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BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)

Don Firth 17 Dec 14 - 07:54 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 14 - 06:33 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 14 - 06:31 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 14 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 14 - 12:50 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM
Musket 17 Dec 14 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 14 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 14 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 14 - 12:27 AM
Don Firth 16 Dec 14 - 08:51 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 14 - 07:35 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 14 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 14 - 05:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 14 - 03:02 PM
Greg F. 16 Dec 14 - 01:03 PM
Bill D 16 Dec 14 - 11:32 AM
Greg F. 16 Dec 14 - 09:35 AM
Musket 16 Dec 14 - 05:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 14 - 05:03 AM
Musket 16 Dec 14 - 02:56 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 14 - 01:48 AM
Bill D 15 Dec 14 - 11:57 PM
Donuel 15 Dec 14 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 14 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Rahere 15 Dec 14 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 14 - 11:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 14 - 10:53 PM
Don Firth 14 Dec 14 - 09:28 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 14 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Rahere 14 Dec 14 - 06:43 PM
Bill D 14 Dec 14 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 14 - 12:04 AM
olddude 13 Dec 14 - 09:16 PM
olddude 13 Dec 14 - 09:08 PM
Musket 13 Dec 14 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Rahere 13 Dec 14 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Rahere 13 Dec 14 - 06:50 PM
GUEST 13 Dec 14 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland (Occasionally a Muske 13 Dec 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Dec 14 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Rahere 13 Dec 14 - 10:30 AM
Musket 13 Dec 14 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,# 13 Dec 14 - 01:17 AM
Don Firth 12 Dec 14 - 11:46 PM
wysiwyg 12 Dec 14 - 09:57 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,John P 12 Dec 14 - 06:53 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 07:54 PM

For an expert Googler such as myself, it's easy enough to find stuff with the "Lyrics and Knowledge Search" feature in the upper left-hand corner of the Mudcat forum's "table of contents" page. I put "Iran/Contra" in the box, click on "Search," and up pops a list of threads in which the words appear. Then in the "Edit" menu on my toolbar (Windows 7), I can pull up "Find on This Page" and put in whatever word(s) or name I'm looking for.

With a little ingenuity and persistence, I think I could find the Holy Grail or Jimmie Hoffa's body using these handy search boxes.

So be careful, Goofball—or anyone, for that matter—if you wrote something and later deny it, the post in which you said what you later deny having said can come back and bite you on the ass!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:33 PM

And that was me, "frogprince"; not trying to snipe from hiding, my cookie is messing with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:31 PM

It may not really be fair to condemn someone as a liar, if the individual is actually too mentally disorganized to know what he said a short time before. (Obviously, Gfs, you'll realize that I'm referring to Don).


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 01:10 PM

I did! As I said, with the search box at the top of the page, which you obviously don't know how to use.

Through the search box, I can access ALL of ANYONE's posts--including mine--and YOURS!!

Think about it!!

Yes, you are the liar here (and I can document it with your own words).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:50 PM

It wasn't on this thread...look in earlier threads.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM

Goofup--I ran a search looking for it (search box at the top of the page and my list of posts), I found ALL of our exchanges, and there is nothing there where I say what you said I said.

I was well aware of the Iran/Contra affair because it was in the news--and I was working in a radio station news department at the time--but never, at any time, did I claim to be any kind of expert on the matter.

YOU, sir, are the liar here!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:29 PM

I reckon its 7.1 to Don at the moment, although Goofus's 1 is subject to stewards' enquiry for doping...


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM

Find it yourself!...If you don't write stuff down, you'd never remember it....and in this case, when I brought up Iran/Contra, you deflected, saying you were well aware of it all...Now, IF I pull it up, and post it, are you finally going to admit that you're the liar???????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 01:00 AM

Goofballupagus, I don't remember ever claiming that I was any kind of expert on the Iran-Contra situation. Find the post where I claimed that or admit that you consistently lie about what other people say.

I mean it, Goofball! Put up or shut up!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:50 AM

Hey, you know what....to on about proving this, would be too much of a thread drift....What I posted earlier is absolutely true....even though, it does all tie in together....but why bother...blockheads will be blockheads, and if our 'astute party members' aren't able to learn anything new, don't even waste the time it takes to think.


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:27 AM

Don, say what you will, but in an earlier post you claimed to know a lot about Iran/Contra (at least that's what you claimed)...if that's the case, and the senior Bush was in on it, being as he used to be the CIA chief, before being V.P., did they, or did they not, use the Mena airport, in Arkansas, while Clinton was governor?..and do you believe that Clinton knew about it?

Now come on, tell the truth(if possible)...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 08:51 PM

Goofus?   Calling Bill D. an "uninformed illiterate!?"

Amazing!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 07:35 PM

Yup... all he does is prove it is possible to find ANY claims on the WWW.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 06:19 PM

Pay no attention to the GofuS behing the curtain. That way lies madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 05:51 PM

Bill D: "I see... you read it in a book, so it MUST be true."


Here, you uninformed illiterate...read it yourself....in many places! ...and BTW, not ALL the CIA(under G Bush Sr.) was in on it...some some 'rogue factions....but it was still a Bush operation.....along with Bill Clinton's help!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 03:02 PM

one of the great disappointments of Blair was that he didn't clean the Augean stables that British security has always been. the USA is a paragon of virtue in this matter in comparison.

could Watergate have ever happened in England. A president - a right wing President - brought to justice for subverting democratic process!

take another look at that Spycatcher book. Thatcher had very good reason to want to ban it. she owed her election success to MI5 initially. and the security services were instrumental in breaking the power of the unions. ensuring that investment and modernisation were not needed in English industry, and we remained a low wage economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 01:03 PM

Pay no attention to the GofuS behing the curtain. That way lies madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 11:32 AM

GfS..."Hilary Clinton, running against Jeb Bush.....two peas in the same pod, and BOTH working for the same masters."

I see... you read it in a book, so it MUST be true. Especially when the book is from the 1980s... about CIA & the Sandinistas .... no, wait..you read OTHER stuff in that book that sorta 'suggests' that Jeb & Hilary are... ummmm...or is it that someone 'claims' that because stuff happened, certain people are obviously implicated...and it all connects with Obamacare being a disaster & unaffordable, even though all the news reporting says it is working well ...except for the shrill voices of conservatives who can't stand the idea of Obama doing anything good.

You, sir, WANT to believe this crap, and you will quote any source that supports your predigested opinions, no matter how weak their thesis...and you wonder why I accuse you of the "everyone is guilty" fallacy.

Oh well....


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 09:35 AM

The Grand Inquisitor Speaks (piece of garbage that he is):

NewYork Times, DEC. 14, 2014

As vice president, Dick Cheney was the most enthusiastic sponsor for the brutal C.I.A. interrogation program used on Al Qaeda suspects, protesting when President George W. Bush scaled it back in his second term. Now that a Senate Intelligence Committee report has declared that the C.I.A.'s methods, later prohibited, violated American values and produced little or no useful intelligence, Mr. Cheney is fiercely defending not just the agency's record, but his own as well.

"I would do it again in a minute," Mr. Cheney said in a spirited, emotional appearance Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press." He denied that waterboarding and related interrogation tactics were torture.


Click Here


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 05:37 AM

A bit odd saying "we" Al.

90% of the population, including just about all the cabinet weren't born when the UK intelligence services suddenly noticed Cambridge was a suburb of Moscow.

Still, I recall buying Spycatcher at Milan Airport and proudly smuggling it through customs at Heathrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 05:03 AM

'Not everything is well in the UK, but when things are bad, we do what's necessary to sort it.'

yeh note the alacrity we cracked down on Philby, Blunt, Burgess etc.

this is about intelligence gathering, and we are in position to give lectures to anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 02:56 AM

Any chance of working out what key the band are playing in then?

"and when the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 01:48 AM

Bill D: "Some, like GfS just above, find refuge in the 'everyone is equally guilty' simplification,..."

Not exactly, Bill...and it's not refuge...The multinational corporate heads, including the international bankers are the ones pulling the strings...Oh, we can bitch about either the Republicans or Democrats, 'liberal' or 'conservative', but in the final analysis, it's the aforementioned business globalists, who decide WHO we 'vote' for, and which party is going to take the ire of the public, because 'their party is, or isn't in office....but it's all smoke in mirrors....and BTW, nobody 'votes' for these guys, nobody can remove them from office, and much like the difference 'department czars', they are effectively free to do as they wish, without any recourse, oversight, or accountability....as long as they are portrayed to be pushing a political agenda, favoring one side or the other.
In reality, they're 'employed' by the same 'special interests'...and leading us down a path, which is portrayed as 'compromises', which both sides have to settle for.....because neither side would have gone for what they really are pushing for....Obamacare is one glaring example....by law, and extremely UN-affordable, the public is forced, by penalty of law, to purchase insurance from private companies.....not the same as government funded, universal coverage...AND, if it goes 'belly-up' the insurance companies get bailed out...but the people do not!
...or much like Jeff Immelt, head of GE, appointed as 'jobs czar, and given 500 billion dollars to start up jobs here...so what happens?...he starts up jobs in China making electric items, and now it's a law to buy his curly light bulbs.....the cover story is that they use a lot less electricity....the truth is, he, and GE, just made a bundle, under penalty of law, selling those crappy things...AND, not one job was created here, with that 500 billion...except his!!.....and that is just one example....or come to think of it, two.
If they didn't use the environmental EXCUSE, to pander to the 'left', they would have used a different EXCUSE, to pander to the 'right', if they were the ones 'holding office'.

Right now, the political talk is projecting Hilary Clinton, running against Jeb Bush.....two peas in the same pod, and BOTH working for the same masters....but the electorate, will get whipped up, and arguments flaring(even on here, watch) about which of the two is going to be 'more desirable' depending on the 'party'....but in reality, it won't amount to a 'hill of beans' difference.... these two families go WAY back, in their dirty dealings, working together...back as far (at least) to Iran/Contra ... and Mena Arkansas, when George Sr. was in cahoots with Bill Clinton...and Jeb was PERSONALLY piloting loads of coke in, from Central America.(Source: 'Out of Control', a rather huge book that chronicles the whole affair...and used by the Christic Institute, in their lawsuit, in Federal Court, (in Florida), against the policies, of guns for drugs, in Central America, at the time) Daniel Sheehan was the attorney handling the case...and the stuff that came out, would stagger your imagination!....Look it up....and you will find that the Bushes and Clintons are hand in glove....and NOT concerned with the people who 'voted' for them, but rather their own agenda, in the pecking order of globalist bankers, and multinational corporation heads.....and that's just another example.
Think about it.

As for me, it's beyond my control.... I'm just composing music....'I'm not with the party...I'm with the band!'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 11:57 PM

Rahere... I do not question your background and your basic knowledge of how intelligence is gathered and mistakes can be made in doing so.... and I even acknowledge your noting of the problem of "... the accountability of the CIA to its commanders.". These things are not in question, and have been noted in (some of) our media.
   I also note your account of various UK personnel being interviewed and taken to task for flaws.

As to: "IS the Head of the CIA changing their procedures to stop this happening ever again?" He indicated that he is... but without details, as one would expect.

My concern in your post is the change in tone/flavor/direction once you have explicated the obvious. You say: " Not everything is well in the UK, but when things are bad, we do what's necessary to sort it." This implicitly assumes that the US is not, and sidesteps the issue that I have noted before, that the steps "necessary to sort it" are intrinsically different than in the UK. It may be that yours are more efficient, or transparent, or even less political- I can't judge that. It is simply that ours seem to have a different and more complex set of constraints- including the makeup of various Congressional committees (which are about to get even more so as the #@*&%$ Republicans get control in January!)
There simply is not a comparable process here to 'to sort it out'. You may consider this to be a serious flaw, but it is what it is... and changing **that process**, like our frustrating process of choosing our political leaders, is subject to the same political awkwardness. It is when you make the shift from noting the problem to suggesting that 'we', as a nation, somehow fail to take relevant action, that I shake my head in frustration.
There ARE efforts to 'sort out' some of this nonsense, and no one is more concerned than I at the roadblocks...(well, no, I'm sure there are many just as concerned as I).

Some, like GfS just above, find refuge in the 'everyone is equally guilty' simplification, and 'Guest' just below that wants to suggest that *Obama* does everything. He does NOT.... it is NOT the case that all decisions flow over his desk for specific approval!

This summation ", both sides of the political spectrum, reducing your entire political system to "a penny-ante bunch of shysters" for taking authority but not using it. It's not pleasant, but it is real." just glosses over the true situation, but I can no more force YOU to see all the grays ...instead of blacks & whites... than I can remake out political system.
I have joked to friends for many years that "when I am made Emperor of the Universe" it will all be better....sadly, my nomination has been withheld.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 05:42 PM

Marry Gristmess
Police on Earth
God Wills through men.

Torture 101 lecture;

"Cheney will be the first to tell you that the techniques of the Spanish Inquisition shoulc be deeded classic torture, while any twist or enhancement of those core value Spanish tortures, if clever and sufficiently degradational and non lethal, can be considered American value enhancement interrogations."


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 12:02 PM

Rahere: "I would remind you I was a senior staffer of WEU, the European Defence HQ, so military intelligence of this time is not something I am utterly unaware of. My work included crisis management planning...."

Well, 'crisis management planning' sounds like what they do here...plan a crisis, then manage it!.....and to resolve it, we get shit that NOBODY wants...except to those who planned it originally, to promote the real hidden agenda....which placates the public, with lying rhetoric and replacing the 'disturbance' with less liberty and freedom.

Sound familiar?


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 08:06 AM

I would remind you I was a senior staffer of WEU, the European Defence HQ, so military intelligence of this time is not something I am utterly unaware of. My work included crisis management planning, so I was one of their customers.

Garbage In Garbage Out is particularly dangerous in Intelligence, as poor-quality data input produces output which is at best disinformation and at worst so deluded it gets people and Nations killed. The boundary between obtaining good-quality data through fear lies at the edge where respect is lost to desperation. It's the point at which fears become reality: "if what you tell us to save yourself from your fears is proved wrong, then you're not going to save yourself" is a very different thing from this, subjecting them to the reality of their own worst fears to the point of breaking the person so far apart that they no longer know what is truth and what is fiction and will tell you anything.

Therefore, as a customer, anything which perpetuates the error is to be utterly disparaged in action and intent: if what you do is dangerous to my planning, then if you won't stop it I can at least stop listening to it. But, this goes further, it undermines the US claim to act within a framework of law and opens its commitment to International Law to question - and as there's no such thing as a debateable commitment, you're either doing it or you aren't, then the question instantly becomes a critique that nobody can thereafter trust the US in its Treaty commitments.

Amongst that list of things the US seems unwilling to stop is ignoring the accountability of the CIA to its commanders. It is an INTELLIGENCE Agency, not a combat unit in its own right, something the Agency appears to have forgotten several generations back. There can be a need for instant intervention, but only on the basis of a truthful judgement, as opposed to one warped by prejudice, dogma and wilful blind ignorance. This was a lesson learned from the Inquisition hundreds of years ago.

In terms of detail, In the UK, the Home Secretary Theresa May, to whom the Intelligence Services report, is being questioned by the Parliamentary Home Office Select Committee today. The Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee is equally outraged, and are holding MI5 and MI6 to account. The Police are interviewing the Ministers who were responsible at the time, as the start of an enquiry which is aimed at arresting any criminals under our jurisdiction. WHO, by contrast, is being taken to account in the US, by WHOM and WHEN? IS the Head of the CIA changing their procedures to stop this happening ever again? ARE your Police actively interrogating those in command at the time to get to the bottom of who to charge for these criminal actions?

As it is, the apparent answer in the US is "None" to all of these, that report seems to have been filed vertically in the garbage bin. This means both those who committed what are crimes in high places and those who should hold them to account, in the words of Sir Malcolm Rifkind, Chair of the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee doing the clean-up in the UK, "without fear or favour", all of those who should be doing something in the US - but are not - become just as unreliable as those who did it, both sides of the political spectrum, reducing your entire political system to "a penny-ante bunch of shysters" for taking authority but not using it. It's not pleasant, but it is real.

You may not like it, but that is what is real and whay is happening. Those who did it on the UK will certainly name names in the US, so it'll escape through the back door. Man up, US, come with us and clean up the bodies who did this. CIA for sure, probably parts of the NSA, State Department, some of the Senate Overview - which is probably why they are circling the wagons - but go where it goes.

It may hurt your sense of National self-identity, but do you really want to identify yourselves with such things? These replies smack of denial, "say it's not so". But it is so, and cannot be unsaid. The options are simple, take it seriously, act like an adult nation and clean up the mess, mostly by ensuring those who did it are taught a lesson they will never forget and will never again be in a position to repeat the offence, or continue as you are and be treated as yet another dictatorial hegemony unworthy of attention.

Not everything is well in the UK, but when things are bad, we do what's necessary to sort it. For a while, it started to look as though Labour's riding roughshod over any opposition might have displaced that, but now no more - this is simply a relic of the former period. Our cosy version of the two-party system has broken down, and that is to the good, both major parties are now facing accountability to the people.

It is said that for good to prevail, those charged with doing it must succeed every time: evil only has to happen once. Don't give it the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 11:22 PM

Bill D: "You don't specify exactly WHO are "a penny-ante bunch of shysters."... the bankers? The politicians? The military?... I'm sure there are some shysters in all those places."

Yes!..absolutely....and when those groups have 'intercourse' with each other, instead of representing the will, for the good of the people..it usually comes about by corruption....both parties!......something our 'so-called liberal' buddies can't seem to grasp....In reality, the 'big divide' between 'conservatives and liberals' is nothing but theater, because the people who 'own' the party leaders, weren't so stupid, to only corrupt one of them!!...Nope, they need control of both, to set up their national dialogue, for their Machiavellian tactics, and neither party is 'making their constituents 'happy'.....they just talk them into believing that they are making 'progress'...but it's neither to the 'right' or the 'left'....they leave you to settle that, and settle for a thinly veiled 'compromise'....which it really isn't....it's REALLY moving in a direction that had the party MEMBERS(of both parties) were aware of, they would NEVER approve of any of it...nor the direction of where it's REALLY headed........BUT.....
Suckers will be suckers!......There's one born every minute.....the rest of them just join a 'party' and root for them that are doing their thinking, and talking for them......and talk you into any bullshit they push.....and of course, tell you 'it's their platform'...me?..I'm not with the party..I'm with the band.
Music is either good or bad...you either like it or you don't. Politicians aren't so 'transparent' to a lot of people...until you're able to see right through them!....but for that, you need 'eyes to see'.
The rest is just hogwash...here, go fight over the table scraps!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 10:53 PM

what the hell do you think goes on in a war?
of course there is torture - gaining intelligence of what the enemy is up to is of what both sides do. its the least your men in the field deserve.

'jihad' means holy war, doesn't it. it reminds me somewhat of what the Argentinians said after The Falklands - we were naive, we didn't know war was like that.

if you read Brian Keenans account of his captivity - it seems to that the Muslim world has a very firm grasp of the ethics - or rather the lack of them that govern the use of torture in war.

why the hell haven't you lot? and why would the shit hit the fan in Ireland, Jim. Both sides were using torture in the recent unpleasantness. God knows, they had time enough to get used to the idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 09:28 PM

Verily!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 09:06 PM

Oh, that's a very well-stated righteously indignant rant.... but it simply mixes some fact with your own opinion..." the whole US political system from top to bloody bottom" is NOT a complete fuck-up.
The basics of it served quite well for a couple of hundred years, and much of it still has many pluses. In order to respond to your broad brush, I have to 'get precise'. No one STILL gets it that Obama "and his 'minions'" are not letting anyone "get away with it" (And Obama would be bemused at the idea that he has 'minions')
   You don't specify exactly WHO are "a penny-ante bunch of shysters."... the bankers? The politicians? The military?... I'm sure there are some shysters in all those places. Don't you in the UK have your share? When you criticize YOUR country, you are usually specific.... Blair, Cameron...even Thatcher sometimes still. But let the US do something to upset or frustrate you and it's all rotten from top to bottom.

And just HOW do you propose we " start to clean the shit out of a considerable number of bodies."? WHICH bodies? Have I not detailed the complex political steps necessary to do that? Or do you relish seeing us in another form of Civil War?

I can deal with reasoned, analytical and **helpful** comments, but righteous,sarcastic finger-pointing gets old, dontcha know?


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 06:43 PM

OK, get precise - but the sense in the UK is that we're not only not accepting the crime, we're not accepting the cover-up, and we're not accepting anyone who goes along with it. That means the whole US political system from top to bloody bottom is seen as an utter and complete fuck-up, from GWBII who did it with the backing of his minions to Obama who's allowed him to get away with it with the backing of his minions. You have no end of International Treaties and on the strength of this not one of them is worth the paper they're written on. Tens of thousands just hit the street to protest, rightly, abuse of a racial minority, but there's narry a squeak from anyone about the world being led by a penny-ante bunch of shysters. It's that bad, a complete diplomatic disaster which will result in the Western world being held hostage for the next generation or longer.
The UK s starting to shift on this, and if the US wants to retain its "special relationship" with the country who gave it its military mojo back, then it has to get off its fat complatent arse and start to clean the shit out of a considerable number of bodies.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:18 PM

I also agree with John P and Don Firth above..... and though I 'agree' with Rahere's concerns, I have difficulty with his phrasing:

"You're still not addressing the point about the US thinking it's a purely internal affair, though. WHY do they even begin to think that, WHERE are they coming from? A Nation which can be so ignorant of anything outside of its borders must be a menace to us all."

This is a misleading and inaccurate characterization- **nations** do not 'think' and are not 'ignorant'. People- , that is, individuals are guilty of flaws in attitude & behavior. It is well documented that there were Germans who defied Hitler and the Nazis... and often suffered for it. When *individuals* who have power and status in a country abuse rationality, it is no wonder they often abuse other humans.... which leads to atrocities being attributed to entities which can be defined more simply. I can see the temptation to attribute actions to "a country", but doing so obscures the fact that many million in that country despise what has been done in their name. In the US, our political system and structure unfortunately does allow the possibility of the wrong **individuals** getting too much power... and correcting this is not a matter of just some national vote saying "hey, quit that!"... and correcting the entire system brings up metaphors of correcting course on a very large ship.

I DO wish 'we' could correct those problems which are so obvious to many of us... but I also wish there were more understanding shown regarding the situation we protesters are in as we try to deal with the stupidity up top.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM

Oh...and 100....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:04 AM

The HYPOCRISY of it all.....

...another about face....when before................

..and how come Feinstien, who was in charge of CIA oversight, never said anything, BEFORE....till now????

Anyone else smell a rat????


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:16 PM

130 million to the untrained psychology guys company to do this. Why Cia Field agents are trained. They know it doesn't work. Money works offers of asylum works. Saying well if you won't help us we will give you to Israel as they requested works. Physical Tortureis a ccomplete failure and a crime against humanity


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 09:08 PM

Torture must work really well huh. I bet historically every person who went to a dungeon chamber confessed to the crime


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:59 PM

And yet none of this bullshit is relevant to the thread.

And some of it isn't true either, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 07:44 PM

We now have the possibility of David Miliband, brother of the Leadour Party leader, lined up to be interviewed by the Police. He was the last of the Labour Foreign Secretaries: one presumes Margaret Beckett, in between them, is also on the receiving end of a little chat.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 06:50 PM

Your buddies are outraged: the UK Parliament is now shifting, as MPs see they will not get away with shovelling this one under the carpet in the way the US might wish.
Malcolm Rifkind, Chair of the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Select Committee, has asked the Senate to see the unredacted text. Keith Vaz, Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, has called the current Home Secretary Theresa May to explain on Monday.
Jack Straw, the Foreign Minister (Secretary of State) at the time has already been interviewed by Scotland Yard, the Police National HQ(albeit on a neutral basis).
The points being made are exactly those I just made: we are better than that, even if you in the States are not. We may not be able to bring you to Justice, but the UK has no choice, must act, and is acting. Some of the UK's top politicians, with a status close to Statesman, are onto this one and will not let it go.

If the US is unable to explain, then the US had better prepare for some of its past Chiefs and tgheir subordinates to be hauled in front of the ICJ. What applies to Serbia can just as easily apply to GWBII


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 01:04 PM

Americans might be more at risk now because people who do not have buddies who are terrorists may start supporting terrorists or even become trainee terrorists themseleves. Especially if perhaps their family has been killed in a drone strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland (Occasionally a Muske
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:48 AM

presumably you'll be first against the wall then Goofus?

Look on the bright side, if the tea party get in next, you'll probably get a congressional medal for the shite you peddle on Mudcat.



Oy, Musket Original! Cookie crumbled, email me the password, duck!


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:13 AM

It has been said, (repeatedly, and on the 'news'), that Americans are 'more' at risk now, as a result of the 'release of the information' about the methods that were used to interrogate the prisoners ..... What is so much bull-crap about that is, does ANYONE think that when Obama released the five terrorists, in exchange for deserter Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, that those same five terrorists didn't inform their buddies, of what was going on???????????

Naw, this is another 'publicity stunt', targeting the consensus of the public, which has the attention span of a mayfly!!

What is really happening is that the mask is coming off...and the public is being DE-sensitized....for what reason awaits implementing provisions of NDAA, on our own citizens.......we'll be 'used to it' by then!


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 10:30 AM

So why is nobody marching into their office and nicking them for war crimes?

This is utterly irrational, that psychologists should resort to torture to garner information. What kind of shrinks are they not to know that their victims are certain to fugue under those circumstances? It'll give you the answers you want, but not the information you need, it's as reliable as a chocolate teapot. Why f'ing bother, if all you want is to go ahead anyway? Cut the cackle and keep it simple, if you're going to rule autocratically, then rule autocratically. What kind of conscience have these people got, willing to salve their consciences in a little lie by creating a bigger one like this? Or is their hypocrisy such that they're willing to torture and abuse just for the fun of it? And if so, then what kind of behaviour is going on in the current bunch to find that tolerable in their predecessors? They obviously have no moral norms, any of them, and are unfit for office en masse. And the same can be said of the UK for not holding them to a standard. What a bunch of utter shits - and to say not in my name misses the point, it was done in our name and we're entitled to hold them to account as a result.
We should be more than just shocked, we should repudiate the lot of them. A democracy which accepts such things is not worthy of the name, because they do act in our name, like it or not, they are entrusted to represent us and must be held accountable for how they do so. At least in the UK we have a plurality of parties: is there nothing to be done in the US to alter matters? If it comes out that the UK was positively implicated, then I shall most certainly be visiting my MP's surgery to make the point in person. The UK has no jurisdiction in the US, but we are signatories of the ICJ and if Blair is implicated, then we know what to do, I trust. Neither fear nor favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 03:47 AM

Must be difficult for Ireland to wake up and realise they are not innocent virgins either.

The outrage for us all, and bearing in mind that most Western countries either supported or acknowledged US search for those who would harm democracies, is that by trying to do so, the values we all hold were put aside.

Torturing, holding without trial and profile prejudice are precisely what we all wished to overcome. But the CIA led the way in joining in the fun. We all knew, and it isn't the first time Shannon (or Prestwick etc) have been named in regard to extraordinary rendition.

But to hear it through a report commissioned by The US government, shocking as the contents are, is a positive thing because hitherto, governments try to play down past misdemeanours, even if it were "the other lot" lest their own murky side gets publicised later.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 01:17 AM

"Although the committee identified the contractors via pseudonyms, NBC News has previously identified them as Mitchell, Jessen & Associates, a Spokane, Washington, company run by two psychologists, Dr. John "Bruce" Jessen and Dr. James Mitchell, who had both previously worked with the U.S. Air Force."

from the below link, second article down

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/cia-paid-torture-teachers-more-80-million-n264756




Maybe they could go to jail instead of their employers.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 11:46 PM

I strongly agree with the comments of John P., just above.

And—I take strong exception to those across the pond and/or north or south of the borders who look down their noses at "Americans" for allegedly condoning atrocities such as torture perpetrated by agencies of the government. There is damned little that I, as a private citizen, can do about it other than speak out in protest, express my anger and disapproval—and vote.

"Not in MY name!"

In times past, how many devout Christians who took their religion from what Jesus taught in the Gospels, were outraged at the actions of that agency of the Church, the Inquistion? Quite a few, I suspect.   

There is was word for those who condemn everyone of a particular group for the actions of a few members of that group.   I'll leave it to others to work it out.

Particularly ironic when one's own country is more than a bit "iffy" in that regard….

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 09:57 PM

I don't have time to read the whole thread and I'm not sure I have the stomach for it anyway. So this is my one and only post on the subject FWIW:

Q: WHAT color would the torturees have been, preponderantly?

A: I bet not white/pink.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM

Ake, I would have hoped you noticed I accept responsibility as an individual, as a liberal and as a nation for allowing torture as an official policy. In short everyone who claims American citizenship or civic duty, by silence or non action are responsible for American torture in our name. Even you have no waiver to claim yourself innocent unless you are honest in declaring yourself devoid of integrity or ultimate morality.

Other than creating editorial political cartons against torture I did virtually nothing.

Old Dude you never fail to fill the gaps in my similar thoughts.
In other words, Yeah that's right!


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Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 06:53 PM

You're still not addressing the point about the US thinking it's a purely internal affair, though.

I'm an American and I certainly don't think this is purely an internal affair. We are very upset right now because a congressional report just came out that details our government's actions, but no one I know thinks it only happens in the US or that it only affects the US. We all knew it was going on at the time and was being done by multiple countries and we all hated it. We all know it's still going on and we still hate it.

Many people seem to think that we're all responsible because it was done in our name. I reject that notion -- torture has never been done in MY name, and I hate the fact that I can't trust the leaders of my country. I hate the fact that everyone I know finds the CIA and all their works abhorrent and that there's nothing we can do about it. Our country, like most countries, is controlled by power-mad greedy killers, and I include many Democrats in that assessment along with, apparently, all but one Republican. And I don't trust John McCain because of most of his other positions.

Anyone who achieves high power or great wealth is not to be trusted because, almost always, in order to achieve those things they have to do things that are reprehensible.


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