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Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work

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GUEST,Mathew 07 Mar 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Mar 17 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 07 Mar 17 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Mathew 07 Mar 17 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Ebor Fiddler 07 Mar 17 - 07:31 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Mar 17 - 08:01 PM
Jeri 07 Mar 17 - 08:24 PM
Joe Offer 08 Mar 17 - 12:40 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Mar 17 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 17 - 03:04 AM
Joe Offer 08 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 17 - 03:36 AM
Mr Red 08 Mar 17 - 03:42 AM
Jeri 08 Mar 17 - 08:50 AM
oldhippie 08 Mar 17 - 09:05 AM
GUEST 08 Mar 17 - 09:09 AM
Greg F. 08 Mar 17 - 10:38 AM
GUEST 08 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 17 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 08 Mar 17 - 10:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Mar 17 - 12:36 AM
Mr Red 09 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 17 - 08:37 AM
Greg F. 09 Mar 17 - 08:47 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Mar 17 - 08:52 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 09:28 AM
CupOfTea 09 Mar 17 - 09:34 AM
GUEST 09 Mar 17 - 01:01 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 09 Mar 17 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 09 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM
Joe Offer 09 Mar 17 - 04:09 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 17 - 10:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Mar 17 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 10 Mar 17 - 03:16 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Mar 17 - 06:16 PM
Jack Campin 10 Mar 17 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Mar 17 - 12:46 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Mar 17 - 01:21 AM
Mr Red 11 Mar 17 - 03:01 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 17 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Mar 17 - 04:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Mar 17 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Mar 17 - 10:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Mar 17 - 11:30 AM
Jeri 11 Mar 17 - 11:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Mar 17 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 11 Mar 17 - 12:03 PM
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Subject: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 06:45 AM

Protest songs in regards to Donald J. Trump are pointless and should stop.

I feel that this is an important topic which has not been discussed enough.

For those of you in Britain and Canada, when you turn on your TV do you see much mainstream support for Trump? Not really, its constant condemnation of the man.

From the mainstream media I've watched come out of the States, most outlets hate him as well. You can easily find references to hitler, etc.

My point is that a protest song does not seem like a protest song when the majority of people in the spotlight agree with the song.


When Maccoll was railing against Thatcher, he was doing so in a country that was extremely right wing, at the height of the cold war, during a time when the States had a right wing leader as well.

Mainstream media didnt have much to say in support of the bloke.


Let me say at this point that I do not support that yellow monkey, but that is a redundant point almost, as nearly everyone outside of the states (and around half of the people within the states) hates the man.


To my Yank friends down south, bite your lip, oppose him where it makes sense and show up to vote in 2018.


These protest songs about a man most people hate makes no sense to me.


As always I hope you people have a fine day. I apologize for not being able to articulate my thoughts as effectively as usual, I am on the tail end of a midnight shift.

Cheers,

Mathew


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:18 AM

Protest?????
We are simply celebrating our collective abhorrence of one of several backward steps in world affairs.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 11:24 AM

Mathew: "Let me say at this point that I do not support that yellow monkey,...

It is well and good to include language such as this so people may know just what sort of person you really are.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 04:05 PM

Good job at sidetracking the post Phil. You're quite the contrarian aren't you? You must feel mighty clever!


I find it hilarious, I'm a guy who is a bad person for insulting a ridiculous looking power hungry criminal?

I think your priorities are mixed.

I just want the silly protest songs to stop, they are invariably poorly done and cheesy.

The guy is the president. He will probably be one of the worst, but he is still the president.

Stop singing stupid songs that only resonate to yourselves.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 07:31 PM

I agree with Mathew. Funny som=ngs are a completely different kettle of fish however ... Does anybody remember Tom Paxton's song about a certain US President being attacked by a rabbit while he was in a rowing boat? That's the sort of thing we NEED more of, not morally superior "protest" songs. They just don't work today.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:01 PM

" but he is still the president.
Stop singing stupid songs that only resonate to yourselves.
Says more about the poster than the subject, I think
Why should Trump be one of the few tyrants of history not to be the subject of well-deserved hatred?
Poorly done, and cheesy - don't think so, really
Written in a car on the way to a New Year's Party

THE BALLAD OF SHARPEVILLE (1960)
Written by Ewan MacColl

From the Cape to Southwest Africa,
From the Transvaal to the sea,
In farm and village, shanty town,
The Pass Law holds the people down,
The pass of slavery, DOM PASS!
The pass of slavery.

The morning wind blows through the land,
It murmurs in the grass;
And every leaf of every tree
Whispers words of hope to me:
'This day will end the pass, DOM PASS!
This day will end the pass.'

The sun comes up on Sharpeville Town
And drives the night away;
The word is heard in every street:
'Against the Pass Law we will meet,
No-one will work today, DOM PASS!
No-one will work today.'

It was on the twenty-first of March,
The day of Sharpeville's shame;
Hour by hour the crowd did grow,
One voice that cried, 'The pass must go!'
It spoke in freedom's name, DOM PASS!
It spoke in freedom's name.

Outside the police headquarter's fence,
The Sharpeville people stand;
Inside the fence the white men pace,
Drunk with power and pride of race,
Each with a gun in hand, DOM PASS!
Each with a gun in hand.

The Sharpeville crowd wait patiently,
They talk and laugh and sing;
At eleven-fifteen the tanks come down
Roll through the streets of Sharpeville town
To join the armoured ring, DOM PASS!
To join the armoured ring.

Neighbour talks to neighbour
And the kids play all around,
Until, without a warning word,
The sound of rifle fire is heard
And men fall to the ground, DOM PASS!
And men fall to the ground.

The panic-stricken people run
To flee the wild attack;
The police re-load and fire again
At running women, children, men,
And shoot them in the back, DOM PASS!
And shoot them in the back.

Sixty-seven Africans
Lay dead there on the ground;
Apartheid's harvest for a day,
Three times their number wounded lay,
Their blood stained all around, DOM PASS!
Their blood stained all around.

There's blood on the men who fired the guns,
On the men who made the laws;
There's blood on the hands of the Whitehall ranks
Who gave the thugs their guns and tanks,
Who help in oppression's cause, DOM PASS!
Who help in oppression's cause.


Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:24 PM

I don't think protest songs are meant to change minds, and don't really have a chance of doing so. They're a rallying cry, a unifying force for those of a similar opinion.

I don't generally enjoy ridicule. Maybe especially when it comes to Trump, because it just plain doesn't take much work.

That said, I don't have a clue what songs Matthew might mean, but all of the rancor is deserved, IMO. If he didn't constantly tweet idiotic statements, he might seem a little bit less like he's asking for it...probably not, though.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 12:40 AM

My friend Hali Hammer is always quick to come up with a protest song, and she does them well. One of her most recent songs is "We Will Rise Together." She writes songs that twang the heart strings, bring people together, and bring hope in the midst of despair.
I'm sure critics can find fault with it, but here's Hali's song:
I'm proud to know her.

I work with the Hispanic community in my area, and they're scared to death. Even though they may have legal status or citizenship themselves, they certainly know and love people who are "undocumented" and feel they are subject to deportation at any moment. They need hope, and they need it now. Songs help - even if they're not Pulitzer Prize material.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 02:54 AM

With you, Joe.


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Subject: ADD: LBJ Looks After Me
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:04 AM

Protest songs of one sort or another have been a part of our Tradition and history for as long as these aspects of our existence have been a matter of interest.
The earliest English songs - in English and Latin, back to the reign of King John (1100 - 1216), are to be found in Thomas Wright's 'The Political Songs of England (from the reign of John to that of Edward II) - (still in print).
They stand separate from the official peons of praise for historical figures - they are, as often as not, 'the voices of the voiceless'.
To denigrate them is to take away that voice and lave only the 'approved versions of history'
Most of them have no effect, but periods of history such as the war in Vietnam, the groundswell opposition to nuclear weapons of the Miner's Strike were captured and immortalised in song, and our knowledge of these events would be far less without the songs that were made.
It is impossible to separate The Civil Rights movement in America from the songs that were made and sung on the marches.
There were literally thousands made in Ireland on the events between Easter--Week, 1916 and Independence, 1922 - and before and following.
Trump has a rightful place in the repertoire as those who came before him

L.B.J. LOOKS AFTER ME (1967)

When Lyndon Johnson became president of the United States, there were those who felt that U.S. politics had reached rock bottom. But then Nixon took office and it seemed as if the unbelievable had happened. When Reagan was elected, we thought 'It can't get worse.' True: Bush was probably a marginal improvement. The graph-line moved noticeably upward with Clinton. Clinton ... hmmmmm. And now, as we move into a millenium that is crucial to both humankind and Mother Earth, we have Rock Bottom, The Unbelievable and The Worst in control of the most powerful nation in the world.
Jim Carroll

LBJ Looks After Me
This world is just a vale of tears and freedom is a snare,
The road is full of pitfalls and man's lot is only care;
In spite of his intentions, a man can go astray
Unless he has a friendly hand to guide him on the way.

Chorus:                 
L.B.J. looks after me,
With Uncle Harold, Georgie Brown and Marshal Ky;
They have got me well protected from the mean and disaffected,
They're my buddies, and they're looking after me.

Thought is a delusion, it's injurious to health,
A barrier to peace of mind, an obstacle to wealth;
So when I find I'm thinking, to myself I firmly say:
ÔUncle Harold would not like it, nor would L.B.J.'
(chorus)

There's malcontents who say the Labour Party is a farce;
They say George Brown has got his nose stuck right up Lyndon's what-you-call-it ...
But Georgie likes his Kennomeat and Lyndon pays the fee
And what's good enough for Georgie Brown is good enough for me.
(chorus)

There's rumours that the Isle of Man's the latest candidate
For independent status - yes, they want a Manx Free State!
But I don't let it worry me nor spoil my pleasant dreams,
If things get out of hand they'll send United States marines.
(chorus)

This country isn't what it was, the place has gone to pot,
It's full of Pakistanis and West Indians, the lot!
They'd violate your mothers and your sisters they'd betray,
The only thing that stops them is the thought of L.B.J. (chorus)

While cowards flinch and traitors sneer at Uncle Harold's freeze,
They're only trying to drag our dear old country to its knees;
And B.M.C. shop stewards who dare to start a row
Are only secret agents in the pay of Chairman Mao.
(chorus)

Lyndon cannot bear to hear young children cry for bread,
This tender-hearted President would rather see 'em dead;
And so he has a few more thousand butchered every day:
And Harold's right there by his side explaining it away.
(chorus)

My advice to you is 'Never kick against the pricks';
Thought will overtax your brain and lead to Commie tricks;
But Uncle Harold's double-talk will soothe your fears away
And you'll maybe even be allowed to die for L.B.J.
(chorus)


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM

Protest songs will have little direct effect on their targets, that's true. But protest songs form solidarity in the face of tyranny - and what we're facing in the Trump Administration is tyranny. Trump's chief targets are refugees and other immigrants, and the poor. In uniting people against these scapegoats, he gained control. We have to join in solidarity and prove him wrong, so the Republicans will refer to 2018 as the Election Fiasco of All Time.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:36 AM

Paraphrase of statement made by Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun (1655 – 1716)
"Let who will make the laws of a people if I write their songs".
John Stuart Mill (1867)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:42 AM

Protest songs do work. They have to be well crafted. And "work" has to have some sort of metric. Life ain't binary Pal!

Too many, bad ones etc can be counter productive. May hap we have had enough for now. But the distaste of the man and his politics (yes we can be personal about him, the record demands it) must not fade into apathetic acceptance of a new norm.

If the OP is trying to make the point "he should be allowed to have his head to the point that he becomes a liability to his supporters" - maybe there is a point. But that is a gamble, with higher stakes than constant disapproval.

More parodies please. Humour is far more effective.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 08:50 AM

I'm now wondering why Matt thinks "Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work". Why they won't work specifically against Trump, and what does "effective" means, exactly?

Serious question.

Maybe you're just sick of listening to angry people constantly harp on things that won't change anytime soon. I can understand that. But one of the things that won't change soon is that there are a lot of angry/frustrated/disenfranchised people whose main ways of Doing Something include rallying together and marching, or chanting, or singing.

Regards.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: oldhippie
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 09:05 AM

There have been protest songs against every president, whether he is good or bad. Yes, the humorous ones are usually better. Songwriter creativity is most important, keep the songs coming. The cream will rise to the top, the others will be forgotten in time.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 09:09 AM

I don't generally enjoy ridicule. Maybe especially when it comes to Trump, because it just plain doesn't take much work

Yep Jeri once in a wile I amuse myself for the bin later, eg.

At Russia, this Trump does make eyes
While pretending he really is wise
But he clearly loves Putin
There is no disputin'
He's telling a whole pack of lies.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:38 AM

I work with the Hispanic community in my area, and they're scared to death.

They should be, Joe and the Muslim community is as well. Thanks to Trump and his white supremecist following, they're long overdue for a Kristallnacht of their own.

Can the camps and the ovens be far behind? Are they part of Trump's proposed massive military budget increase?


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM

Some of you have a great gift for over stating things. If any of you really understood the evil of Nazi Germany you would not be making this absurd comparisons. But it does exemplify a problem that some have with reality. I am no fan of Donald Trump but Ovens and camps ...get a grip.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 07:29 PM

"If any of you really understood the evil of Nazi Germany you would not be making this absurd comparisons. "
You mean "it couldn't happen here"
British politicians were dismissing the extermination camps as "lies by whining Yids" until the horror of Auschwitz became unavoidable.
My uncle was among those who liberated one of the camps - he was so unprepared for what he saw that he wasn't able to speak about it for years later.
Give us a break Guest - whoever you are.
As late as the 1960s, a politician and Justice of the Peace in the English Midlands was proposing publicly the "extermination" of Travellers who refused to conform.
What happened in former Yugoslavia should be enough to indicate the threat hasn't gone away.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:05 PM

Mathew: I did not say "bad" did I? Juuuuuust a tad unrealistic perhaps, considering the forum…

Yellow Monkey Man (Hueman, Not Hueman)

I'm a fleabit yellow monkey
And all my friends are flunkies
That's not really true.

I'm a cold New York pizza
I'm a pussy squeezer
Yeah, I fling poo.

But I've been hit and I've been tossed around
By every network in this town
Have you babe?

But I am just a yellow monkey man
And I'm so glad yellow monkey women vote too!

Well I hope the coif's not too messianic
Or the Cab'net too satanic
We just love to hear your blues.

Oh well…

(In loving memory of William Maxwell "The Beav" Aitken, 1st Baron Beaverbrook, PC, ONB and Canadian >cough< journalism.)

Now turn that blasted idiot box off and go outside and play.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 12:36 AM

Look.. let's just admit "Hitler has only got one ball" is the ultimate all time classic iconoclastic anti dictator protest song...

so keep things simple.. stop being so oxbridge footlights word wank play clever dick... 😜


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

I am no fan of Donald Trump but Ovens and camps ...get a grip.

"First they came for the Catholics, and I was not a Catholic".

History repeats itself, it has to - nobody is listening.

Of course Catholics are not on the menu this time around, but is Islam that significantly different?
Ovens? It has all been done before, so yesterday! And the process hasn't reach the fever pitch. And the only way to prevent it so doing is to dilute its sting, is to remind people constantly.

It is what Twitler is doing - turn his weapon back on him. Laugh at him with one hand, and block him with the other. And enjoy the process of mocking the Lump.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:37 AM

I stand by my comments Jim. The example of a lone minor British politician wishing to exterminate travellers does not equate in way to comparing the president of the united states to hitler. As for Yugoslavia, a very different story altogether.
Ttump is a menace, but he is not Hitler, or a minor british politician.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:47 AM

Ttump is a menace, but he is not Hitler,

Not yet, but just give him time.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:50 AM

Lakota.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:52 AM

"I stand by my comments Jim."
I have no doubt you do, unnamed guest
The ethnic cleansing that took place in former Yugoslavia is part of the same agenda, as is what is happening in Israel, or banning certain religions from entering America, or denigrating women to sexual conveniences, or tearing up the constitution or having ann Coulter, a racist Klan sympathiser as a supporter, or banning the press in order to control, or enlisting a foreign power to win elections, or .........
We could all sit on our hands and ignore the fact that it has all happened before with genocidal consequences when the world did not act.
Personally, I prefer to bolt the door while we still have the horse.
Just arrived in my e-mails
LOVE FROM PEGGY SEEGER
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:28 AM

Jim
Just for the record, with you 100%.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: CupOfTea
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:34 AM

That the OP thinks protest songs "won't work" indicates he must have a narrow view of what a protest song "does." First reaction to the thread title was "welp, DT isn't likely to LISTEN to any of this," but that's not the entire point of protest songs, either.

How protest songs have functioned in the past has never been a cause/effect relationship, but as a tool for protesters in a variety of ways.
- for organization
- A general stating of point of view
- A response to a particular person
- A response to a specific attitude
- A response to a specific event
- Suggesting changes to attitudes, policy, platform
- Drawing attention to wrongs
- Illuminating specific parallels with similar events that were disasters.
- a rallying cry
- a way to focus on a particular issue
- a way to give ordered voice to turbulent emotions

I could list ways until next Tuesday, and not cover all the ways protest songs function for those singing them. Ineffective, poorly written songs don't help any movement, but as was noted, they'll not be what carries on. Humor, satire, well written, have always been a more direct way of hitting the target - and with 45, mockery gets through his thin skin where outright rage only encourages him. I also see a difficulty in diffusion of attention, because this administration is taking a shotgun approach to dismantling government, and it's hard to know which direction to look on any given day - EPA? Education? Healthcare? Economics? Corruption? International affairs? It's a full slate of issues!

Seeking out the songwriters with a solid history of effective songs for protest and peace, seeing what they have to bring to the job, this WILL work, but it's going to be skirmish by skirmish, and protest songs are the battle cry of people who are doing far more than singing about injustice. Pete Seeger singing about cleaning up the Hudson, Pat Humphries' song being sung by thousands in China, gospel songs by civil rights marchers... all "worked"

There's a larger picture here, the upswing in active bigotry needs voices saying "this is NOT right." I prefer to sing.

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 01:01 PM

Doesn't take you long to get to Israel, does it Jim ? Oh, and I do hope you are equally outraged by ALL countries who have travel bans on religious and ethnic groups, I sure you, good man that you are.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 01:38 PM

I count 8 topics Jim gave and no special mention of Israel, just part of the list.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 01:52 PM

It is why he put Israel on the list Steve..selective outrage is his specialty.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM

Hispanic Community

This is not an ethnic group. It is political vaporware promoted by the Democratic National Committee. In typical usage:

Joe: "I work with the Hispanic community in my area, and they're scared to death."

Cuban & Puerto Rican Americans scared to death? Trump ain't Hitler, he's Moses.

Rural Mexican-American farmers and field workers are not living in fear. Relief on water rights and big city thievery is in sight.

However, for Mexican and Central Americans that came to the U.S. by other than legal means, worry comes with the paycheck. (A typical restaurant worker might burn through a half dozen stolen Social Security numbers, and I.D. theft victims, per year.) They come by the hundreds of thousands and get deported by only slightly smaller numbers every year. The Obama administration set new records rounding them up.

Donald Trump won, or Clinton lost, the Florida popular vote in large part because Florida's so-called Hispanic Community resents both the dismissive label on the one hand and the unchallenged 'yellow monkey' - 'Hitler' BS on the other. Can't say I blame them.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 04:09 PM

Them's harsh words, Phil. I think if you actually knew some of these Hispanic people, you would perhaps be a little more compassionate.
It doesn't matter who invented the term "Hispanic Community" - the term serves the purpose of describing people in general terms. I suppose Cubans and Puerto Ricans generally have no reason to fear, but refugees from the rest of Latin America have great reason to fear the Trump roundups - no matter if they work in the fields or in the restaurants.

I certainly can't agree with OP Mathew's contention that protest songs are pointless and should stop, but this thread has made for an interesting discussion. So, Mathew, what response do you have for the responses? In what way do you mean that the songs "won't work"? - that they won't convince Trump to change his evil ways? Is there no value in singing protest songs to unify the opposition and give them hope and solidarity?

-Joe-

Here's what Wikipedia says about Hispanic. The Hispanic community in my area of California is primarily Mexican or Central American.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 10:21 AM

Well, I don't think protest songs are pointless, protest singers are often aiming the message at like minded people. I am not American and cannot comment on the immigration problems there , but I do think that Trump gives people cause for concern, to say the least. But I think some of the fear arises from the kind of over the top and irresponsible rhetoric being bandied about. If people insist on comparing the President of the United States, no matter how odious, to Adolph Hitler, that will create fear.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 01:06 PM

What if trump progressed from just tweeting
to writing and publicly performing his own protest songs about all the issues and enemies that bother him...???

..can he play guitar.. or even autoharp...????? 😜


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 03:16 PM

Protest songs will do worse than "not work" if the songwriters be clueless, insult spewing jerks. Fwiw: I don't think y'all hit rock bottom there just yet. You can do a lot worse if you set yourself to it.

Joe: They're not scared because of their ethnicity. It is because of what they've done. Ukrainians & Armenians face the same fears and correct living is the only cure. Neither "Hispanic" nor "Community" at all.

As for who'uns I know and how well: Both major American political parties require a "scarey to death" Mexico to protect somebody from, be they refugee, immigrant or citizen. I am calling that pure BS xenophobic politics.

I defy you or any Mudcatter to tell me Mexico City today does not give Paris, London or New York a run for its money on all accounts.

Americans and Europeans are vacationing in, and retiring permanently to, Mexico on a monthly basis, as I write.

Most Mexican towns and cities are safer and more open than Chicago or Detroit or Oakland. Lower standards of living can be found in regions of Arkansas, West Virginia, &c no problemo.

Recent Mexican plagues; famines; natural disasters &c = 0

Wars = 1 = The Yanks and their drug suppliers. Red or Blue; left or right; Republican or Democrat; U.S. elections change nothing; the worst thing about living in Mexico is U.S. violence exported south.

Deportation is not a 'scared to death sentence.' It is a very real emotional & economic setback in direct proportion to one's investments in the North. For most it's measured in months or years, not decades and much of it spent gaming the appeals process.

And none of the above has anything to do with your opponents being smart enough to see Mudcat songwriters would excuse most anything from Trump if his last name were Castro and his policies did your political & ethnic rivals harm. Hispanic there is; Community there is; Hispanic Community there is not. Happy songwriting.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 06:16 PM

So what exactly is a protest song? I can't explain why exactly, but I'm seriously turned off by polemical, bitter-edged songs that try to hit me between the eyes with a message. Some of my very favourite Irish and Scottish singers are guilty of that. I already agree with them and don't need to be beaten round the head with their urgent notions. This Land Is Your Land is as protest-song as a a protest song can be to me, but there's a stepping back, a sweetness about it that draws me in and makes me listen rather than it sticking up a barrier in front of me which has a sign on it that says I'm going to teach you something, are you listening? Story songs like Pretty Boy Floyd are as protest-song as can be, but the story comes with a message I can take or leave without having been punched in the guts about it first. When I hear a song I want a bit of poetry. Good poetry has a way of cutting through your defences that a finger-wagging polemic can never have. Thanks for listening!


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 09:05 PM

The problem with directing protests against Trump is that Trump is not the problem.

His role is to clown about while his handlers do the real dirty work out of the limelight, like the sheaf of absolutely catastrophic legislation that has been introduced to Congress in the last few days - Trump hasn't had much to say about any of that, and it must have been prepared long in advance, probably before he was even chosen as a candidate.

Reagan was the same. President Bonzo was obviously a buffoon and an idiot. Kissinger, Perle and Nitze weren't. Neither is Bannon.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 12:46 AM

When all that you're ranting about, is just re-run phobias, nobody is going to take anything you have to say seriously...matter of fact, you might as well hold a sign over your heads, saying, "I'm not creative, just another ideologue"....or, "Boring, and proud of it!"
I don't see anyone ranting about the globalist bankers, whose 'presidents nobody gets to vote for...and yet hold all the strings.

Jeez, get a life!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 01:21 AM

Jack Campin: (Referring to idiots) "Neither is Bannon."

Jack has a major clue!

Everybody was praising Trump's speech to the joint session of Congress...even those on 'The Left'......Bannon wrote it....did you know that?. 'The Left' just loves the EU...run out of Brussels...and the populous has nothing to do with their elections....go figure!
Aren't you tired yet, of, others telling you WHAT to think, and how re-act...especially when so much of it is based on unproven allegations, and baseless name-calling???
Maybe you all should write a 'protest song' about 'utter stupidity'....and write it in the first person!....maybe call it 'Hypocrites on Parade'. or 'I'm Not a Puppet, I Just Can't Explain These Strings!'...or "I'm Just Like The People I Hate"...or 'Because They Told me So'....

There, I gave you some ideas....but you might not get them, because it tends to show you HOW to think, instead of WHAT to think!
Jeez, I think I've posted stuff like this before....and you still have no clue, and are stuck on boring reiterations from the flagrantly corrupt 'party central'.

Good luck!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 03:01 AM

Ukrainians & Armenians where are the Russians (gov & people) in that argument? Bias? not even near balanced. It is the sign of motivated reasoning.
Violence begets violence even in defence. So pick yer bogeyman and we can pick holes in the results!

Now tell me, when did Ukrainians poison Putin? (don't click if you are squeemish). Or Mr Litvinenko for that matter?


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Subject: ADD: The Rineen Ambush
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 04:01 AM

It seems a pity that this got mixed up in a political in-fight
There's plenty of room for this elsewhere - too much, some would say.
Phil 'd seems to miss the point about the function of political songs.
They have no single function and they range from such complexities like 'William Brown, which in fact a brilliant analysis of Marx's theory of Surplus Value - to:

Hey, hey, LBJ
How many kids have you killed today?

The inspire, they unify, they turn individual outrage into unified protest.. as political tools, they are indefensible, whether they are passionate rants, or works of genius - and that has been the case for a very long time

When Adam delved and Eve span
Who was then the gentleman?

I wonder if the person who rattled that one off would have thought it was still doing the rounds many centuries later.

Beyond their immediate function, they are invaluable, often unique pieces of social history that otherwise would have been lost to us.
I spent a couple of years not so long ago assembling our collection of West Clare songs for Clare County Library - a lifetime's course in our past.
CARROLL MacKENZIE COLLECTION
You'll find huge chunks of history, long forgotten here - the sinking of The Leon (the what!), The Rineen Ambush, The Land wars and the protest Cattle Drives, the War of Independence, The West Clare Railway....
I didn't know about the 'Buckingham Palace Meeting' (George 5th's attempt to bring peace to the warring Irish factions immediately prior to WW1) until we were given the song 'I Don't Mind If I Do'
The second largest subject covered by these songs were on the Emigrations following The Famine - ranging from sentimental hankie-fillers to wonderful accounts of people who refused to lie down to adversity (see Seven Irishmen, or 'The Sons of Granuale'
One of the finest narrative ballads to be found in Ireland was (apparently solely) preserved by elderly farmer, Tom Lenihan - Farmer Michael Hayes, which tells of a Land Agent (employee of an absentee landlord) who is evicted, shoots his landlord (keeper turned poacher) and goes on a marathon run around the coast of Ireland chased by men with dogs... a true epic based around a real event      
Tom's near neighbour, Nora Cleary, gave us a load of songs and classic ballads - including lost squibs about DeValera's election victory in Clare.
Start condemning these as not good enough aesthetically or "not suitable" and you are confining huge slices of our history and our culture to the dustbin.
'The Voice of the People' sums up what all of these songs are perfectly
Jim Carroll

"THE RINEEN AMBUSH   
Sung by Tom Lenihan.

Come all you gallant Irishmen, come listen for a while,
I'll sing to you the praises of the boys of Erin's Isle,
'Tis an awful, awful ambush, I'll have you to beware,
That happened in Rineen Hill, a spot in County Clare.

Our boys they waited patiently with an eye both sharp and keen,
They waited for these lorries to return to Rineen,
Their scouts at once they sighted them without the least delay,
And signalled to their comrades to get ready and prepare.

Their comrades they got ready without the least delay,
And signalled to the scouts again to let them come their way,
The Black and Tans they came along in lorries as you know,
And met our boys upon the road which gave them every blow.

They fought upon the highway, man to man you know,
With shotguns and revolvers against armoured cars and so,
The Black and Tans put up their hands and the peelers too likewise,
When they saw the determined faces upon our Irish boys.

And now to conclude and finish as I think 'tis nearly time,
And all the gallant Irishmen together should unite,
Together should assemble and gather all you can,
And have another ambush soon to fight the Black and Tans."


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 04:09 AM

An additional quick thought after that long rant
To dismiss songs of protest on the basis of their quality would be to be to confine our protesting on the satate of things to the 'educated and articulate'
God save us all from that particular purgatory!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 10:32 AM

It's an interesting twist that I actually tend to dismiss 'protest songs' which are conceitedly over-written
by the smug self satisfied 'over educated and much too vainly articulate' show off pompous 'intellectuals' ... 🙄

I judge the quality of a 'protest song' by it's simplicity, not it's intellectuality...

Then again it's a difficult balance between direct and simple, and wankily trite...???


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 10:44 AM

Are you alluding to being a 'simpleton'?

GfS


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM

No.. I'm expressing explicitly what I mean.. no more .. no less..

Clarity of thought and communication is a basic tenet I adhere to.. or at least aspire to...

Since the glorious punk rock era when intelligent youth rallied to the call of demystification as opposed to mystification...

Be suspicious of those who need to over complicate...!!!


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 11:30 AM

..as in demystifying the processes of communication to facilitate learning and inclusion...

Which is a noble positive statement.. even if it does include too many big words... 😜


errrrmmmm...


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 11:32 AM

PFR, at some point songs can become more about the writer's cleverness than the purported purpose of the song. The best protest songs are ones people can remember: short, pithy, and probably loud.


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 11:49 AM

Jeri - massive thumbs up to that... 😎

[the thumbs up emoticons I just previewed looked too rubbish & unclear to post... so I stuck with words..]


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Subject: RE: Why Protest Songs Against DJT won't work
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 12:03 PM

I don't know diddly about 'authentic' 'protest' 'folk' or any other tag. I do discography not art. I do know the Yanks fairly well. I can count as far as needs be. I know lefty-folkies are running second place to Hitler lately.

Calling every other voter they met a dupe or Hitlerite insulted, disrespected and dismissed just enough of the American folk to make it work for Trump. Thanks for the encore offer but… pass.

pfr: All that because you had to look up 'coif' - jeez Louise.


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