BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 03:49 AM

"And there's me thinking he resigned in shame for calling his euro colleagues terrorists "
Didn't his Euro-colleagues put their political cards on the table by referring to a democratic called referendum as "dishonest" and "a betrayal"?
Sounds like a bunch of political and economic thugs trying to impose their own interests over the will of the people.   
May not be terrorism to you......!!
Colleagues - my arseum - a bunch of moneylenders sending the lads in to foreclose on the loan - today Greece - tomorrow, Portugal, then the rest of Europe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Cookie the cat
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 02:40 AM

And there's me thinking he resigned in shame for calling his euro colleagues terrorists in order to stir up resentment in the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 06:55 PM

Varoufakis was sacrificed in order to improve the prospects of reaching agreement with the creditor countries. A very European coup.

Here's his statement

Thus endeth the political career of the man who embarrassed other Finance Ministers by knowing more about the topic than the rest of them put together.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 04:26 PM

"Greece overwhelmingly voted no! Telling the EU where to stick its austerity!
Varoufakis has resigned and gone back to a quiet life as an economics professor!"

I thought he had threatened to resign if they voted Yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 01:32 PM

Greece hasn't borrowed as such. They have been entrusted to be a host of The Euro. This has obligations. Propping up your branch of the currency is such an obligation. Greece asked to join and were told the price.

Yes, they possibly shouldn't be in it. But to say no at the outset is no better than to blame them now.

The Greeks McGraw refers to aren't the plate smashing, ouzo gulping, eggplant quaffing people but the Greek government, bankers and financiers. If the ordinary Greeks as he puts it, paid their taxes even half way as good as the next worst country, (Portugal) the interest would be feasibly payable.

If anyone takes courage from the Greek stance, they'd have to first understand what the Greeks are standing up to. Other countries in The EU with austerity measures in place would renage too under such claptrap and we all suffer.

Got a pension? Think this doesn't affect you because you are in The UK, Ireland, even The USA? Greece's problem won't cause a recession in your country, but the principle of wiping off debt would.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 12:27 PM

When you lend money, you are taking a risk, and that is reflected in the existance of interest. If you lend money to someone who is skint, and they default, more fool you.

No matter how tight the pressure, Greece isn't in a position to pay debts, and will not be able until it is a functioning economy, and that means writing off the debt, permanently or for a kong time.

This hasn't happened because ordinary Greeks have been borrowing foolishly and spending the cash. It's the fault of bent financiers, the way the crash in 2008 was.

It's very impressive the way Greeks have stood up against the threats and pressure thrown at them in the past few days, and voted to hold firm. I hope other people across Europe will take courage from the Greek example.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 06:01 AM

Ireland needed less measures because it had less debt. Plus a backstreet loan from Uncle George to let them rob Peter to pay Paul.

The UK taxpayer did rather well out of that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 04:44 AM

The 'conditions' being demanded on Greece are far, far worse than anything Ireland suffered, bad as that is and disastrous as it has been for the Irish economy - and for those who bite into the "Ireland is recovering well" bait, remember that one Irish person has been emigrating every six minutes; I went to a professional last week for my annual service (not annual for the last five years, though), and he said his beloved son is emigrating to London because "all his mates are there". The result is a terribly unbalanced society; during the boom 50% of people in Ireland were under 25, now it's a country of sad and wandering grey-haired people using Skype to talk to their children and grandchildren.

Here's what the IMF says on what Europe wants to do to Greece.

How will Americans feel when China calls in its debts and demands that US ports be sold, supports to the poor be slashed and banks hold on to savers' money? And if Americans object, China can say "But you thought it was fine when it was done to the Greeks!"

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Jaffa Cake
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 03:51 AM

Ok, they can't afford the interest let alone the capital.

However, The EU is the sum of the member states and those members, especially in Eastern Europe, or those recently bailed out with stringent conditions such as Ireland and Portugal will not allow Greece to get away with not complying in order to make them more solvent.

They had to.

What will happen? Who knows? But Russia and China are lining up to have an economic interest in Europe, so something must give...

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 02:34 AM

Greece overwhelmingly voted no! Telling the EU where to stick its austerity!

Varoufakis has resigned and gone back to a quiet life as an economics professor!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 11:43 PM

That's a story from three years ago, Guest. However, I doubt anything's changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:27 PM

Christine Lagarde attack on Greece backfires as she pays no tax

Christine Lagarde, the International Monetary Fund managing director who provoked an angry reaction from the Greek people after telling them to pay their taxes, does not pay tax on her own salary, it has emerged.

Ms Lagarde was forced to publish an embarrassing climbdown on her Facebook page over the weekend after being bombarded by hundreds of Greek people who felt insulted by her suggestion that the country's crisis was partly due to "all these people in Greece who are trying to escape tax".

However, on Tuesday she had to admit that her $467,940 (£300,000) annual salary and $83,760 of additional allowances are entirely tax-free as the IMF is an international organisation.

An IMF spokesman said: "Salaries, like those in most international organizations, are paid on a lower, net of tax basis to ensure equal pay for equal work regardless of nationality."

He added that Ms Lagarde, 56, does pay all other "taxes levied on her, including local and property taxes in the US and France".

Ms Lagarde earns more than President Barack Obama and David Cameron, both of whom pay taxes.

The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 06:01 PM

Yes GSS.....the Greek army, backed by guess who?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:54 PM

I Fear that the greek leader might be assassinated, or the greek military will seize control

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:52 PM

"Borrow a little and if you can't pay it back, it's your problem. Borrow a lot and if you can't pay it back, it's the lenders problem." 
― Willi Way

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Airymouse
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:49 PM

One reason they call economics the "dismal science" is that economists never consider what is fair or just or right, just what works. John Maynard Keynes figured out long ago that when a country finds itself with 30% unemployment and contracting GDP, austerity never works.   I remember reading a few years ago that politicians in Great Britain were going to defend the pound by cutting government spending and raising taxes. How did that play out? The EU should have been pushing for reform: routing out government corruption and insuring that (lower) taxes got paid. But the demands they have made have only exacerbated Greece's problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:30 PM

"It's sarcasm, Josh."

"Sarcasm?"

"It's from the Greek, sarkasmos. To bite the lips. It means that you aren't really saying what you mean, but people will get your point. I invented it, Bartholomew named it."

"Well, if the village idiot named it, I'm sure it's a good thing."

"There you go, you got it."

"Got what?"

"Sarcasm."

"No, I meant it."

"Sure you did."

"Is that sarcasm?"

"Irony, I think."

"What's the difference?"

"I haven't the slightest idea."

"So you're being ironic now, right?"

"No, I really don't know."

"Maybe you should ask the idiot."

"Now you've got it."

"What?"

"Sarcasm."

Christopher Moore

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 02:52 PM

"It's a catastrophic success."
Stephen Bishop

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 01:25 PM

The vote is OXI....My faith has been slightly restored. Hopefully we see the start of the demise of the EU.

Well done the Greek people, but the road ahead will be rocky and torturous......remember Cuba!!

Even tho'....the signs for all newly independent nations are good...get the European heel off your neck.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:58 AM

"But Jim, how much knowledge does a holiday give you about a country's economic realities? "
You can, of course, only get a general impression - if you are interested enough, you fill in the gaps with reading, etc.
Why ask the question if the answer is immaterial?
Your American analogy is an artificial one - nobody is pontificating, we are giving opinions based on what we know (or believe we know).
The argument (often used on this forum), that you have no right to express an opinion on somewhere you don't live would make virtually all discussions on this forum null and void, as we all live somewhere and don't live somewhere else!
What they usually boil down to is "your opinion doesn't coincide with mine".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:22 AM

I suppose I see myself as European. My husband is Dutch, I am English, we live in Scotland, ski in France, holiday in Italy and I occasionally teach in Germany and Sweden.

Living in Scotland helps with the European feel. The Scottish government are exceedingly pro European and the recent referendum delivered an answer as much on fear of an uncertain EU status if the nationalist minority had their way as much as anything else.

Parking up in town this morning for bell ringing was a challenge as it can be every summer. All the cars from holiday makers from Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Italy.....

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:33 AM

But Jim, how much knowledge does a holiday give you about a country's economic realities? Imagine if Americans started pontificating about Ireland, based on their holiday experience? (An example: in the depths of the crash a couple of Dutch friends told me they thought Ireland was really doing ok, since when they left their hotel and walked around the Grafton Street area lots of people were sitting outside cafes eating and drinking wine and coffee. Of course one class was doing ok; but this was not true of most people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:21 AM

"How many people here have even been on holiday in Greece,"
Been between a dozen to fifteen times - mainly to Crete and latterly, Northern Greece - magic, especially the music!!
Our tendency to stay in the non - popular venues and rent a car, enabling us to travel further afield has, I believe, given us a reasonable insight into the rural countryside.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:47 AM

So many opinions, so little knowledge. How many people here have even been on holiday in Greece, much less worked and lived there.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:51 AM

Why so Gargoyle, As a Scot, I don't feel at all European, in fact I believe that my national ties are more with the United States as historically very many Scot made their lives in America, and helped shape its constitution.

I feel your mention of Germany in this context, is ever so slightly emotive?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 03:42 AM

Nice article in Der Spiegel ... regarding the different scenarios and their cost to Germany.


www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-1041369.html


Sincerely,
Gargoyle

In the same issue is an opinion piece about anti European feeling.

Europe is not only tired -- it is also a disappointment. This has also meant the loss of a quite likeable species: the European. In the 1970s and 1980s, many people in Germany felt more European than they did German. You don't hear people say that very often anymore, and that's sad."

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:46 PM

Thanks for the pearls of wisdom GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:43 PM

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." 
― Hélder Câmara, Dom Helder Camara: Essential Writings

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for those Acme - didn't know about Puero Rica, though I am aware that the problem is not confined to Greece
The PBS report, as you say, is excellent.
Ireland has opted for letting the people pay for the bankers' mess-up - the result - water and property charges, sale of the stare airline into private hands and little sign of a let up.
One of the fascinating aspects of all this is the knock-on effect that this will have on other states - even the E.M.F. is in a panic.
Today's reports suggest a %57% majority for a no vote - fingers crossed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 10:09 AM

American news coverage:

Diane Rehm Show on NPR discussed it last week. One hour.

PBS News Hour segment on the election. Excellent story.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 09:47 AM

"Nobody is telling the Greek electorate how to vote, well none outside the country that is"
In practical terms they are - instigate crippling austerity policies or we'll ruin your economy.
Comparison with what is happening in Greece, and other countries in crises which have been cause by worldwide banking greed and dishonesty (none of the rightists here have bothered to deny this) is facile.
Even as far as personal loans are concerned, people all over the world were pressurised into borrowing money and did so believing it was safe - "because the bank manager said it was"
THat is the root cause of mortgage arrears, homelessness and increasing poverty.
How about you taking your had out of the sand and dealing with that one PAL?
If I, as an electrician. had advised a lighting circuit that caused a fire and burned a house down, I would quite likely be facing a charge of criminal negligence.
What did the bankers do? - go to the government for a bailout, and when they got it, awarded themselves massive bonuses to put right their own mess.
Deal with that one too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 08:39 AM

on every news broadcast, you can see folks promoting what they see as self interest.
I despair of socialism ever being adopted and made to work...perhaps it's just too much to ask of "conditioned" humans?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 08:26 AM

Nobody is telling the Greek electorate how to vote, well none outside the country that is. The Greeks are telling the Greeks how to vote.

What the rest of the world is saying is - "you're bankrupt, deal with it. And take yer head outa the sand - PAL!".

Now when did any of us last go to the bank manager for an overdraft? The last itme I did it I was refused so I took my debt elsewhere. There are global options, Greece took out one Faustian pact and seem amazed it is being called in, there are other Demons hovering ready to Putin (as it were).

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:17 AM

If the E.U.gets its way, we might as well abandon national elections - it's only a hair-breath away from "elect who we want or we'll foreclose on the loan". well said

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:50 AM

In a car crash, the one most at fault inevitably gets out and lays claim to innocence by accusing the other driver.

It seems that this "slow crash" is getting a lot of the guilty shouting "Foul" before the crunch.

If a beggar came to you drunk and smoking and addressed you in an aggressive manner - what would you do? Some might lecture him on profligacy and efficient use of meagre resources, most would walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:13 AM

The philosopher [Gao] said, 'Man's nature is like water whirling round in a corner. Open a passage for it to the east, and it will flow to the east; open a passage for it to the west, and it will flow to the west. Man's nature is indifferent to good and evil, just as the water is indifferent to the east and west.'

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Musket sans ginger nuts
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:22 AM

Mind you, you must always consider whether you can afford a loan before taking it out.

Similarly, the lender must ensure the customer can afford the repayments.

Propping up the Euro has always been a political decision, but in the real world politicians are impotent when reality pops in for a cuppa.

It's a bit like saying qualifications and training are harmonised, but if you think for one minute a doctor from Bulgaria can walk into a consultant job here..... We break EU law in insisting on a training period with sign off before UK registration.

The EU model is a good one till you start harmonising too much. This fiscal idea being an excellent example. I note The IMF are saying Greece cannot afford the interest payments, never mind the capital so it is a bit silly getting them to agree to something they physically cannot honour.

That said, you can't ask in a referendum and then tell your creditors that they have to do what the democratic will of their people says. It's fuck all to do with Greece, it's the troika's money.

A dog's dinner. Oh, and both Grishka and Jim are making good points because there is no right and wrong here, just valid points either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:02 AM

"Who am I to tell Greeks what "system" they should introduce? "
Who are you to tell the Greeks they should pay their debt?
"What I mean is that fighting tax evasion and all other forms of corruption is at the heart of the problem"
That's been part of the present Government's policy - not going to happen if the right get their way
Blaming the Greek people as a whole - now that's what I call "classic"
Most people don't have "cash registers" - the corruption centres on the wealth, wo have been untouchable up to now.
" and by institutions that are sufficiently trusted not to favour some particular clique secretly. "
Such as - te right, in general, supports the status quo?
Interesting interview with a Greek spokesman on Irish radio this morning.
He proposes that European countries such as Greece, Portugal and Ireland, who have been badly effected by te economic crash, should get together and thrash out a common proposal on debt to be put to the E.U.
Grrece maybe in the limelight, but they are certainly not alone in their position.
If the E.U.gets its way, we might as well abandon national elections - it's only a hair-breath away from "elect who we want or we'll foreclose on the loan".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM

What do yo7 mean by a "revolution" - the establishment of a socialist system in Greece?

Who am I to tell Greeks what "system" they should introduce? They must make up their minds. (It seems to me that most of them love their small businesses, which would be incompatible with classical Marxist doctrine.)

What I mean is that fighting tax evasion and all other forms of corruption is at the heart of the problem. Most Greeks would agree, but do not want the fight to start at their own cash register - for fear that it might end there as well. Therefore, it must be done simultaneously, and by institutions that are sufficiently trusted not to favour some particular clique secretly. Syriza claimed that position, but few voters really believed them - the others just thought it worth a try for want of a better alternative. Last week they all tried to cash their savings.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:34 AM

I wonder if George Soros could afford to bail Greece out?

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM

". In my message of 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM, I advocated a "revolution" to get the state running at last"
What do yo7 mean by a "revolution" - the establishment of a socialist system in Greece?
Presumably not
I stated at the beginning that the Crisis in Greece as the result of greed and political corruption and incompetence within the world economic system going viral, causing world-wide crises (Ireland was a typical example)
That remains my view.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:21 AM

Jim, we hear you. In my message of 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM, I advocated a "revolution" to get the state running at last. Debts may be discussed after this has succeeded - which will not be any time soon. At the moment nobody expects back a substantial percentage, so that all new credits amount to donations. Donations are made more happily if there is some hope.

Just now I am listening to a discussion between young Greeks in English on the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

"Classical"austerity - is there any other kind?
" As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!"
Where - or is this to be left as my question on the left's disillusionment with the present government - unanswered.
I looked at your message 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM - it really says nothing other than "pay your debts" - austerity will follow as night follows day.
The rightist policy in Greece is austerity and a new election (having lost the last one) putting 'democracy' in Greece in the hands of the European right-wing - fine, if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
Still no comment of financing France and Germany - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

"Classical"austerity - is there any other kind?
" As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!"
Where - or is this to be left as my question on the left's disillusionment with the present government - unanswered.
I looked at your message 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM - it really says nothing other than "pay your debts" - austerity will follow as night follows day.
The rightist policy in Greece is austerity and a new election (having lost the last one) putting 'democracy' in Greece in the hands of the European right-wing - fine, if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
Still no comment of financing France and Germany - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

"Classical"austerity - is there any other kind?
" As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!"
Where - or is this to be left as my question on the left's disillusionment with the present government - unanswered.
I looked at your message 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM - it really says nothing other than "pay your debts" - austerity will follow as night follows day.
The rightist policy in Greece is austerity and a new election (having lost the last one) putting 'democracy' in Greece in the hands of the European right-wing - fine, if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
Still no comment of financing France and Germany - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

"Classical"austerity - is there any other kind?
" As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!"
Where - or is this to be left as my question on the left's disillusionment with the present government - unanswered.
I looked at your message 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM - it really says nothing other than "pay your debts" - austerity will follow as night follows day.
The rightist policy in Greece is austerity and a new election (having lost the last one) putting 'democracy' in Greece in the hands of the European right-wing - fine, if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
Still no comment of financing France and Germany - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

"Classical"austerity - is there any other kind?
" As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!"
Where - or is this to be left as my question on the left's disillusionment with the present government - unanswered.
I looked at your message 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM - it really says nothing other than "pay your debts" - austerity will follow as night follows day.
The rightist policy in Greece is austerity and a new election (having lost the last one) putting 'democracy' in Greece in the hands of the European right-wing - fine, if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
Still no comment of financing France and Germany - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:23 AM

I am not proposing classical austerity (see my message of 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM). Neither am I in favour of a "Yes" vote in the sense of the referendum - even if that could work as claimed.

For a truly leftist proposal, see Richard Bridge's. The current government is nationalist/populist. As for the colonels, they already have plenty of those, unashamedly flattered by Tsipras and his right-wing echo!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:25 PM

"I am arguing for new elections from the point of view of the Greek people"
No you are not - you are arguing it n behalf of your own political stance.
How on earth is introducing further austerity measures going to help the "poor and those who are about to become poor" - the E.U. is going to drop all claims to what is own.... yeah, sure it is!!!
The Greek people have the opportunity to give their verdict on the debt on Sunday - your friends have described that as "a betrayal" ad "dishonest" - so much for democracy!
What you are proposing is that because the bailiffs are hammering on the door, the Greek Government should resign, leaving the people to the consequences.
You are replacing hard won Greek democracy with rule by bankers (via Angela the Merkin's mob) - bloody outrageous.
May just as well call back the Colonels.
And still you refuse to comment on the morality of a nation in trouble having to pay into a fund to make France and Germany even wealthier than they already are - no need to ask which side you are on!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:45 PM

Jim, please read a newspaper you trust. You refer to Syriza as "he" - haha.

I am arguing for new elections from the point of view of the Greek people, of course, those who are poor and those who are about to become poor.