BS: All changed, changed utterly.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:36 PM

Don't mention Tesco, Jim. Teribus loves all that super-Christian minimum-wage, fleece- the-producers, taxpayer-subsidised private enterprise, you know, and the divil take the hindmost...

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:14 PM

"has been the teaching and ethics of the "Christian religion"
This ir bizarre nonsense
The teaching, what there was, in the education system I experience, were the values of Empire - still being taught long after I left school.
My younger sisters were taught in the Comprehensive system - somewhat changed by then, where religion played no part whatever in their education.
The Church of England system was a bit of a joke anyway - if you proclaimed your religion as 'none', with the doctor, at hospitals.... wherever - it was invariably entered as C of E - the recognised equivalent of "none".
All academic anyway - we didn't take our principle and values from school - like our knowledge and opinions, we took them from everywhere - from our families, school-friends, acquaintances, from what we read, what films we saw, from workmates, from our own experiences - not one source, but many a distillation of our lives.
Were it down to what we were taught, we would all be the same - the same moral standards shared by everybody, the same view, the same human outlook....
We're all different, different objectives, different standards different morality, different values.
There is a vast difference in us all, even among Christians.
I don't recognise most of the morality and behaviour on display on Mudcat from self-declared Christians (mustn't mention names) as resembling that of the Christians I have spent time with - most of whom would be as sickened as I often am, by the inhumanity, intolerance, self interest, subservience to injustice.... on display in some of these discussion.
That we got out values from one source it utter nonsense    (and a bit of a joke, really, but please feel free to carry on - "every little helps" as the man from Tesco's says
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:22 PM

Well, certainly Christian values have taught Teribus be so meek, mild, accommodating, understanding, fair-minded, sympathetic to those less fortunate or resourceful than himself, so polite and so kind. If that's what Christian values do for one, think I'll stick to my dissolute, paganistic ways, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:13 PM

No it isn't, Teribus. Knowing what is good and bad has nothing to do with Christianity. If you need the church to show you the difference there is something inherently wrong with you.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:48 PM

so Christian teaching is discounted because some of its teachers had feet of clay, or worse still were hypocrites ?. sounds like some kind of fallacy to me. no, despite the failures, british society and law was once informed by the bible , but less so now.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:31 PM

DtG before you go off pin head dancing again I asked Jim a question I was not talking about 2000 years ago I was talking about the hear and now and the last two generations, we are talking about the British Isles. And between Jim Carroll's answer and PFR's answer I think that it is understood that the template used for basing what is considered "good/bad/right/wrong/acceptable/unacceptable" has been the teaching and ethics of the "Christian religion" - in it's evolution "Protestantism" taught us to constantly challenge and question.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:11 PM

""not a word either for or against about gays or cakes...""

It is clearly there, in invisable ink:

Regardless of location or circumstances, thou shall not show respect, nor compassion, towards gays.

Thou will defend Christian bakers against the "gay hordes", regardless of circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:02 PM

"all based on "Christian" teaching and "Christian" ethics "
I went to a Church of England School, where Religious Education consisted of singing hymns in the morning assembly - no bible lessons, no Christian philosophy classes - just hymns and prayers.
In the Secondary Modern System where I received my education, the main aim wass to turn out factory workers
I was told a few months before leaving (by a maths teacher) that all I needed to know when I left school was to tot up my pay packet at the end of the week.
The Christian ethics I received was that the British Empire was great, that God was good and and those who didn't worship him (not her, you notice) were bad people to be pitied and were damned.
Thank you for making my day with your fine display of Christian arrogance - almost a caricature.
A reminder of how religion works with children.
Jesuit motto:
"Give me a child unitil he is seven and I will give you the man"
The Jesuits were renowned by my Catholic educated mates for beating the shit into children - a truly brutal crowd - lots of 'goodness' there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:30 PM

PFR & Jim Carroll having been born and brought up in the UK then the guiding principles that determined right and wrong, good and evil, what was acceptable and what was not is all based on "Christian" teaching and "Christian" ethics - doesn't matter whether or not your parents or even grandparents believed or not, they were all born into a society and in a country where the church was generally respected as were those responsible for education - both went hand in glove.

Hah! Is that why my great-grandparents and their forefathers before them, and millions like them, them sweated their guts out in mines, factories and agriculture for pittances, while the Great and Good of Society - guided in their principles by the Church - lived a quite different life. I suppose that was acceptable at the time, as was the Peterloo Massacre or perhaps the mass emigration of agricultural workers from East Anglia in the 1830s - acts in which the clergy played a prominent part. Shall we add the Poor Laws and the miseries of the Union Workhouses to the list of occurrences in this Christian country of ours?

Christian teaching and ethics be buggered. I can tell you that my own family's opinion of the Church and its teachings was unrepeatable.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:26 PM

oh... yeah... and the 10 commandments....????

just took a quick look at them for the first time in 30 odd years...

not a word either for or against about gays or cakes...

...hadn't they been invented yet,
or were the compilers of the 10 comm's just not that bothered either way ??????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:44 PM

right and wrong, good and evil, what was acceptable and what was not is all based on "Christian" teaching and "Christian" ethics

So, more than 2000 years ago there was no teaching of what was good or bad? That one really takes the biscuit. Do you really think that without the church everyone would be going round murdering, robbing and raping? All I can assume is that you are judging others by their own standards.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:26 PM

... and going back a bit further...

It can easily be argued the 10 commandments were a smart move
to codify principles of stable social coexistence
that scattered pre christian tribes had arrived at
through centuries of expedience and trial and error...???

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:14 PM

Teribus - welll... errrr... yes... obviously... 😣

.. and since the age of reason and enlightenment
there are positive options to adapt the best of ingrained historically socialised christian ethos of 'law 'n' order'
and move forward with a rational secular humanist alternative...

great... innit...😎

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 15 - 12:51 PM

PFR & Jim Carroll having been born and brought up in the UK then the guiding principles that determined right and wrong, good and evil, what was acceptable and what was not is all based on "Christian" teaching and "Christian" ethics - doesn't matter whether or not your parents or even grandparents believed or not, they were all born into a society and in a country where the church was generally respected as were those responsible for education - both went hand in glove.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 May 15 - 12:10 PM

good and bad / right and wrong / justice and injustice ...????

all learnt from my parents and extended family - none of them church goers...

whilst supplemented by the more benign / less malignant influences of christianity at school and in wider society...

Parents on principle declined to have me and sibling christened and brainwashed

They wanted us to arrive at our own sense of belief and identity
and decide for or against religion ourselves when we were older and educated enough...😎

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:56 AM

"Serious question for you Jim - who was it that initially taught you what was "good" and what was "evil"?"
Like to think they were family values based on humanism (with a small 'H') - mixed influences
All my immediate family were atheists, their values were a mixture of political and church and humanist
Really extremely mixed up - family story tells of my grandmother throwng a stone at Mosely Rally and hitting the speaker, for which she was arrested.
She was said to have claimed "that stone was guided by the hand of God".
Don't know how 'is ''oliness would have reacted to that.
Thanks to my dad being excommunicated and blacklisted for fighting in Spain, my mother was forced to bring us up alone.
The only time she went to church was when we buried her.
What's the point of your question - please suggest that they could have only learned goodness from the church - that really would make my day!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:35 AM

"If anybody feels they need to be a Christian to be good and thoughtful and neighbourly and human.... they've lost before they start."

Serious question for you Jim - who was it that initially taught you what was "good" and what was "evil"? What template directed their teaching with regard to what was "right" and what was "wrong"?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:38 AM

"It is not Christianity which causes problems, but the churches "

A good point. Obe of the main reasons that, while a Christian by birth, and remain so, I never closely associate with any one of these organizations.

But, actions take people-who are these people?

When it comes to the RC church (such in mostnof Ireland) , I recall Joe O indicating it is not the RC church members who control some of the bad aspects within this church. So, what/who is "this church"?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:34 AM

Hang on. Go back a bit...

Akenaton just said that gay marriage has nothing to do with gays but they are being used for political purposes.

I didn't realise political purposes had such fall out. Poor buggers, imagine having to put up with the right to enjoyment, love, companionship and commitment of marriage. Poor sods, I bet they really hate "liberals " for fighting for their rights! Not to mention the terms I just used, buggers and sods being used in the conversational sense not the disgusting sense I heard the terms used on the radio yesterday by a bishop...,

Keith keeps mentioning civil unions. Why? Are you saying they should be good enough for gay people?

I really don't get how people can still hide their nasty side behind the transparent cloak of religion. If Jesus had existed, these are the types of fool he would have exposed and got angry about.

Joe. I really do take issue with your assertion that bigotry must be met half way and saying no to intolerance is intolerance itself.

No. There is no need, desire or reason to accommodate anything that sees people as not deserving whatever society offers their neighbours. Diversity should be seen as enriching society, not giving society reason to hate each other

I suggest you see if you can find something in your bible about it and let your mates with the long black frocks know.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:30 AM

"at least he is brave enough to put his views plainly."
Thank you for that Ake but bravery doesn't come into it.
Over the last ten years it has become relatively easy to discuss veiws critical of the church
The priest in so more the figure of fear he once was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:38 AM

It is not Christianity which causes problems, but the churches who overstep the bounds of their territory and dabble in politics - that, hopefully, is coming to an end in Ireland.
Jim Carroll
I agree, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:34 AM

No, Keith suggested that all that had changed was the use of a word, both Jim and Steve responded that the church had been weakened by the result. Jim concluded that this was the most important result.

I find myself in agreement with some things that Jim posts regarding organised religion and at least he is brave enough to put his views plainly.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:25 AM

""It has been claimed by some posters here ""

Aka, "it has been claimed by ake".

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:22 AM

It has been claimed by some posters here that the most important result of this referendum to accept homosexuality into mainstream society, is the weakening of the Christian church.

I have maintained right from the beginning that this issue is being pushed by "liberal" activists, who have no care whatsoever for the welfare of homosexuals, but rather use them via the media as a weapon to attack Christianity.

If they really cared, they would be showing far more concern for the horrific health rates amongst male homosexuals and endeavouring to find out the cause, instead of making repeated attempts to conceal the severity of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:18 AM

Ditto .

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:09 AM

Your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:53 AM

Sorry, I put more "faith" in grounded historic accounts than loose propaganda statements that "use" Christiaity to promote a clearly anti-gay "ideaology".

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:35 AM

RE was well into moral decline before Christ, the acceptance of Christianity certainly hastened the demise of an immoral and brutish regime.

Your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:20 AM

It seems (from this historic article) that, rather than strengthen it, the acceptance of Christianity by Constantine in 313 was a major factor in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.

the fall of the Roman Empire 

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:09 AM

Steve, why is it that your accusations always sound so much like propaganda?

Possibly because you don't agree with them.

Certainly, churches have had their problems.

Many of which I've exonerated. Read my post again.

But I've been in the Catholic Church all my life and it's mostly been good for me.

Smug????

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 04:07 AM

"Steve, none of my Christian friends or neighbours are Nazi's or Nazi sympathisers"
Actions maketh the man - not political alignments
Christians are just as likely to behave as badly as no Christians - former Yugoslavia, Southern States of America, Christians slaughtering Muslims in Africa, the various 'Christian' divisions in Northern Ireland......
Christianity is in no way special and certainly does not make for better people - people themselves do that.
The problems arise with those who organise religion and use it for gain, political influence, or simply to abuse the authority it brings - plenty of examples of that in the present day - Ireland is still picking up the pieces after decades of Christian abuse of authority and people.
The Christians we have spent our lives associating with, mainly through our interest in music, were wonderful people, not because of their beliefs, but because they were wonderful people who happened to go to church.
They treated our non-religion with respect, I still recollect the splashes of holy water on the back of my neck as we left their homes, flicked by the singers because we had forgotten to 'bless ourselves' from the little font by the door as we left.
Not so long ago, we were shown a letter from a friend, long dead, which mentions our visits.
Is said, "they are not believers, but they are probably better Christians than most of those who go to church every week" - cherish that.   
THat sort of respect is more I can say for many of the churchmen we met.
There really isn't anything special about being a Christian, but occasionally it brings a frightening arrogance that you have to be a believer to be good - a wonderful debate in The letter page of the Irish Times on that one.
Any belief can bring bigotry - plenty of it on display here, and during the Referendum campaign.
If anybody feels they need to be a Christian to be good and thoughtful and neighbourly and human.... they've lost before they start.
noe nof Ake's friends are Nazi sympathisers - history is full of Christians who behaved like Nazis, and it is within my lifetime that Pope Pius XII was turning his back on Italian Jews being herded into Hitlers's gas chambers.
This is not to mention the support the church gave to Franco and Pinochet and King Leopold.... and some of history's greatest monsters - good Christians all!
It is not Christianity which causes problems, but the churches who overstep the bounds of their territory and dabble in politics - that, hopefully, is coming to an end in Ireland.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:54 AM

Steve, why is it that your accusations always sound so much like propaganda? Certainly, churches have had their problems. But I've been in the Catholic Church all my life and it's mostly been good for me. I think that's the nature of life. There's mostly good, and some bad.

And some people can see only the bad.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:14 AM

Steve, none of my Christian friends or neighbours are Nazi's or Nazi sympathisers.......the only fascists I have encountered lately are your little gang of political ideologists.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:09 AM

Bill, I don't really understand your link, what were the results of the study and reasons for retraction seem very sketchy?

The primary author seems to oppose retraction?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:05 AM

My God!.....Does nobody remember what happened to the Roman and Greek Empires? :0)


I think we may be in for a re-run!

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:44 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/28/science-retracts-gay-marriage-study_n_7463098.html

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:17 PM

"Christianity has rather a good effect on our society"

Crusades. Inquisition. Murder. Torture. Robbery. Child abuse. Which has had the best effect do you think?

Dave, you forgot to mention the rampant antisemitism acquiesced in for many decades by the Catholic Church before the Third Reich, which helped to soften people up for the Holocaust.   There was also the silence from Pius XII on the deportation of hundreds of Jews from under his nose to death camps, and the way in which this saintly man helped to facilitate the escape of Nazi war criminals to South America. Then there's Mother Teresa telling the poor that their lot was a virtue that they should not only not fight against but a virtue that they should actually celebrate (and she did much more than that). I hear she's in line for a sainthood, just in case anyone tells us that these things are all in the past. We could also mention the effect on the HIV epidemic in Africa, especially on women, of local holy men preaching against the use of condoms. Rather good, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:36 PM

Punkfolkrocker:An interesting article by history professor and author Robert Frakes:

Romans and gay relationships 

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:08 PM

Interesting point punkfolkrocker-I stumbled on this site awhile back:


gay men and Eunuchs 

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:32 PM

...errrmm... wasn't gay love considered kinda manly & noble in the Roman and Greek Empires BC......???????

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:24 PM

""However, I do consider that Jesus audience would have understood that homosexual activity was an abomination and therefore Jesus did not need to spell it out""

Kinda reminds me of The Life Of Brian, where Brian threw a sandal at folks following him (to discourage their persuit) and his eager followers, who mistook him for a prophet, saw it as a sign and began throwing sandals.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:09 PM

I presume you only mistakenly misinterpreted me , joe. I provided the quote from Leviticus as Steve had asked another poster for the reference. However, I do consider that Jesus audience would have understood that homosexual activity was an abomination and therefore Jesus did not need to spell it out, when he referred to genesis to define marriage as a man leaving his parents and being joined to his wife.   I am of course aware of the ceremonial and social laws, and I do not rely on Leviticus alone for my beliefs about this subject. There is a fair bit in the nt too.   And actually, I do think that govt has a certain amount of responsibility to maintain moral standards. I don't suppose polygamous marriage will be legalised just yet, or other possible unions not so far legitimised.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:43 PM

Some people here seem to see all of life through the blinders of ideology. Their only goal is to see that their own ideology triumphs, and that all others are defeated. And since they are so in thrall of their own ideology, they believe that all others must be under similar control.

But most of us don't think that ideology is all that important. We may belong to groups of people who share our general way of thinking, but our thoughts are primarily our own, not something dictated by some authority. We sometimes think thoughts that annoy our friends and families and neighbors a bit, but the world doesn't come to an end because of our aberrant ideology. We may listen to advice from others, but mostly we live our own lives.

We have values and standards that might be called "morals," but we find no reason to impose our morals on the guy down the street. What sense would there be in that?

And this whole ideological world is rather strange to us.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:40 PM

Christianity has rather a good effect on our society

Crusades. Inquisition. Murder. Torture. Robbery. Child abuse. Which has had the best effect do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 15 - 12:49 PM

I've never been a christian, or been that impressed by the idea of any other religion...

After a few years in my early 20s keenly studying moral philosophy,
I felt comfortable enough to settle on my identity as an agnostic
rather than atheist...

Around that same age I also accepted that I was 100% straight,
never had any gay inclination, and most probably never would:
..and I didn't need to feel at all apologetic to gay friends
for not being even the least bit bi-curious...
or tempted to 'try it at least once just for the experience'...

For a couple of years I was the token straight bloke in a gay flat share
and nights out to gay pubs..

I was young and had 'boy band' good looks, was aware gay blokes [and older women]
fancied me.
and just accepted and joked it off as ingredients in having an active social lif
in a big arty farty University City...

No big deal... certainly not the destruction of society...

So can't help being perplexed why in the 21st Century
well educated and seemingly brainy straight blokes in their 60s and 70s
are so fixated on what the gays are getting up to...?????????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 15 - 12:04 PM

"Although I'm presently an atheist"

Did you mean currently, or do you plan to be one soon?


""Presently. In both British English and North American English, presently can mean 'soon' or 'after a short time': I'll be with you presently. In North American English the usual meaning of presently is 'at the present time' or 'now':""

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 28 May 15 - 11:58 AM

"avoiding the pitfall of political ideology."

So, why do you go on and on, whining about what you feel is a so-called global liberal (aka a left of center political idealogy) agenda that is distroying existing societies.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 15 - 11:54 AM

I see what you mean SRS, but although I'm presently an atheist, I think the Christianity has rather a good effect on our society.

I wouldn't like to see a purely secular society.

I have been very touched by the offers of help and prayers from Christians here and in my community.....and of course help from non practicing Christians and non believers here here.

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 15 - 11:53 AM

Should be "good film" - was thinking of the cake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 15 - 11:50 AM

"Monday... "Destroy Society".. there.. definite.."
Tuesday maybe?
Goo film on tele Monday
Jim Carroll