BS: E Milliband was unelectable

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:04 AM

"Ultra left wingers do not inhabit the Labour Party. Look elsewhere for the true lefties. Jeremy is a bunny rabbit compared to some of the people you'd find in the SWP, for example."

SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.
Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM

More importantly, we have sunshine after 4 days of 1st rain since April in Alicante!'

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:07 AM

Me Guest 04:04

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:11 AM

So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:51 AM

Funny how the far left are said "infiltrate" a supposedly left-wing party that's meant to be a broad church... Anyway, Keith, less of the dark rumour-mongering. Where's your evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 09:46 AM

Very pleased that Cameron had the guts to authorise droning of the 2 British jihadist ragheads

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:00 AM

Evidence Steve?
Are you not following the debacle at all?

"Mann (Labour MP) told Harman (acting leader): "[The election] should be halted. It is becoming a farce with longstanding members … in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up – some of it is the Militant Tendency-types coming back in.
"It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/26/jeremy-corbyn-genuine-labour-supporters-leadership-election

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same.

Yes Rag, and it still is.
The Tories want him to win too, but for different reasons.

I am surprised that neither of you is aware of all this.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM

And I'm surprised that the only evidence you've offered is the say-so of a rather neurotic MP.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 12:49 PM

I think Keith is probably right and the SWP and other socialists will be working for Jeremy's election, surely no one can be daft enough to deny that.

But these guys are hardened politicos I know some of them and they are not daft either, they want the party to split, as we will never see socialism advanced as an alternative until it does.
we may never get power in my lifetime, but if PR is adopted at least people can be given the choice as to what type of future they want for their families and the country.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:09 PM

Are you being disingenuous or naive Steve?
What evidence would I personally have?
I know it is true because it is common knowledge in the Labour Party, and it has been very widely reported.
I just gave the first example that popped up.
Want more?

Are you seriously claiming to be unaware that infiltration is a major issue in this election?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM

"A member of the Labour national executive committee told the Sunday Times: "It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party."
The Communist party has urged its supporters to vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership race.
Labour MP John Mann told the Sunday Times the situation was "totally out of control" and called on acting leader Harriet Harman to suspend the process for admitting new members while checks can be carried out.
"It is becoming a farce with longstanding members... in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up," he said.
John Cryer, who chairs the Parliamentary Labour Party, told the Mail on Sunday members of the TUSC have been joining as registered supporters for £3, which gives them the right to vote in the leader and deputy leader elections.
The TUSC was formed in 2010 with the help of the Socialist Party, which was the successor of Militant Tendency.
"These people were thrown out of the Labour Party and should not be allowed to vote," Mr Cryer said to the newspaper.
Former minister Lord Hutton added that it would be a "travesty" if members of Militant Tendency were able to influence the election."
- See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-concern-over-infiltration-leadership-contest#sthash.KPboNd8K.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:22 PM

I can't find, after albeit a quick look, any membership numbers for the SWP.

I cannot imagine it is a large number and as such is highly unlikely to affect the leadership election of the labour party.

I doubt if their numbers amount to more than a few thousand in total, certainly not the 160,000 that applied for the right to vote in the final 24 hours of registration.

New Members

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:48 PM

There is not an election that has ever been held on this planet, no matter how "free and fair", that hasn't had someone or other trying to cheat. It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion. So far, you have provided quotes from a neurotic Labour MP, a right-winger who supports Yvette fer chrissake, but no hard evidence. It is well known that Jeremy's opponents will try anything to diss him, especially her. Actually, knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy. .

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:19 PM

"Like it or not, he has to show respect for the Queen and the nation"

Has any ever seen Jeremy Corbyn being rude or discourteous, even to those who are hostile to him?

Obviously Jeremy Corbyn will treat the Queen with respect, as he would treat any other person with respect, including of course any 89 year old lady. And why should anybody think that he does not respect this nation which he has served as an MP for more than 30 years?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:31 PM

Just watched a recording of the Panarama problem about Corbyn. it would have been better named Paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy.

I do not have one.
Middle of the road. Centre right. The English default.

It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion.

And I have.
I have quoted leading Labour figures.
I have seen and heard it on the BBC, the other broadcasters and the published media, and will provide more examples if you want.

Can you quote any Labour insider refuting that infiltration is an issue.
No.
You can't because it is just another assertion, unsupported and unsupportable because it is, as ever, wrong.
I can support mine because it is, as ever, correct.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM

Guardian. (Which you say you read Steve)

"Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister "

"With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators,"

"More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000.

According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number.
The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties."

"Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters.
Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media."

"We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 06:59 AM

That was nearly three weeks ago, Keith. Got any updates? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 07:02 AM

And it was from a rabid left wing rag!!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:03 AM

Nothing new to say about it.
You think the infiltration stopped since then?
Why would it?
It ends tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:05 AM

Panorama was just the day before yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:20 AM

"Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added"

From your Guardian article Professor, you chose to be very selective. Some of us read the whole article and judge accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:12 AM

Heheh. Sussed, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:30 AM

That quote was from the 26th July piece!
Obviously, from the more recent articles and broadcasts, plenty of evidence has emerged.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:35 AM

Spectator, 21st August,

"For Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper, entryism is their chief concern and Team Burnham have decided to publicly raise the issue. Michael Dugher, Burnham's campaign chair, has written to Labour general secretary Iain McNico calling for an urgent meeting to discuss what can be done."

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM

Of course if the Spectator writes it, it MUST be true.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:05 PM

The Spectator confirms everything else.
I think that I believe BBC, Guardian, Spectator and actual leading Labour figures themselves over unsupported assertions from you!
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:16 PM

Professor, you really are childish ........... your expression "you lose" indicates just how very, very juvenile your thinking is.

Most people here would like to like to enhance their knowledge by communicating with other folk.

You, on the other hand, have to WIN. It is quite sad.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Ragyytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM

Just as an aside, what assertions have I made. I cannot recall asserting anything.

But I am prepared to be corrected on that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:22 PM

Nobody ever won a General Election without people who hadn't voted for them before changing to vote for them, including many people who had voted for other parties, obviously.

Former Tory MPs have crossed the floor and even become Labour Ministers. And of course Winston Churchill was a Liberal MP before he crossed over and became a Conservative.

Calling people who have backed the Greens or left parties "entryists" is a bit absurd.

Primary elections in the States are often conpletely open affairs - and when Harriet Harman announce this electoral system earlier this year she specifically said that anyone on the electoral roll would be entitled to sign up and vote for the party leader. Of course they moved the goalposts after that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:37 AM

Rag, that "entryism" and infiltration have been issues in this debacle is common knowledge, widely discussed and reported.

I mentioned it and Steve challenged me on it with your help, but you failed to make a case because you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM

I quoted from the same bloody article as you.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Yes, and I showed that the quote was many weeks out of date.
Burnham was then asking for evidence.
Later he acknowledged the issue. He had his evidence.
You were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 06:17 AM

I asked you to demonstrate that Labour's "infiltration" issue is somehow out of proportion. We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of this particular case, for motives known only to yourself (though guessed at by some of us). So is it worse than other cases you've come across (you could check with your historians...)? Is it going to make any difference to the outcome? Or can you find only desperate sources who live in fear of a Corbyn victory?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:54 AM

So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:30 AM

We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of t

Not at all.
You asked for evidence so I produced it.
When you said it was insufficient, I produced more.
When you said an old piece was inconclusive, I showed that more recent stuff was.

It was you who made an issue of it by expressing doubts and demanding evidence.

Each time I posted I thought it was finished, but you and Rag kept coming back.

Let's drop it.

So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence.

In the July article he wanted evidence for entryism.
In the more recent ones, he no longer does. He accepts that entryism is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:43 AM

So show me an election in which a degree of skulduggery isn't an "issue". The question which you seem unable to address is how big an issue and whether it is capable of affecting the result. You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again.

Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 09:33 AM

The fact that something is "commonly known, widely known and reported" does not actually mean it is true.

Clearly there has been entryism from Conservatives, though whether that was to vote for Corbyn or against is unclear. There have also been cases on people who have recently been candidates of othe parties who signed, which an readonably be termed entryism, though of course such people could still quite truthfully have claimed tyat they support the aims and principles of the Labour Party..

But to bar people as being entryists because they have voted for other parties, tactically or because they may have have seen them as better vehicles for the principles of the Labour Party than New Labour, or have expressed such views in public would be going too far.

Anyway, we'll see. Let's hope whatever result there is the margin of votes will be big enough to make all this stuff insignificant, rather than some Bush-Gore voting shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:55 AM

Rag,
You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again.

I did not.

Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts.

If he first needed evidence, and then he did not, it is a reasonable assumption that he found some.

Now a question for you.
Why is "You lose" childish, if "Heh Heh. You're sussed" is not?
And, I was not "sussed."
The quote was out of date and irrelevant weeks before this thread even started.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM

Steve,
. You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left.

Hardly Steve.
My statement was just,
"SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.
Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn."

They were said to be.
No scaremongering from me.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM

This has been the most interfered-with election by non members I can ever remember
The right-wing press have launched a scurrilous campaign to demonise Corbyn - the Mail and the Times being the two worst - each day, the Times has run an-anti Corbyn article - last week he was depicted as 'Freddie' from Nightmare on Elm Street warning what would happen "if you didn't wake up".
Within the Labour Party, the right have barred members from standing for election because they "don't share our values"
Politics in Britain is now firmly in the hands of the right, thanks to Labour selling out its principles in order to hold office - sod the electorate - sod principles - keep the tories in power with undemocratic deals and coalitions.
There is no evidence to suggest an infiltration by the left - I wish to Christ there were, then perhaps the disillusioned electorate would be given a proper democratic choice.
If people genuinely object to interference in the democratic process, why not complain about press interference and right-wing political bias - that might bring the people who have walked away from parliamentary politics in disgust back
Infiltration of the Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:25 AM

On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating.


The only thing that matters in the meantime is that JC is elected leader and the old Blairite wing splits off and joins the Liberals, where they belong.
Jeremy will lead a socialist Labour Party which will include all sectors of socialist opinion.
In saying that, it will take PR and several elections if a socialist system is ever to be introduced.
Whereever we are coming from on the political spectrum, there is simply no way that this wasteful and ecologically unsustainable system can carry on into another century.....all shades of political opinion must be made to realise that.....the days of the great economic powers must surely be coming to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:07 PM

"On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating."
Once again you support the extreme right point of view and ignore the fact that the right have been interfering in this election sincs day one - Socialism needs such socialists like Troy needed a Wooden Horse
Keith is always right -- as right as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM

The last thing we need is narrow minded fools who do not realise the whole of society will be involved in the change, not just a few woolly minded soft lefties.

Try to convince people not browbeat them, do you not think it would be a good thing for Labour to ditch the Blairanistas, or are you a trickle down socialist?
Although Keith and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, he is almost always right when debating you people, because your ideology is based on myth.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:30 PM

Once again you support the extreme right point of view

Not mine Jim.
I do not put extreme right views because I have none.
I am centre/centre right, like most people in England.
I voted Labour in the Blair years.



I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did.
I linked to Guardian.
Shame on you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

GSS, it's maybe no big deal that you don't know how to spell Miliband, but please say where you think Ed has suggested how people should vote in the leadership election.

One thing's certain: the Labour Party will be praying for a decisive result. If it's close, legal challenges will be almost inevitable (though not instigated by any of the candidates). The election process has been a total clusterfuck.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM

"Not mine Jim."
Yup - sure is - don't come much righter
"I voted Labour in the Blair years."
Don't care - the ideas you put up here are extreme right.
"I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did."
Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows..
Please dont be crude in your attemps to extract yourself - or to avoid the point
The right is infiltrating Labour- The Labour party is the natural home of the left until the feller you voted for in the Blair years.   
Respond to the facts and stop waffling.
THE RIGHT HAS ATTEMPTED TO INTERFERE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS OF ELECTING
A LABOUR LEADER and you are ignoring that fact and attempting to blame the left
Jim Carroll