 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 15 - 05:36 PM It is about a US situation but, as in other threads, voices from the USA tend not distinguish between aspects of the situation that relate to their nation's history and those that develop when humans all over world define themselves and others differently. For example, from your quote, above "given the way the world interacts with me and the people I love". Go somewhere else in the world and people wil interact differently. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Apr 15 - 05:41 PM 'Guest': "unfortunately mobs by their very nature may not be the most intelligent, educated, rational, and self disciplined of people." ...and that is the audience of 'political activists'....let's avoid being THAT susceptible to their nonsense on here! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Apr 15 - 06:16 PM Guest, I am not the author of that piece. Its author stated her view. It's obviously from a US view. If her view doesn't apply to you, then it's not really your business.... but are you saying that US Black folks need to leave the US instead of holding the country to its own laws? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Greg F. Date: 30 Apr 15 - 06:44 PM but are you saying that US Black folks need to leave the US instead of holding the country to its own laws? Yup- the old 19th Century colonization jackasses are apparently alive and well two hundred and fifty years down the line. Post-racial Akerika in spades. (as it were) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 15 - 06:46 PM You devoted a whole post to the quote W y s i w y G ! The author's views do apply to me, because I am of the world. I don't think that all of the world would interact with her the same way. Considering how others in the world might interact with her could alter her interpretation of her local situation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 01 May 15 - 12:17 AM Perception, perception, perception. Gfs |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 01 May 15 - 09:30 AM The piece by Ms. Blount was about LISTENING, as opposed to popping off with the first defensive judgement imposing the prevailing white worldview, which Guest (unnamed) espouses while saying things are "different" for him/her. Not so much! ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,unnamed Date: 01 May 15 - 11:22 AM "the prevailing white worldview" How is that not racist ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,# Date: 01 May 15 - 11:51 AM "Surely that is an unbelievably racist piece?" Ake, that is precisely how many 'minority' people in America feel. It isn't racist. But what prompts that type of response from people like Julia Blount is the result of institutionalized racism. It is real and it is ubiquitous in the US. The same kind of racism is rampant in Canada to do with First Nations people. In the UK to do with travelers. In some places Whites are on the sharp end of things, Muslims in others. Fact is, everybody wants to rule the world. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,# Date: 01 May 15 - 12:02 PM Breaking news in North America "6 Baltimore police to be charged in Freddie Gray death, 1 with murder Police van driver faces 2nd degree murder charge, others face manslaughter, assault, illegal arrest" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 May 15 - 01:35 PM Precisely, Guest 1151, and thank you Guest 1202 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,# Date: 01 May 15 - 02:22 PM "Here are the charges OFFICER CAESAR R. GOODSON Jr. Second-degree depraved heart murder, 30 years Involuntary manslaughter, 10 years Second-degree assault, 10 years Gross negligent manslaughter by vehicle, 10 years Criminal negligent manslaughter, 3 years Misconduct in office OFFICER WILLIAM G. PORTER Involuntary manslaughter, 10 years Second-degree assault, 10 years Misconduct in office LT. BRIAN W. RICE Involuntary manslaughter, 10 years 2 counts of second-degree assault, 10 years each 2 counts of misconduct in office False imprisonment OFFICER EDWARD M. NERO 2 counts of second-degree assault, 10 years 2 counts of misconduct in office False imprisonment OFFICER GARRETT E. MILLER 2 counts of second-degree assault, 10 years each 2 counts of misconduct in office False imprisonment SGT. ALICIA D. WHITE Involuntary manslaughter, 10 years Second-degree assault, 10 years Misconduct in office" That is from the CBC News site. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Jeri Date: 01 May 15 - 02:44 PM From The Baltimore Sun: In a detailed recounting of the events, Mosby described Gray being repeatedly denied medical attention by police officers, even as he asked for medical help and later was unresponsive in a police van. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: akenaton Date: 01 May 15 - 04:32 PM Thanks for that explanation #, but I see no racism against coloured people in Scotland....we tend to judge the measure of others by their behaviour rather than their skin colour. Everyone discriminates in some way its just a fact of life, but I have heard nothing on colour for years. Why do you think it manifests itself so strongly in America...has it something to do with it's slave owning history? If so, we scots should have the same mindset, as we were heavily involved in the slave, trade both as procurers and slave owners in parts of America. However colour is really no problem here....the immigrants who are putting such a strain on our country's infrastructure are mostly white from Eastern Europe. We have quite a large Indian and Pakistani population here and although they make little attempt to integrate socially, in a business sense they have found a niche. Best wishes BTW, we could do with seeing more of you on these pages, common sense is in short supply.....I think perhaps my friend GfS misunderstood your meaning. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 May 15 - 07:20 PM Guest # - I infer that should be "hate murder" not "heart murder". Do I see fully reflected in there the reported fact that Grey was basically bent up backwards by several much larger men, on the pavement, and was already apparently unconscious and unable to control his legs which may have been intentionally dislocated when he was dragged to the van? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Jeri Date: 01 May 15 - 07:27 PM Richard, it's depraved-heart murder. The theory is, I believe, that Gray was killed while in the van. From the video, it doesn't look like he was in good shape before they put him in the van, but he was apparently conscious enough to ask for medical help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 01 May 15 - 08:15 PM There are so many ways to define 'Racism' that, usually, any two people discussing it are on the defensive against one another before any common ground can be established. When we talk about systemic racism-- one of my areas of expertise-- we can picture it as this metaphor. Picture a 3-legged ladder where one leg is Prejudice, one is Power (and connecting these are rung after rung of Privilege (can also be Class), holding those two legs locked together. The supporting leg? "Tradition," not disturbed by actual knowledge of the real practices of the past. Knock out any one of those legs and it all falls down. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 01 May 15 - 08:26 PM Sorry- int4rrupton caused premature post submission, so continued-- Therefore when we talk about the System of Racism, if you are seeing Prejudice but not coupled with Power-- because a different group has the preponderance of the Power or it is shared among groups equally-- we would call that Prejudice... but not Racism, in the systemic sense. MOST people now use "Racism" in the systemic sense, and "racist" as a descriptor for a person in the power group intentionally-- consciously-- using that power to maintain an unfair status quo, on the basis of perceived racial differnce/superiority. But what most people HEAR when the word is used-- "racist"-- is more about prejudicial feelings, which most white folks deny having, because they really do have a good system of ethics, and the best intentions. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 01 May 15 - 08:45 PM One of the problems with eliminating racism is that so many of its toxic messages come to us wrapped in the love we receive from (or bear for) our elders... a wrong note is harder to hear when we're feeling all warm and fuzzy. But deep inside us all, our hard-wired "taste buds" know right from wrong, if we reflect on what we've tasted. I have a very good piece to post later to address the question about why US race stuff is so f*cked up-- describing the actual public policy underlying the warm/fuzzy stuff most US whites "learned" (and preach) about how wonderful "America" is as a land of "equality" and "opportunity." It's on my dead-battery fone, from which I will paste it later. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Jeri Date: 01 May 15 - 08:45 PM Three of the officers charged are White, three are African American. The one officer charged with murder is African American. It doesn't mean it wasn't a race-based crime. A look at the six Baltimore police officers charged in the Gray case (Washington Post). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: GUEST,# Date: 01 May 15 - 09:21 PM Baltimore's police force is about 50/50 Black/White. (I'm sure there are other colours too.) I think the murder is more to do with police power than race although that's a flat guess on my part. We are having similar incidents in Canada. As for the mechanism of injury resulting in death, there are ways to damage people without hitting them directly. One example I was taught in wing chun involves propelling an attacker into a stationary object: brick wall, table corner, etc. In the case of Mr Gray, I think he was put in a vehicle with his hands cuffed behind his back. Contrary to the BPD's policy, he was not seat belted Then the vehicle was driven erratically so that he was tossed about by the vehicle's motion, thus having the interior of the vehicle do the damage to him. That's been suggested elsewhere and I think it's correct. I do not think the police meant to kill him, but they certainly demonstrated no deep concern for his well being. Quite the opposite in fact. There needs to be a complete overhaul of police departments and the cultures therein. Police must come to see that they too are bound by the laws they enforce. It's too late for Freddie Gray in Baltimore, Sammy Yatim in Toronto or Robert Dziekanski in Vancouver. Police also need to be prosecuted for breaking the law, and if found guilty denied any future place with any police department in their respective countries. There is too much covering up going on. A bent cop is still a bent cop. Period. YMMV |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: akenaton Date: 02 May 15 - 04:27 AM A lot of sense in that post#. Unfortunately, as I said before being a police officer is becoming more difficult all the time as society demands more and more personal rights and the law officers are caught in the middle. They are loaded by paper work, time wasters and in the US, the availability of guns.....who the hell would want to join the US police force? Here in the UK we have killings of innocent people by police, due mainly to stupidity or mistaken identity. Six plain clothed officers jumped on an electrician who happened to live in the same building as a suspected terrorist, and shot him six times in the head, as far as I know there were no convictions. human error is everywhere , and society has changed so much that the days of the "friendly policeman" seem to be gone for ever. Progress.....I dunoo? Regarding guests conspiracy theory, don't dismiss it completely, as the chaos in the Middle East was certainly "created for a purpose" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: akenaton Date: 02 May 15 - 04:47 AM # also makes a good point that the situation in the US seems to be based on power rather than race. Poverty drug problems and associated crime, place a large number of black people as the "underclass" which exists in most developed Western countries. In Scotland poor urban whites are that underclass, living in atrocious high rise ghettos, they are a city within a city and a large percentage are jobless, drug addicted and "known to the police". Looking for someone to blame?.....don't blame the message boys...blame the system and those who benefit from it, "liberals" and conservatives. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 15 - 05:48 AM "blame the system and those who benefit from it, "liberals" and conservatives" Definition of liberal "a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth 2 a : marked by generosity : openhanded b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way c : ample, full 3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious 4 : not literal or strict : loose 5 : broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms 6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives" Why spoil a perfectly reasonable and fair summing up of a social problem with your obsessive and extremist hatred on liberalism? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: akenaton Date: 02 May 15 - 05:57 AM Jim, don't be so obtuse, the "liberals" are those who stop any meaningful change being implemented......THEY are the real enemy, and to make it worse THEY were created BY the system. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 02 May 15 - 06:42 AM Here's the public policy chapter I mentioned above: A National Public Policy on Black People By Claud Anderson A chapter from his book: Black Labor White Wealth Chapter 7 ... The public policy on the use of blacks developed incrementally until it became like an onion with many layers. It began taking shape in 1619 and evolved into a systematic, mandated social arrangement that dictated the behavior of both blacks and whites. The policy's core principle stipulated that blacks were to be used as a well-disciplined, uncompensated, subordinated, noncompetitive, permanent labor class that existed on the margins of society. The national public policy determined black peoples' human worth and status as well as their educational and political opportunities and their cultural and family values. The dominant white society's national public policy explicitly and implicitly defined how blacks were to be treated and used. Public policy is important for blacks to study because it gives clear insight into the process and methods that the dominant society used to establish absolute control over millions of blacks as a laboring class. But equally important, it shows blacks who are seeking to gain power through community organizing the way whites constructed a national black policy and plan. Understanding that plan is essential to the shaping of a new public policy for blacks. The public policy was formulated from racial dogmas and doctrines that justified the policy. The doctrine of racial superiority legitimized the exclusion and segregation of blacks from mainstream white society. The doctrine of noninterference dissuaded governments and social institutions from using their resources and power to stop the abuse of black people. And the doctrine of expendability promoted the belief that black life was non-sacred and that there was nothing wrong with using blacks for the betterment and protection of white life. These policy doctrine and dogmas continue to determine the quality of life for whites and blacks in America today. How the National Policy on Blacks Developed European culture set the stage of the exploitative use of black Africans, and the social and physical conditions of life in the New World drove the English to construct an aggressive strategy to enslave them. No single factor compelled Europeans to seek out blacks to serve as labor class of the New World. Many factors converged simultaneously. The English people, like most Europeans, harbored racist attitudes towards black people long before the first settlers arrived on the North American continent. The European traders and explorers to Africa had brought back stories about "The Dark Continent" and its dark-skinned "heathens." The 17th century Anglo-Saxon culture was filled with anti-black terms, and the first English settlers brought their prejudices with them to America. The first 20 black entered Jamestown in 1619 on Dutch warship. Whether or not these black were slaves in a matter of interpretation, because the records from that period are scant. But it is reasonable to assume that they were not considered slaves initially. They had been rescued from a Portuguese slave-trade vessel by the Dutch warship. They were brought to Jamestown and the Dutch captain exchange them for food and ship supplies. If the Dutch captain indebted the blacks in the exchange, it was probably as indentured servants, because records revealed that within five years, these blacks were free to buy land, carry weapons, go to court, attend church and generally socialize with settlers until the late 1630s. The cycle of black degeneration in the American colonies was well under way by the late 1630s. Labor was critical. No one was available to do the backbreaking work, not even the free blacks. Word of the terrible work condition had gotten back to Europe and whites refused to come to America as indentured servants. Colonial courts and legislative assemblies had begun to enact punitive legislation or rulings against blacks or any whites who consorted with them. As discussed earlier in Mr. Anderson's book, the Maryland colony set the stage for black slavery in America by issuing a government policy that singled blacks out for subordinate and exclusionary treatment. Based upon available records, scatted incidences of Indian, white and black slavery were appearing in the Maryland colony as early as 1634. But four years later, in 1638, the first public edict or policy against blacks was issued by the Maryland Colonial Assembly. That edict declared that neither the original 20 free blacks "nor their offspring shall be permitted to enjoy the fruits of white society." This Maryland edict became the founding public policy for the use and treatment of blacks from which white racism, Jim Crowism and segregation later grew. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: wysiwyg Date: 02 May 15 - 06:45 AM Ooops-- LINK TO ABOVE AND FMI ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 15 - 06:47 AM Te lierals act as a balance between extremes of politics - not one myself, but I am liberally-minded on msot things and resent your constant attacks on my being so. I get tired of people who dismiss criticism of racist, sexist and homophobic language as 'liberal' or 'politically correct' (the opposite of which is politically incorrect) - another old standby of those who would give themselves permission to insult others at will without hindrance, for their passive views. Liberals were most certainly not created by the system - any system - it is an extremely old concept of belief - mediation. Those who attempt to stop any meaningful change taking place are 'reactionaries' You have the definition - stop re-writing the dictionary. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Black lives matter - Freddie Gray From: akenaton Date: 02 May 15 - 08:47 AM Yes Jim in this context "liberals" are reactionaries....there is nothing given on political change, only meaningless social change. Which is almost always bad for society No REAL social change can be achieved without political change and that will never happen while "liberals" assure us that social change will lead to political change. Bullshit of the lowest order! 70 years of studying politics has taught me that. the wealth gap is at its widest in my lifetime, despite a chaotic stream of social changes which have turned our society into a "self orientated" nightmare of entitlement regardless of financial or social consequences. |
