BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:53 PM

Can someone make sense of the last post please.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:54 PM

The last post by Keith A of Hertford.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:02 PM

Where can I get a free meal if I wear a Mudcat teeshirt?

Will it stop Jehovas Witnesses calling if I have a red door?

Just wondered

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:16 PM

There's no such thing as a free lunch. And don't worry about Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm a rabid atheist (ask Joe Offer), but our local Jehovah's Witness is a lovely old boy who walks round my garden with me and who I give big bags of apples to. He knows he hasn't got a chance with me, but I always take the Watchtower, promising that I'll read it, which I always do. I'm just as nice to the Christians around here, but, unlike my JW friend, they're all bitter and defensive. What can you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:16 PM

I got one so frustrated with my answers to his questions that whilst scrunching his watchtower he calle me "a ffffff optimist"
BTW he didnt say the "f" word but he really wanted to
I always say "its the thought that counts"

Drunk to police constable " you're an eejit"
Const to drunk "I can book you for calling me an eejit"
Drunk to Const "can you book me for thinking?"
Const "no"
Drunk "then I think you're an eejit"

The old one are the best & thank Christ you're not of them Christians

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:27 PM

I'm an atheist, thank God.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:01 PM

WTF is the connection between wristbands that prove entitlement to champagne and caviar treatment in 5 star hotels and armbands that require asylum seekers to identify themselves as such to be entitled to the means of survival.

I suppose the next step would be people who have just been made redundant (as I was two years ago) to identify themselves as skivers in order to sign on (as I did for 5 months - 3 of them not to get benefits but to get my NI stamp paid ).

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:23 PM

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:00 PM

"No. There are not Jim. "
Yes there ***** are 4* hotels offering 5* All Inclusive holiday" Bed and Breakfast Spa, local trips... Hadrian's Wall, Anne Hathaway's Cottage, Tower/St.Pauls/West End Theatre tickets, Tower of London...... all extra to a night's stopover.
The Hotel we stopped in in Bayswater a few years ago offered trips as far as Stratford on Avon and a swimming pool in the basement.
Weekly holidays taking in Queens or Wimbledonor The Six Nations or the Football Final, or Lords.....   
Are you totally insane - please try not to be more stupid than we already recognise you to be.
"No. The reference was to "All hotels offering 5* All Inclusive" "
As I asked, where - Ulan Bator?
We were talking about Cardiff - you were comparing British hotels.
"There may be to this than meets the eye - the Government has been aware of this for four years."
The authorities were warned about the dangers of pinpointing asylum seekers four years ago
No reference to "persecution"
"Explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy.
A reference to Ake's support for racist attacks by disaffected Brits
No reference to "persecution"
"Yeah - sure it is - we have imagined that Cameron has just described alylum seekers as a "swarm" (insects, maybe) "
Which is exactly what he did
No reference to "persecution
I'm not answerable to anything Steve claims – you accused me – dipstick!
I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that.
Immigration, particularly the numbers of asylum seekers in need of assistance, has become a political issue, and the latter have become perfect election fodder.
Come a dodgy by-election, or another crisis brought on by bankers giving themselves over-generous bonuses, or more MPs claiming expenses for yet more duck-palaces.... what better than our Tess May standing up and saying - "we're going to do something about all those cadgers-cum-security-threats"?
Our democratic press has been laying the anti-immigration ground for the most of my life, May has already announced her intention to clamp down on asylum rights.... knowing where asylum seekers are would guarantee a policy of sending them home a smooth passage - no persecution needed - just send them back where they came from as soon as possible - an election winner if ever there was one.
Ukip hasn't even had to go to the bother of developing a national policy - "hate the foreigners, especially that lot in Brussels" will do very nicely thank you.
Governments who describe themselves as 'democratic' don't 'persecute' - they don't have to - they have the power of the State to keep them warm.
Do not accuse me of suggesting something I have not suggested - you stupidly desperate little turdule.
I repeat what I wrote:
"It is not beyond the realms of possibility that these have been pilot schemes for future identification of all asylum seekers, and, if them, why not all immigrants?"
No persecution - just identifying and tagging to make things easier should it become necessary.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:05 PM

"Can someone make sense of the last post please."
Steve pointed out what I just did
Don't attribute what he said to me.
I know it's hard, but try to keep up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:09 PM

Jim,   your long response to my point is confusing. I haven't claimed anything, apart from my personal circumstances.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:15 PM

Blimey, I'm confused. Am I not the Steve referred to by Jim then? <>boggle

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 11:32 PM

Media affected baboon grunting get your banana, try Jesus instead

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:43 AM

"I suggested that these "unrelated" incidents - armbands, plaques on walls, red doors, may have been a pilot scheme to identify asylum seekers and where they were living - no more than that."[itals added]

.,.,,.

Yay -- 'may have been' indeed. But OTOH they 'may have been' planted by Martians in flying saucers visiting in the stilly watches of the night...

Just coz you're paranoid, as they say, don't mean the buggers ain't out to getcha!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 03:44 AM

MGM... :0)   nice one!!

Jim..."armbands" were wristbands, the difference has already been explained.
The "red plaques" were door numbers, why do you continue to call them "plaques"......does it sound more in keeping with your CT?
The "red doors" were company policy, just as the doors of our council houses were at painted green......of course the Rangers supporters thought that was a conspiracy too!! :0)

I am amazed that you can continue this nonsense.

BTW ""Explaining away the attacks by putting them down to Government policy.
A reference to Ake's support for racist attacks by disaffected Brits"

Could you please explain this slur, I have never supported racist attacks by anyone.   Being against unregulated immigration is not a racist attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:09 AM

"I haven't claimed anything, apart from my personal circumstances."
Sorry Steve (SPB) - I was responding to a different Steve, who wrote:
"I will thank you for not using quotes of mine out of context."
Keith appeared to be thrashing around for examples to justify his crassness, so he attributed something that Steve Shaw said to me.
I intended to compliment you for your concise summing up (got engrossed in my own erudition) - my thoughts exactly.
I've always been a great believer in Angela Davis's, "If they come for you in the morning, they'll come for me in the night".
In this case, if they can force identification on asylum seekers, why not all immigrants, and then, who knows which of us will be subject to producing identification papers, or stop-and-search....
If it can be a daily occurrence for the lads in Brixton, why not for the rest of us?
"But OTOH they 'may have been' planted by Martians in flying saucers visiting in the stilly watches of the night.."
You would say that, wouldn't you, coming from where you do politically Mike - after all - it couldn't happen here - and nobody would dare to try foisting identification papers on all of us, would they!!!
THINKING THE UNWORKABLE
Some people never learn from the past, do they - that's why it keeps coming back to bite us in the bum?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:22 AM

Jim, I did not attribute Steve's quote to you. I gave his name and he claimed it was out of context.

There were enough quotes of you suggesting government was deliberately persecuting these people, as a "pilot scheme" to persecute "all immigrants."

I was not making a comparison between wealthy vacationers and asylum seekers, just pointing out how common such use was.

The thread title compares these wrist bands to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:24 AM

Jim, I did not attribute Steve's quote to you. I gave his name and he claimed it was out of context.

There were enough quotes of you suggesting government was deliberately persecuting these people, as a "pilot scheme" to persecute "all immigrants."

I was not making a comparison between wealthy vacationers and asylum seekers, just pointing out how common such use was.

The thread title compares these wrist bands to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany.

(And if you know of a UK hotel offering "all inclusive" please give details.)

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:25 AM

"im..."armbands" were wristbands, the difference has already been explained."
And responded to - and ignored by you, it seems - but one more time - doesn't take half a brain for a rambling racist thug on the look-out for someone to find a wristband, if he is so intent, but it takes more than that to work out that fact, apparently.
"he "red plaques" were door numbers" which identified that asylum seekers were living there.
"The "red doors" were company policy, just as the doors of our council houses were at painted green"
Which again, identified asylum seekers - the policy was abandoned as being detrimental to their welfare and abandoned by all - but you, it seems.
"I am amazed that you can continue this nonsense."
And I'm amazed you continue this viciousness long after the rest of the world has accepted the detrimental nature of these practices and moved on - no - I lie - I'm not in the least bit amazed!
"I have never supported racist attacks by anyone."
You have empathised with the people who have made those attacks.
We have all been victims of right-wing Government policy at one time or another - most of us don't blame immigrants or dole scroungers who don't want to work for it.
We certainly don't defend the bastards who brought the country to what it has become because of continuing right-wing policies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:30 AM

Paranoia is grist for the media mill.
The result is the chaff you get in Mudcat --- BS = BULLSHIT


Just a thought
Its a pity we don't have smileys / grumpys which could be mandatory in the completion of a post in place of the submit message box

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:46 AM

"You would say that, wouldn't you, coming from where you do politically Mike - after all - it couldn't happen here - and nobody would dare to try foisting identification papers on all of us, would they!!!"
.,,.

WHY 'would' I? Don't follow your reasoning at all.

ID papers? -- so what if? No big deal to one of my generation. We all carried them around with us during WWii & nobody died of it so far as I recall. I've told on here before of the visit of the King & Queen to my N London school to inspect the damage when it got bombed in the Blitz in 1940 (I got months off school -- ill wind, innit eh!?). First thing Their Majesties did on arrival was formally to produce their National Registration Identity Cards for the inspection of the Mayor of Hendon who was ic the proceedings. I've still got my NRIC somewhere. Just a harmless light cardboard souvenir of my early life. It hasn't ever yet burst into flames and burned the house down.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:14 AM

"WHY 'would' I? Don't follow your reasoning at all."
Thatcher supporter - what else would you think Mike - after all, she made the trains run on time, didn't she?
"No big deal to one of my generation"
That's why those who followed Michael Howard dropped it like ma warm turd
I wouldn't trust the people who battered down striking miners, laid Blair Peach's head open on the corner of a wall, or let the killers of Stephen Lawrence go free (and be found "institutionally racist" by their own enquiry).... demand my identity card at a whim
Mrs T was happy to use our Boys in Blue as her private strike -breakers, and was poised to move in the army, (and shortly afterwards describe a mass-murdering dictator as 'her kind of democrat' - that's the reality of my generation, my middle-adulthood, in fact.
The armbands have been compared to the Yellow Stars pretty widely - even by the rightest of the right-wing press - ok with those here, it would seem.
"Its a pity we don't have smileys "
Easier to smile than actually to respond with actual argument.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!😎
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:38 AM

🙈🙊🙉

😫🔫

💩

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM

What else would I think about WHAT, Jim? You've lost me. Our trains ran pretty efficiently after privatisation without her [or Benito's] put-in, at that. If you resent producing an identity document coz the copper who asked might just have been the one who clobbered poor Blair Peach 37 years ago, you are one poor mixed up old pusskat, I'm afraid. & if he asked your name for any reason, would you just make one up? Or refuse to produce your driving licence if involved in any sort of traffic incident? You are getting carried away on one of your rhetorical wottiff·worst-case-scenario flights, you know! They're quite entertaining, so don't stop!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:14 AM

Michael, I would think that the ID Card you once had carried limited information that could be read by anyone. Name, address, national insurance number etc.

I would have though today all information would be encrypted to be read on a scanner this could easily be used to carry information of, for example, previous convictions, politic persuasion, sexual preference, the colour of your bog roll, if your cousins a drag queen etc etc without you or I being able to ascertain what was collated there.

A different kettle of fish entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:29 AM

That's exactly the point I was trying to make yesterday.

There is a big difference between being forced at all times to carry an ID card with tons of data on its strip and carrying a simple means of identifying yourself in circumstances where you may be asked to confirm who you are. I can use the bus for free - as long as I show my bus pass (which has my fizzog beaming from it). When I go to the Eden Project, if I don't want to pay the entry fee I have to show my annual Locals' Pass. If I want a third off my rail fare I have to show my Senior Railcard. It should not be beyond the wit of the powers that be to devise a cheap, simple and discreet way for asylum seekers to show that they are entitled, without stigmatising them into the bargain. Yes a compulsory ID card is an affront to civil liberties. The non-removable wristband is much more akin to that than anything Backwoodsman suggested.

Incidentally, there is no law that obliges you to carry a driving licence or any other form of identification. Long may that remain so.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:05 AM

"What else would I think about WHAT, Jim? "
About the idea that our governments might be prepared to demand we carry identity cards and misuse their access to the information they carry -
You aren't really as obtuse as you are being here, are you?
Politicians are not to be trusted with this information, neither are the forces of "law and order" - recent past events have shown that over and over again.
To date, Thatcher is the nearest we have ever come to a fascist prime minister - based on her own words and actions - did you ever see the photographs of crossed British and Chilean flags at her 'free Pinochet and stop Britain being turned into a police state' rally?
She had the support of big business and the 'great and good' politicians than, just as her counterparts have now.
Way back when I was working for bosses, rather than being self employed, I would have dismissed out-of-hand the idea that we would return to zero-contracts, where I could be laid off without notice - common practice now.
We fought for a living wage - we got a minimum wage - less than is required to keep a family on - and that's constantly under threat.
According to your lot, we're not trusted to have a say in our working life - our Trades Unions have either been bought off or have been neutralised - centuries of struggle to get a voice down the pan.
Community housing privatised = growing homelessness, and not jut among the less well off.   
Divide between rich and poor (I think you described this as "envy "Britain's divided decade: the rich are 64% richer than before the recession, while the poor are 57% poorer" (From the Independent, the resulkt of this on the general well being of Britain is "Growing gap between rich and poor in Britain over two decades means the economy is 9% smaller that it could be" (that from the 'Leftie' Daily Mail).
Your lot are not to be trusted with our identity cards, your police aren't to be trusted not to misuse them, your politicians aren'tt to be trusted with guarding our rights, your banks are not to be trusted with minding our money, hospitals are failing the lesser well off.... a fine mess you've got us all in Stanley.
Stick your armbands, your identity cards and your politicians - and as for your fascist prime ministers.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:15 AM

Very unwise not to, tho. A police officer can ask to see your driver's licence at any time, & does not need to state a reason; I have even had a bored one at 4 in the morning pull me up to do so, "Just as a routine check, sir," as the poor young man was obviously lonely and wanted someone to talk to. And if you should need assistance for any reason -- I once had the misfortune to pass out at a bus-stop for no cause that has ever been explained, and it has never happened again in the 40+ years since -- it helps if you can be identified for hospital admission, looking up in phone book & calling your wife, &c.

Still if you are so secretive you think your precious incognito must be preserved at all times, then I hope it keeps fine 4U!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:25 AM

Don't know quite what you mean by my 'lot', Jim. I haven't got a 'lot'; haven't been a member of a political party since I ceased to be on the committee of the Cambridge City Labour Party in about 1969. Our house was a local Labour Committee Rooms at the 64 election which brought dear old Harold to power! When my acquaintance thru his wife's theatre company that I used to review regularly, Clement Freud, was MP for where I live now in what used to be called the Isle of Ely, I obviously would vote Lib to keep him on as an excellent constituency man. &c &c.

So less from you about any putative 'lot' that you appear to imagine I belong to, if you wouldn't too much mind. I regard is as rude. Even lefties can mind their manners, I should hope!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:06 AM

Mike - you are the one who has expressed support for Thatcher, described a desire for equal opportunity for all as "envy", has defended what is happening as the best on offer and has dismissed argument as 'leftie' without bothering to respond to it.
You even ounted a mini-campaign to find out my politics.
Entitles you to life membership of 'your lot' as far as I'm concerned.
I too have not voted for decades and am hardly likely to now and hold no brief for any particular political philosophy.
I think I recognise what's right and wrong in society today, but that's more to do with my humanist upbringing (with a small "H"), than it has with my politics.
Doesn't stop you from referring to ma as a "leftie" - though I don't condider it "rude"
Drivving licences as far removed from electronic strips containing detailed information from political leanings to which hand you use to wipe your bum - if you don't know this, perhaps it's time you did - Brave New World, and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:21 AM

Michael, I am not so secretive, etc. etc. fer chrissake, I'm one of the most identifiable and trackable people here for a start. Whenever I'm out and about, like most people I have items about my person that would identify me within seconds. That is not the same thing as being forced to carry a card that not only identifies you but which also contains comprehensive information about you, and it's not the same as being forced to wear a non-removable wristband. Why, if I wanted to, I could stroll around Bude all day on a summer's day with nothing but a pair of swimming trunks and no personal possessions on me whatsoever (down, girls). That is exactly how it should be in a free country. The state does not own me and no-one has the right to control me as long as I operate within the law. Whether it's wise is completely beside the point. I have the choice, that's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 08:56 AM

"forced to carry a card that not only identifies you but which also contains comprehensive information about you"

.,,.

Who has suggested any such thing? Why assume that if such a document were required to be carried it would be bound to give such information? Its content, once the wisdom of some form of identification being a useful thing for any citizen to carry had been agreed, would be a matter of debate. Why for crying out loud are you all so paranoid as to what dire secrets of your existence it would inevitably reveal?   But it would make sense if it just showed your name, address, next of kin, blood group...

Jim would, I daresay, claim to be an advocate of freedom of speech -- in his dreams. Why, just have the nerve to suggest that one of his ogres might have had something to be said for them; then wind him up and set him down & listen to him go! I didn't have to 'mount any campaigns' to find out your politics, Jim. I simply pointed out that your statements made them appear to tend more leftwards than otherwise. It was your own incurable paranoia that made you think that meant that I cared a flying piggiturd which stinking bloody party you might belong to. I couldn't give a flying one if you are a member of the Martian Independence From Jupiter Party...

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 09:04 AM

What has all this to do with Jim's theory that they whole shemozzle is being engineered by the govt and the housing services to make it easier for thugs to harass the asylum seekers.
Wristbands v cards is arguable. Door paint on public property is almost always uniform. Number plates on houses are all usually one colour.    Conspiracy theories are not worth discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 09:51 AM

Like when you keep burbling on about "team Musket" for example? You're a laugh a minute, aren't you?

Michael. I am the last person to worry about whatever dire secrets about me might be revealed. If I have any at all, they've been kept secret from me! My point is simply one of principle. I live in this state but I am not beholden to it. As long as I keep the laws that are there to protect my freedoms and the freedoms of everyone else and pay my taxes, I should be free to be as public or as secretive as I please. That excludes random people "in authority" from demanding my ID without good reason, and it excludes obliging me to carry ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 10:46 AM

Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence? Do you think it unnecessary that we should all have our births registered, and have birth certificates issued? Which of the various documents which over the years have become regarded as necessary, so that they are taken for granted [but why should we all have birth certificates?, just ask yourself, if you are to be consistent] would you abolish? And, following on from that, why is it so unthinkable to you that any new ones might ever be added to their number? I frankly do not think you are being right bright about this. To hear you tell it, all the extant ones are OK, but any additions would be a tyrannical assault on the very basis of your civil liberties! And surely you can see that your "without good reason" in your final sentence is an unconscionable begging of the question -- in the true petitio principii sense.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 11:18 AM

"What has all this to do with Jim's theory that they whole shemozzle is being engineered by the govt and the housing services to make it easier for thugs to harass the asylum seekers."
Pleawse4 stop misrepresenting what I said - my offer to your favourite charity still stands if you can show I ever said such a thing.
I said it was possibly a part of a pilot scheme to test identity cards for immigrants - no more.
The thuggery that you are defending (by ignoring, if nothing else) was a natural outcome - not an intention.
Keith's already tried rewriting what I actually said and failed miserably - why not try a little honest debate for a change - your dishonesty only serves to underline the weakness of your argument.
I don't claim to be an advocate for anything Mike - I put a list of rights I once had that have disappeared, you, in your wisdom and attitude to fair play, choose to ignore them.
Your desire to learn my politics became reminiscent of nagging.
"Who has suggested any such thing? "
Well - Michael Howard did actually:
These were his proposals for identity cards
"The introduction of the scheme was much debated, and various degrees of concern about the scheme were expressed by human rights lawyers, activists, security professionals and IT experts, as well as politicians. Many of the concerns focused on the databases underlying the identity cards rather than the cards themselves. The Act specified fifty categories of information that the National Identity Register could hold on each citizen,[1] including up to 10 fingerprints, digitised facial scan and iris scan, current and past UK and overseas places of residence of all residents of the UK throughout their lives and indexes to other Government databases (including National Insurance Number[2]) – which would allow them to be connected. The legislation on this resident register also said that any further information could be added.[3]
The legislation further said that those renewing or applying for passports must be entered on to the NIR. It was expected that this would happen soon after the Identity and Passport Service (IPS), which was formerly the UK Passport Service, started interviewing passport applicants to verify their identity.[4]"
Your rather unpleasant summing up of my character is rather difficult to deal with - it's somewhat like the rest of your gang, who don't actually involve themselves in debate, but make general snideswipes - rather like wrestling fog.
Perhaps if we concentrated on what each other actually said instead of our assumption of each others politics, we might retain the somewhat tenuous respect we have for each other (speaking for myself of course)
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:03 PM

Do not accuse me of not being very bright, Michael, when you are deliberately trying to miss the point. I am talking about, in the spirit of the thread's topic, being obliged to carry documentation around with me. I have no objection to having to HAVE a bus pass, driving licence, railcard, passport, birth certificate, telly licence, Eden Project Locals' Pass, credit card, debit card, Nectar card, MyWaitrose card, or any other card or document. The address book on my iPhone instantly identifies me (my choice). If I want a particular service, such as to get into the Eden Project without having to pay extra, I expect to have to show my entitlement. But none of these items are permanently affixed to my person and I can't be arrested simply for not having them with me. That's how it should be. I may need my birth certificate to get a new passport but I don't have to carry it round with me. I don't have to show my telly licence to any old Tom, Dick, or Harry who knocks on the door asking for it. I want to see a warrant that states that I'm suspected of having an unlicensed telly first, and even then I can't be punished just because I can't find it. I don't even expect to be asked for my driving licence unless a policeman suspects me of committing a driving offence, and even then I have several days to produce it. That's what "with good reason" means, Michael, open to abuse of course, but that's the real world. I'm not going to a holiday venue that tries to force me to wear a wristband. Asylum seekers allowed into this country have a human right to receive food. We do not have the moral right to force them to wear non-removable, stigmatising, humiliating wristbands in order to receive it. They've been humiliated enough as it is. In all of this long, rambling, patient post, Michael, there are only two key words, obliged and non-removable. Try to hang on to them and act a little more bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 12:52 PM

Steve, "Team Musket" is not a conspiracy theory, unless you haven't been paying attention to what the people who post under that username have been saying.

I wonder how you would have dealt with their charges of having a criminal record, vicious personal stuff about your wife's medical treatment, and insults in nearly every post
I have remained cool and reasonable while they vent their hatred on all who dare to hold different views.
I don't believe in personal abuse, as a tactic it always fails in the face of reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 01:51 PM

Are you really going to walk away from you accusation Ake?
Suppose you are - why break the habit of a lifetime?
Confirmation enough for me though
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 03:34 PM

Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence? Do you think it unnecessary that we should all have our births registered, and have birth certificates issued? Which of the various documents which over the years have become regarded as necessary, so that they are taken for granted [but why should we all have birth certificates?, just ask yourself, if you are to be consistent] would you abolish? And, following on from that, why is it so unthinkable to you that any new ones might ever be added to their number? I frankly do not think you are being right bright about this. To hear you tell it, all the extant ones are OK, but any additions would be a tyrannical assault on the very basis of your civil liberties! And surely you can see that your "without good reason" in your final sentence is an unconscionable begging of the question -- in the true petitio principii sense.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 04:28 PM

Jim, The reason I am not responding to you, is that I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism.

As far as I am concerned there was nothing wrong with the colour of the doors, the house number plates, or the wristbands.....these people are seeking asylum, they will be receiving benefits, food, and a newly refurbished house, something our own young people can only dream about.   Try to get a grip on reality, the media sniffed a human rights story and dived in feet first....rather than take them on as they should have done, the housing agencies backed down.

Nothing to do with right and wrong....just the latest example of who controls this country.....the stinking media and the fools who follow them.    and politically motivated people on internet forums of course :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:02 PM

I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism.

.....these people are seeking asylum, they will be receiving benefits, food, and a newly refurbished house, something our own young people can only dream about.

There's clearly quite a lot that you don't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:20 PM

What is wrong with "these people" in reference to asylum seekers or any other particular group of human beings?

Do you seriously think that is racial prejudice?
If so, you're as daft as Jim.
Why don't "you people" grow up?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:55 PM

It would seem that there are some who are so desperate to flaunt their perceived moral superiority that they have to create victims in order to ride to their defense. They are well represented here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 06:59 PM

"Jim, The reason I am not responding to you, is that I just don't understand what you are getting at by accusing me of supporting racism."
Youve had what you said put to you - you don't even res[pond to that.
You have not acknowledged the harm that these armbands, the plaques and the front doors have had on asylum seekers - your response is to appease the attacks made on them - now condemnation of the attacks - don't have to ask what side you are on.
You have deliberately misrepresented what I have said, that is simply lying - which makes you what you are.
How would it be if I asked you if you'd had a visit from the R.S.P.C.A. lately?
Wouldn't do that because that would be lowering myself to your level.
Are you still contemplating becoming a Christian - just wondered?
"Out of interest, Steve: what about your tv licence? your driving licence"
Still comparing apples with artichokes Mike - you know as well as we do that they don't bear comparison (you've had the identity card wish-list), yet you stay as silent as Ake.
Another dinner party where the spoon is too short.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 07:30 PM

Do you seriously think that is racial prejudice?

Yes I do think it is. And I am not daft, neither is Jim, I'm already an adult, and less than six hours ago you told us that you don't believe in personal abuse, as a tactic it always fails in the face of reason. You appear to have a short memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Aggiornamento
Date: 08 Feb 16 - 11:29 PM

Yellow Stars (Jude) and arm-bands (Mussulmen) both indicate the individuals respect for what is sacred. They do compare.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:33 AM

The mention of TV licences reminds me of an incident many years ago. There was a knock on my door, the chap said according to our records you don't have a TV licence. Your records are correct says I. Why don't you have one says he. I don't need one, I don't have a television. He asked if he could come in my house and have a look. He was told to bugger off. He said I think you have a television. Why says I, because you have an aerial. Hmmmmmm I whipped up my polo shirt and said I've got nipples but I don't bloody use them. The look on his face was well worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 07:46 AM

"If so, you're as daft as Jim."
If I'm "daft" it should be relatively easy to disprove what I say - instead you throw stones from afar.
You have the situation as it stands at present, you have the damage done to human beings who already have enough to cope with - instead of name-calling, why not just respond to that directly without telling lies - easy-peasy as that.
The same goes for our somewhat cowardly anonymous guest - why not creep out from under your bridge and give us the benefit of your opinion?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:29 AM

The same goes for our somewhat cowardly anonymous guest

Cuts too close to home, does it Carroll?