Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Is that his transgender name?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Lou Judson
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:47 PM

But it's true. Show me any Beatles lyrics that come anywhere near to Dylan's flowery, obscurantist nonsense. Shallow copies at best."

So, which is the copy of what? That river flows both ways...

Poetry and music do not need to make sense, only to make us feel!

Subject: Lyr Add: FAREWELL ANGELINA ( Bob Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:54 AM

this is nonsense.
Farewell Angelina

Farewell, Angelina, the bells of the crown
Are being stolen by bandits, I must follow the sound
The triangle tingles and the trumpets play slow
Farewell, Angelina, the sky is on fire and I must go.

There's no need for anger, there's no need for blame
There's nothing to prove, everything's still the same
Just a table standing empty by the edge of the sea
Means farewell, Angelina, the sky is trembling, and I must leave.

The jacks and queens have forsaked the courtyard
Fifty-two gypsies, now file past the guards
In the space where the deuce and the ace once ran wild
Farewell, Angelina, the sky is falling, I'll see you in a while.

See the cross-eyed pirates sitting perched in the sun
Shooting tin cans with a sawed-off shotgun
And the neighbours they clap and they cheer with each blast
But farewell, Angelina, the sky's changing colour and I must leave fast.

King Kong, little elves on the rooftops they dance
Valentino-type tangos while the make-up man's hands
Shut the eyes of the dead not to embarrass anyone
But farewell, Angelina, the sky is embarrassed and I must be gone.

The machine guns are roaring, the puppets heave rocks
And fiends nail time bombs to the hands of the clocks
Call me any name you like, I will never deny it
But farewell, Angelina, the sky is erupting, I must go where it's quiet.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:57 AM

You either get it or you don't.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Well that's what I mean. Dylan generates a self-appointed in-crowd who claim to "get it" whereas those of us who love lyrical and communicative art are presumed to be excluded. I call that sort of pretentiousness, which Bob surely didn't intend, a massive downside. I suppose you "get" Warhol's tins of soup too. 😂

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:04 PM

Come on,Explain Farewell Angelina, its gibberish set to a nice tune or what is it?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Fair one bonzo

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:39 PM

In response to GSS I quote from ee cummings:

beware of heartless them
(given the scalpel,they dissect a kiss;
or,sold the reason,they undream a dream)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

Re: Farewell Angelina..great song, great lyrics, no gibberish. Not everything is simple, there are some things we just have to try a little harder to understand or, perhaps just enjoy things for what they are. If you get nothing out of it, perhaps it is not the fault of the write, but the impatience of the reader.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:50 PM

Explain it please,give us your understanding. mean while can we compare arguably Dylans best song masters of war, and universal soldier.
He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls
But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war
Songwriters: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Masters of War
Bob Dylan
Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you sit back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
While the young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
By the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:53 PM

"Rock and roll legend, Bob Dylan, acknowledged in a recent interview that he has perpetuated an elaborate hoax on the public for more than fifty years. 'I can't sing, half of the time I don't even say real words, I just mumble, and my lyrics make no sense.'...

...Dylan, often referred to as a 'poetic genius,' claims he never knew what people were talking about. 'How profound is "don't want to be a bum, you better chew gum. The pump don't work 'cause the vandals stole the handles?" I just made up simple rhymes. Any child could have done what I did.'...

...'Apparently, Lincoln was wrong. You can fool all of the people, all of the time,' Dylan added."

[Rolling Stone]

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

If it has to be "explained" to you there is no point. The point is to take it for what it is. The problem isn't his, its tours.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:13 PM

My goodness, the know-it-all Brit doesn't recognize someone taking the piss! Har, har that's a larf and a harf.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:16 PM

My previous comment directed at Shaw, of course, not HiLo.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:40 PM

Thanks, mrrzy, for the link to the Guardian update. Of course, now the Dylan website has removed the reference to winning the Nobel Prize for Literature.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

Goodbye Angelina-

Farewell Angelina
The bells of the crown
Are being stolen by bandits
I must follow the sound
The triangle tingles




Jester's crown replaced by the Early Warning System on Mormond Hill [being the original lyric from "Farewell to Tarwathie"]?

www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/MormondHill

www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=40025

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:32 PM

There is no PROBLEM, it is pseudish nonsense , you cannot explain what you do not understand, if you do understand this waffle please explain it, what is king kong doing for feck sake in this song, this is just a hoax.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:59 PM

There's nothing to explain, Dick. There's nothing deep going on. There isn't actually the NEED for anything deep to be going on. It's pop music fer chrissake. Let them see deepness where there is none, the poor deluded souls. Is there no limit to the fundamental depth of these people's shallowness?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:07 PM

Good soldier - maybe Mr Dylan was only taking us back to simpler times with The Mighty Kong swatting at aeroplanes with machine guns [the "Ma Deuce" M2 Browning perhaps] then 1964's B52s and Doomsday Clocks.

Brilliant song

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

GSS "...pseudish nonsense ...."
sounds like that to me too
but there are some attempts at explanations here
thread.cfm?threadid=48629

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:21 PM

Well, poetry is often about images. If you don't get that.. fine but if you don't understand it,that does not diminish the imagery of it, it just means you don't get it. To accuse those who do "get" it of shallowness , is well...pompous, or worse. Just my thoughts.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:41 PM

Well, HiLo, it took a clear-headed little boy to reveal to the emperor's sycophants that the great man was actually naked. Your valiant explanation of Dylan's "poetry" is suffering from strain.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:50 PM

Shakespeare's fist might have lost him his head.
Speaking truth to power, a dangerous occupation.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

No Steve! It isn,t suffering from strain at all. I suspect that you have not listened to a lot of Dylan. people who appreciate him are not "sycophants", they just see his lyrics in different way.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:29 PM

If you get nothing out of it, perhaps it is not the fault of the write, but the impatience of the reader.

Or the reader being better read than any Dylan fan, so they know the literary sources he was crudely ripping off (i.e. large chunks of the mid-century Anglophone modernist poetic tradition).

If you've got Ezra Pound, Edith Sitwell, George Barker, Louis MacNeice, Kathleen Raine, Allen Ginsberg and Dylan Thomas to compare him with, the derivativeness of Dylan's stuff is hard to put up with.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

And many more worthies even than those. I often disagree with Dick, but his tactic of bombarding us with Dylan's utter ridiculousness in this thread has been a master stroke. Dick has forced Bob's rather uncritical aficionados to resort to the highly-predictable moan that we non-members of the in-crowd "don't get it." Well, if that's what fifty years of Bob have reduced you to, maybe you should think about studying some real literature instead!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:40 AM

Your list is an interesting one Jack ! Steve , you are doing your specialty again, banging on about things you clearly know. Little about . Say good night to the people Gracie.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:30 AM

Well if you must resort to such desperate slights, who am I to stop you. You are clearly working on the assumption that I'm having a pop at Bob's oeuvre not having experienced any of it. A dangerous assumption, conceivably born of bitterness and insecurity because your hero's work is being questioned and you're not confident that there's no substance in the criticism. A bit like an atheist confronting a God-squadder, eh? That's what having heroes does for you. My hero is Beethoven. Shoot.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:57 AM

You clearly have not read the entire thread. I am a fan of Dylan's work, he is not my hero , he is simply one of many songwriters I admire .if you dislike him or think his work shallow, fine but to suggest that we are all uncritical afficianados or perhaps we are unfamiliar with real literatur is not a dangerous assumption, it is an ill informed and rather pompous one .

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:09 AM

That's just nonsense from start to finish, except where you surmise that I think his work is shallow, though I don't think it all is, not by a long chalk. To me, he's a pop singer who has written some good songs, mostly a very long time ago, a few jewels in a rather large crock of shite. The older I get the less I tend to see things in black and white. I'm sorry you feel so threatened. I'm just not keen to be constantly told that I "don't get it" by Dylan in-crowders who don't share my scepticism, you included, unfortunately. Just biting back ever so gently, that's all.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:13 AM

Grow up for gods sake. People disagree with, get over it,

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:16 AM

Well, three people in this thread, including you, have resorted to the lame, dismal accusation that demurrers "don't get it." You might be amazed to discover just how much art, literature, music and other diverse culture some of us "get." It isn't much of a debate on that level, though, is it? And it would be nice to not be told to "grow up" by someone with that particular bee in his bonnet, frankly. Have another last word then drop it, HiLo.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:35 AM

Shaw brings his rancor to yet another thread.......idiot wind.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:18 AM

Wonder why people spend so much time praising the work of somebody who has admitted it is meaningless crap.
"Shaw brings his rancor to yet another thread"
On second thoughts - no I don't, taking all into consideration
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:26 AM

mean while here in my opinion is a poem of note, adersved winner of the prize
Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests; snug as a gun.

Under my window, a clean rasping sound
When the spade sinks into gravelly ground:
My father, digging. I look down

Till his straining rump among the flowerbeds
Bends low, comes up twenty years away
Stooping in rhythm through potato drills
Where he was digging.

The coarse boot nestled on the lug, the shaft
Against the inside knee was levered firmly.
He rooted out tall tops, buried the bright edge deep
To scatter new potatoes that we picked,
Loving their cool hardness in our hands.

By God, the old man could handle a spade.
Just like his old man.

My grandfather cut more turf in a day
Than any other man on Toner's bog.
Once I carried him milk in a bottle
Corked sloppily with paper. He straightened up
To drink it, then fell to right away
Nicking and slicing neatly, heaving sods
Over his shoulder, going down and down
For the good turf. Digging.

The cold smell of potato mould, the squelch and slap
Of soggy peat, the curt cuts of an edge
Through living roots awaken in my head.
But I've no spade to follow men like them.

Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests.
I'll dig with it.
IN MY OPINION, Bob Dylan has not written anything that compares with this, Seamus Justin Heaney was an Irish poet, playwright, translator and lecturer, and the recipient of the 1995 Nobel Prize in Literature.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

'S all right, Jim. He was just digging for a word that rhymes with his nickname when he came up with "rancor." 😉

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:38 AM

So apparently GSS doesn't "get it" and he wants us all to know that.

Poetry, not songs, or at least not the sort Dick likes, inspire thoughts and feelings in those who hear it. You can't explain what it means, when it means something different to everyone who hears it. They will never get it, then will attempt to make you feel stupid because of their lack of understanding. I won't own someone else's cluelessness, especially when it's because I don't think they really want to understand.

Keb, go into a supermarket of your choice. Ask the first 20 people you meet if they like Dylan. My guess is you'll get mostly "yes" or "no" answers. Then ask them if they like MacColl. You'll probably get a lot of "who!?" responses.

Then fly to Mexico, or Bolivia, or South Korea, and do the same experiment. I know who MacColl is. I like his music. I just don't think it's a valid comparison.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:41 AM

Apparently a Nobel Foundation spokesperson has called Dylan "impolite and arrogant" for not acknowledging the Nobel Prize for Literature.

The odd thing is that, according to the Nobel rules, you cannot actually refuse the prize if you're chosen for it - you become a Laureate whether you like it or not! (If you choose not to make the relevant speech/concert/blah within 6 months of being awarded the Laureate, then you don't get the cash that comes with the the award.)

But you can't refuse the Laureateship. If they say you're a Laureate, then you are one, and nothing in the world can alter that fact. How arrogant of the Nobel Foundation is that?

I note that no-one in the thread has yet queried the point of any awards like the Nobel Prize, the Man Booker Prize, etc. - all a waste of space in my humble opinion. The awarding of a prize doesn't make the object or point of that prize any worse or better for getting it. In Dylan's case, his lyrics are what they are - (I know very little about them and care less) - and will not be a whit different whether he's a prizewinner or not. If you're a fan - enjoy them. If not, you won't be bothered anyway.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:02 PM

President Obama said in a Rolling Stone interview:

Here's what I love about Dylan: He was exactly as you'd expect he would be. He wouldn't come to the rehearsal; usually, all these guys are practicing before the set in the evening. He didn't want to take a picture with me; usually all the talent is dying to take a picture with me and Michelle before the show, but he didn't show up to that. He came in and played "The Times They Are A-Changin'." A beautiful rendition. The guy is so steeped in this stuff that he can just come up with some new arrangement, and the song sounds completely different. Finishes the song, steps off the stage — I'm sitting right in the front row — comes up, shakes my hand, sort of tips his head, gives me just a little grin, and then leaves. And that was it — then he left. That was our only interaction with him. And I thought: That's how you want Bob Dylan, right? You don't want him to be all cheesin' and grinnin' with you. You want him to be a little skeptical about the whole enterprise. So that was a real treat.

My opinion is that once someone starts to do what they do for the awards, they're not who everybody wanted to see. Some awards, maybe most, are hoops that are held up for the "honoree" to jump through. It's like paying somebody in advance for something you want from them, when they may not want to give it. If you're giving somebody something because you expect something from them, it's not an award, it's something else. Something that involves a little bit of domination.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:29 PM

JERI,. Please explain what dylan means in farewell angelina, ballad in plain d and wiggle,
the lonesome death of hattie carroll is a good subject, its clear what he means but it in my opinion not good poetry.
Please enlighten me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:20 PM

Dick, I'm fine with you not understanding it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

"Keb, go into a supermarket of your choice. Ask the first 20 people you meet if they like Dylan. My guess is you'll get mostly "yes" or "no" answers. Then ask them if they like MacColl. You'll probably get a lot of "who!?" responses."
interesting, since when have supermarkets been the places where decisions are made on anything other than what groceries to buy.
logially, Keb, go into a Library of your choice.Ask the the first 20 people you meet if they like white slice bread my guess is youll probably mostly yes or no answers. Then ask them if they like CHIA SEEDS.Youll probably get a lot of "what is that" responses.
Because someone is a well known performer proves nothing, it certainly gives us any insight into Dylans 3 efforts that i have previously mentioned.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

...or to quote myself from above, which you didn't see:

Poetry, not songs, or at least not the sort Dick likes, inspire thoughts and feelings in those who hear it. You can't explain what it means, when it means something different to everyone who hears it. They will never get it, then will attempt to make you feel stupid because of their lack of understanding. I won't own someone else's cluelessness, especially when it's because I don't think they really want to understand.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

should read it certainly does NOT give us any insight into Dylans 3 efforts that i have previously mentioned.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

Dylan is behaving in the same way you'd expect Donald Trump to if he got the Peace Prize.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:50 PM

You're thrashing a dead horse, Dick.

Imagine a situation where there are three parallel committees for the Man Booker Prize for Literature - each committee made up of 5 judges - all simultaneously sitting and discussing the same shortlist. I guess it would be unlikely that all three committees would choose the same winner - or perhaps they would - or perhaps two would choose the same one - or perhaps all three would choose a different winner.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying that none of the judges at a competition has perfect judgement, or indeed any judgement that necessarily matches another's. Furthermore, the relative merits or demerits of any of the offerings are exactly that - relative.

So, as a judge of poetic literature, you find Dylan lacking in merit; others here do not find him lacking in merit. But the explanation of why will never come to a resolution. Just accept that you have your opinion, which is yours to hold - why demand that anyone should try to change it for you.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:07 PM

It's this rather strange concept of "getting it" that I don't get. 😉 It implies some kind of lack. Well in my case (and, whilst not wishing to blow my own trumpet, I don't think I'm an illiterate sort of chap), I've listened to a lot of his stuff, especially in the earlier years when my best mate at school shoved Dylan down my throat somewhat, and came to the conclusion that much of his literary output is somewhat unconnected, rambling and incoherent, too frequently with no real effort to communicate but leaving us with a jumbled mess of words to try to sort out, the literary equivalent of Tracey Emin's unmade bed. That doesn't preclude the possibility that there might be some merit in some of it, but what he does isn't what artists do. Perhaps "not getting it" means not having the patience to engage with someone who doesn't seem to be that bothered about anyone else, who puts little value on the concept of transaction.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

My first line should have said "not getting it."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:25 PM

Exactly, Steve. You and I did o level English lit, We were taught to analyse and understand what Authors of literature were trying to tell us. No teacher of any merit would just say you just do not get it.
no, one on this forum, has yet tried to explain What Dylan is trying to tell us in the 3 examples I have previously quoted, its not unreasonable to assume they do not understand it either you just dont get it, is a cop out

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

Words come from the heart - does any man know your heart?