BS: E Milliband was unelectable

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:38 PM

More like a pillowfight really. Good knockabout stuff, most of the time. The press coverage has been rather nastier at times, I suspect. Which has probably actually helped firm up the Corbyn vote.

I can't see the Blair lot joining the LidDems, or being welcomed if they tried. If they migrate to another party it would have to be the Tories. More likely would be to set up a seperate group of their own. But I think they are more likely to sit on their hands and try to freeze out Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:04 PM

"Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows"

Absolute rubbish Jim, I would have expected better from you.

Of course the "left" is infiltrating Labour....They're not daft, the first chance they have had to get their ideas across for fifty years.

Of course a few Tory voters are joining the Labour Party to help Jeremy be elected it's called tactics and all Parties do it....The Tories quite rightly think that in the short term they shall have the field to themselves.
How the hell do you work out that the SNP don't want Jeremy elected?
A split Party and Labour in disarray would ensure a huge SNP victory in the Scottish Elections. The SNP Don't want Cooper or Burnham elected. (trust me)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:31 PM

I'm still waiting for the "facts" professor. You know the one's about entryism that you were adamant about.

Come on tell me all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:55 PM

BNP/ SNP :0)... "Should have gone to specsavers"...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:18 PM

just to say i am a left infiltrator who has voted for jeremy corbyn and will join the party on monday. i have been waiting for 40 years to work for a labour party that is socialist. of course, it may well go horribly wrong - but you have to try eh?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:49 PM

The old slogan "no enemy on the left" has not always been true. But there are occasions when it helps clear the mind, and it gives the lie to talk about entryism from the Greens and the rest, and shows up the hypocrisy of the pre-election expressions of antagonism to the prospect of recognising the SNP as allies.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:57 AM

Jim,
the ideas you put up here are extreme right.

Completely untrue Jim.
Will you give an example?
No.
It is a lie

the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn

Untrue AGAIN Jim!
I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it.
And I had referred to infiltration from the right long before!

The difference was it went unchallenged and uncommented on.
No-one demanded evidence and made an issue of it.

Rag,
What are you on about now?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:10 AM

"SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn."

Facts to back up a statement like this for a start Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:32 AM

If you are going to be insulting, wouldn't you be better to let us know who you are/

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:59 AM

Rag.
SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.

Remember Militant Tendency in the eighties?


Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn.

I linked to Guardian and other sources who did say that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Guardian,
"The process began in 1983 when the five members of Militant's editorial board were expelled (from Labour Party). In 1986 a further nine went, including Derek Hatton, the Liverpool council deputy leader, Tony Mulhearn, the chairman of the Liverpool district Labour party, Ian Lowes, the leader of the powerful GMB No. 5 branch in Liverpool city council, and Richard Venton, the Militant Merseyside spokesman. In 1987 three Militants were expelled, in 1988 the pace picked up with 29 thrown out, in 1990 a total of 34 were expelled and, in the six months to June this year, a further 26 had lost their party cards. Since then a further six from Tower Hamlets, East London, have been thrown out, making a grand total to date of 125.

The expulsions affected areas as far apart as Stevenage, St Helens, Cardiff Central, Islywn, East Berkshire, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, Southwark, Eddisbury and Newcastle East. The single biggest expulsion from one constituency came last year when eight Militant supporters were ousted in Glasgow Cathcart.

Yesterday's agreed plans to start the process of disciplining a further 62, and possibly as many as 140 more, represents a shift of gear. However, this must be set against Militant claims - albeit unprovable - of between 2,000 to 3,000 supporters inside the party."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/16/militant-derek-hatton-labour-party-1991

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:18 AM

The same Guardian articles that said there was no evidence remember.

"Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added"

You now start referring to something that happened in the 80's & early 90's

That's more than your 20 year cut off point in other threads and has sweet FA to do with the current election.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:36 AM

"Will you give an example?"
You don't really want me to reopen all those extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed to prove your cultural theory and get this thread closed, do you?
No - thought not.
"I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it."
You used it and continue to do so
Now you are suggesting that it is wrong to quote the BNP's claim to have infiltrated the Labour Party - ie implicate them with the left ignore the extreme right - par for the course I say.
The left were harried out of the labour party or left of their own accord when it went "New Labour" under Blair - in alliance with the Tories, it has failed Britain abysmally - Oil Wars, recessions, bankers sprees, political corruption, hardship homelessness, whittling away of the rights of working people while massively increasing teh gap between the haves and have-nots - all products of Labour, Liberal, Tory co-operation.
They have shown themselves totally unfit to govern.
It's about time the Labour party was put back into the hands of the people who created it to see if they can make a better job of it.
No more you and me here Keith - you are up to your own "I win" tricks
Respond to the state of things rather than trawling for quotes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:01 AM

I'm somewhat mystified by references to Militant "infiltrating" Labour, or their being accused of entryism. To infiltrate or enter, first of all you need to be outside looking in. That was not true of Militant, which consisted of Labour Party members. The accusation may, however, be levelled fairly at Tories who join Labour in order to vote for Corbyn. Lefties now joining the party - well there's a conundrum. The Labour Party has been the natural home of non-revolutionary left-wingers in the UK and it seems odd to be accusing such people of entryism. Rallying round would be more like it, I reckon. I've never been a member, but I am generally of that persuasion, so suppose I'd joined last month in order to play a part in the election. Would that make me an infiltrator or entryist? I'd like to suggest that these terms have been usurped by the right-wing media and used pejoratively to highlight (yet again, tediously) a mythical sinister left-wing side of Labour. If the history of Labour in recent decades has taught us anything, it's that the only truly sinister aspect of the party is right-wing Blairism.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:39 AM

extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed

Filthy lie Jim.
I never have, while you just linked to BNP!
I quoted Straw, Labour Minister; Cryer, Labour MP; Ahmed, Labour politician and peer, and Alibhai Brown, left wing writer and journalist.

Rag, you queried two of my statements, one historic and one current.
I provided an archive Guardian piece about the historic one, and up to date Guardian and other pieces on the current one.

Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled.
They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:46 AM

Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any.

You have attempted, as is your want, to change the subject by introducing an irrelevant piece from decades ago.

I was going to use one of your pet sayings but I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:54 AM

"Filthy lie Jim."
Yeah - sure it is !!!
You have even told us that it was wrong to expose the BNP claims of entryism into the Labour Party - now there's a Freudian slip, if ever there was one - god alone knows what excuse you are going to come up for with that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

"Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled.
They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour."

Their views and values are immaterial in the current context of this discussion. And they were Labour. The fact is that Militant consisted of Labour Party members and were not infiltrators. They didn't just spring up when Derek Hatton was around, you know. You can't infiltrate something that you're already in. They may have been a group within a group, but that's no different from the Fabian Society or Labour Friends Of Israel or the 1922 Committee or the Monday Club. The use of "infiltrate" or "entryism" is a well-known right-wing ploy for smearing those on the left of the party. It's no surprise that they enjoy pride of place in your personal lexicon, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:19 AM

Steve, the Labour party expelled them.
The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour.
The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want.
The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party.
The far left were not invited

Rag,
Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any

I have produced reports, from Guardian and other reputable sources, that it is regarded as a serious issue by the Labour Party.

Jim,
"Filthy lie Jim."
Yeah - sure it is !!!

It is. Vindictive and malicious.
I have never, ever used, "extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed"
You have no answer to what I say, so you make up shit against me.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:31 AM

You have copied articles but they and you have not provided any EVIDENCE nor have they or you provided FACTS. Inuendo, gossip, suppositions by the bucketload but nothing concrete. Until you or them can provide anything else I will treat the with extreme caution.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:37 AM

Senior Labour officials saying there is an issue is hard evidence that there is an issue Rag.

E.g. one of my recent Guardian quotes
"Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister "


"With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators,"

"More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000.

According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number.
The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties."

"Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters.
Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media."

"We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:59 AM

I'm off on holiday

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 12:22 PM

"It is. Vindictive and malicious."
No it isn't Keith
I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary.
You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it - you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that!
"I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did......shame on you Jim."
If that isn't an indication of your politics - what is it?
And you continue to claim thatr they have been infiltrated by the left - on the word of a press that has admitted there is no evidence for such a claim and on the word of the right-wing labour leadership, hopefully about to be replaced by somebody who stands for what the Labour Party was created for in the first place.
Why should the left have to infiltrate the Party - it is people like them who created it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:20 PM

Steve, the Labour party expelled them.

Therefore they were members of the party, as I have repeatedly told you. You can't infiltrate the Labour Party if you're a member of the Labour Party.

The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour.

But they were the Labour Party. What you mean is that certain right-wing elements in the then Labour Party wanted them out. Other elements defended them. Important Labour figures on the left such as Eric Heffer, Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn defended them. I doubt that any of those were your cup of tea, but, like Militant, they were members of the Labour Party.

The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want.

What a ridiculous thing to say. The party wants what the party elects tomorrow via a democratic process. The "existing party" is not a single mind. That's been one of Labours historical strengths. I note that you make no comment about your right-wing Tory bedfellows infiltrating.

The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party.

See above.

The far left were not invited

Who was "invited", then, Keith? God, you're struggling tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:24 PM

Sorry, apostrophe police.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:43 PM

Steve yes.
They infiltrated and then had to be expelled.

Jim,
You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it

No.
I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first.

- you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that!

No.
I said it was wrong to link to a BNP site, and you did so without warning people where your link would take them.

I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary.

It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view, or used an Islamophobic site.

If you are not a vile, malicious liar, produce ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE.

Good luck with that, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:45 PM

lie to claim that I have ever expressed a far right wing view

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM

They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated". People with the same politics as Militant have always found a home in the Labour Party and you know it. Left wing factions at the time of Militant were absolutely nothing new. They were never outsiders looking in. It seems to me that nice, right-wingers who fit your agenda join parties, whereas those nasty lefties infiltrate parties. If you don't wish to be accused of making right-wing statements, you need to stop making comments that make you sound like a mainstream Daily Mail scaremonger. In any case, no doubt your usual desperate tactic of getting all nasty will have the effect you desire, that is, getting the thread closed.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:24 PM

i have left the labour party a few times - usually because of the warmongering- but will join again on monday if jeremy corbyn is elected. having a left labour leader is what i have been waiting for for 40 years so it would be foolish to ignore the election now. i am the person you read about in the press - i have, twice, been in the swp and got stuck into the factional fighting in the early '80s. in the last election i was a green party candidate after being involved in the scottish 'yes' campaign. in short i am a socialist, an active trade unionist and have always been motivated by peace and human rights. that and a loathing of the tories and all their works. at heart, i am a bennite.
anyway, i paid my £3 and have made no secret of my views and history to the local labour party. nobody has questioned my right to vote for jeremy corbyn. in fact i have been invited to stand as a delegate for the constituency party (though this may be an error)
so good for the labour party and my local MP.
what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the tories, together.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:52 PM

apologies if i have posted similar before.
a bit of hope has made me all repetitive!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:19 PM

"I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first."
Yet you ignore one and pursue the other - without a shred of evidence and you objected to my raising BNP infiltration "shame on you" - why did you do that?
"It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view"
Hah!!
There are dozens of examples and you know it - but to raise them again here (as I have over the years) would be to close this thread - which is what you appear to want.
"what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the Tories, together."
Drink to that anytime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:53 PM

Jim,
Yet you ignore one and pursue the other

No.
Everyone ignored it when I raised the issue of right infiltration.
For left wing, I was asked for evidence and then told it was inadequate so I produced more.
All I did was respond to what others asked of me.

There are dozens of examples and you know it -

I know no such thing liar.
You never have and never could find a single example because there are none.
It is all shitty lies from a shitty liar.

Steve,
They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated".

I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party.
The SWP.
Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, which was why Labour had to expel them.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:50 PM

"The far left was not invited"

It was actually, along with everyone else.

Harriet Harman on May 18 announcing voting arrangements for party leader: "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter, pay £3 and have a vote to decide our next leader. This is the first time a political party in this country has opened up its leadership contest in this way and I think there will be a real appetite for it out there".

She was right in that last bit!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:21 PM

Well said indeed both Kevin and achmelvich (don't want to leave you out either, Jim!). Makes Keith's desperate right-wing wranglings look like the last-gasp protests of the owld curmudgeon that he really is. By the way, Keith, if you really want to tell us that everyone in Militant was in the SWP, let's have your evidence, names and pack drill please, Keith. You accuse others of making stuff up, don't you. So let's have it, chapter and verse please. Who in Militant was in the SWP? Name names! Come along now, Keith! We're all waiting!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:38 PM

"Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, "
Labour Party has been subverted by the right and made indistinguishable from those who have cause all the things that is wrong with Britain today
Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information - an indication of your political credentials.
You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims
"I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party."
From today's Daily Telegraph:
"Andy Burnham demands 'urgent' meeting over Tory infiltrators in Labour leadership contest"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 08:07 PM

Keith is utterly typical of the Murdoch/Mail tendency. Find whatever negatives you can about the left, true or not, and dress it up with murmurings about entryism and infiltration. Don't bother with the facts by the way. They just get in the way of a good yarn, they do.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:37 AM

Will there be a legal challenge? Difficult to predict, and I don't know English law well enough, but if it is legal I would expect the challenge to come from someone associated with the media and the right, not one of the candidates. It is very much in those people's interests to keep doubts about the validity going, whereas the party can see the sense of insisting the election was valid. Even the 'Common Good' group seem to be aiming to contain Corbyn, not overthrow him.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:59 AM

I have not even expressed an opinion about any of this, and I do not have one.
It is an interesting situation, but not relevant to me at all.

I raised the issue of infiltration from both right and left, and I raised the issue of Tory infiltration first. By many weeks.
No-one wanted to talk about it then.

If Harman really meant, " "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter,..." why did they then reject thousands who did apply?
They did not want people with different values to those of Labour.
Not right wing, not far right and not far left.
Those when identified were rejected, so not open to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:11 AM

Given that we only half to wait two and a half hours, is it sensible to discuss this just now? If the leader is chosen by all three groups (long term members, affiliates and registered) then whether and to what extent the £3-ers contained the more extreme left and right is utterly irrelevant. If Corbyn doesn't win - and that's possible if the first round is not enough on its own - it is irrelevant. It is only if the decision comes down to the £3 group that matters. In the meantime the discussion is not about the leadership but which mud cater said what when, which is a bit boring as we can all read it for ourselves if we care enough.

I suggest people have patience to see what happens at 11:30 BST

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:14 AM

While discussing the possible news this morning with my missus I heard myself say that thanks to Mrs T the unions are not as frightening as the were back in the pre-New Labour days, so a left wing labour leader might get more support from the centre than many expect.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:58 AM

All UK politics in my lifetime have been short term and Party orientated, this game is laughingly referred to as "democracy".

It will take decades for people to understand socialism, most haven't a clue and think it is about "human rights" and likewise myths in a capitalist society.....you see them on this forum.

Socialism in operation, is actually about sacrifice in the common good, to create a stronger society with a healthier outlook towards ecology and economy.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Jim,
Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information

Completely made up and untrue.
I find the fact most interesting and believable.
I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration.
What I objected to was you linking to the BNP web site without any warning of what the link was.
I doubt I am the only person here who would not have chosen to click on it.

You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims

Yes I have.
I have posted a Guardian report where Labour officials say it is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM

Completely made up and untrue.
I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim."
That was not an accusation carried by another paper - it was a statement by the organisation - suggesting it shouldn't be put up was suppression of that confession - interesting indeed.
Warning - what warning do I need to give - it's a headed statement?
You once defended one of the biggest cut'n'pastes by Bobad - five enormous pages of the stuff, taken from the extremist Muslim Watch site, demanding that we disprove anything they said and defending each claim, one by one.
Bobad's links were unheaded and unattributed, yet you continued to defend them when their source was pointed out to you.
"I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration.
Then why have you been condemning it instead of concentration on unsubstantiated accusations that the left has been "infiltrating" the Labour party?
You made the point that other parties should not interfere
"I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party."
The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have, and for that matter, more than the present Labour Leaders have - yet you set out to claim they have "infiltrated" and ignored the Tories doing the same - and you knew about it.
Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness.
Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM

And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM

Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves, what's the point of denying it? Christ, even I might consider it myself!

The few Tories who have joined look on it as a bit of a joke, their votes are not going to make much difference. I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss?
As noted above, membership was open to all on the electoral register.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:49 AM

"Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves,"
As they bloody well should
Following Blair's swinging the party to the extreme right and then involving Britain in a gulf war on the basis of lies and ignoring mass demonstrations, real socialists (not your sort) left the party in droves - it was argued that they should have stayed in and fought, but they decided that The Labour Party no longer represented socialism.
The Labour Party was set up, largely by the Trades Union Movement, to defend workers rights - those principles were betrayed.
It is only right that now there are signs of a leader who just might put the Labour party back on track, they should return to THEIR PARTY /font> and try and pull the country back from what it has been made by a combination of New Labour.
Conservative and Liberal Democratic policies.   
It is not infiltration to try and win back the party from those who have usurped it.
"Hard Left" is a bogeyman phrase invented by the press to smear decent, dedicated people (it is little different from the term "ultra-left", invented by the Stalinists in the fifties) - it doesn't surprise me in the least that you should use it.
"I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss?"
I have no interest in the BNP - I am interested in the fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election.
The Tories did not join it "as a bit of a joke" - it was a deliberate campaign mounted by The Daily Telegraph - please avail yourself of the readily available evidence of this fact.
DAILY TELEGRAPH CAMPAIGN
Wake up Ake - it's all happening!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:40 AM

I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim."

Yes. Shame on you for tricking us into clicking on the BNP ewbsite.
I never advocate suppression of facts.
You could have just told us about it and offered the link if not believed.
I would have believed it at once.

Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact?

I agree with you, but how stupid of Labour to give them the opportunity.

The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have

They both voted for the same candidate, so what difference?!

Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness.

Lying about me again Jim.
I have never expressed a far right view because I have none.
Why do you do it?

Steve,
And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you?

It is common knowledge.
They trawled their canvas records and the internet to see if they had supported other parties or attacked Labour values.
It has been widely reported.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:45 AM

Jim,
he fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election.

This has become another lie you tell about me.
I was happy for you to post the information.
It was of interest and relevant to the discussion.

I condemned you for tricking me and who knows how many others into clicking on the BNP website.

It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM

"It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to."
And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P.
Give it a rest Keith - you've gone and put your foot in it again.
"Lying about me again Jim."
You've been given examples of which sites you've defended
I'd leave it there, if I were you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:31 AM

And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P.

Protecting how?
You could have just told us about it.
I would be perfectly happy for you to tell us anything you ever find out about that unpleasant organisation, and have no objection to being informed about them joining in the infiltration.

JUST DON'T POST LINKS TO BNP WITHOUT WARNING US WHAT THEY ARE!!!!!

I would not choose to link to them on my home computer.
You tricked me into doing just that, and how many others?