I hear the cynical sounds of someone desperately trying to revive a flagging career?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:35 PM

What Eric bogle wrote in its entirety via fRoots:

Apparently Joss Stone's version of my song "No Man's Land" has polarised opinions. I usually don't comment publicly on other people's versions of my songs, but many of you have e-mailed me about this matter and seem genuinely upset about it, so I am sending you the following in reply to some of the questions I have been asked………please note that I will be entering into no further correspondence regarding this matter, I don't want to spend the rest of my life e-mailing on my computer, so you will have to accept (or reject ) what I have said below and leave it there…….! ! The copyright for "No Man's Land/The Green Fields of France" is held by my UK Publisher,! Domino Publishing, who are ultimately responsible for approving applications to record this song. When an artist wishes to record "No Man's Land" they must apply for a mechanical license to do so from the relevant UK agency, and pay a licensing fee. Permission to record is more or less automatic, especially if, as is the case with this song, it has been recorded before. At no stage in this process am I, the composer, involved. Generally speaking, the first I know of any new recording is when I see any subsequent royalties from the recording appearing on my royalty statements. ! !
When the artist(s) in question records the cover version of the song, they can, and often do, rework ! the song as to be almost unrecognisable from the original version. This is especially true in Jazz music, and is generally regarded as an acceptable creative exercise by the artist(s). Although! the publisher and/or composer could take legal action if they feel that the original essence of the song has been irrevocably altered and very much to the song's detriment, this very rarely happens. The bottom line is that so long as royalties are paid, any wounded artistic feelings are usually put aside.! !
So then, to the most asked questions about this affair:! !!
Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention. As to the musical arrangement, it's really about whatever floats your musical boat. I would have thought a strong mostly acoustic version would have done a better job of getting the message across, but that's just my personal preference, and I'm a bit of an old fart folkie. But then to do an acoustic version and include all four verses and choruses would have made the song nearly 7 minutes long, making it of doubtful commercial appeal in today's modern music market, given that the average attention span of that market's consumers is rarely more than three minutes or so. There's not much doubt that the shortened, up-tempo, bluesy version that Joss does will probably appeal to a much broader cross-section of the listening public, certainly to those who did not know the song existed until they heard Joss's version. ! !
Is the strong anti-war message in the original song diminished in this recording? Yes, missing some crucial verses does not help. But then this diminishment is only in the eyes (or ears) of people who have heard the original version of the song. Those who have not heard the original cannot make the same comparisons or judgements. They must take Joss's version on it's own merits and make their own interpretation. ! !
Does it follow then that this version glorifies war instead of condemning it? - No, in my opinion it certainly doesn't glorify it, but doesn't condemn it either, it just sort of starts off promisingly enough and then turns into a sing- along chorus type of song. Sentimentalising perhaps, but not glorifying.! !!
Will me or my publisher be suing Joss Stone, Jeff Beck or the British Legion? — No, you have to be joking. I would have wished for a version of my song that could have been more true to my original intention in writing the song, but if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:01 PM

I didn't mean to suggest that Fred. I imagine her heart may very well be in the right place. It was just another poster said it may have done for maximising sales. If that was the case then Adele, Emile Sande or that red haired guy (name slips by) would have been far more likely to make it a hit


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:14 PM

Eric Bogle does actually make the point that no-one has yet said, that this version will have far more commercial appeal, and that of course is the whole point of the recording.

There would be little point in the Legion publishing a 'folkie' version to a limited audience, hence the reason for this version.

As I said earlier, I don't like it, but I hope it makes the Legion lost of money.

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

@ G-Force

JOSS STONE

Birth name         Jocelyn Eve Stoker
Born         11 April 1987 (age 27)
Dover, Kent, England

Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

That's 'LOTS' of course!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:22 PM

Whilst the pedants are out, she's a soul singer, if we must use irrelevant terms of genre.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:23 PM

John: I did say that, more or less, a few posts back - 1035 am.

Best

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Pistachio
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:35 PM

I too would like the Legion to make a lot of money - but I'd like (even having read Eric's own comments)the general public to know that what's happened is akin to someone rewriting John Lennon's 'Imagine' and putting it out there without remaining true to the sentiment nor singing a style that's sympathetic to the original.                Yes, there's the 'folk process' - with different interpretations - but not butchering and wailing (by some accounts). I do admit, for my own reasons, I do not plan to listen to the JS version.       Hopefully Eric will receive a good return too.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

...anyway... enough about Joss Stone....

It's Jeff Beck... only Jeff bleedin Yardbirds Beck...

How many snobby folkies have ever managed anything anyway near as good as
"Shapes of Things" and "Over Under Sideways Down"

Or ever influenced as many other musicians


Jeff legendary pioneer of the glorious TONEBENDER fuzzbox Beck...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

Please see S. 80- CDPA 1988 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/IV

What I do not know is whether Bogle has signed a waiver under S. 87 (ibid).


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:46 PM

STW are coming from a clear anti-war perspective and very clear that they object to the increasing levels of jingoism attached to remembrance. Fair enough point as far as I'm concerned. We all have axes to grind and the world would be a duller place if we didn't grind them. To be appalled by the loss of life in capitalist wars doesn't make you a bad person; for the Legion to be associated with an anti-war song is no bad thing. No-one, surely, wants wars - and to glorify them is pretty psychopathic. So as far as I'm concerned it wouldn't have harmed them to do the song properly - might have even done them a favour. Personally I won't wear a poppy, because I don't like what it's come to symbolise: it seems it's less 'lest we forget' as 'we have forgotten - business as usual'.

Meanwhile, loved your Youtube clip Dick. How about putting up a new recording of the Rebel Soldier? - one of your finest moments in my book...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM

With you on Jeff Beck, PFR - but he should have retired gracefully in about 1972...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:54 PM

My favourite is The Men They Couldn't Hang's version too. It was the first I heard and I never realised it was a folk song.

But aren't we being a bit precious here. Folk song developed because people heard songs and sang their own versions. Words were changed, verses added, verses subtracted.

I haven't heard the new version but presumably it's going to mean that a number of people hear the original version anyway when they wouldn't have otherwise.

Mt father was a conchie, I expect that his father was too (although his brothers weren't) and on my mother's side they were working in the pits anyway but even with my background and views I think that we ought to acknowledge that different people from the First World War would have had different ideas about it anyway. If we just assume that everyone was against the war then we do many of the military a disservice. They may have preferred not to fight but they also thought that it was right that they did so.

On a totally different tack, this is the best video accompanying a song about the war that I've seen

John Tams - Scarecrow


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:59 PM

Speaking as someone who is anti-war, without any affiliation to any organisation, the affair seems to show the British Legion in a light that marks them as not anti-war.
And after a brief search on the internet I find results which reinforce this with some of their previous historic decisions, for example refusing to change the wording cast into their poppy central sections to show a message requesting an end to war.
I applaud Eric Bogle for his composition and regret that this new rendition will not reflect his intended message.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:10 PM

Michael, sorry, I missed that one :)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:34 PM

Eric's last sentence in the fRoots article is extraordinarily generous and restrained.
Having now listened to the Joss Stone version (previously having wondered what was so awful that yet another petition had to be started - yes I also suffer "petition fatigue") - it's a massacre of the original song. I've never been comfortable with the Furey's version: only Eric's and a very few other people's singing of it "do it" for me.
It's one of those songs that so often get murdered in sessions, and have you thinking "oh no not that again" - unless it is done really well, in which case, yes, the tissues come out. If Joss Stone felt so strongly about doing an anti-war song, let her write her own and not tamer with such a well-written, well constructed, heart-felt song as Eric's.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:46 PM

Originally a great song but done to death - sorry folks, no pun intended.

Everytime someone at a session starts singing "No Man's Land" or "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" my heart sinks and I think, oh god, not AGAIN.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 04:46 AM

John Bounty Hound.
It was not about obscure politics.
UK would not have been involved if it was about Archdukes and the Balkans.

Duty meant something to the people of those times.
We were duty bound to defend Belgium when it was invaded.
We had a treaty.
People were outraged by the atrocities committed in Belgium and every reason to believe that we would be next..
They felt with justification they were fighting to defend Britain.
Everyone had a basic education and access to a free press.
They were not just fools too stupid to "understand when they told you the cause"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:29 AM

Keith, I don't think we are really disagreeing here, and you are of course correct that duty meant something to the people of those times.

I'm absolutely certain that when Eric Bogle posed the question in the song he was not suggesting for one minute that they were just 'fools to stupid to understand' but asking whether they were there just out of a sense of duty.

John


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:32 AM

All very fine discussing 'duty' - let's not forget about conscription...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:47 AM

Tattie Bogle. "If Joss Stone feels so strongly about singing an anti war song, let her write her own."

Or alternatively, let anyone sing anybody's song? Are you only saying only Eric Bogle should sing it? I do deplore the decision by BL to leave out the important message of the final verse, but surely any singer can sing any song?   I was asked to sing it lastt week, being the nearest folk club night to remembrance Sunday at a local club. Should I have sung something I wrote instead? Regardless of whether I could do the subject justice?

What an odd comment?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:55 AM

Fair point PFR, just looked for some figures and there were more conscripts than volunteers.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

All I 'know' about my family's role in WW1 is from what little I was told as a child.

My Nan lost a brother at Passchendaele.
Her father, my great grandad, was somewhere over there in his 40s. He got wounded by shrapnel.

I haven't a clue if either 'volunteered'.

Grandad - my dad's father - may have been in the horse artillery,
By my rough calculation, he must have been well in his 30s...
Again, no idea if he was a 'volunteer' ???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:18 AM

You can hardly expect the RBL to be anti-war, basically it's a welfare organisation for ex-members of the military. It remembers the First World War because that was the spur to its formation and much of its resources have been used supporting those who fought in it as well as those who served later. It is neither for nor against the wars but for the well-being of its members.

And it is a difficult situation. Imagine that you were in a Syrian town being attacked by ISIS and that you are aware that if the town falls the men will be slaughtered, the children taken away to be brought up by the ISIS fighters and the women sold into slavery, would you take a gun and fight if you were offered the chance or would you surrender and take the consequences?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:47 AM

Eric's probably right, the pipsqueaks don't deserve the attention. Next time the lesson for anyone writing something is to pull no punches, and in the mean time, perhaps Eric will confirm that he actually gets some royalties from it, as he's not credited on the RBL YouTube thread, only further down as it being a "cover" of his work.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Daisy belle
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

Surely this was a missed opportunity to expose the futility and stupidity of war? In the words of another songwriter "When will they ever learn? I would suggest that anyone who wants to know what it was really like and what motivated young people at the time reads Vera Brittain's autobiographical novel "Testament of Youth".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM

Fair enough that one shouldn't expect the Legion to be anti-war but if that is the case then one can criticize them for taking a top anti war anthem and twisting the meaning!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:36 AM

This raises a number of interesting questions.

Firstly, was this the right song for the British Legion to choose in the first place? Did they want an anti-war song? I would guess that a fair number of the professional servicemen and women they now mainly aim to support are not entirely opposed to war in principle, and the same may also have been true of many of those who are now remembered. The opposite of war is often not peace but oppression. Certainly many of my parents' generation who were in WW2 had few doubts that war was justified, and the same seems also to have been true for many of those in WW1. This song represents a modern point of view which may not have been recognised by those who it is about.

Secondly, did BL deliberately edit the song to alter its message, or was this a crass decision made during the process of rehearsing and recording? Either way, whether or not it was legal to do this without the consent of the writer was it morally justifiable to do so?

I am astonished that in the accompanying 'behind the scenes' video Joss Stone talks about respecting the integrity of the song. It makes me wonder whether she'd even seen the full lyrics or was just presented with the truncated version.

i'm not quite sure what the edited version is trying to say. The tone seems to me quite inappropriate for what has become a simple requiem for a individual soldier. However I suppose a lot of people will buy it, whether to support the BL or because they like the sound, perhaps without thinking too much about what it is saying.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:42 AM

Some years ago I asked Eric Bogle if he was cheesed off by the Fureys version of No Man's Land .......... he said he was ......... until the Royalties started coming in.

Who can blame him, he has to make a living. He's probably one of very few who has made a decent living out of folk music.

I've listened to Joss Stone's version in my opinion it is unadulterated horse droppings and certainly negates the anti war message of the original which I have always considered to be one of the finest of its kind.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

Quite agree Howard. Bogle concedes that the song is probably too long for this purpose but I think if any verse was to be left out (so that the meaning of the song remains intact) then it should be the second verse. The first sets the scene whist the third and fourth are where the message of the song sits.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement,
it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

If you must accuse anyone, blame the hack freelance producers for insensiitive editing of this song.


Seriously, some mudcatters are just so desperate to find anything to complain about..
Especially if they can indulge in any excuse to hurl abuse at 'inferior' modern non folk based musical performances...

The UK folk scene surely harbours the oddest bunch of disgruntled resentful mean spirited
sanctimonious narrow minded fundamentalists....

... who really seem to know eff all about the real world of music and musicians...

well... that's the impression one might get from a sizable over vociferous minority...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM

Oh, they are an odd minority PFR...

As it is on this thread, some are calling it a folk song. If it cropped up on another thread, the same people would claim it can't be a folk song because it falls foul of some absurd committee that sent out agendas and read out apologies in 1954, allegedley...

Twisting songs? I remember Bruce Springsteen fans getting pissed off when Reagan borrowed "Born in The USA" at Republican conventions, and Joe South's questioning anthem "Games people play" being used to advertise a celebrity magazine, and that's before butter manufacturers saw the value of "The Wild Rover" and Johnny Rotten.... Not to mention Liverpool Airport borrowing "Above us only Sky." (I liked that, on account of the God botherers stood outside arrivals with placards looking stupid.)

Some of the comments on this thread are rather strange and seem to deflect from the idea of altering a song to destroy what it was written for in the first place. It seems to be degenerating into a "it's our song not yours!" Playground politics....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM

yeah.... dead odd...

they blather on at great length about the 'folk process'
then get almighty over protective and vengeful when anyone remotely young and modern
dares to tamper with a single word of one of their sacrosact 'folk songs'...?????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

Testament of Youth is not a novel. It is the first instalment of Vera Brittain's Autobography.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

Most people won't know the song in any form and will judge this version on its own merits. The song may be extremely well-known amongst folkies but most people won't have heard of it. This version is not my cup of tea but I dare say that plenty of people will like it, and that it will be a success on its own terms and will raise funds for the Legion.

Whilst Eric Bogle has said he and his publishers have no intention of suing, I think the BL has acted unethically by not seeking his approval. However I suspect this is more likely to be a cock-up than a conspiracy. They went to someone to commission a fund-raising song, and someone in the production company thought of this and trimmed it, either to deliberately change the meaning or simply to reduce the length. I suspect it was then presented to BL for approval, no one there knew the proper version and they accepted it at face value without question. They would have expected the production company to deal with copyright issues.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:17 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement, it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

I doubt there is any error of judgment. The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion. They knew exactly what they were doing; their only mistake was in thinking they could get away with it.

They make me want to puke and I'd never support them in any way.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:33 AM

I just cannot believe some of the ignorance and sheer ugliness posted here..unbelievable .I have known many veterans in my time and have known not one who glorified war. I am just appalled at some of the above comments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

What a fuss over nothing, I feel strongly that some parties have been hyping this up to further their own agenda, Stop the War as mentioned above being an obvious one. There was an edited version of Eric Bogle's response circulated on Facebook by fRoots which clearly seemed to have selectively quoted to make him seem wronged and upset about it.

It's pretty clear from Eric Bogle's FULL response that while he doesn't particularly care for this cover, and agrees it does dilute the original message somewhat, he DOESN'T take particular offence and DOESN'T view it as glorifying war... His final conclusion is "if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's"

Is all this grubbing around to find a stick to beat the RBL with really a noble cause?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM

"The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion"

fair enough.. but you tell me any other state religion where I could have bought a pint of strong local drought cider
and a bag of scratchings for less than a quid..

Shame our local club was closed down...

It was friendly and welcoming...

Don't think I ever saw a single fight there...

In fact quite a safe environment for lefty pacifists like me & the mrs...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM

.. having said that.....

About 15 years ago on a visit to Taunton, we thought we'd give their club a try for an evening pint..

We were stopped in our tracks by a closed security door and intercom system. [maybe even CCTV cameras?]
The jobsworth in charge refused to accept our memberships & credentials**
as valid enough, so refused to let us in...???

[**Me being ex civil service, and my dad ex airforce national service]

Seemed a right bunch of touchy snobs.. maybe they were officers ???

Then again, with the barracks near town, maybe they were over paranoid, and we looked too much like undesirables...???

But that was Taunton...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:14 PM

"A pint of strong local drought cider"

LOL! A bit of an unintended funny there, PFR? 😆👍


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:45 PM

jack campin, the british legion is the home of many folk clubs,and provides a stable and friendly environment for many folk clubs it might make you puke,
but shall i tell you something, you make me puke much more, you asked for a personal attack upon me[ which had been removed] to be re posted., that is a really nasty thing to do
the british legion has inadvertently given much publicity to a folk song, they are not much different from some folk song collectors [ eg sharp ] who popularised edited folk songs.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

The Royal British Legion (RBL), sometimes referred to as the The British Legion or The Legion, is a British charity providing financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.
i fail to see how that can be interpreted as promoting militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:19 PM

GSS
And how does nicking someone's work, perverting his message and intent without the minimal courtesy of asking his permission first fit into that? Oh yes, because some of the military got a decided liking for doing that wholesale, pushing other people around for any reason and none, "because there's a war on", and cannot let it go. It's part of what's called militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

What Eric bogle wrote in its entirety via fRoots:

Apparently Joss Stone's version of my song "No Man's Land" has polarised opinions. I usually don't comment publicly on other people's versions of my songs, but many of you have e-mailed me about this matter and seem genuinely upset about it, so I am sending you the following in reply to some of the questions I have been asked………please note that I will be entering into no further correspondence regarding this matter, I don't want to spend the rest of my life e-mailing on my computer, so you will have to accept (or reject ) what I have said below and leave it there…….! ! The copyright for "No Man's Land/The Green Fields of France" is held by my UK Publisher,! Domino Publishing, who are ultimately responsible for approving applications to record this song. When an artist wishes to record "No Man's Land" they must apply for a mechanical license to do so from the relevant UK agency, and pay a licensing fee. Permission to record is more or less automatic, especially if, as is the case with this song, it has been recorded before. At no stage in this process am I, the composer, involved. Generally speaking, the first I know of any new recording is when I see any subsequent royalties from the recording appearing on my royalty statements. ! !
When the artist(s) in question records the cover version of the song, they can, and often do, rework ! the song as to be almost unrecognisable from the original version. This is especially true in Jazz music, and is generally regarded as an acceptable creative exercise by the artist(s). Although! the publisher and/or composer could take legal action if they feel that the original essence of the song has been irrevocably altered and very much to the song's detriment, this very rarely happens. The bottom line is that so long as royalties are paid, any wounded artistic feelings are usually put aside.! !
So then, to the most asked questions about this affair:! !!
Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention. As to the musical arrangement, it's really about whatever floats your musical boat. I would have thought a strong mostly acoustic version would have done a better job of getting the message across, but that's just my personal preference, and I'm a bit of an old fart folkie. But then to do an acoustic version and include all four verses and choruses would have made the song nearly 7 minutes long, making it of doubtful commercial appeal in today's modern music market, given that the average attention span of that market's consumers is rarely more than three minutes or so. There's not much doubt that the shortened, up-tempo, bluesy version that Joss does will probably appeal to a much broader cross-section of the listening public, certainly to those who did not know the song existed until they heard Joss's version. ! !
Is the strong anti-war message in the original song diminished in this recording? Yes, missing some crucial verses does not help. But then this diminishment is only in the eyes (or ears) of people who have heard the original version of the song. Those who have not heard the original cannot make the same comparisons or judgements. They must take Joss's version on it's own merits and make their own interpretation. ! !
Does it follow then that this version glorifies war instead of condemning it? - No, in my opinion it certainly doesn't glorify it, but doesn't condemn it either, it just sort of starts off promisingly enough and then turns into a sing- along chorus type of song. Sentimentalising perhaps, but not glorifying.! !!
Will me or my publisher be suing Joss Stone, Jeff Beck or the British Legion? — No, you have to be joking. I would have wished for a version of my song that could have been more true to my original intention in writing the song, but if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Yes, GSS, it was posted above. Eric doesn't have much choice but to put up with it, but his being shafted doesn't alter the fundamental point that what the RBL did was thoroughly dishonest. Much like claiming what they are about isn't militaristic. I don't see any other group parading with flags and military bands - not even the BNP get away with that lot.

There is no identity or even parity between being of the military and being militaristic. The difference is one of role in society: a militarist wants the military to be given superiority, a military man should, these days, recognise that military power being a continuation of government policy by other means, then he is a servant of society. The quid pro quo recognised in the Armed Forces Covenant is that as the veteran (of which I am one) has set his normal rights aside in the interest of that service, then if there are consequences, he should receive compensating priority, which sadly isn't actually happening, yet again.

In WWII, for good reasons, the military were giiven priority, and many of them were utterly unable to give up the power afterwards. Those of us of the post-war generation all knew "the Major", claiming a rank he was no longer entitled to (only an Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshall or Air Marshall never retires, and on retirement an officer returns to civilian life with the titles he has earned). The RBL gives veterans an excessive sense of privilege, as if being in the military always and in everything entitles them to rule the roost. That's not the kind of nation I want, it's not the kind of democracy I signed up to defend, and although it's far from true of all, it's true of enough as to make any sense of charity from my side somewhat limited. For me, the military's finest hour was when Cromwell overturned the whole house of cards, Monarchy, corrupt parliament and all - and refused to become a king himself. The military must be the servant of the Nation, and not of whatever demiurge has last dreamed up the megalomanic idea that "I am the State and the State is me".
One of the things which makes the UK distinctive is that the Monarchy has actually found a way to be a figurehead without falling into that trap. It's still not true of much of the Mad in Chelsea bunch, who haven't got the message that privilege is earned, not inherited. Thankfully that's no longer true of the military, where the commanders of small units (and on occasion even larger ones) these days are as likely to have risen from the ranks as to bear a direct commission. Consequently, there is hope for the RBL, it s slowly unbending (for example in the question of Poppy Fascism) but the speed and will is still far from what should attract our admiration.
And as we have seen, sometimes they just don't get it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:07 PM

Eric does not seem so bothered that he will not accept the royalties. He certainly does not, imho, suggest he feels he is being "shafted".

As to your personal opinion of the British Legion I can say nothing.

The fact is that it is a registered charity with aims to help ex-members of the armed services.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:09 PM

Musket: you have chosen to quote only part of what I said re the Joss Stone version: in the rest of my post I acknowledged that there are people other than Eric Bogle who CAN do justice to this song - but that they may be in the minority of those who attempt it. Nothing odd about that.
Several people have mentioned June Tabor's singing of it, which is excellent. (And others have mentioned Sandy Denny and Maddy Prior)
NOWHERE did I say that ONLY the composer of a song should be the only person to sing it, Stop twisting things!
This version is just horrible (not just omitting verses, but the so-called "musical" arrangement.
And not seeking Eric's permission is indefensible.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:12 PM

Just watched the Joss Stone video. Couldn't make it till the end.
Sacrilege.
Stone Joss.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 04:50 AM

I wasn't twisting it Tattiie Bogle. I picked up, in context, your claim that Joss Stone should write her own. That logic purely for her? Why can't she sing it but a retired social worker with a voice as flat as a fart and his finger in his ear can stand up in a pub and hope everybody is impressed? Not her greatest work for that matter, but I have heard it sung badly far more often than good. I wasn't too impressed with hindsight with my own rendition at a folk club last week.

I suppose one of the saddest parts of this is that two musicians, a singer and a guitarist I greatly admire have released what is, artistically, about the worst day in the recording studio they have had.

That's apart from any debate over RBL motives, belittling a powerful message in a powerful song or copyright cum royalities debate.

You know how Mudcat webpages have "in context" ads? Well mine the other day invited me to download it from iTunes........


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

I agree the omossion of the last verse is ofensive. But more importantly, as a piece of music I find it somewhere between a hair shampoo ad and a car crash, in other words, abysmla!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

in my opinion The British Legion are a charity that look after ex servicemen, the people that promote militarism Are many of the the elected politicians,and on occasions the uk government, the British Legion are a charity that look after ex ervicemen, they do not recruit people to join the army do they? rahere please answer that question, do they recruit people to join the army.
I have signed the petition.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Two issues here:-

The actual quality of the singing/arrangement.

The issue of leaving out/changing the lyrics/message.

The second is the most important.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM

I managed to listen to about three lines of "And it's Hi Ho Willie McBride and away we go".
The petition is a waste of time to my personal protest will be to send the British Legion the price of the CD along with a letter saying I couldn't gear to buy this egregious piece of shite but I do support the work the Legion does in helping those who have been injured and families bereaved due to the misguided military adventures of British governments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

I'll suggest for your consideration...

Very few singers, including Eric Bogle, can perform a genuinely captivating heartfelt rendition of this song
because it is long and melodically repetitious.
It'll take a very special singer to overcome these difficulties.....???

Despite it's intended "powefull anti war message",
maybe it's not a very good song in the first place.
Not a lot of 'protest songs were ever actually musically any good ???.
Perhaps most were better read, debated, and chanted in unison on protest marches
than listened to for entertainment..???


Still, carry on getting your saggy old thermal long johns in an over exagerated twist if you must do.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM

"Not a very good song in the first place" Everyone has their own opinions and taste right enough but as a songwriter by hobby I just want to say that I'd love to come up with a song that "not good"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM

FWIW, I don't think No Man's Land is one of Bogle's best, but that's not the point. Neither is the appalling lash up which constitutes the vocal and the arrangement.

What is not beside the point is that the BL, or which ever record producer they appointed, took a song which is pointedly and uncompromising anti-miltarist, and ripped the guts out of it. They turned an anti-war song into an apology for war and that is unforgiveable.

I've just given a FWIW, so here's a BTW. I've read Eric Bogle's thoughts on the matter (see above) and can only say that he is being a lot more magnanimous than I would have been under similar circumstances. But I wonder what he makes of that blackboard slogan at the end of the video; the one which says one million men and women from Britain and the British Empire died in the first world war. I couldn't agree more. It is an appalling statistic. But what about all the other people; the other allied forces and the men and women on the opposing side?

Like the poet said, "All soldiers look the same in the grave".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

I've just taken another look at the Eric Bogle Youtube video. To add insult to injury, it was preceded by an advert for the Joss Stone version, followed by a banner proclaiming the JS as the "official" British Legion single for 2014.

Somebody questioned whether William McBride really existed. The Bogle video shows his gravestone. It says he was a member of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Army no 21406, and that he died on 10th February 1916. That is all. It doesn't his birth date, but Eric could have got that from other sources.

The point is that he was another living sensate human being, who was cut down at the tender age of 19, for no more reason than he wore an army uniform, and that the powers that be on both sides regarded him and his kind as just another piece of cannon fodder. He now lies in mute silent witness to the horror and obscenity not just of the first world war, but of all the wars that have happened since.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

Musket, I entirely agree with you about the people whom one might not want to hear singing that song: I have also experienced the "heart sink" feeling referred to by DTM when certain people start singing it in a session. As for Joss Stone: even if she had done all the verses, it is pretty unlikely that she would have done it in "folkie style". I was not suggesting that only Eric Bogle could sing it, nor that anyone else who did should slavishly copy his style: but as others have said, there are only so many good versions out there (all a matter of taste, I know, as to what is "good"!)
And as for writing her own song: I saw a TV interview with her by the sea of poppies at the Tower of London, where she was saying how emotional she found it. Plenty of other people have written their own songs about WW1, from my great-grandfather who served with the Gordon Highlanders in France, to myself, and many others in between: so why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song??


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

Somewhere about late 1977, I heard June Tabor's version played on the folk program in Wash DC. I was transfixed.... various local people learned it, and it was sung reverently around here on special occasions, with only minor alterations that simply reflected different singers' ideas of pace and emphasis. It was a fine, moving song which, no matter what one thinks about 'accuracy' or exact title.

Naturally, it became an obvious vehicle for other recording 'artists' to take a ride on, and it's almost de rigueur for many to "make a song your own".....well, maybe... for some songs. Bogle's intent, as he makes clear, has been severely distorted in many recent versions. But he also realizes it is far beyond his control now. The list of songs which have been atrociously mangled is longer than any of our arms...(I have 70 versions of "Hard Times Come Again No More" ... a few of which are good, a few decent.... and many that make me go "Huh?")

The Men They Couldn't Hang don't 'get' the tune... which changes the feel of the song. The Dropkick Murphys come closer to MY taste, but still pace it awkwardly and do a few odd things to the melody in places. So? At least they don't sanitize the message and change the basic intent. If the song is intended for an audience which may have no knowledge of the original, why not just write a new song that says what they wish? Oh- right... talent & ability andde gustibus non disputandum.

There's little that can be done except to occasionally sing it closer to the way Bogle intended and try to expose offenders to 'other' recorded versions. Those who get it will ...get it... and perhaps do better afterwards. Petitions are probably a waste of time in these cases, but *shrug*... a little publicity might raise a few consciousnesses.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGzLlTYgv-E


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

"why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song?"

.,,.

The simple answer to that is that she is a singer, not a writer. A few people manage to be both: but there is nor earthly reason that the talents should go together in any particular individual; and indeed they rarely do.

So the suggestion that she should do so is, with all respect, IMO a little silly. Might as well suggest that Enrico Caruso should have written his own operas.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM

The wiki for "No Man's Land" lists approx 60 official recorded cover versions...

Then there's who knows's how many amateur youtube attempts..

If I was a seriously good singer contemplating doing my own version,
I'd consider it my 'duty' to research as many existing recordings as possible
to get a feel for what works, and what dilutes or destroys the intent of the song.

My suspicion is that most of those recordings may be over reverential hackneyed plodding dirges..

At the end of the research process, I might end up so sick of the song
I'd give up and just walk away from it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:27 PM

GSS
You've not defined what militarism is, if you disagree with mine. When you stage parades and pretty uniforms and prey on emotions with brass bands in as blatant a way as this sets out to, then you have a responsibility for creating an image which is not that of the reality of soldiering, which is predominantly boredom and bullshit interrupted by periods of huge pressure. Once upon a time, that last was expressed in terms of fugue, as terror or worse. But now we train our troops not to give in to the red fog of war or simple terror, and that requires a certain intelligence. The problem is that the RBL approach is predicated in the days before this was true, when conscripted men of whatever rank only did what they were instructed to by an officer, whose first lesson was actually the opposite of the practice, that their best adviser was their platoon sergeant. Nowadays you'll not infrequently find that's been simplified, with sergeants actually commanding platoons and on occasion RSMs commanding battalions. The best man does the job and we no longer allow forelock-tugging. And so what the RBL does is now counter-productive.

The modern military requires men and women who are honest to themselves as an essential core element of their very nature. The old days of drill sergeants whipping up hysteria before teaching killing have gone, a soldier who kills must know why. He must be ready to act as needed at the right time, and that can mean being ready to kill instantly - but it also means being ready to hold one's hand, and to be able to differentiate between the two needs. He's bound by written Rules of Engagement, and is held to them.

Yes, an essential element of soldiering is a search to be the best, and that starts in drill, in having one's kit in good and proper order at any time and in precise control of oneself. It builds a core for a correct response when the pressure comes on, in things like the standard form of orders, so you can function as a commander when you're at your limit, when you've had no sleep for three days and you're on the edge of breakdown as a result. The training teaches you where those limits lie, and how to not go past them, either in yourself or in those under you.

But that is a matter of professionalism, and it needs not stop with the military. When I joined WEU as a senior civilian officer, we were upgrading from a dipolomatic thinktank, and the question arose within the civilian staff what their role working with the military HQ we built alongside us could be. I taught them that their job was every whit as essential as the military planners, that they should not think to be any less than them, lest by that weakness they create the gap by which someone is killed. That is a huge difference from the MOD, and a bigger one still from the 9-5ers the EU put into our jobs when they thought they could do better. Never once was the question even hinted at about worrying about working hours, the job was only done when it was done, and WEU's theoretically non-executive grades routinely carried the responsibilities and authority of an executive grade. Heck, for most of the time I as senior accountant was one, and I'd never have it any different! Just the same as in the Forces, we were the best and knew it by proving it every day. And simply demonstrating that you're not a slovenly rabble doesn't count in my book, Europe is full of toy soldiers, who find it difficult to make it stick when it matters. The RBL encourages the former, not the latter.

So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms. It's an anachronism, and the bluster shows it. At least the return parades for forces coming back from campaign don't shoehorn them into that in the way they did when I was one of them, no sudden need to bull boots last attended to months or years before, you take us as we are and no other.

However, that does not deal with what we have here. The real reason for this hoo-hah is to make our political leaders look good by wrapping themselves in a form of Patriotism they've rarely earned. I make a specific exception for the 50 who have done their time, but only one Minister is among their number, Ian Duncan Smith: in the Labour Government which took us to war, not a single Cabinet Minister had served.

The only other reason for these pretty parades is tourism. My Dad used to beg to go to the Royal Marines barracks at Eastleigh "to see the soldiers jump", nigh on a hundred years ago. Kids will be kids, and throng the streets of London for the Lord Mayors Show, much the same. But we need adults, not kids, and we do not have time to build that kind of self-awarenesss.

Our Continental cousins wonder about us in this militarism - I know because I worked with them and had to explain it. We still live in a world where the Germans are castigated three genrations after the Nazis left power, and where we seem to wallow in mawkish necrophilia only beaten by the Victorian fascination with death - they at least had some excuse for it. Is this some kind of death-wish, or a paranoid fascination with the dead, the way mountains of flowers appear near newsworthy death, but not near an ordinary death? Or is it a form of desperately seeking one's fifteen minutes of fame by surrogacy?

We see today war widows getting something they were promised but which a good number did not receive. Yet it's spun as a huge victory for them, whereas the Treasury has got away with NOT granting it to those who gave up waiting, it's not backdated, leaving one wondering whether the Armed Forces Covenant is worth the paper it's written on. And anything which allows the political world to look good under those circumstances is to be castigated. Tonight they'll all be on parade in the RBL Festival of Remembrance in the Albert Hall, and tomorrow the Cenotaph, mostly . I've just looked up the running order: Pointless Celebrities. Strictly Come Dancing. Doctor Who. National Lottery Live RBL Festival of Remembrance. News. Match of the Day. The first summed it up, I fear, and Joss Stone is one of the most pointless.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:29 PM

Yo Tattie Bogle. Reading some posts, I admit I was looking for fault. Your comment seemed to stand out. If I took it out of context I apologise.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:34 PM

And guess who's got their ad showing on the Mudcat index page.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM

Great record and great guitar solo - hard life innit!!!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

F@ck knows why I'm doing this but I've listened to so many versions of this song since yesterday
my mind is starting to play odd tricks...

I'm now starting to get earworm resonances of "The Unicorn" by The Bachelors, Terry Jacks "Seasons In The Sun"
and weirdest and most inexplicable of all, Shirley Bassey's "Kiss me honey honey (kiss me)"...!!!???

Hmmm.. is there an upbeat calypso version of "No Man's Land"...???

I think I need a break for a mug of tea....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

Fred there were various William McBrides who died in the war. Several of whom died in 1916. None of the gravestones match the details in the song as can be checked on the Commonwealth War Graves site. The grave you mention doesn't name his as William as it only has an initial and doesn't mention what age he is. As far as I have read Bogle wrote the song in a hotel room in Germany whilst touring with Hamish Imlach. He was probably doing it from memory but for some reason had remembered the name William McBride (perhaps simply because it rhymed with graveside) so don't you think rather than the song being about one actual idividual it is more likely to be about all the fallen. As per the unnamed warrior at the Cenotaph? The details in the song probably have more to do with what rhymed and scanned rather than hard facts!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:59 PM

The point is it does not matter who sings what or how. This is "the" song and there is nothing you can do about it.

If I were the British Legion I would tell all the whingers to feck off, shove their mean spirited petition up their sanctimonious arses, and let those who choose to make a donation or to buy the tune to do so in peace.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 06:52 PM

There is no soldier buried at the Cenotaph, the word is a construction from Greek bits meaning "empty grave". Whether they mean by that the occupant was an avatar of Jesus, or if it is simply waiting for a suitable occupant, I don't know. The grave of the unknown warrior is in Westminster Abbey, and scattered over the world.
As far as Morris-ey's concerned, nobody's telling you not to buy your poppies. What we're pointing out is that alongside it is a rather nasty package which we should have long outgrown, and that as ever our government says one thing and does another. The day we bow to such sanctimoniousness is the day we cease to be English.
And for the smile, in Afghanistan they object to people planting poppies: here, the Telegraph mythologises David and Samantha Cameron planting "the last 2 poppies" whilst round the corner, people were still being flogged them at £25 a pop to plant their own little bit on glory. Not to mention what he's up to in this picture...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM

I love the cries of Sacrilege! here. Personally I've always found the song pretty sacrilegious in itself (see this classic piece of 'catlore in which I was rounded upon for daring to express this heresy back in 2012: No-man's Land - Rap Version). Divested of its cultish anti-war 'message', No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people for whom the reality of war has been an unfortunate necessity of human culture across the millennia, as the history books will attest. Militarism is an integral aspect of that reality, replete with its own tradition and folklore, thus most of us can wear our poppy with pride - with thanks to the likes of Willie McBride; military men who gave their lives in a good faith that remains sacred. He would, no doubt, be appalled to find his name disrespected by peacenik songwriters. The rest is, quite simply, unsayable.

My choice of Remembrance Sunday folksongs will be Peter Bellamy singing his setting of Kipling's My Boy Jack followed by Dick Gaughan's epic rendering of Hamish Henderson's The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily. Chances are I'll have Shirley & Dolly Collins' Plains of Waterloo in there too.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM

You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
Bogle wrote it because he is against war and (presumably) finds W.W.1 the obscenity most of us do - what a bastard eh - how dare he interfere with our entertainment!!!
The best way to "hold sacred the memories of those who gave their lives" (for whatever reason) is to make sure it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why
Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:00 AM

Thanks for the correction Rahere but I take it you get the point I was making to the other poster. Blandiver how can you possibly know what any of the William McBrides buried in the war graves would have thought about Bogle's sentiment after they had experienced the horrors of the war? You are simply projecting your own views on to someone else who may or may have not been a specific person. Bogle at least in the song gives his views and wonders what the soldier would think. You've already seem to have made up your mind that you know what the soldier thinks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

to make sure it doesn't happen again and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why

It will happen again, Jim - again, and again, and again - and for the very best & worst of reasons as we struggle towards some ultimate enlightenment where we might, at last, live in peace. Until such a time (someway off yet I fear!) be respectful of the sacrifice of those to whom we owe our present freedoms, however so imperfect they may be.

Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you

The ultimate comfort is the mawkish sentiment of the anti-war songs under discussion here; it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality. It will not be washed away by the crocodile tears of a dozen or so peacenik folkies in their self-appointed moral superiority, for its measure is the millennia of aching sorrow that such sacrifice was not only necessary but risen to. That's why I wear a poppy. A simple gesture to a reality I cannot begin to comprehend.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

"You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
but how is it different from Sharps Sanitisation
here we go, Sharps bowdlerisation worked however because he got the songs into primary schools, all of us sang them until they were taken out of the school curriculum in the 1960s, so they were popularised and we did go onto find the original versions.
if the song is sung at rembrance day parades etc, there is a chance that some people might stumble across the original, however if a campaign is maintained and pressure is put upon the British legion TO RE INCLUDE THE MISSING VERSE, and they do so that would be even better,which is why i have signed the petition, yours Dick Miles[Talentless Moron]


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

"So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms"
mealy mouthed?,if you dont like mealy mouthed, here we go, you are a feckin misinformed ignoramus, the british legion does not promte militrism our elected politicians do that plus the army recruiting organisations , the British legion sole purpose is to look after exservicemen, REMEMBRANCE DAY SERVICES ARE NOT ATTEMPTS TO PROMOTE MILITARISM, they are about rembering those who died in wars.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM

No, I still feel that's a bit complacent, Jim.
Those of us who disagree don't stuff our message down everybody's throats with an incessant barrage of propaganda for months on end. Is it really news that this year like every one for close on a hundred past the Army's having an amble down Whitehall and civic dignitaries are closing roads down for miles around in London? Instead, we have to justify our criticisms in things like the thread on Oh! What a Lovely War! when the facts are there in black and white.
For fifty years, my peers and our predecessors brought the politicians of Europe together to learn that jaw jaw is better than war war. However, the big-heads thought they could do it themselves, and in a bare ten years have returned us to the condition where, in Gorbachev's words, "Failure to achieve security in Europe would make the continent irrelevant in world affairs," because it is becoming "an arena of political upheaval, of competition for the spheres of influence, and finally of military conflict."
This is NOT the legacy we left the European Commission. Instead of mutual cooperation and respect, their infighting has set us back forty years. And that is the fruit of those Don Maclean described, "They are not listening, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."

So, when in twenty years time we're at war once more within Europe, remember this from someone who was entrusted to keep and hold the peace, and did so: although it is necessary to prepare for war if you wish to maintain it, taking that as a justification for war is a betrayal of the objective. I don't give a monkeys who's causing it, trying to see whose balls are the bigger simply reduces the world to a bunch of fucking simians - or worse, because even Bonobos use negotoiation to resolve their problems. Perhaps Cameron and Merkel should be locked in a room together with nothing but aphrodisiacs in the ventilation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM

Rahere
furthermore if my parents had not fought against Hitler in the second world war, I would not be here to post, remembrance day services are not about promoting militarism ,neither is the BritishLegion about promoting militarism it is about remembering those who died and caring for ex servicemen, which is why the last verse of the song should be included.
People like Jack Campin and yourself who try to promote an extreme opinion "The British Legion promotes militarism" are not helping this campaign to get the missing verse included.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

Re., various comments about war happening again and again and again. Did nobody else notice that, on the eve of Rememberance Sunday, Mikhail Gorbachev, the ex-premier of the USSR, made a speech claiming that we are on the brink of a new cold war?

When will we ever learn?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:05 AM

This just in: The British Legion admit they insisted on the key change on verse three.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

When will we ever learn?

We won't. That's the point. That's why we need to stand ready.

Hell, at least it was new cold war and not nuclear war as I heard it on the Radio 4 news last night over the road noise on the M61!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

Just an observation about Eric Bogle's claim that NML would have been too long for a single. He's obviously forgotten the Animals' version of House of The Rising Sun, which went on for around 6 minutes, and proved an enormous hit. Not being a pop fan I couldn't put a name to any other epic blockbusters, but I'd have thought there were plenty 55which broke the three minute sounds barrier by a similar margin.

Also, without listening to it again and suffering another coniption fit, does the JS version not use the chorus after every verse?

Surely, if time were such an important factor, it would have been better to drop a couple of choruses?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:37 AM

"it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality."
No - it does not - it deals with war in retrospect - nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with sentiment - sentimentality maybe, sentiment is a human reaction.
Bogle treats the subject from another point of view altogether, with his 'Waltzing Matilda' - both have their merits.
The problem with Willie McBride is it is oversung by people who don't give a **** one way or the other.
Your sneery dismissal of 'peacenic folkies who, at least make an effort to make their views known, is an indication that your own activities are (once more) confined to the armchair and your poppies - easier to knock something down somebody else has built than build something yourself (again)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:02 AM

Jim - a word in your shell-like if I may...

In expressing my opinions in this, or any other matter, I so so without recourse to personal insults, or personal comments per se (unless sorry provoked). Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?

Please, stick to the discussion, huh? Keep the personal stuff to yourself.

*

Oversung? My God! There's an over statement! I haven't heard the new version (and hope I never do) but... imagine... this day... there are people out there - a lot of people - more people than there ever will be Folkies - who are hearing this thing for the first time. Imagine that....

Naturally feel the same way about The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, but without it we wouldn't have had Ron Baxter's masterful Who'll Go to Morecambe? - which is less a parody than am alchemical transfiguration of something base into pure gold.

The reality is, we live in world where shit happens : one of the civilian horrors of war are the anti-war songs. As good a reason as any to stay out of folk clubs in November I'd say!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM

I feel that this resolute cynicism, and doubt as to the sincerity of others' motives, do you little credit, Sean.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:13 AM

"Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?"
I respond to your permanent (apparently) dismissive attitude towards other opinions - you do it all the time, as Mike has just pointed out.
Don't be surprised when others take it personally and respond to it appropriately
I'm afraid I find Ron Baxter's piss-take a little less than masterful, to say the least, but I am rather fond of Fintan Vallely's parody, which doesn't set out to denigrate the song, rather, it laments a song sung to death
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Although I thinks that this version is awful, I feel that at the end of the day, you have to go along with the views from the writer.
Personally, I prefer me singing it in my living room.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

GSS
Are you a veteran? I at least got my mush in the Stasi files as someone they'd like to have an accounting with. Yes, according to the Armed Forces Covenant I'm a veteran too, but that doesn't mean I still have to obey orders to toe the line.
I'm actually far more aligned with tonight's celebration in Berlin, as that was a little something I did some pushing on from way before it happened. Ending the Cold War is something I had quite a hand in, not just politically but as a human being, making certain the former Warsaw Pact officers and diplomats turning up like new boys in school discovered we were actually normal.
That, I think, is the difference. Germany has something to celebrate, looking forwards positively. We have something black in this, and it's unhealthy for a nation and it's unhealthy for the individuals. The motive then is not the motive now : it's fallen into the hands of fundraisers, whose motives are more to do with the cut they get than what they are claiming: just look at their logo to see what their approach to business is...and it's not going to improve.


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Subject: no man's land (new)
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:55 PM

What A load of rubbish it is. What do you think.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

am i a veteran?a veteran of what?am i a veteran of suffering mudcat posters, yes.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Marje
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 03:59 PM

To return to the topic of the song, I've now had a listen to part of the Joss Stone version. I couldn't stand more than a verse or so of it , so I never got as far as the bowdlerised bit. It's a truly dreadful rendition - over-orchestrated, cheesy, messy - and why did anyone think it was a good idea to choose a singer who favours a fake-American, "soul" style of vocals? Utterly inappropriate, and the result is simply a horrible noise, with neither the tune nor the lyrics easy to discern.

Yesterday's Independent carried a report about this controversy, and quoted Bogle's reservations about this version of his song.

Marje


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:54 PM

Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do) is not the point. The song was written for a purpose and with an intended meaning - that is the point.

Eric Bogle has been very diplomatic and forgiving in his response to this outrage but the rest of us should react with anger at this bastardisation of a beautiful and emotive song and the trampling underfoot of its message. Leaving aside the wholly inappropriate Rock/Pop arrangement; only an artist who had complete contempt for the meaning of the lyrics, for their intended effect and for the writer of those lyrics would have accepted a commission to perform this disgracefully sentimentalised and censored version of a moving and thought provoking anti-war anthem. Joss Stone and Jeff Beck have exposed their complete lack of integrity in agreeing to produce this travesty and the Royal British Legion have shown their own antipathy towards the sentiments behind the song. If they didn't like an anti-war message then they shouldn't have used an anti war anthem. There are plenty of songs glorifying and/or setimentalising the sacrifice of war dead they could have chosen (the Horst Wessel song has its English language counterparts) but this song was supposed to be about the futility of the First World War and the failure to learn its lessons. Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

"Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do)...

etc.. etc.. etc.. and all the rest of this overstated over-reacting hyperbolic bollox...

Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
"

FACT:

My mrs sat in front of the telly watching the BBC Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance on catch up this tea time...
[dialogue as best remembered, Mrs punkfolkrocker in italics]

"Oh, what's this song, this is really good, its so sad..
Rewind and play it again.
"

After 2nd viewing she's in tears.

I'm fully aware of this thread, so I ask her a few brief questions while the TV is on pause.

"Do you really not know this song ?" - "No, what is it ?"

"I'll tell you in a minute. Why are you crying"

"It's such an emotional song, about those poor young soldiers"

"Do you think it's a pro or anti war song ?"

"It's obviously anti war, of course it is.. they died so young in horrible conditions"

"Don't you think she over sang it ?, she's a bit histrionic in places"

" no, shes good, she's emotional, I liked her. Why are you asking all these questions, put the telly back on.."

I quickly explained about the protest petition and general uproar on this thread..

" seriously ?, oh, people can be so ridiculous..."

I fell asleep during the lord's prayer for most of the rest of the TV program...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:59 PM

Did you die quick [well?] and did you die clean
Or Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene


Oh yeah, I can see how that could be glorifying war...

I didn't like her version, but mainly because I don't like the way she sings...trying too hard. Any attention the song gets has to be good. As Mrs PFR's example shows, tastes vary.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:16 PM

Jeri - afterwards, she insisted I find her the original full length Bogle version on youtube..

Which I suspect may be happening in many many more households throughout the UK...??????????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM

I thought so too. The attention is good.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

Mrs PFR carries the day! Now—what else is new?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Whilst collecting my Guardian from the newsagents this morning, I noticed that the full page Mirror headline states that the BBC has refused to add Joss Stone's song to its play list .... perhaps Mirror journalists read Mudcat?
Derek


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:16 AM

According the DM, the BBC is not playing the song, but for precisely what reasons is not said. I'd be happy if the BBC DJs refused to handle it on the grounds of taste or whatever. But somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, now we know. Derek Schofield reads the Guardian, and buys it from his local newsagents.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM

I have listened to the Bogle version which I dislike intensly, thank godness for the Joss Stone & Jeff Beck version.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:41 AM

But without the Bogle version, there wouldn't have been a Beck/Stone version.

Still, it's given most of the song a much wider audience.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Jon Heslop
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:55 AM

It's an insult! An insult to the writer, an insult to the listener and most of all, an insult to the millions of war dead of every nation.
We have to ask why the producer, the artists and the whole marketing/publicity machine allowed it to be released in this form?
I suspect the answer lies in making an acceptable "product" that will not upset people or politicians who don't want to be reminded of the fact that since the outbreak of the Crimean War, Britain has been continually involved in bloodshed somewhere in the world.
To quote historian A.J.P. Taylor,
"The purpose of political activity is to provide peace and prosperity; and in this every statesman failed for whatever reason." (The origins of the Second World War)
So to airbrush out the last verse, the whole reason for the song, because it does not align with current political dogma is an insult. Whether poltiticians, the makers of war, like it or not it has happened "again and again and again and again" and still is.
Perhaps any government contemplating war should take time out to visit the huge British and Commonwealth war cemetary at Tyn Cot near Ypres and the nearly as huge German one at Langermark nearby. Then visit the D-Day and Normandy cemetaries, British, Commonwealth US and German, (Most poignant is the Polish one just of the road between Caen and Falaise)and then decide.
Sorry, I've digressed a bit but the whole thing makes me angry.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:59 AM

It was a crime to resist invasion by tyrannical aggressors?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 08:39 AM

"It was a crime to resist invasion by tyrannical aggressors?"
It was a crime to send millions of young men, little more than children, (some of them legally considered children), ill-trained, ill-armed, ill-led and ill informed, to die in the mud of Europe for a squabble over Empire - little more than a family spat between monarchs.
As for tyrannical aggressors, 'Gallant Little Belgium', one of the major excused for entering the conflict, had, a few years earlier, systematically slaughtered somewhere between 10 to 15 million of its Congolese subjects in pursuit of rubber - that was one of the "noble causes" over which World War One was fought.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 10:51 AM

Britain was treaty bound to defend Belgium.
Belgium was invades by a ruthless aggressor and suffered atrocities and massacres of its ordinary people and children.
They were headed our way.
We sent the army we had.
Yes it was hopelessly outnumbered and forced to fight a desperate fighting retreat, but the invaders were stopped.
It was after that retreat when all hopes of a short war were dashed and defeat a real possibility that there was the greatest surge of volunteers.

They understood the cause quite well.
It was not in vain.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:01 AM

The BBC in conjunction with the History Department of the Open University made a documentary series about the war.
Summing up in the final episode the presenter, Jeremy Paxman, made this statement to camera.

57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, "
Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile.
It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this.

Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:05 AM

The by and large bit included firing squads, white feathers and propaganda.

💤.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

There were a trivial number of firing squads compared to the scale of the thing.
White feathers were nothing to do with government but came from ordinary people.
My grandfather was given one on his wedding day although a serving sailor.

What propaganda?
Belgium and France really were invaded, atrocities were committed and Britain was threatened.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:16 AM

"Britain was treaty bound to defend Belgium."
So Britain was treaty bound to defend a murderous imperial power capable of slaughtering 15 million of its subjects - and that why millons of British lads lost their lives - now there's a cause worth dying for - or were all those "gallant little Belgium" posters just a con to persuade them to join up - can't have it both ways - Belgium was either one of the all those lads were sent to die for, or it wasn't - what's it to be?
The "massacres" that took place in Belgium were deliberately exaggerated, and if they hadn't been, they were minuscule compared to what the Belgian regime had done in the Congo, yet the world didn't twitch an eyebrow.
Mark Twain wrote an account of what was happening in the Congo, and was castigated as a leftie crank for doing so.
"They understood the cause quite well."
You have been given counts of soldiers returning from the front disillusioned - you ignore them, describing those making such statements as liars
You have been given account of the cons and "white feather" blackmail that took place - you ignore it.
They understood and supported the war o fervently that the authorities were left with no alternative than to introduce enforced conscription - that's how well they understood the cause and were prepared to die for it.
It was an Imperial war over world domination - nothing more, glorifying it as anything else is flag-wagging jingoism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

Historians have access to the accounts of tens of thousands of soldiers.
Ones like yours were not typical.
The atrocities committed in Belgium and France were real.
The threat to us was real.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:28 AM

There is nevertheless a strong feeling of macho patriotism in this Year's Poppy Campaign. Refrain from buying a poppy if you dare.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

my observation was that most people in the streets and supermarkets were not wearing one.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

my observation was that most people in the streets and supermarkets were not wearing one.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

feel that this resolute cynicism, and doubt as to the sincerity of others' motives, do you little credit, Sean.

Sorry, Michael, just after nigh on 40 years of being bullied by the weep-along-or-else sentiments of this song (and others) it's hard not to be. I got in Folk because I wanted listen to Traditional Songs, not to be preached at by politicos, lefties & peaceniks, or be put in a position of having to quietly retire least I was found wanting by the more vocal members of folk's revisionist ernestocrasy.      

For the record, at heart I am an Anarchist who longs for a world of loving peace in which scientific reality & cultural diversity are the cause of human unity, and all is green, pleasant, a-political, pastoral and secular with the Advancement of the Individual being our primary cause. To that end I address my craft, but not to the extent that I don't recognise such dreams are, alas, some way off yet. God knoweth, they were even further off 100 years ago in that past that was well and truly another country.

I'll go there presently, sit quietly among the gravestones and listen to those songs I mentioned earlier on my Nokia C-3 : Peter Bellamy singing his setting of Kipling's My Boy Jack and Dick Gaughan singing Hamish Henderson's The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily, respectful to be part of that future the likes of Pte. William McBride fought and died for; respectful that his death was not in vain.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Britain's involvement in The Great War was, at the time entirely justified, even inevitable.

It all too easy to sit in the comfort of one's armchair and wring one's hands about of what os right or wrong.

Consider though: if Britain had not gone to war how many here complaining would actually be here at all? Your existence is dependent on all the past that precedes it.

Anyway, the original issue is the changing of "The SONG".

Like it or not makes absolutely no difference.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:04 PM

Maybe this should be the B-side? From digitrad.

WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
(Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet (Copyright 1997)
Tune: "No Man's Land" by Eric Bogle

My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide,
Of years and of distance of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.

You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And the rifles fired o'er me as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."

Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.

And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly... etc.

It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.

It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM

Morris-ey. You've lost me. Are you saying that every individual's existence is posited on all the events in world history which directly preceded it?

You may be right. However, the logic of this argument supposes that, if world war 1 had never happened, I would not now be sitting here keying this in. That's probably correct, because my mother would presumably have been born pre-1914 instead of post-1918. Ditto for my father, which means they might never have met and I would have been a completely different person.

But in what way would this justify world war one?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:35 PM

I know - let's invent a time machine and go back and stop the war ever happening.

Oh hold on.. wait a sec.. not such a bright idea...

All those millions would never have died and Europe would be even more overcrowded than it already is...

.. and all them scrounging buggers would be wanting to come and flood over here to England..

Sod that, now we'll all have to vote UKIP for even daring to imagine the war never happened...


There you go - Proof - being daft is very easy... requires no hard effort at all.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM

"Those "historians" that you haven't read again
If you haven't read up the subject how the **** can you claim they are not typical?
And the atrocities committed by Belgium were equally as real and many millions time worse, and still not worth a comment - probably because the victims were the wrong colour - Gallant Little Belgium my arse.
The real atrocity is that a century later there are still Empire Loyalists lkje yourself who will still excuse rthe annihilation of a generation and would still do it again "For King and Country" - given half the chance
Rule Britannia - as ever eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM

The raving lefties are all on hyperdrive today!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

Bonz - quite often the problem with being an anti war loony lefty* [*ah..quaint old dismissive insult - almost Trad]
is the even loonier lefties on your own side...

Unfortunately, I missed out on being a raving lefty because I wasn't into the acid house clubbing scene..


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:13 PM

Jim, I have been avidly interested in WWI since I was a boy and have read the History extensively.
My views are learned from historians.
I quoted many to make my case on the earlier threads.
You still have not found a single one who supports your version of History.
That is because there is not a single one.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:33 PM

The whole flippin' lot of you miss the point, though, albeit PFR only just.
What happened then happened then. This is about what's happening now. The rights and wrongs of the time are the mores of the time. we should have moved on and learned the lessons of that, but what in fact is happening is that a bunch of fogeys have been unable to get past it and are stuck in a mentally twisted time loop. Worse, they've dug in and won't recognise that in defending that Great Lie, they are perpetrtating a bigger one. When Kipling regretted his jingoistic imperial stance in Common Form, "If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied." he could be exused the benefit of ignorance. Not so now. Let us at least be honest with our children.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:46 PM

From wiki (with citation)
After his son's death, Kipling wrote, "If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied." It is speculated that these words may reveal his feelings of guilt at his role in getting John a commission in the Irish Guards.[67] Others such as the English professor Tracey Bilsing contend that the line is referring to Kipling's disgust that British leaders failed to learn the lessons of the Boer War, and were not prepared for the struggle with Germany in 1914 with the "lie" of the "fathers" being that the British Army was prepared for any war before 1914 when it was not.[68]


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 04:06 PM

May a raving leftie pop his unhelmeted head above the fire step?

I heard "No Man's Land" first sung live by Eric Bogle, and shortly afterwards on vinyl by June Tabor. Both of course excellent. This was nearly forty years ago. Unfortunately the song was then misheard, renamed and recorded by various performers, SOME of whom had previously made loads of money by bellowing rebel songs while wearing Aran sweaters. I don't have a problem with this but it does seem somewhat ironic.

I think now that the song is marginally overwritten, but that's just an opinion. Visiting a small war cemetery in northern France does tend to make one veer between anger and sorrow. I've managed to avoid the current Joss Stone/Jeff Beck/et al version so won't express an opinion, although the ravings about it in certain "newspapers" are beneath contempt.

I do protest about certain people on this thread implying that my wife and I are deluded militarists because we have bought poppies, including a couple of ceramic ones, in memory of the members of our families who didn't come back, or who came back damaged.

We spent the two minute silence yesterday in a hotel in Hartlepool with the TV on, looking out at the West Quay. At 11:02 someone fired a cannon from the "Trincomalee" and at the same time a dinghy race started. I thought "Good, I bet all the lads from Teeside who didn't come back would have approved of this".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Kipling wrote a number of epitaphs, including the following;

Epitaphs of the War 1914-1918

A SON

My son was killed while laughing at some jest. I would I knew
What it was, and it might serve me in a time when jests are few.

AN ONLY SON

I have slain none except my Mother.
She (Blessing her slayer) died of grief for me.

COMMON FORM

If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.


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Subject: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:30 PM

Jesus wept...! Who would've thought so many half wits were into folk music? There's a guy earlier today talking about the "Bogle version", which he apparently dislikes. There isn't a "Bogle version" sunshine: it's his song and that's how it goes. In the folk tradition (which I believe Eric Bogle subscribes to) minor edits and alterations to suit the tempo or style of a particular singer are acceptable, but to delete half the song to deliberately remove its core meaning and message is grossly insulting and offensive in the extreme.

When Joss Stone was tackled about her "butchery" of the song at the Albert Hall during rehearsals for the British Legion concert last Saturday (by another artist - a veteran who had been at the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944 and knew what it was to be bombed and shot at and who was appalled by what he heard) she admitted that she had been responsible for rewriting the lyrics but claimed she had to shorten it to fit the time slot. This was a mealy-mouthed and pathetic excuse as she cannot be so dense as to have missed the significance of her re-write (can she...?). The RBL must also have been fully aware of (and must have endorsed) this censoring of the message in the song's lyrics. The guy who tackled Stone at the Albert Hall told her that if he was Eric Bogle then he would probably sue her. Bogle himself has taken a more emollient line but we should not. It's a bloody outrage and those responsible should be told so in no uncertain terms.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:57 PM

I rarely remember this, but for the year of my degree dissertation I lived and breathed H. Rider Haggard.
I still have boxes of books going mouldy somewhere in the house.
Amongst them is the published diaries.
Wherein he wrote about death of the son of his good friend Kipling.

[Of course, I can't remember the details or be arsed digging around in the damp downstairs back room].

Haggard may have used the word 'atomized' to describe the young man's death ?

I've just googled to see if I can find the diary entry.
No luck, but I did find this account if anyone is interested...

Kipling's son


BTW.. LATEST UPDATE..

I asked the wife if she had bothered listening to the youtube link
to Bogle's original full length version ?

She said "Yes, I liked it... you said he was Australian, he sounds Irish !!!"

"He was born in Scotland"

" errrrmm.. yes, he sounds Scottish"

"So which version of the song do you like most ?"

"Hers.. his is too long. I like both, but hers is best."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:08 PM

"It's a bloody outrage"

No, GUEST,AC - coercive conscription to near certain squalid suffering and death
is a bloody outrage !!!

Percieved insensitive editing of a song by a young insufficiently educated singer,
is by comparison, just a slight annoyance...

All this exagerated protestation and hyperbole just makes people like you
look immature and silly.

It's embarrassing....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:55 PM

Read what I actually wrote PFR. The "editing" wasn't just insensitive: it was the deliberate and conscious removal of the core message in the song's lyrics and the main reason for its existence (read Bogle's account). Therefore it was a political act, not a simple rearrangement of a song for artistic purposes (or even merely to fit a time slot).

I suspect that you are a closed minded type and probably not worth the effort of trying to reason with. However, even the most ignorant reader of this discussion and observer of the facts must see that removing an explicitly anti-war message (not necessarily a pacifist message as many peace campaigners are prepared to fight if necessary - the artist I mentioned above wore the emblems of 'Veterans for Peace' and 'Ex-Services CND' alongside his campaign and service medals at the RBL concert) was a deliberate act intended to alter the meaning and impact of the song.

Joss Stone may be young, inexperienced and ill-educated as you say, but she read the original lyrics before she re-wrote them, and the people who commissioned and produced the record were also fully aware of what they were doing. Artists who make political statements (or who censor them) in their work have to take responsibility for that. Altering the political statement in someone else's song (without their permission or even consulting them) and turning it into the travesty we heard on Saturday night was an outrage and if you find this point "immature" or "embarrassing" then that says more about you than me.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Mick Woods
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:02 PM

Yesterday a friend emailed Jim Radford a copy of Eric Bogle's response to Joss Stone's rendition of "No Man's Land" at the Royal Albert Hall. Jim is a friend of mine and a veteran of Normandy landings. He was invited to sing at the event. Here is Jim's reply

I thought it a worthwhile addition to the discussion here on mudcat
Here is Jim's reply to my friend:

"No - I had not seen Eric's response, but I share his obvious disdain and had in fact predicted it when I first Heard Joss Stone rehearsing her version at the Royal Albert Hall, on Friday. Like him, I do not usually criticise other peoples musical styles and preferences, but in this case I was so appalled by her mutilation of a powerful anti war song, that I sought her out to tell her so. It is perhaps unfair to blame the British Legion for the emasculation since she confessed that she was personally responsible for the arrangement and for deleting most of the verses. Her excuse was that she had to condense it to fit the time allowed for the recording, which of course does not explain why she wasted some of that time by repeating the first verse and chorus. I concluded my criticism by telling her that if I were Eric Bogle, I would probably sue her! (I note he is more tolerant)
I also talked to the gospel singers who were her backing group. Who, I discovered, had never heard Eric's words! So I sang these for them and suggested - that they learn those words and sing them so that people could hear and understand them -(" because it is a folk song and that is what you do with folk songs".) I am afraid I was in lecture mode and although I tried not to offend them I left them in no doubt that in spite of the guitar skills of the legendary Jeff Beck, I did not like the meaningless musical noise that was being substituted for Eric's passionate and effective anti war diatribe. From my conversations with others involved in the Festival of Remembrance, and especially the musicians, the general view was that the song had been butchered and I noted that most of the free single discs that had been left out for performers in their dressing rooms, remained uncollected".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:10 PM

AC - can you provide any link that supports your contention that Joss Stone "read the original lyrics before she re-wrote them"?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:24 PM

Morris-ey - don't be stupid mate. How can you re-write a song's lyrics without reading the original lyrics? As I said, Joss Stone has admitted that she was the one who re-wrote the words and deleted the majority of the original lyrics.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:27 PM

Jim Radford's complaint is perfectly reasonable and justafiable in the circumstances.
He is clearly unhappy and disdainful, but he expresses himself with dignity
and well measured criticism.

His performance was inspiring.

The likes of GUEST,AC and others however, present themselves as though they are caricatures,
the kind of anti war protesters and rabid lefties
that our right wing opponents delight in holding up as
the worst kind of example of PC gone mad.

They are too often a complete liability for whatever cause they are 'fighting for,
and self defeating for whatever their objective may be.

It really is unconforatable to know we are 'fighting' on the same side.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:15 AM

There was no "re=write". Stone did not change Bogle's words, she simply omitted half of them, so stop calling it a "re-write".

So, has this outrage and subsequent protest swept across Britain, prompting the withdrawal of the recording, apology by the Legion, and shredding of all CDs produced?

"Tempest in a teacup" is the phrase that comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:10 AM

Jim Radford's performance was, on many levels, an inspiration.

If the above-reported conversation actually took place (no reason to suspect it didn't, but there are such things as urban myths and sometimes caution is advisable), good on 'im for having the balls to speak his mind to the person who 're-wrote' and, in the process emasculated, a great anti-war song.

The sad thing, AFAIC, is that the lass can belt out Blues and Soul with the best of them, so why was she persuaded to allow herself to be involved in re-writing and performing a song that clearly falls way outside the scope of her talents (which are considerable)?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Eddie1 - Sans cookie as ever
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 02:25 AM

michaelr "There was no "re=write". Stone did not change Bogle's words, she simply omitted half of them, so stop calling it a "re-write"."

Give the original and this version another listen, Small changes I admit, but significant!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 03:54 AM

The historian Fergul Keane wrote an interesting historical perspective today on The BBC News website about recruiting sergeants on a commission and peer pressure, the plight of teenage soldiers.

Strangely, he doesn't seem to concur with what Keith calls "every living historian." How strange??? 😆😆

You know, it must be awful to claim to have been fascinated by war all your life and find out it isn't the glorious patriotic goodness after all... All those toy soldiers set out on your dining room table eh Keith? You tell them they are fine upstanding men and hope they never find out they were made out of plastic in Hong Kong.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 04:45 AM

This discussion has been quite enlightening for me. Until now, my brain would switch off after the first verse whenever I was in the vicinity of the song, so drearily soporific is the tune. And now I discover that the subsequent verses are every bit as trite and ill-made as the first. Need a rhyme for "nineteen"? Hmmm — I know: "sixteen!" Result!

As you were.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM

Not true Musket.
Keane is not a historian, and he said nothing that contradicts my case anyway.
His piece is about how underage teens were sometimes able to get past the recruiters.
Here it is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29934965


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM

Jim Radford's performance at the Festival of Remembrance was immense.

Note to another thread - Jim Radford, 85 years old, delivery perfect, no crib sheet (I know he wrote the song and it told his own story - But I have encountered many singer/songwriters who cannot remember the lyrics of their own songs) and he could have performed that song just as effectively and as movingly if there had not been one note of accompaniment - Absolutely brilliant and wonderfully rare.

1: Having listened to Joss Stone/Jeff Beck rendition I fully agree with MartinRyan - "DO have a listen! It's the most wonderful example of appalling musical taste that I've heard for a long time."

2: "The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion." - Jack Campin

Complete and utter codswallop. I take it that you didn't watch the Festival of Remembrance? You would therefore would not have heard this opening address given by a D-Day Veteran, Dennis Boardman of the Parachute Regiment:

"At this festival we honour the memory of those who have fallen and we commit to build a better future for our world. United we all who serve will care for those who suffer, comfort the lonely and support all those in need. Holding high this torch of remembrance we live on to strive for justice for all people."

Can't get much more militaristic than that, can you Jack??

3: "some of the military got a decided liking for doing that wholesale, pushing other people around for any reason and none, "because there's a war on", and cannot let it go. It's part of what's called militarism." - GUEST, Rahere

I'd love some examples of the military in this country ever getting to the stage you mention. As a former soldier? If there is a war on then things are, understandably, done differently than they would in peacetime.

4: "Much like claiming what they {Royal British Legion} are about isn't militaristic. I don't see any other group parading with flags and military bands - not even the BNP get away with that lot." - GUEST,Rahere

Flags/Banners/Bands? Never seen them? Unions have, or used to have them. The Salvation Army has them. The "Royal" in the Royal British Legion should have given you a clue - their Standards are presented to them and they represent locally those who have served in all arms of our forces - they have earned their right to march under colours - Again to any who saw the nearly 90 year old ex-paratrooper Dennis Boardman march out to deliver that opening address at the Festival of Remembrance I would say that he was proud of the honour and of doing justice to it on behalf of those who are not here - he marched assisted by a serving major in the Parachute Regiment and he was rightly proud of his service and so he should be - he earned that right and our respect.

Oh by the way Rahere - "recognise that military power being a continuation of government policy by other means" - If you are going to quote get it right. The quotation comes from Carl von Clausewitz and runs:

"War is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means."

Note "WAR" not "military power".

5: "Just an observation about Eric Bogle's claim that NML would have been too long for a single. He's obviously forgotten the Animals' version of House of The Rising Sun, which went on for around 6 minutes, and proved an enormous hit. Not being a pop fan I couldn't put a name to any other epic blockbusters, but I'd have thought there were plenty 55which broke the three minute sounds barrier by a similar margin." - GUEST,Fred McCormick

Oh yes there were Fred, one of the most notable IIRC was Don McLean's American Pie - which got airtime on radio stations because if they played it the DJ could nip out and take a cr*p, while it was played.

6: " "Britain was treaty bound to defend Belgium."
So Britain was treaty bound to defend a murderous imperial power capable of slaughtering 15 million of its subjects" - Jim Carroll


Keith was perfectly correct in stating that by treaty Great Britain was honour bound to defend the neutrality of Belgium - that is a simple matter of record {Treaty of London 1839}. But that treaty had more to do with what was perceived as being in the best national interests of Great Britain than in any consideration for Belgium - so defence of a murderous imperial power never entered into the equation.

7: Keith A of Hertford - 10th Nov 14 - 03:46 PM cut-n-pasted the following from wiki:

"After his son's death, Kipling wrote, "If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied." It is speculated that these words may reveal his feelings of guilt at his role in getting John a commission in the Irish Guards.[67] Others such as the English professor Tracey Bilsing contend that the line is referring to Kipling's disgust that British leaders failed to learn the lessons of the Boer War, and were not prepared for the struggle with Germany in 1914 with the "lie" of the "fathers" being that the British Army was prepared for any war before 1914 when it was not.[68]"

I would side on the "self-guilt" explanation, as Bilsing was wrong in his statement that "British leaders failed to learn the lessons of the Boer War". The fact was that the British Army had learned well from the Boer War only too well, a war of fire and manouevre - the British Infantry and field artillery were the best trained troops in Europe - only trouble was that there was never enough of them (The British Army was never large by continental standards) and the war they were about to fight was of a type that no military power at the time had predicted or planned for. The British Army was prepared for war - it simply was not prepared for the war that unfolded in 1914.

8: "No, GUEST,AC - coercive conscription to near certain squalid suffering and death is a bloody outrage !!!" - GUEST,punkfolkrocker

Hate to burst your bubble PFR but conscription came in 1916, and when introduced it was not universal nor was it coercive. Of those who joined the British Army during the First World War 2.67 were Volunteers and 2.77 were Conscripts. As for the certain squalid suffering and death? On joining the forces, after basic training and receiving for many for the first time in their lives a balanced diet, exposure to fresh air and exercise, most put on around 14 kilos in weight and gained between 2.5 to 5 centimetres in height. They did not spend their entire time while deployed in France suffering in trenches (7 days in the front line: 56 days in the rear was the usual rotation) As for the certain death part of it ~1 in 10 got killed.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

OK, with 11.00 11.11 coming up, anyone joining me in singing the correct version through the National silence?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:22 AM

Why Joss Stone, shes hardly the best singer around. She turned the whole thing into a screeching, X Factor, rant, complete with up and down hand motions, inability to hold a note without warbling like some demented banshee. Surly they could have picked a better singer than her.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:37 AM

Teribus,
Your point 3. We are not, as far as I know, actively at war at this moment: our forces have almost entirely drawn down from Afghanistan and are no longer engaged in Iraq, although that may be changing, much as it changed in Vietnam, when advisors found themselves doing rather more than that. Most particularly, we have not been in the kind of war which required a major economic reorientation since WWII. Your point does not therefore hold, it is the exact opposite, what was done then should not be dragged on into the very different society we have now.
Your point 4. Much like Joss Stone, you edited out what I said to suit your own ends, in striking out the Military bit in discussing "bands". That's the same tactic and every whit as dishonest. You continue by reproaching me for not quoting Clausewitz verbatim: it's because I was was posting, not him, and what I had to say indicated that the real world has moved on a lot since then. So kindly stop editing what posters say to suit your case, it's perverting, perverted and disrespectful. Power is the essence of politics, and it can be classified as military, civil, judicial and moral. We do certain things as members of our society because it is part of the moral conditions of the State to do so. If that doesn't rub, we may find we have to answer in Court. In more extreme cases yet, the Riot Sqaud is available, and beyond that, the ultimate justitiars, those who kill (MI being formerly Military Intelligence: 5 & 6 are merely the civilianised survivors of something like 20 Intelligence divisions). Realpolitik means that the tidiness of legal war doesn't always happen, pragmatically: where's the UN mandate for the so-called Islamic State? This is perhaps part of Gorbachev's difficulties, that Putin is a pragmatist and doesn't give a damn about his lawyers and judges. I'm not arguing that we should decline to that level, but do appreciate that power sometimes means you cannot keep your kid gloves clean, for example the entire WMD debate was a massive stupidity, all Blair really needed to do was denounce a political abuse of the ceasfire which ended Gulf War I: doing it that way over-egged the cake. Unless you are prepared to face that reality, you have no way of controlling the iron fist in the velvet glove: I'm not arging we don't need an armed force, what we need to do is ensure it is used poitively and none of this is.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:44 AM

Just had The Fleetwood Homecoming Parade pass by our front door; brass band, soldiers in WW1 uniform; costume, banners, lots of people. Thrilling stuff. I'd go out for a neb if I wasn't still in my pyjamas. Maybe the past isn't such a very different country after all...

Read all about it: The Homecoming ~ A Community Parade


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Mick Woods
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:59 AM

Jim was 86 in October and he still has the ability to perform hundreds of songs from memory - including some very long folk ballads. And yes the conversation DID take place - there are several people here on mudcat that know Jim and will vouch for his integrity.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM

I take it that you didn't watch the Festival of Remembrance? You would therefore would not have heard this opening address given by a D-Day Veteran, Dennis Boardman of the Parachute Regiment:

Why was a killer chosen to speak, rather than a rape or torture victim of the British military? It's not like it would have been difficult to find one.

"At this festival we honour the memory of those who have fallen and we commit to build a better future for our world. United we all who serve will care for those who suffer, comfort the lonely and support all those in need. Holding high this torch of remembrance we live on to strive for justice for all people."

Can't get much more militaristic than that, can you?


No you can't. It's platitudinous fluff that does nothing to challenge militarism, and hence reinforces it. He could have mentioned this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-devastating-dossier-on-abuse-by-uk-forces-in-iraq-goes-to-international-criminal-court-9053735.html

"Comforting the lonely" by machine-gunning piles of wounded men and starving and sexually assaulting prisoners before torturing them to death, and deforming their children by poisoning their whole country with depleted uranium. Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:35 AM

War crime is inexcusable but it is a by product of all conflicts and its perpetrators are not exclusively to be found on any one side or even only within official military machines, i.e. national armies, forces etc. These atrocities can just as easily be committed(and are)by so called freedom fighters, resistance movements and the like.

I know little about Dennis Boardman and I doubt if you do either. However, to describe him as a mere "killer" in such a condemnatory fashion is quite despicable. There is no evidence to suggest that he was anything other than a brave and honorourable man who was serving his country.
There is, of course, a distinction in law between "killing" and murder, in any case, and the former may be regarded as justifiable on occasion. Besides, not all servicemen have even actually "killed" another human being but many of them have gone through hell just the same including many of both the fallen and survivors.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:58 AM

Those who fought in the two world wars did so to oppose the spread of militarism, which would otherwise have overwhelmed Europe and much of the rest of the world. To call them "killers" is disgraceful. That you have the freedom to do so is because of them.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 08:07 AM

Mick Woods - thanks for the confirmation regarding Jim's conversation, I was cautious because these things are often invented or exaggerated on they Internet. Glad to hear it's fact. He's a hero.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 08:19 AM

I still say focus on the future. What kind of world do you want and how do you intend to get there? Yes, if you forget the lessons of the past you're bound to repeat them in the future, but learn the lessons of the past and don't wallow in it. It's a tendency in the folk world to live in the past, sure, and even more so in the Military, when the need to justify oneself to the beancounters is almost all in what you've done and not what you're doing, but even so, it's only a part of the real world and it's out of proportion. Instead of diminishing it increases: when I was young, it was just Remembrance Sunday, now it's 11th as well and it's getting to be weeks either side of it too. That's morose to the point of sickness. The dead gave their lives so you should live, not spend all your days moping. The women they left behind became the maiden aunts of my youth, and are now gone. Our generation lost 453 in Afghanistan, and 179 in Iraq, with 47 in the Gulf War. The order of magnitude is completely different, and whilst there is no moral difference between one and a million, the effect on the population is different in real terms.
And to come back to the core of the meme, to do this, they cheat and con. That does discredit their cause, in my opinion, which is a hard and terrible conclusion to come to. The dead deserve to be treated better than this, and the people who pulled it should be ashamed of themselves - but obviously aren't. Until this comes back into proportion, my respects to them will be my own, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because then it will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 08:37 AM

SO far as I can see GUEST,Rahere you have not addressed a single point I have asked you to. So there are no examples of militaristic take overs in Britain - so none of the military have displayed any liking at all for wholesale, pushing around of other people. Why not just say so?

The responsibility for the vast majority of the stupidity relating to Iraq and WMD could be laid firmly at the door of chronically poor reporting in British MSM - had people actually read, or listened to, what politicians were actually saying in context instead of reading and believing what some damned idiot reporters though they had said then you would have seen that the reason the UK was part of the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was because Iraq had failed to comply with the Safwan Ceasefire Agreement terms and Conditions and as such any of the combatant powers could regard the ceasefire as being null and void and could resume hostilities to enforce Iraqi compliance. Now I twigged that - how come you didn't.

Dam,n me "Champin' Jack" has dug up yet another "devastating Dossier" possibly dodgier than the last one. I think that you will find that these charges failed to make any headway in the UK after the UK tax-payer had thrown millions into the investigations - I will give you a bit of advice Jack don't hold your breath on seeing queues of "British War criminals" lined up outside some building in the Hague.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 10:22 AM

Teribus - that's ok.. my bubble burst many years ago.. I can cope with it...

I'm certainly no historian, but I am aware of some of the gist what you point out, if not the detailed facts,
contradicting my hyperbolic statememt..

I confess I was guilty of indulging in the rash debating style
of a newly issue concious precocious 14 year old,
just to take the piss out of GUEST,AC and his ilk's mode of communication..

[I could/should have been more circumspect and simply said
"Being mustard gassed or blown to atoms is a bloody outrage !!!", or something similarly emotive..]

Though I still hold firm in my personal belief that conscription is a deplorable,
[perhaps even evil] manifistation of authoritarian state control & cohersion...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:49 AM

Terms such as remembrance and "lest we forget" seem to be lost in some weird translation.

Whilst most are agreed that we recognise the awful carnage and waste, there are still some who think war is noble.

I wonder how many dead young men would, if they knew, weep at the sight of the last ceramic poppy being laid at The Tower at 11.00am today?

We put a 13 year old child in a soldier's uniform, and surrounded by soldiers, we made him stand and salute like a soldier and lay the poppy.

Just in case we run out of cannon fodder, we glorify that which Western civilisation should be deeply ashamed of. If it is about "never again" have him wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody. Not a modern soldier's uniform. A WW1 uniform maybe, but the message that we haven't learned is typical of war mongering generals.

Soldiering is a professional choice, of free will and based on whatever the soldier bases his or her choice on. Not some jingoistic sense of pride and duty.

We will never learn whilst it is military mindset that leads the remembering.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:20 PM

Back in my teens and early 20s I was fanatically anti military...

I'm a grown up now.

My views are tempered by reality, maturity and pragmatism

I can now reconcile my lifelong pacifism and humanism, with a respect for military personnel;
and accptance that in times of dire crisis, and only as a last resort, military action is a viable option.

I still opt out of buying and wearing a poppy, but no longer childishly disdain those who do.

In a different existence, if I had not been born with flat feet, allergies, and bad eyesight,
who knows, I'd might even consider joining up;
as I find aspects of a modern army lifestyle of self discipline, honour,and physical fitness training
near in accord with my own personal values....???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:22 PM

The boy was an army cadet in his own uniform.
If you had attended any town or village's service of remembrance you would have seen many such boys and girls alongside scouts, Cubs, Brownies, Guides, Boys and Girls Brigades, St.John's Ambulance and others.
You would stamp them all out?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:48 PM

Don't tell me about village services of remembrance, I know as much about them as you do. The difference being I don't thank my imaginary friend for letting them die. I see more temporal culprits.

Putting children in soldiers' uniforms, however much cadet games are fun and character building, is convenient for those who see military as more than just a necessary evil. The sight at the Tower today was a sight that shows we haven't learned, we are busy rewriting futile carnage and pretend soldiers in their armchairs can carry on with their fuzzy feeling of pride.

PFR speaks of respect for military personnel. Keith thinks you have to see bombing civilians as legitimate before you can show respect. Those who see the military as something we have to have rather than want to have are showing respect for the person, not the blood soaked badge. Pretending they were well led and the war was somehow noble just adds insult to their sad sacrifice.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 12:53 PM

Oh, and by the way, back when the local vicar where I used to live used to invite me to sing it each Remembrance service, I sang the whole song.

The old soldiers, and we had a few WW1 veterans back then, used to love the song and afterwards over a pint at "The Soldiers" I used to sing it again. (Cheapest beer in town.)

Funny how nobody came up telling me the song was wrong.... In fact quite the opposite.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:32 PM

So should uniformed youth groups be excluded from acts of remembrance?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 01:39 PM

"So should uniformed youth groups be excluded from acts of remembrance?"

.. of course not...

But it does depend on why they are present and what their presence is meant to signify...???


Back when I was a boy in the late 60s, someone was trying to recruit me into the scouts.
Even then I had a deep suspicion of what they were about and what they were up to..????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:04 PM

Punkfolkrocker writes:

   "The likes of GUEST,AC... anti war protesters and
   rabid lefties... PC gone mad. They are ...a complete
   liability for whatever cause they are 'fighting for,
   and self defeating for whatever their objective may be.
   It really is unconforatable (sic) to know we are 'fighting'
   on the same side."

Somebody throw a bucket of water on this guy before he spontaneously combusts or bursts a blood vessel. I suppose even complete arseholes are entitled to their point of view but I'm intrigued to know what possible struggle we could be fighting on the same side in (don't bother to reply to that PFR... it's a rhetorical question).

I expressed my anger and outrage (at Joss Stone's musically dreadful and politically reprehensible effort) in language which was proportionate and reasoned even if it was blunt. This idiot seems to think that simple abuse and piss taking is a better course of action.

If people liked Stone's ludicrous mistreatment of Bogle's 'Green Fields of France' then I don't denounce or condemn them for that (poor musical taste isn't a crime and there are far worse sins) but the act of editing out the entire point and climax of the song was a political one and we should examine (and condemn) the motivations for that.

Everything happens in a context and the context of this incident is the Tory campaign that has been going on all year (launched by Michael Gove and Max Hastings) to rewrite history and portray WWI as a noble crusade against oppression and German military domination and for freedom and liberty. It was no such thing. The 850,000 British and Commonwealth troops who died (and the hundreds of thousands more injured and maimed) were not fighting for their own interests but for the selfish interests of their rulers: competing for markets and colonies. Eric Bogle's lyrics make the point that their sacrifice was in vain and this is what Stone and her collaborators have edited out of the song. This has been done for a political purpose, not just an artistic one, and that is what we should focus on.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:18 PM

I'm going to depart from my usual policy of not being directly insulting to people..

GUEST,AC you are a ridiculous deluded self indulgent wanker...

what, you gonna tell us next..

Josh Stone is covert operative for M16 ...??????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:28 PM

Make that a bucket of ice water. The guy's obviously over heating.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:36 PM

Punkfolkrocker writes:

   "I'm going to depart from my usual policy of not being directly insulting to people.."

I suspect the irony is entirely unintentional.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 05:50 PM

"Eric Bogle's lyrics make the point that their sacrifice was in vain and this is what Stone and her collaborators have edited out of the song. This has been done for a political purpose, not just an artistic one, and that is what we should focus on."

It's only a song... Eric Bogle is only a songwriter and performer...


It's not a sacred text... He's not a prophet...

get a grip..


Dropping a couple of verses, is no where near as sinister a political purpose
as for example, making a journalist or miltant activist 'disapear'...

Keep it in perspective and proportion.. pillock...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:28 PM

This is how wars start!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM

I find myself much agreeing with guest AC.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 06:54 PM

..well innit just great being a lefty Richard..

the tories can always rely on us finding petty trivial issues to waste time arguing bitterly about amonst ourselves,
rather than concentrating our mutual energies on the common priority
of keeping them out of power...😩


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:17 PM

"I find myself much agreeing with guest AC."
Me too
I managed to take time out to listen to Stone's load of schmaltz - truly dreadful - it totally sanitizes the war and the fate of the people who died - which appears to be the whole object of the 'Remembrance industry', certainly if this is how they have chosen to remember those who died.
Bogle's song - "only a song" - not really - not unless you regard, say, 'Guernica' or those magnificent Goya 'Disasters of War' paintings as "only pictures".
It is his take on the war - totally neutralised by that insulting interpretation.
"Petty - trivial" not really P.F.R. - that war is seen as it really is, without dressing it in pretty, long frocks and making it sound 'sweet', is fairly important
That's what I call is pissing on the memory of those who died.
The war wasn't "sad" - it was a massive crime against humanity - the first of a whole string of them committed in global proportions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 07:52 PM

@Teribus 11 Nov 14 - 08:37 AM
You obviously didn't live in the UK in the 1950s/60s. Harry Enfield's take on the Public Service style was funny because it was so damned accurate, these were the people who'd been military in WWII and thought that that gave them a sacred mandate to continue to be Captain Mainwarings until the end of their born days. The soldiers voted the Tories out in 1945, but couldn't get rid of their influence until cockups like the Irish bombing campaign and Bloody Sunday made the military command wake up. I was in Occifer Training during that period, and it was very much like the Army in 1941, when the old timers where booted out for having schlerotic thinking. Frank Kitson's work on terrorism was almost a litmus paper for it, if you thought it was crap you were out - thankfully so, because it clued us up to where we are now.
So when did the Military take over? WWII, and their fault was they never let go, the only miracle is we didn't have a Revolution in 68 like the French did - but then again, the use of D-Notices was prolific. This is still part of that heritage, as we haven't finished the job yet.

Once upon a time the Military used to vie for the honour of receiving the first shot in a battle. Bugger the poor sod who actually got shot. It's this same kind of Redcoat BS that they still have stuck up their arses. The Guards Division still wear the redcoat. Heck, the party at the Tower was stiffened with ruddy Tudors, bestockinged and all. Pretty they may be, but is pretty what builds the peace?

The military in every democracy have a fine line to walk between guarding the Nation and bullying it. The first question is, who is the nation? People like our beloved PM would doubtless say big business, the oldtimers Debretts (we fired that bunch from commanding the Army in 1871, but have they got it yet? Like hell - the Officer Corps still has its subtleties in whether you can afford the kit or not - we may have stopped purchasing commissions, but officers spend instead on comic-opera dress uniforms. Brigadier expletive deleted Gerald Grosvenor being a case in point).

We have eased their grip - but what we must beware of is allowing them to impose it again. The US Homeland Bill and the equivalent jiddery=pokery here are favourite toys in that direction - do you think it by chance that the abuse of anti-terrorism legislation by local Councils only produced a slapped wrist?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 08:00 PM

Jim -

That war was one of the single most dreadful crimes against humanity in all of history.
Surely no one with any sense would disagree.

Those powerful paintings ? Yes in the ultimate greater scheme of things, are only pictures..

It's people that mattter, who can make any positive difference.

A song or a painting, may help rally and motivate.
But it's not the be all and end all.

Eric Bogle may or may not be a great poet/songwriter.
But he does not have a monopoly on expressing that war is atrocious.

Or needs to be elevated so highly on a pedestal by sycophantic acolytes.

I admit, as I am getting older, I am much less patient with 'activists' who are more obsessed with
arts and media representation issues,
than using their time and energy to get actively involved in,
for example, ground level campaining to improve pay and conditions & and training for care home workers.. etc..

Those more mundane utilitarian issues that truly matter...

I trust you, with your historical & political perspective can distinguish this,
and understand where I'm coming from on this present montain/molehill - storm/teacup...

.. and when all is said and done, for a wider population of listeners,
that piss poor [truncated] Josh Stone recording, still functions as a reasonably effective anti war song.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:06 AM

Well Keith? Are you going to wade in when others point out your odd support for a ludicrous rewrite of history or just wait for my comments as usual?

😴


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:31 AM

Whilst the song is not for me and has been butchered. The song was used as a vehicle for the singers style and to appeal to her fan base/young people. If some young people hunt out the complete song then it will not have been in vain. Wars have been fought to allow freedom of choice and protest and this rendition of the song proves it not my choice and I reserve the right not to buy it.
Keith


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

Musket, I get my History from historians, while you think you know better.
You don't.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

Looks like we're taking sides on this one. How we do love to bicker amongst ourselves. Well, for what it's worth, I'm with PFR. And with Eric Bogle, for that matter, who takes an admirably gracious view of the whole hurricane in a pisspot.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:27 AM

.. actually, I slid too far in the direction of trying to be fair and appease Eric Bogle fanboys,,,,

The Stone / Beck record is not 'piss poor' a I stated when very tired late last night..

It's merely mediocre...


I've no wish to disrespect Eric Bogle - he has writen a very successful song,
and you'd hope the royaltys from multiple artist performances and recordings
go nicely towards supplementing his pension.

The statement he has issued shows him to be a top bloke with a far more rational & forgiving attitude on this issue
than his more fervent supporters and ideologically oportunistic bandwagon jumpers....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:46 AM

I've listened to the song but, while not over impressed by this version, I don't regard it to be such a big issue. It's true that the meaning and overall feel of the song has been changed from "angry" to "sad" by the musical arrangements and omission of the last verse.

However, this song has been the subject of abuse and butchering for as long as I can remember. It is frequently sung as a boozy sing along song in pubs throughout the world and I don't believe that many of the drunken punters ever bother to listen to half the words anyway or think about them long enough to consider the true meaning of the song. So, in these situations, it makes no real difference whether all the verses are there or not.

As for the deliberate sanitising of the song, I won't argue that this wasn't the case. Quite probably. However, songs get truncated and altered all the the time (Only folkies want to actually add verses!). So, this isn't that unusual in itself.

I agree that we should respect Eric Bogle's own views on the matter. He certainly has some reservations but is certainly not as uptight as many of the posters here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

In the folk tradition (which I believe Eric Bogle subscribes to) minor edits and alterations to suit the tempo or style of a particular singer are acceptable, but to delete half the song to deliberately remove its core meaning and message is grossly insulting and offensive in the extreme.

All part of the Folk Process I guess, which knows no ideological boundaries. First thing to go in a song are the more laboured conceits of the original writer, the core meaning and message if you like, which are wholly irrelevant to the individual experience of a song in a wider societal context where such heavy handed sermonising is collectively frowned upon in favour of a more pragmatic approach to such matters.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

GUEST,Rahere:

"I still say focus on the future. What kind of world do you want and how do you intend to get there? Yes, if you forget the lessons of the past you're bound to repeat them in the future, but learn the lessons of the past and don't wallow in it."

The Festival of Remembrance, Remembrance Day and observation of the two minutes silence at 11.00hrs on the 11th November – have got nothing whatsoever to do with "wallowing in the past" as you put it – they have on the other hand got a great deal to do with honouring a promise made roughly 95 years ago. It is not something that "The British" are particularly maudlin' about – doubt that then go over to Belgium and visit the Menin Gate Memorial in the town of Ypres around 20:00hrs when buglers from the local Fire Brigade conduct a "Last Post" Ceremony, carried out uninterrupted every day since 2nd July 1928 (Although during the German occupation Belgian troops shifted the ceremony temporarily to the Brookwood Military Cemetery in Surrey). On the evening that Ypres was liberated during the Second World War the buglers from the Fire Brigade resumed the ceremony at the Menin Gate Memorial while there was still fighting going on inside the town – The reason that they do it was out of gratitude and because they made a solemn promise to those who gave their lives in defence of the town between 1914 and 1918 that they would do it.

"It's a tendency in the folk world to live in the past"

I certainly do not, although I would be interested if you could tell me how that could be done.

"…..even more so in the Military, when the need to justify oneself to the beancounters is almost all in what you've done and not what you're doing, but even so, it's only a part of the real world and it's out of proportion."

The military thankfully have their traditions service by service and in the Army Regiment by Regiment and Corps by Corps. These traditions have their place and are very useful when it comes to bonding a group of disparate strangers into a cohesive unit, in being introduced to and informed of these traditions and being taught to follow and accept them, the newcomers are brought into "the family", a family that you never leave.

The importance of tradition? When faced with the evacuation of the Freyberg's ANZACS from Crete in the face of overwhelming enemy air superiority concerns were raised by the Army about potential naval losses that would be incurred – Admiral Cunningham's response was simple – "The Navy will not let the Army down – It takes three years to build a ship, it takes three centuries to build a tradition – the evacuation will continue as planned". If that is the result of "wallowing in it" then perhaps we should do more of it, not less. Don't knock it it has produced results that have astounded the world.

"when I was young, it was just Remembrance Sunday, now it's 11th as well and it's getting to be weeks either side of it too. That's morose to the point of sickness."

Well if that is your recollection then whilst you were in "Occifer Training" (RMA Sandhurst??) they sorely neglected your education:

Originally both Remembrance Sunday and the two minutes silence at 11:00 on the 11th November were observed with all traffic coming to a halt in the streets. The latter lapsed but was reintroduced after a campaign for its reintroduction was mounted in the 1990s. It does not "drag on" for weeks either side.

"The dead gave their lives so you should live, not spend all your days moping."

I can assure you that I most certainly do not spend my days "moping" and I do not know any that do.

"The women they left behind became the maiden aunts of my youth, and are now gone."

AND?? Your point being??

"Our generation lost 453 in Afghanistan, and 179 in Iraq, with 47 in the Gulf War. The order of magnitude is completely different, and whilst there is no moral difference between one and a million, the effect on the population is different in real terms."

The Gulf War; Afghanistan and Iraq were international "policing" actions to which the UK contributed troops – they were NOT Wars as the First and Second World Wars were. Cannot imagine why you did not mention Malaya, Kenya, Suez, Cyprus, Kuwait, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Kosovo and Sierre Leone? "Our generation" lost a damned sight more than in the conflicts you mentioned.

"And to come back to the core of the meme, to do this, they cheat and con."

Sorry you've lost me. Who is cheating who out of what and who is conning who? The meme as you term it was drawn up and agreed by those who had been fortunate enough to live through it, who had lost close family members and loved ones – who better to detail how those who gave their lives should be remembered – it should not be a moving feast to be open to alteration by those who came after and never experienced it merely because of "convenience" – the 1990s campaign illustrates that – it is what honouring and remembering is all about.

"….my respects to them will be my own, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because then it will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Should that read:

"….my respects to them will be my own, as I see fit and as is convenient to me, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because it is more convenient to me, then it will be the truth as far as I can see it, the whole truth as I chose to see it, and nothing else is worth considering."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM

Musket:

"there are still some who think war is noble."

WHO??

"I wonder how many dead young men would, if they knew, weep at the sight of the last ceramic poppy being laid at The Tower at 11.00am today?"

All if not the great majority of them.

"We put a 13 year old child in a soldier's uniform, and surrounded by soldiers, we made him stand and salute like a soldier and lay the poppy."

No WE didn't. If you asked that 13 year old you would find that he voluntarily joined the Army Cadet Corps with the express permission of his Parents, that he was proud to do so and honoured to stand as the representative of our youngest generation willing to serve, alongside representatives of all former British servicemen and those currently serving to honour and remember the British servicemen who died during the First World War – the ceramic poppies at the Tower of London are to commemorate soldiers, sailors and airmen killed in the Great War – nothing "civilian" about it so it is eminently suitable that the last poppy was placed there by a representative of our youngest generation. That is why having him "wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody" would not have been appropriate.

"Just in case we run out of cannon fodder, we glorify that which Western civilisation should be deeply ashamed of."

Pray tell what is it that "Western Civilisation" should be deeply ashamed of?

The advances in medical science introduced by us that have saved the lives of millions all over the world?

The promotion of world trade?

The abolition of slavery? – although admittedly as we have retreated back into our own part of the world slavery is again sadly on the increase

Driving Piracy from the trade routes of the world? – but once again as we have withdrawn the pirates have returned (I can remember someone predicting that years ago in the 1960s when Healey came out with the withdrawal from east of Suez)

Living up to our treaty obligations irrespective of cost, and in doing so succeeded in defeating both fascism and communism?

The humanitarian assistance that we unstintingly give time and time again, only to be castigated and abused for doing it? Where are Russia and China when it actually comes to helping out?

" typical of war mongering generals."

Care to name one.

"We will never learn whilst it is military mindset that leads the remembering."

What military mindset?? But taking that point at face value it would be a bit difficult that Musket as the vast majority of those being remembered are military – the military are the de facto majority shareholders when it comes to losing people in armed conflict and as such are better placed to undertake what is required to remember their comrades – if you doubt that Musket here are the figures for the two world wars:

First World War – UK military deaths 888,246; Civilian deaths 16,829

Second World War – UK military deaths 383,800; Civilian deaths 67,100


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM

Feeling particularly proud today Terribulus?

You might want to let your waffle and nonsense flow over into the patriotism thread. Sounds right up your street, fool.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

I think what people think in regard to war is down to the individual but I found this quote from Harry Patch who had been the last surviving Briitsh army veteran prior to his death in 2011. Obviously not all of the soldiers would have thought the war was necessary etc.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 AM

GUEST,AC:

"Everything happens in a context and the context of this incident is the Tory campaign that has been going on all year (launched by Michael Gove and Max Hastings) to rewrite history and portray WWI as a noble crusade against oppression and German military domination and for freedom and liberty. It was no such thing. The 850,000 British and Commonwealth troops who died (and the hundreds of thousands more injured and maimed) were not fighting for their own interests but for the selfish interests of their rulers: competing for markets and colonies."

History is constantly being rewritten AC, what is your "beef", that the rewriting doesn't screech to a halt when "your" preferred version comes round? Hastings by the way is correct the British First World War Commanders were nowhere near as bad a Lloyd "Bloody" George and leftist-luvvies tried to paint them in hindsight – Lloyd George was basically a clueless opportunist who found himself in a position where he was completely out of his depth.

A "Noble crusade against oppression" - Ah so the Belgians actually wanted to be forcibly annexed and incorporated into a greater Germany then? Not to forget Luxembourg of course?

Let us just imagine what would have potentially been the case had we had stayed out of it in 1914:

1: The Germans would have defeated the French in 1914, they would have defeated the Russians by about 1916.

2: Having defeated the French all French Colonies would have been taken over by the Germans giving them their "Place in the Sun", they would also as promised have annexed Belgium and that would have given the German High Seas Fleet a base roughly 110 miles from London (They could then shell London from the Thames Estuary).

3: Not having mobilized, Britain would find itself facing a German Army of 5 million with a standing Army of roughly 440,000 with no opportunity to increase that number in case such increase could be viewed by Germany as a provocation to attack - Germany's troops would be battle hardened ours would not.

4: Germany could then return to its tricks at the turn of the century of causing trouble in British overseas possessions and colonies (Boer War
You see in 1914 Great Britain was offered a choice, fight Germany now when we have a chance of beating them or sit back and wait until a point is reached where a German victory over ourselves is inevitable. Your call AC what would you have gone for? Sir Edward Grey was perfectly correct in electing for war in the national interests of Great Britain and her Empire in 1914.

"Not fighting for their own interests"

Care to name any war in history between nation states where soldiers have fought for their interests? By the way what were the "selfish interests of their rulers" you referred to?

No competition for markets and colonies – the French were just going to lose all theirs if they lost and ours would have gone soon after. Note that occurrence would not have been in the best interests of the British working man as they would have lost markets for whatever it was that they produced so jobs would have been lost, still they could have flocked to the Army that would be required to take on a much stronger Germany in the 1920s eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:10 AM

UK went to war to stop an aggressive invasion wreaked upon others and threatening us.
The people were behind the government in resisting it.
Historians today agree the decision was right.
No choice.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Musket, it would appear that:

- You cannot tell us, or give us an example of anyone who thinks that war is noble - why not just say so.

- You cannot tell us of what Western Civilisation should be ashamed of.

- You cannot tell us what this military mindset is or what it is they are supposed to be leading.

So in short you basically turn out on this forum and spout a complete and utter load of bollocks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Ever thought why people bow their heads when laying poppies at a cenotaph fool?

Read The post above about Harry Patch, then go back and read the posts your boy scout mate Keith and you wrote about Palestine.

Then decide whether decent people should give you the time of day.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM

Who'd have thought Michael Gove could have made such an impression on so many people eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM

Well the omission of the last verse is objectionable enough, but as a piece of music it's somewhere between a cheaphair shampoo advery and the sound of a motor bike revving up, in other words rubbish


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:06 AM

GUEST,Rahere

"You obviously didn't live in the UK in the 1950s/60s."

Oh yes I did.

Harry Enfield/Public Service; Captain Mainwaring - Impressed over much by television programmes are you? Perhaps you think that "Oh what a lovely war" and "Blackadder goes forth" are actual historical works - if so then more fool you.

If you were in training at RMA Sandhurst in the 1960s or 1970s then we are of the same vintage although I was not Army. So the people we would have encountered across a broad spectrum of civilian life would have been much of a muchness - I can't remember coming across the types you describe, in fact most WWII veterans tended to be very self-effacing and humble and quiet about their war service

By the way those "old timers" you came across in training that you are so ready to disparage were the ones who taught Frank Kitson his trade in Malaya and in Kenya. They were also the ones that US General David Petraeus's Australian counter-insurgency Guru Lt-Col David Kilcullen studied and learned from. In fact during the "Cold War" those old timers didn't do too badly:
Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Kuwait, Suez, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, etc, etc.

Involved in any of those were you Rahere? Or was your mention of the Duke of Westminster evidence of the fact that you were a TA Occifer? or possibly a sidelined regular?

The Irish Bombing campaign if I remember correctly only really succeeded in killing innocent civilians - the very civilians that they swore they never targeted and were fighting to protect - I'd have told them to F**K Off and protect someone else.

The tenor of this entire posting of yours screams of "chippiness" and "failure" liberally laced with envy - what happened did someone catch you putting the milk in first?

"The military in every democracy have a fine line to walk between guarding the Nation and bullying it."

Where on earth do you get this crap from? The military in the British isles only ever bullied the nation or the people once and that was back in the time of Cromwell - that is why it remains to this day Parliament's Army by the Sovereign's Royal Navy - Since that time the British Army has always experienced a bit of distrust of it on the part of the civilian population - not so the Navy, the Navy protected and promoted trade and made the country money - which was spent ashore.

"who is the nation?"

Today? Good question, perhaps you could tell us, after you have first told us what nation.

"We have eased their grip - but what we must beware of is allowing them to impose it again."


Who is the "WE" Chippy.

"jiddery=pokery??" Jiggery-pokery surely.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM

Couldn't agree more Desi C


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

Eric Bogle responds .....
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land

(ps Hope the link works)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:01 PM

Teribus, if you'd bothered to read my other postings you'd see I parted company with the light green jobs over something currently under criminal investigation in NI, but was brought back when they needed a safe pair of hands running ops financing in the European defence HQ, where I stayed 18 years.
I understand your viewpoint if you were RN - my family was Pompey, Cumberland Road, grandpa was CPO Mess Steward for Jackie Fisher. You don't get an objective viewpoint when at sea, and you'd not have met the ex-Army types around Pompey or Plymouth, they stayed in the Home Counties within reach of St James clubland, where they did and do pull an unwarranted amount of weight. They don't know the back streets of Edmonton, let alone Gosport.
My generation was taught by the next wave, an Aussie major fresh from Nam and the aftermath of Bloody Sunday, which was one hell of a wake-up call to all the aspirant Ruperts. Some of my mates were in the Falklands, but by that time I was gone, in civvy steet with Schweppes - production chasing for NAAFI amongst others, one little thing was getting the drinks in for the task force. About the only thing they didn't run out of, coke cans.
Trouble wuth that arm is that if you've got it, you never lose it - I showed WEU how to use other sources, faster than the usual. Even this summer, three years after retirement, something came up which had the US SD and UK refresh my clearance.

The question is, at root, who did you work for when push came to shove? Your attestation oath's to the heirarchy, but after that? One reply above, pure squaddy, is your mates. Your family, if like me you've been military for a few hundred years. An uncle was one of the youngest RMs on the Vindictive raids in 1918. Peter Carrington, I got to know on first-name terms, one of a fistful of Statesmen. Tom King, Douglas Hurd, yes. David Davies, former SAS trooper, much undervalued. But for the rest, yugh. Robin Cook was in particular a nightmare, utterly isolated in the European diplomatic corps. You could talk to people like George Papandreou or Carl Bilt, but Cook? A prickly, insecure pipsqueak.

What went wrong is at the heart of the political nightmare to this day, politicians wanting to use the power for themselves rather than the good of the Nation writ large. Power to claim expenses for duck houses. Power to sell uniforms to troops (that was one WWI abuse). This week we've seen the NAO paste our local GPs in North London for an abusive structure designed to milk their budgets into their own pockets without justification (one weekend a short while back there was just one GP on call for 650 000 people in North London). A similar problem has just been found in Tower Hamlets where no end of contracts and assets have ended up in the hands of the Mayor and his cronies through what seems to be maladministration in mechanism, I leave it to you to define the motive. Abstract this and you'll see that the Nation as a whole is an untidy mess of businesses and leisure, services and support, infrastructure and intangibles, banking and bonking, and the entire politican and civil service machine should support the lot, from cradle to grave, from the dimmest moron to the greatest genius. Political parties start to twist it for their support, and with 730 billion pounds at play, that's one tempting jackpot to target. The figures were smaller in 1914, but the value every whit as tempting, and one of the figures not discussed is just how much was creamed of by politicians doing exactly the same thing, giving themselves the big contracts.

Now, you can be a naive optimist and believe that politicians are benevolent folks doing it out of the purest goodness of their hearts. And you can also believe in the tooth fairy. The point is that out of the mess and chaos comes something we call a Nation, and it is that we defend. You may iconise it as a Monarch, or as business, or people, or... but beware those who try flogging you their image, as they may not have your wellbeing at heart. At the moment we suffer from a people in peonage and business doing rather too well by comparison. In Germany in 1930 the adoption of the latest Pied Piper would have dire consequences. It has happened before, it is up to those who have heard the tune before to say don't dance to it.

And that is the gist of this, not to swallow Joss Stone's siren song. The electorate has far more say now that it had 50 years ago, and we must beware that the State doesn't cut it back. They try, they try.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM

Rahere for PM. I'd vote for him! Fascinating stuff.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

Russell Brand said this on RT about a certain section of the population.
I paraphrase....
"They send their kids away to boarding school. If that's how much they care about their children, how much do you think they care about you?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Teribus

I've tried to keep out of this discussion I said my piece some days ago but you raised an issue (12th Nov 08.16)

You suggested that Musket could not tell us what Western civilisation should be ashamed of.

Could I answer that on his behalf. The total number of casualties during the First World War was 37 million (37,000,000)

Globally over 16 million (16,000,000) people were killed and over 20 million (20,000,000) wounded including both my Grandfathers and my Great Uncle.

If that is NOT something that Western Civilisation should be ashamed of I really don't what would qualify.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM

Thanks Raggytash.

I worked on the idea that if he doesn't know despite his ability to string sentences together, well you can't educate pork.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Raggytash would you care to let me and everyone else in on how "western civilisation" was responsible for what at the time was known as "The Great War"? I can put up a pretty good argument for German Imperialism and Serbian Nationalism but "western civilisation" - NO.

Dying to read your reasoning then perhaps we could apportion blame for the 50-odd million who died between 1918 and 1920 because of the Spanish Flu Pandemic on "Chinese Civilisation" as that geographically is where it was considered to have originated.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:22 AM

Terribus,

As previously stated I have no wish to get involved in this discussion, however

Civilisation according to The Oxford English Dictionary is (1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced or (2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Were German Imperialism, Serbian Nationalism even British Imperialism together with the roles played by France, Italy, Austria/Hungary et al not part of Western Civilisation.

If this is not acceptable to you there's nothing further I can say.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM

Is Western Civilisation responsible for hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced in Syria?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM

Taking your Oxford English Dictionary definition of "civilisation":

(1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced
(2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Then tacking "Western" on the front you would find that throughout Europe (the specific or particular area you have chosen to focus on) there was no great desire for war among the majority of "western"/European nations apart from Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire due to Serbian agitation.

The First World War kicked off the way it did because German mobilisation once ordered could not be halted and that mobilisation required the immediate attack through Luxembourg and Belgium in order that bottlenecks did not develop that would have a detrimental effect on the German attack on France in the West.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with "western civilisation" per se.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM

Just continuing the Teribus point, German military thinking was held in the straightjacket of the "Schlieffen Plan" - as France and Russia were bound my a military alliance, Germany would be facing a war on two fronts - Russia had mobilised in support of its ally Serbia - it was generally thought that the Russian army would take six weeks to get ready owing to distances etc. The Germans had defeated the French in five weeks in the Franco-Prussian War and it was reckoned that if they could do the same again, they would then be free to use all their forces against Russia. The Russian mobilisation meant that this would no longer be possible, and caused the German High Command to go into panic mode as there was no "plan B" - Schlieffen himself had died some years earlier. There was also the miscalculation in thinking the British would not stick by a treaty with Belgium going back to 1839.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Shhh.. Quiet Keith, you are showing yourself up. You dearly want to talk with the big boys but sadly, you are out of your depth now. The glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war has been put to bed in this thread, we are discussing the futility, waste, lies, callousness, indifference and shame of war.

Western civilisation... Cue Ghandi quote.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM

No glory or pomp from me, but it is an insult to the dead to claim it was all a futile waste.
The cost as terrible but the cruel aggressor had to be stopped.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:48 AM

Not an insult, just an uncomfortable truth. It would be even more insulting to think such actions were worthwhile and an option today.

We have enough on with Putin's expansion rhetoric and Cameron's reminding him how we deal with imperialist aggressors.

Lest we forget? I think some politicians are missing the point. Or, more chillingly, might be getting it hence the drive to sanitise the waste of a generation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 12:30 PM

It was worthwhile to resist a ruthless invading oppressor, and we should be grateful to those who were prepared to fight for us.
It is truly insulting so suggest that they were just too stupid to know what they were fighting for or to understand the cause, or to suggest that their cause was worthless.
It was not.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM

I've an idea - whilst this thread is still narrowly above the BS line - let's talk about Eric Bogle again..

I've been checking out his website and various other internet activites.

Mr Bogle has a great sense of humour, and doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.

I wonder how he actually feels about his more extremist over dramatic fans
who have currently whipped themselves up so defensively hysterical & doolally on his behalf...???

With callous disregard for the harm they may be causing
this well intentioned, though slightly misguided, welfare charity fundraiser.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:15 PM

PFR
I've tried to be reasonable so far. But when you twist the facts and try to spin your way out like this, you drop to an entire new lower level of pondlife. I too can be abusive, you sick imitation of a cordwanglers mooly. When you have no standards to work from bar a pale palimsest of patriotism, becoming an atavistic avatar of avarice, you appear to be a derisory delusion of a donkey's donut.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM

Rahere - you are a very interesting but somewhat oddly unfathomable bloke...???

At least Musk has made it clear he is in fact 3 entirely different people...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:41 PM

I had the misfortune to be at Wembley last Sunday when Ms Stone sang something that was only just recognizable as Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" (at least she go the title right). Her performance seemed to be almost entirely about herself, and when I had the opportubity to watch the live transmission when I eventually got back home, the sound mixing had raised it to probably the second worst version I have ever heard, redeemed at least partially by Jeff Beck's guitar playing.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:42 PM

Me, I'm me. Not three different people, but I do try to give my moneysworth.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

Although there are posts in this thread with which I agree, I find it, for the most part,seriously annoying.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM

We may be different people but tend to be consistent in our ripping the piss out of absurdity and inflated egos.

Or put another way, if we polled the idea, three votes to say carnage and irresponsible poor leadership is supported by historical facts and eye witness accounts.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:30 AM

The historians are clear and unanimous.
The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM

No Mans Land - Wembley!

Another performnce from Joss Stone & Jeff Beck - No Mans Land is at about 7 minutes!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:29 AM

Signers of the petition have been sent an update from Bob Banks, who initiated it. It concerns a response from the British Legion. In the ordinary run of things I would have posted a link to what he says, but for some reason it won't work.

Therefore I've posted his entire message below.

Talk about banging your head against a brick wall!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
British Legion petition reaches 5000: British Legion response

Bob Banks

Derbyshire, United Kingdom

14 Nov 2014 — We now have more than 5,000 signatures: thank you so much for taking the time for sign. Reading the hundreds of comments really encourages me, that such a wide range of people: ex-Army officers, British Legion members, peace campaigners, pacifists, musicians, non-musicians, young and old, have come together on this. We may differ on many things but we share an abhorrence of war, and have come together, determined to get this message out.

Less encouraging has been the response of the British Legion. In response to press coverage, they chose to put out a statement saying that the petition is based on "a selective and misleading interpretation of a letter written by Eric Bogle to fRoots music magazine. When read in its entirety, [this letter] confirms that the Legion legitimately obtained rights to … Joss Stone's version of the song, that she and Jeff Beck were entitled to re-arrange it, and that their version does not 'glorify' war."

This statement, claiming that the petition was based on Eric Bogle's letter, is simply untrue: Eric Bogle had not even sent his letter when I published the petition. The petition simply does not suggest that the Legion didn't have "rights" to record or "re-arrange" the song. (In fact, legally, they don't need to obtain rights, as long as they pay the royalties.) And nowhere does it say that their version "glorifies" war.

When I phoned the British Legion to explain this, their spokesperson refused to accept it, repeated his assertion that our petition is "incorrect", insisted that we are a small minority, and that the petition is a "distraction". (From the "important" business of selling the single.) I would have asked how ending war can be seen as a "distraction". Isn't it one of the most important challenges facing our planet, and wouldn't most actual members of the armed forces, and those who have lost loved ones in war, feel this more than anyone? But unfortunately he put the phone down before I could question this.

On a more positive note, June Tabor (whose recording of the song is so moving) has said: "Thank-you for drawing my attention to this travesty. It goes nicely with the ceramic poppies. I have of course signed the petition. Whatever next - re-writing Wilfred Owen with a happy ending?"

I am still awaiting a response from Chris Simpkins, Director General of the British Legion, to whom the petition is addressed. I will continue to chase this up, and send out one final message, passing this on. In the meantime, of course, do feel free to take this forward in any way you wish.

Thanks and best wishes,

Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW. I note that the BL has landed itself in another fine mess; collaborating with Sainsburys over their Christmas ad. It exploits the 1914 Christmas truce, on one of the few occasions when a grain of sanity crept into the ranks of the soldiers on both sides.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:54 AM

"The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here."
Sir Max hastings - the "historian" you have based your case on certainly seems to
Jim Carroll

SPECTATOR
Why does Max Hastings have such a hatred for the British military?
David Crane is taken aback by the particular contempt Max Hastings appears to reserve for the British at the outbreak of the first world war
Catastrophe: Europe Goes to War, 1914 Max Hastings
Collins, pp.628, £30, ISBN: 9780307597052
One of the great problems for any historian writing of 1914 and the slide into conflict is that everyone knows the causes of the first world war and those of us who don't still imagine that we do. It is clear that no historian can simply ignore the causes and get straight down to the fighting, but with the best will in the world it is hard not to feel like some poor Easyjet passenger, stranded on a Gatwick runway and sadly watching the precious take-off slot slipping further into the distance while the cabin crew go though the familiar old pre-flight safety instructions that they know perfectly well nobody is listening to.
Serbian ambition, the internal incoherence of the Hapsburg empire, the Kaiser, Alsace-Lorraine , the 'first blank cheque', the 'second blank cheque,' Pan-Slavism, Ulster, mobilisation, uncertainty over Britain's intentions, fear of decadence, fear of Russia, fear of socialism — none of them can be any more dodged than can the emergency doors or the oxygen mask. But when half the world seems to be writing about what happened in 1914, or should have happened and didn't, it is an uphill struggle to make it fresh or interesting. It is immensely to Max Hastings's credit that he manages to dispose of it all as economically as he does; but this huge, compelling, argumentative bully of a book only really hits its stride when the fighting starts, and the full catastrophe that the 'absurdly amateurish' 19-year-old Gavrilo Princip unleashed with the assassination of the unloved and unlovable Archduke Franz Ferdinand begins to unfold.
'A bullet does not go precisely where one wishes,' was how an apologetic Princip explained away the unintended murder of Franz Ferdinand's morganatic wife, Sophie; but Hastings will have no truck with the idea that a chapter of accidents brought about the war, or with any liberal, guilt-ridden guff about equal moral and political responsibility of the warring belligerents. There is no reason to think that Germany was gunning for war when it gave Austria their 'blank cheque' for the extermination of Serbia, but they were certainly prepared to live with the consequences in the firm belief that they were in a stronger position to win any war against Russia and France in 1914 than they would be in the years ahead.
One of the great strengths of Catastrophe is the space and energy it gives to the less familiar theatres and aspects of the conflict — the barbarism of Austria's Serbia campaign, the chaos of Galicia, East Prussia and Tannenberg, the Home fronts, the North Sea, German 'beastliness' — but like the fortunes of the war itself, the book stands or falls on the Western Front. From the start the Germans had gambled on the rapid and total defeat of France before turning their full attention to the east, and by the time they realised that no number of victories over Russian armies was going to win them the war, they were inextricably mired in the bitter stalemate in France and Belgium to which the strategic fantasies of Schlieffen and his disciples had doomed them.
It is the story of the Germans' bid for a quick and crushing victory in the west, told with an equal richness of detail and sure narrative sweep, that is at the core of Catastrophe, and no story better deserves the name. In the popular imagination the first world war is always going to be associated with the miseries of trench warfare; but the trenches were the consequences of this first fluid phase of the war, a place of troglodytic sanctuary from a war of open movement in which 19th-century strategies and armies led into battle by mounted officers and bands playing came up against modern technology.
Eighteen thousand French and German dead in the Ardennes on 23 and 24 August alone, 329,000 French dead by the end of the year, 800,000 German dead or wounded in the same period, 150,000 Austrian, 16,000 British, more than half of Samsonov's 230,000 Russians, killed, wounded or captured at Tannenberg in the last week of August — it is impossible, or at least it ought to be impossible, to write about the first world war without a sense of moral indignation at the waste and futility and stupidity of its leaders. But Max Hastings saves his particular animus for Britain and her army. There are precious few generals on either side of the war who escape his wrath, but if he is rightly contemptuous of Moltke and dismissive of his army commanders, the British seem to inspire something approaching a hatred — it is the only word to convey the level of hostility — that adds a startlingly bitter edge to this formidably impressive book.
Hastings hates British complacency about her military past, he hates British chauvinism, he hates Britain's patronising attitudes towards her allies, he hates Britain's love of turning retreats — Corunna, Dunkirk, Mons — into moral victories, he hates her continuing penchant for 'gesture politics', and he is damned sure that he is going to leave no treasured national myth unexploded. For the officers who only arrived in France in 1915 there already seemed something heroic about the men of the BEF; but in Hastings's hands even the old saw of lions led by donkeys is turned on its head, with the VCs they win 'soft' VCs, the battles they fight 'little battles' and even Mons — the jewel in the Old Contemptibles' crown — little more than a sideshow of a sideshow.
'Dodgy' battalions in the Ypres Salient, wholesale abandonment of weapons and positions, pusillanimous leadership, a reluctant showing at the Marne, a navy that couldn't fire, politicians who knew nothing of war, it all makes for chastening reading. Anyone travelling down the 900-odd Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemeteries that mark the line of the old Western Front from Ypres to the Aisne might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, but Britain no more won the first world war by herself than it did Waterloo and here is chapter and verse. Whatever happened later, it was the French who saved France in 1914 and saved it in spite of everything our own Sir John French could do to scupper the alliance, and with the centenary looming it is important to be reminded of that. 'No part of the Great War compares in interest with its opening', wrote Churchill, and Hastings does full justice to its appalling drama. He is, unashamedly — thankfully — a historian in the Barbara Tuchman tradition and Catastrophe is rich in unexplored sources from every side of the conflict and every theatre of the war. He is wise, too, to end the book where he does, with the German defeat at Ypres. I, for one, could not take much more and — more to the point — I'm not sure the author could either. If the performance of the old army that died at the First Ypres can reduce him to such frustration, God knows what, the 2nd and 3rd Ypres, Loos, Gallipoli, Kut and the Somme might do.
It is going to be a long five years of grim anniversaries, so triumphalists might want to pencil in 8 August 2018 — Ludendorff's 'black day of the German army' — for the next centenary we can really look forward to.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM

Easyjet passengers stranded on an Alicante runway!!!!!

It happens!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

"Is one's priority to be with taste or with profit for good cause? Not a simple one to answer, it seems to me."

Is moral and ethical principle to be ignored while making that decision MtheGM?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Just listened to the Joss Stone/Jeff Beck record again - 3 times actually, really enjoyed it!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

Right from the start I was under the error of thinking this petition originated directly from STW coalition HQ.
A few days ago I went back to stopwar.org and re- read more carefully
and then realised the petition was actually set up by just one bloke,
Bob Banks, of Derbyshire.

Stopwar.org is a seriously meaningful pressure group with heavy weight credentials.
I haven't a clue who Bob from Derbyshire is...

"Supporters of the Coalition, whether organisations or individuals, will of course be free to develop their own analyses and organise their own actions.
But there will be many important occasions when united initiatives around broad stop the war slogans
can mobilise the greatest numbers.
"

Personally, I'm still not convinced of the worth of this petition.
At further risk of sticking my neck out as an irritating voice of dissent.....

Call me overcautious, call me cynical, call me a ***,
call me whatever you like...

But awkward questions really do need to be asked.....


Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?

What are his real motives and objectives for this petition ?

What actually does he hope to achieve ?

What's in it for him ?


.. and please, let's not get into any petulant "If you're not with us you're against us"
" if you don't support this petition you must be a pro war nationalist militarist...etc..." nonsense.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:16 PM

"Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?"
Does it matter - does everybody have to be a superstar to recognise anodyne crap?
I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1 and I'd sign without asking for an I.D.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

Jim - that's where I can't agree...

To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance..

"I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1"

Seriously ?, how can a bunch of ill advised pop performers really have any significant bearing
on the reality of how we respect and mourn any lives wasted in war...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:35 PM

"To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance.."
Not where and wy it took place, it wasn't
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:58 PM

Jim - that's a very interesting point you raise.. the context...

See, from my point of view, if I wanted to get angry and focus my underlying resentments..

I'd be more inclined to attack the the overwhelming religious and royal aspects
of that commemoration service / variety show...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM

It amazes me that you all have nothing better to do than whinge over a record!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 PM

Music is entertainment. That said, it can be used to push a point. Bogle pushed his point and it was abused by commercial interests.

Get over it.

If you have any vitriol, save it for those who damn the dead by claiming they were well led and died for a good cause.

They are the sick ones here, not a soul singer and rock guitarist.


The argument is here -mod


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM

Off on a different tack entirely..

If anyone knows how to contact Edthefolkie, I'd love to get hold of a copy/pic of his poster from the 1974 Enterprise Folk Club - I was one of the residents then with Don (he was Don then...) Bonito. Ta muchly!

Brian Grayson
beegee1921@hotmail.com


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