BS: Our Apology

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:46 PM

"Make America hate again"
Well he has certainly made America grrrrate again, they are on fire. (all puns intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:40 PM

"The problem of course is the "liberal elite","
One minute you're denigrating Liberalism, then you're praising it, now you are back to denigrating it.
Make up your mind laddie.
The problem is, of course, that scumbags like Trump are able to appeal to the basic instincts of the mob and play on their Xenobia and fear.
It happened with Brexit - now it's happened in the U.S.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:29 PM

The problem of course is the "liberal elite",

No, Ake the problem is two fold:

1. You haven't the faintest idea what your're talking about

2. The working class in the U.S. is in complete denial about who is responsible for putting them in the economic toilet in which they find themselves. (hint: Republicruds and billionaire plutocrats like The Trumpshit)

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:23 PM

The problem of course is the "liberal elite", on her final fling, Mrs Clinton surrounded herself with members of the show business fraterniy. What have these overpaid spoilt children got to say to real families without jobs or prospects.....When times are really hard real people under financial pressure don't want to hear about the social problems of minorities or enhancing their "rights"....THEY WANT TO PUT FOOD IN THE MOUTHS OF THEIR CHILDREN.

The "liberal" fairyland which exists as a sop within the rapacious Corporate Capitalist System has been rejected over much of the "developed world. Mr Trumps election is part of that rejection and part of a huge worldwide movement which will change society.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:20 PM

"Renege on any previous agreements on climate change"

This alone is would be disastrous, and deadly for many in other parts of the world. Trump wants to pull out of the Paris agreement, which is our best chance of mitigating in part for the damage we've caused. Trump wants to re-boot the coal industry and open up onshore and offshore site for the exploitation of hydrocarbons. His ignorance and that of his henchmen and acolytes will prove catastrophic for us all.

This could find us all across the world in deep, deep trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:55 PM

That's right, Joe - make jokes about it. And keep that head stuck in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

One comedian said it very succinctly (paraphrased):

Americans shouldn't feel so bad. In the last few years, countries all over the world have been electing ridiculous leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:05 PM

The article to which "Dave the Gnome" posted a link makes our point extremely well.

While we were quite aware of the 4000 years or so of human history in which some groups hated other groups and, in many cases, acted on their hatred, we naively believed that we were seeing a positive change in human behavior, at least in the U. S. Now it has become abundantly clear that the signs of change were a thin veneer covering our real feelings.

Apparently, human nature is what it is and will continue to be this way for the foreseeable future.

Sadly,

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

Declared 100 day intentions by Trump
Deport illegal Mexicans and build the wall
Abolish Obama's health reforms.
Renege on any previous agreements on climate change
Little wonder that decent Americans right across the country - New York, Washington - San Francisco - have taken to the streets claiming he does not speak for them them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:01 AM

Because I was responding to Jim's 05.33 post, that's why. I know it was rather long, perhaps a bit too much for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: bobad
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:57 AM

I suppose AIPAC and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby are worried because a loose cannon like Trump isn't in their pockets as yet.....

Why do you single this one out among the thousands of other lobbies petitioning for US aid.............oh, wait a second, we know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:10 AM

I would recommend Kevin's link to all. Heavy going at times but highly readable. Far too much to take in all in one go but a lot of things resonate and I am sure that everyone will spot things that appeal to them.

Thanks Kevin.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:35 AM

That a chilling article you linked to there, Dave.

Here,s another which I found through a link in that article which, written in May, was remarkably prescient. And not in any way more cheering. And very relevant also

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:32 AM

Hillary won the popular vote.

We have to fix that damned electoral college - it was put in place to protect the small states that owned slaves and wanted to protect their privilege to continue doing so.

In 2000, the same damned thing happened to Al Gore. Once again, just enough people voted for the spoiler in a couple of those "battleground" states that they tipped the result despite the popular results. Maybe we'll get smart this time and finally stop letting the same few states control the outcome (with their "winner take all" rules, instead of proportional representation).

Ake, you have nothing to gloat about. Hillary Clinton has been under fire for decades by the GOP and their cronies who had an inkling of where she was headed. And they have figured out that if you repeat a lie often enough, people do begin to believe it is the truth. Despite all of your protests of corruption, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT, you're reading the headlines on those magazines in the checkout line. Shame on you for believing that crap.

And for someone in another forum who quibbles about Mrs. Clinton and her relationship to Israel - Trump is welcoming Netanyahu even now, barely a full day after the election, and says he's going to scrap all of the negotiations with Iran. It went from a politician and a statesman who was going to be overseeing this to a loose canon. Let's see how that goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:31 AM

Bee I understand you sentiment however:

The American people did not promote income disparity, second class financial citizenship or collosal war blunders.

I see the American people as very separate fro the 15 GREED INSTITUTIONS.

Historically the conservative movement was the KKK and then the John Birch society.

Apologize for their existence but not for the entire American people who participate in the American experiment of Democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM

Whoops - Sorry, can an elf please correct my faulty HTML flag at the beginning of the quote from the article please?

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

I think we fight it in the way suggested, Stu.

>i>we need to avoid getting lost in arguing through facts and logic, and counter the populist messages of passion and anger with our own similar messages. We need to understand and use social media. We need to harness a different fear. Fear of another World War nearly stopped World War 2, but didn't. We need to avoid our own echo chambers. Trump and Putin supporters don't read the Guardian, so writing there is just reassuring our friends. We need to find a way to bridge from our closed groups to other closed groups, try to cross the ever widening social divides.

I have made a start and am trying to cross bridges on Facebook by attempting to put certain fallacies to rest. It is an uphill struggle, as we see over and over again on here, but if enough people try we may may just make a difference.

Every time you see the soundbites of hate like 'Immigrants are to blame' or 'Muslims are terrorists', put the perfectly valid and opposing view in a polite but passionate way. 'Big business is to blame' and 'Terrorists are criminals' are equally pithy and just as valid.

Stop supporting media that support the hate messages. I cancelled my Sky subscription earlier this year. I fully intend to maintain my boycott of anything to do with the Murdoch empire and most of the other media and urge others to do the same.

Be a pain in the arse on here and elsewhere both on the internet and in real life. Not sure how we go about that. Oh, hang on...

Cheers

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:17 AM

I blame the electorate as much as the process. But I blame Clinton most for not accepting how totally hated she was, and not allowing Bernie a decent chance. He might not have won, anyway, apparently My Fellow Americans are really, really ugly. Well, half of them are. I am so ashamed, embarrassed, and disappointed, I cannot express myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:16 AM

The problem is how the hell do we fight it?

Beats me! As has been said elsewhere you can't cure stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

As Timbaland sang in 2007, "It's too late to apologise...'

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:50 AM

I Find the prospect of Clinton being elected pretty horrendous too, what an awful choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM

Great article, and I would say a fair few people being demonised in the UK and US at the moment have already recognised this situation and the danger it poses to us all; certainly during Brexit and the US campaign we could see the demagogues at work and their borderline fascist rhetoric and right-wing supporters. It's certainly no coincidence that both Farage and Trump are shills for Putin; it's amazing how people aren't bothered by it.

The problem is how the hell do we fight it?

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM

I suppose AIPAC and the rest of the pro-Israel lobby are worried because a loose cannon like Trump isn't in their pockets as yet and isn't as vulnerable as the more establishment politicos to being briefed against. They needn't worry. He hates Moooooslims even more.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:36 AM

Brilliant article here. Well written and very believable. Even our resident detractors should not fail to understand it. Although they probably will...

One bit of good news for our US friends from it anyway - It is not your fault so ne need to apologise. Let us all just make sure we heed the lessons.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:33 AM

"I don't recall a single one of them hailing Trump."
Nope - they could safely rely on us to provide right-wing brain-deads like Ake to do that
Fascinating article in the Israeli article, Haaretz when the result was announced
Jim Carroll

Trump's Win, the Greatest Victory for anti-Semitism in America Since 1941
The Jew haters are celebrating. And Jews – from Jared Kushner to Sheldon Adelson –helped it happen.
Bradley Burston 10.11.2016 12:07 Updated: 12:08 PM
Screen grab of Donald Trump's tweet of an image of Hillary Clinton with the words "Most Corrupt Candidate Ever" on a Star of David-like form. July
Opinion Voting for Trump is a betrayal of Jewish history
Donald Trump shocks the world, elected 45th president of the United States
Shock and horror in Tel Aviv as Trump takes White House
Tuesday's election marked a stunning victory for Donald Trump. And, in the background, something else as well. The election marked the greatest victory and validation for anti-Semitism in America since 1941.
We all saw it coming, those who supported Trump and those who opposed him. We knew it early on. And we couldn't stop it. Because Trump's own people – in particular his closest and most senior Jewish advisors, among them his son-in-law Jared Kushner – let it fester and grow, unfettered, unopposed, unacknowledged. Free.
Read More: Trump's Win, the Greatest Victory for anti-Semitism in America Since 1941 (Bradley Burston) || I Still Love America. But, After Trump's Victory, I Don't Trust It (Peter Beinart) || As a Progressive, How Do I Tell My Children About Donald Trump? (Bradley Burston) || Fear Trumps Hope and Defies Logic (Anshel Pfeffer) || Where does Donald Trump stand on Israel? || Follow LIVE UPDATES here
To the direct benefit of anti-Semites and those who, like Trump, have coddled them and turned a blind eye to them and, in the end, leveraged them to their own advantage, the renaissance of Jew-hate in America has effectively split the Jewish community between an overwhelmingly liberal majority and the pro-Trump minority.
There are now just two kinds of Jews in America. And one of them voted for Trump.
How serious is the split? You can gauge it from the actions and reactions of Trump's senior advisor on relations with Israel, David Friedman, who, interviewed last month on Channel 2, was asked about an Anti-Defamation League Task Force study detailing an enormous and sudden rise in anti-Semitic online attacks on Jewish journalists and journalists believed to be Jews, whose reports were seen as anti-Trump.
"The spike in hate we've seen online this election cycle is extremely troubling and unlike anything we have seen in modern politics," ADL CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt said at the time. "A half century ago, the KKK burned crosses. Today, extremists are burning up Twitter." An ADL statement said: "These aggressors are disproportionately likely to self-identify as Donald Trump supporters, conservatives, or part of the 'alt-right,' a loosely connected group of extremists, some of whom are white supremacists."
Friedman, was asked point blank about the study. Were there anti-Semites actively supporting Trump and harassing his opponents? His answer was a flat no.
Friedman, the president of American Friends of the Bet El settlement, went on to say that Greenblatt was entirely discredited because in the past, the ADL leader had supported the dovish but pro-Israel J Street organization.
He also accused Clinton supporters and advisors of anti-Semitism.
Within the Jewish right, however, Friedman has gone further. In June, he wrote the following in an article on Haaretz columnist Peter Beinart in the settler-based Arutz Sheva website:
"…[A]re J Street supporters really as bad as kapos? The answer, actually, is no. They are far worse than kapos – Jews who turned in their fellow Jews in the Nazi death camps. The kapos faced extraordinary cruelty and who knows what any of us would have done under those circumstances to save a loved one? But J Street? They are just smug advocates of Israel's destruction delivered from the comfort of their secure American sofas – it's hard to imagine anyone worse."
We saw it coming. We should have done more. The memes of Trump gassing Jewish journalists, the photo-shopped images of Jewish journalists interred at an Auschwitz-like "Camp Trump," the use of the term "kike-servative" to describe the many Republican Jews who opposed Trump's candidacy and pointed to the anti-Semitic connection.
We knew that the Trump campaign would do nothing to stop it. We knew it in April, when Jews responded loudly and clearly that Trump's adoption of the slogan "America First" bore offensive and frightening connotations.
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Before it became a winning slogan for Donald Trump, "America First" was a code. On the eve of the worst war the world has ever known, it was Nazi-sympathizer Charles Lindbergh's code for an America which put White Christian Americans of European ancestry before all else. And which pictured Jews – as Trump did just last week by implication – as enemies of America.
We should have done more. We should have known that Jewish organizations who are in the pocket of pro-Trump billionaire Sheldon Adelson, like the Zionist Organization of America – which charges leftists with anti-Semitism nearly daily – would do nothing about this. Jack all.
We should have done more. And now there is going to be more to do. Much more.
We should have been more active in countering the preposterous but widely spread lies about Hillary Clinton being anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.
Trump's kid-gloves coddling of anti-Semites and their vicious works have served him in good stead. Now the haters will be only too happy to return the favor by stepping up their attacks.
On Wednesday, the anniversary of Nazi Germany's murderous Kristallnacht pogroms which pre-figured the Holocaust, Trump's victory gave anti-Semites across America an additional reason to raise a glass in celebration.
Within minutes of the announcement of Trump's victory, former Klan leader David Duke - whom the ADL has called "perhaps America's most well-known racist and anti-Semite" - tweeted, "This is one of the most exciting nights of my life - make no mistake about it, our people have played a HUGE role in electing Trump!"
And we, all of us, the Jews, helped them get there.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM

There's no need for any Mudcat yanks to apologise. I don't recall a single one of them hailing Trump. We started the ball rolling this end by showing that it was perfectly possible to make a catastrophic decision on the back of a pack of lies, impossible promises and a racist, xenophobic campaign. Without brexit to take heart from as a model, I doubt whether Trump would have managed this. It's we Brits who should be apologising, and, unlike you with Trump, we have three or four brainless eejits here on Mudcat who couldn't see what an unmitigated disaster they were advocating in brexit. A couple of them, true to form, are even defending the dangerous buffoon who is about to disgrace the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:50 AM

"As I said on another thread, apologies aught to be directed to your new president elect."
Apologise to a hate filled, racist misogynist thug because he managed to buy himself into the White House you mean?
Jay-sus Ake - are you for real?
The election is summed up beautifully in my paper this morning- under the headline "The United Hates of America" it shows a photo of a woman carrying a banner saying "Make America hate again"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:41 AM

As I said on another thread, apologies aught to be directed to your new president elect.

I agree with most of the remarks above concerning the bigger dangers of another Clinton presidency.
I also agree that the US political system is corrupt and apologies should be issued to the American people and the world before it is dismantled and rebuilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM

Don't worry about it too much folks - Britain has done similar by exiting Europe largely of a racist ticket of getting rid of immigrants and asylum seekers and "making Britain Great again" - the other side of the same coin.
I'm sure the U.S. Mexicans must know how the refugees fleeing from the poverty and warfare in the Third World must be feeling.
Britain has another Iron Lady (this time in velvet gloves} as Prime Minister to back up your..... can't think of a previous leader like Trump - sorry
I suspect that this isn't going to be the last disaster - the world possibly has Mm. Le Penn to cope with in France in the near future.... not to mention the other extremists waiting in the wings throughout Europe
"Happy Days are here again", it would seem
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:16 AM

My take is that the Deplorables struck back with a vengeance. The little people have a vote and used it. WW3 is postponed!

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:12 AM

"Rank outsiders do occasionally win" rank in all senses?

Hopefully he will be a one term President er - could I mention Dubya?

threat would have been greater with Hillary Clinton (pun intended) but she is no loose cannon. Trump is a maverick, and predictions about them are often wide of the mark. A man of straw, just look at his head, what's left of it is sticking out.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:09 AM

From the postings of one of my daughters -

Dear America,
I know we've had our differences. You said some things, I said some things, you spilled my tea, I set fire to your White House.. you know, little quibbles like that.

But things seem pretty rough for you right now and I just want you to know that you're welcome to come back home for a bit. You can sleep on the sofa! I'm your parent and I still love you.

Love, the United Kingdom.
PS: just had a rough break up with Europe so I hope you don't mind if things are a bit of a mess around here.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:51 AM

Well this takes the heat off the UK!

But seriously folks. We are living in interesting times. I repeat my assertion: the problem (a big proportion thereof) is Global Warming/Weirding. The weather has become unpredictable and extremes worse. To the point that you could loose everything tomorrow, even life.
So in that context, the imagined consequences of decisions seem less momentous by comparison. Add in a soupçon of the peace dividend and up pops the enemy within. And greasing the wheels is Farcebook, that well known "Gossip Column".

To the people of the USA, we forgive you, and could you forgive us - our resident buffoon Boris (mop-haired) Johnson has now to eat his words and probably a huge humble pie too and will have to meet your buffoon. But they are survivors against all expectations so they have a lot in common.

We are in no position to judge you, but judgementalism is the fashion now. Not in Rouge Towers though.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:46 AM

He is, so far,an embarrassment in any humane view. But I can only hope, along with Teribus, that the burdens and constraints of the Executive Branch sober him up and cure him of his flaming hyperbolic rhetorical bent, and his penchant for impulsive irresponsibility.

It is a distinct possibility that the myopia which bankrupted so many of his enterprises will also drive the American economy into the ground. Let us pray not.

I concur with the spirit of B&J's apologies, and am prepared to stiffen my upper lip and march ahead as best I can see to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:40 AM

"As if this were not enough, we have unleashed this unstable and ill-equipped personality on the entire world."

Actually Bev and Jeri that remains to be seen and it is not the fault of the American people it is the fault of your political system - Hillary Clinton actually won more votes and any system that allows anybody to stand for election as head of state and chief executive is simply asking for trouble as any betting man will tell you - "Rank outsiders do occasionally win".

The campaigning and all the "in-fighting" and hype can now be done away with. Over the next three months your President-Elect and his "team" will be fully briefed on the realities and responsibilities facing the leadership of a great nation. In short they will be told what can and what cannot be done.

Hopefully he will be a one term President and the next four years will pass. As far as the prospects of future war go? I believe that the threat would have been greater with Hillary Clinton at the helm.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:06 AM

Speaking personally, folks, I accept your apology.

(OK, I've taken MY tongue out of my cheek.)

Remember the ancient Chinese curse.
'May you live in interesting times.'

Subject: BS: Our Apology
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 12:44 AM

To all of our friends living outside of America;

Please accept our most heartfelt apology for what the people of America have done. Words cannot express our remorse.

Throughout our entire adult lives, we sincerely believed that interpersonal relations in this country were improving. Often times, progress was slow and, at times, we fell back but, on the whole, social justice was winning in America.

But, in 2008, Barack Obama was elected president and the deep-seated hatred for the "other" began to surface. Gradually, more and more intolerance began to be expressed against people of other races, religions, national origins and sexual preference. As the drumbeat of bigotry increased in intensity, Donald Trump saw his opportunity and now we have enshrined our mutual distrust and hatred of others in the highest office in the land.

As if this were not enough, we have unleashed this unstable and ill-equipped personality on the entire world. Our actions will have a profound effect on world trade, global warming, social justice and any progress towards world peace and cooperation for decades.

Once again, we deeply regret what our country has done and we humbly beg your forgiveness.

Bev and Jerry