BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 08:09 AM

The premise being argued Gnome was that had the war started in 1938 your father would not have been able to travel to a defeated Britain and would possibly have been killed.

That is not how it started though was it Teribus? However, I am magninimous enough to accept that this is what you have now changed it to. Nice to see the 'only options open' to 'possibly killed'. There is still no proof that anything that could have happened would have happened and there never will be. Still, changing things to 'possibilities' is a good start.

Thanks

DtG

BTW - Have you given Iains a slap for whinging about changing the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 06:10 AM

Sign of insecurity of the inferior? You did sign yourself off as "Jom" didn't you? That is where I got it from - tell me Jom what is the root cause of your insecurity and sense of inferiority? Would it have anything to do with being the stereotypical whinging scouser?

The "Windsor sprogs" were taking the piss Jom - those photographs have been fully explained before:

"Regarding the Balmoral footage, historians have stressed that Hitler was a much derided figure in Britain in the early 1930s, and that the film appears to show the Queen Mother making fun of the Nazi salute." - you do like to keep dragging up your dearly held myths and misrepresentations don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:52 AM

"he could just as easily been simply waving to the crowds, "
Sure he could, just as his continuing friendship with Herr Hitler could have been just being neighbourly
His fascism is now a part of British History
The ahnds in the air of the Windsor sprogs don't leave much room for re-interpretation
Still "Jom" sill a sign of the insecurity of the inferior
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:21 AM

The premise being argued Gnome was that had the war started in 1938 your father would not have been able to travel to a defeated Britain and would possibly have been killed. That this scenario did not happen was down solely to the fact that Hitler was robbed of his opportunity to go to war in the West by the actions taken by Chamberlain, Daladier and by Mussolini - "arse licking" I think Jom called it, by "a Prime Minister whose name no-one dare mention".

Oh by the way Jom, those pictures of the Duke of Windsor - he could just as easily been simply waving to the crowds, which I see as being more likely as no-one else in any of the groups photographed, who were undoubtedly Nazis are saluting.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:06 AM

Now the coloured paintbox is out from Jimmy it is probably time to move along.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:59 AM

Ah so diversions into hill walks, holidays, wild flowers, recipes and getting pissed with "the good lady wife" are OK but other diversions by others are not.

It's not me complaining Teribus, it is your protégé, Iains. Take it up with him.

As to who created the diversion Gnome:

- The diversion onto the Second World War and Munich was down to Jom (Who if you'll notice just lit the blue touch-paper and retired).
- The diversion onto the First World War was down to "Good Man" Shaw.


So, as I said, it was not me. Thanks.

You have been given the reasons why and you have not been able to counter a single point made.

I have quite plainly and successfully countered the point that the war was started in 1938 and that my Dad was killed before I was conceived.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:49 AM

Didn't retire Terubus - a week-long traditional music school took precedence took precedence over arguing with an arm-in-the-air moron
I introduced nothing here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:44 AM

"The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939 Britain would have been defeated."
No it was not
The premise was that if Hitler had been stopped before Germany was unprepared to go to war, the war might never have happened
The Jackal Pack has skirted around that fact and your misrepresentation has added to the avoidance.
To the flag-waggers, the war was against Germany, when in fact it was against a system of Government that the Establishment had a sneaking respect for and, up to the point where it got out of control, were happy to let have a free hand - some would argue, a natural development of that system.
Our leaders went CAPS in HAND to Nazi Germany - some of them even prepared future generations to DO THE SAME
Those who realised the dangers of the rise of Fascism and went off to fight it in Spain were criminalised as PREMATURE ANTI-FASCISTS and were given a difficult time when they returned home
Even 80 years after the events, when we know fully the HORRORS of FASCISM the Establishment arse-kissers still describe the heroism and foresight of those who thought fascism might be stopped as fighting in "someone else's wars"
Appeasement to fascism, like the poor, is always with us.
The same clowns confine their arguments dealing with the consequences of Britain having done nothing to stop Hitler until it was too late.
Lets's face it, had Hitler not overstepped the mark by climbing the fence and crapping in our garden, he would have been a welcome addition to the Capitalist system - a stable Government with a firm hand to keep the oiks in their place
Members of the Establishment were already forming an ALTERNATIVE GOVERNMENT ready for the day when "Herr Hitler" won his place in history
The hurried, last-ditch preparations for war were as much the consequences of Establishment inaction as they were down to the success and ruthlessness of Nazi leadership and the blood of those who died in the Holocaust is equally shared between them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:10 AM

"this thread had already been diverted ............ I suggest you check the title to see what it should be about and then complain to whoever diverted it in the first place." - Dave the Gnome - 08 Jul 17 - 06:06 PM

Ah so diversions into hill walks, holidays, wild flowers, recipes and getting pissed with "the good lady wife" are OK but other diversions by others are not. Sorry of course I forgot "Some animals are more equal than others".

As to who created the diversion Gnome:

- The diversion onto the Second World War and Munich was down to Jom (Who if you'll notice just lit the blue touch-paper and retired).
- The diversion onto the First World War was down to "Good Man" Shaw.

On the first of those I think it has been successfully argued that had Chamberlain not acted as he did over Czechoslovakia then Britain would have been defeated had there been a war in 1938. You have been given the reasons why and you have not been able to counter a single point made. All claims made and the reasons given were shown to be 100% correct as bourn out in the events of May 1940.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 02:18 AM

Sorry :-(

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:54 PM

Dave, the author also must needs be "eminent". Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:06 PM

Oh, and BTW, this thread had already been diverted into discussing alternative histories. Not by me either. I suggest you check the title to see what it should be about and then complain to whoever diverted it in the first place.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:04 PM

The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939

Absolutely. And that basic premise is wrong. War was not declared before 1939. It therefore follows that everything based on that premise is also flawed. No matter how you wrap it up and no matter how many poor quality insults your limited imaginations can come up with it simply did not happen. That is the fact. All else is irrelevant. Is that so difficult for you to understand? If so, I suggest you get a good quality history book. One written by someone who is still alive and meets the approval of everyone. Buy it from a high street book store and then check what date the second world war began.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

This thread has been diverted by the usual crown muttering nonsense. The basic premise was that had war been declared sooner than 1939 Britain would have been defeated. Teribus has valiantly spelt the whys and wherefore of this umpteen times but the usual crown insist on arguing the toss ad nauseum and throwing up all sorts of irrelevancies.

The RAF is clear about the outcome had war been declared earlier, inferior aircraft, no embryonic radar, no command and control system-defeat pretty much certain.
The Imperial War Museum takes an almost identical stance:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/8-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-battle-of-britain

They seem simple enough concepts to grasp. Those who have the facts and figures and are the experts agree, Why do you have such a problem understanding them? You would argue the sun sets in the morning and rises at night just so you can see your drivelling in print.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:06 PM

I can state with absolute certainty Gnome that had the RAF had to fight the Luftwaffe over the skies of Kent in late 1938/early 1939 with no Chain Home and relying on Gloster Gladiator fighters then the German Luftwaffe would have won. That didn't actually happen, but anybody with any knowledge of the period, combat flying and the performance and capabilities of the aircraft in question would tell you the same as I have done - Great Britain would have lost the Battle of Britain if it had been fought under such conditions. It didn't solely because of what Chamberlain did to secure an agreement in Munich in 1938.

If German armed forces managed to ramp through the defences of three countries fully prepared for war in 1940 in just 46 days, just think how much easier and quicker it would have been for them to do against countries totally unprepared for war in 1938. Outcome never in doubt just the time it would have taken.

No guesswork, no imagination required.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM

Unforeseen circumstances are real time, they do not exist in retrospect

Exactly, Teribus. And if those unforeseen circumstances that you describe had not have occurred then no one can possibly know what else would have arisen. Which is why alt histories are not an exact science.

To try, in retrospect to suggest "unforeseen" circumstances that could have effected the outcome of the German onslaught in the West is ridiculous.

It is indeed. But so is saying that something that did not happen was a certainty.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:40 AM

"but nothing in this life is certain. What you are failing to allow for is unforeseen circumstances. There is nothing wrong with that. None of us can because they are, well, unforeseen."

Unforeseen circumstances are real time, they do not exist in retrospect which is why 20x20 hindsight is so perfect.

The "unforeseen" circumstance in 1938 was that Britain and France with the help of Italy were prepared to negotiate and come to an agreement - It meant sacrificing Czechoslovakia.

Hitler got the tanks he needed to invade and conquer Holland, Belgium and France.

The "unforeseen" circumstance in 1940 was the effectiveness of Great Britain's integrated air defence system which allowed ~700 fighters to effectively deny air superiority to, and defeat, three German "Air Fleets" of 3,500 aircraft.

The "unforeseen" circumstance was the use in the Spring of 1940 of 100 Octane fuel that boosted the performance of both the Spitfire and the Hurricane so that both could successfully take on any German fighter (Using the same fuel in a Gladiator would not have done the same job)

To try, in retrospect to suggest "unforeseen" circumstances that could have effected the outcome of the German onslaught in the West is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:36 AM

I am sure it could well have happened like that Teribus but nothing in this life is certain. What you are failing to allow for is unforeseen circumstances. There is nothing wrong with that. None of us can because they are, well, unforeseen. And the war still did not start in 1938 and my Dad was not killed in Poland. Both due to circumstances not foreseen by the German high command!

Out of interest you may be able to help me map my Dad's journey if you would. Not on this thread though - PM?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:05 AM

Sorry Gnome but you are wrong:

Yes, the possible fate IF the war had started in 1938. All the rest would have played out in 1938/39 exactly as it actually did in 1940 as far as Czechoslovakia, Holland, Belgium and France were concerned. Without Chain Home and the Spitfires and Hurricanes Britain WOULD HAVE lost the Battle of Britain, no if about it, and, after a short period of consolidation Hitler would then have turned East, first invading Poland and then attacking Soviet Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 11:00 AM

Yes, the possible fate IF this had happened and IF that had happened and IF the wind was in the right direction. It is a story, a fable, a fantasy. It never happened. It never will. It is a made up scenario and it is making you look foolish.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:40 AM

You got to be here you clown because your father fled Poland and had a safe haven to run to - i.e. Great Britain in 1939/1940. That safe haven existed BECAUSE Hitler was robbed of the chance of sticking to the optimum plan set out by the German General Staff of having his war in the west in 1938 immediately after taking over Czechoslovakia. Hitler's schedule was delayed by 11 months and the Invasion of Poland was the tripwire that tumbled Europe into a Second World War in 1939.

Now then Gnome had the option of going to France and England not been available - where else would your Dad have fled to? We know they initially went out through Hungary and Romania then by sea to France and on to England. But if the order of countries invaded instead of being Poland, then Holland/Belgium/France had been Czechoslovakia, then Holland/Belgium/France then there would have been no chance at all of your Dad turning up on these shores after the inevitable invasion of Poland AFTER the defeat of France and Britain, would there Gnome? That being the undoubted case, it would leave the following options as to the possible fate of your father:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else (Romania, or Bulgaria) to possibly be killed as the Germans attack Russia

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:02 AM

Apart from that everything I have stated did happen

Including my Dad being shot by either the Germans or the Russians?

8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain (No point) has the following probable avenues open to him:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else either to be killed as the Germans attack Russia

Wow! How did I get here then? Did I imagine meeting him or something?

What are you on? I want some!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:55 AM

What part of the following did you fail to understand Gnome?

"Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938"

Apart from that everything I have stated did happen in a scenario where both France and Britain KNEW FOR CERTAIN that War was inevitable and after they had had 12 to 20 months to prepare for Hitler's onslaught in the West. For Great Britain those 20 months were vital, those 20 months meant the difference between a Great Britain being defenceless and a Great Britain that held vital advantages in defence of the air space that was so essential for the Germans to win in order to defeat Britain and knock her out of the War: "Hitler knows he must break us on this Island or lose the War" - Winston Churchill

Had Hitler got his war in 1938 then Great Britain would have lost the Battle of Britain in late 1938 or early 1939 - no speculation, no imagination required as the tools that proved essential to defeat the vastly numerically superior Luftwaffe would simply not have been in place and combat details relating to encounters between RAF aircraft of the type we would have had to rely on and German fighters in 1939 clearly showed that they wouldn't have stood a chance of defending Britain, as stated no imagination just plain simple FACT.

Czechoslovakia was sacrificed so that formal alliances were made with Poland in the hope of deterring Hitler. War in 1938 would have run in the following order (Which is what the German General Staff WANTED):

1: Invade and occupy the whole of Czechoslovakia in concert with Poland and Hungary.

2: Invade Holland, Belgium and France simultaneously

3: Battle of Britain - No radar, No Spitfires, No Army - Britain would have been defeated and taken out of the war without any need for an invasion

4: Consolidate the gains and prepare for War in the East

5: Invade and take over Poland in concert with the Soviets and with Hungary.

6: Consolidate the gains and prepare to attack Russia before 1944 - No imagination required there either Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 03:08 AM

much fact and fiction..? MIX fact and fiction.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 03:07 AM

Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938

But your whole scenarion starting with the war in 1938 and ending with my Dad being shot is based on something that did not happen. Let me let you in on a bit of secret here. The war did not start until 1939. Your whole story is based on something that did not happen and never will. In other words it is all fantasy.

I must say though I admire how you have learned to much fact and fiction seamlessly. I think you have learned a lot from the Daily Heil.

Fact - with Great Britain a Nazi Puppet State there would be point in your father fleeing to Great Britain

Couple of things wrong with that. Main thing is that it did not happen, Britain did not become a Nazi puppet state did it. It is not a fact at all is it? The other thing is that my Dad did not flee to Britain. He joined the British army in Italy and I have no idea how he ended up in Italy. He did not arrive in Britain until after the war. Still, it shows that your imagination is improving. Glad i can help with that.

:D tG


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:59 PM

Nothing imaginary about it apart from Hitler getting his war in 1938 - Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini prevented that but they only succeeded in delaying the start of the war - But shall we run through them Gnome?

1: Hitler gets his War according to plan in 1938 - Hitler got his war in 1939 - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

2: Czechoslovakia is invaded and taken over in 1938 - This happened although an armed invasion was not required - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

3: Hitler gets his hands on the Czech armaments industry - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

4: Hitler attacks Holland, Belgium and France and defeats them using the same plan as was used on 10th May 1940 (Oddly enough Gnome the same plan as devised by Schlieffen in 1905) - The results most certainly would have been the same most likely within a shorter time scale. - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

5: So in 46 days or less, Hitler is standing on the cliffs of the Pas de Calais looking through the white cliffs of Dover - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

It would be a Fact that had the above happened in 1938 there undoubtedly would have been no radar masts, and no Spitfires.

Without the Spitfire what was known as the "Miracle of Dunkirk" would not have happened, with complete air superiority the German Luftwaffe would have had free rein over the channel and over the beaches. Even as it was the British only expected to lift off 45,000 men at the most - Fact. With no successful evacuation the entire BEF "in the bag" would have ended up as prisoners of war.

By the bye it is also a FACT that under the leadership of Sir John French the far smaller BEF of 1914 engaged and managed to delay German forces that were far superior in numbers and in artillery while still maintaining themselves as a fighting force - something the BEF of 1939/1940 failed to do.

6: Germany through air superiority defeats Britain in the Battle of Britain and having no army, or equipment to defend itself in the event of a German invasion Great Britain is forced to ask for terms.

Without radar and without the Spitfire and Hurricane Squadrons Great Britain WOULD have lost the Battle of Britain - nobody with any knowledge of the period would challenge that statement - so no imagination required here either Gnome.

7: After a short period of consolidation Hitler puts into operation his attack on Russia, to get there of course he must get rid of the minor inconvenience that is Poland. Poland, who were perfectly happy to grab bits of Czechoslovakia, have no allies and are surrounded by enemies Germany, Hungary and Russia. As happened in 1939 Poland is overrun and defeated by Germany, Russia and Hungary in one month and five days - Poland is no more. - This happened - Fact - no imagination required or employed.

8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain - Fact - with Great Britain a Nazi Puppet State there would be point in your father fleeing to Great Britain would there Gnome - no imagination required or employed in working that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

Oh, and why the fuck are you asking me stupid questions about WW1 when I have already said I know naff all about it. I have never argued about any point of fact you or your mucker have put forward in relation to any war. I guess you must be getting tired and over-emotional.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:50 PM

You forgot the fire that wiped out the German hierarchy, the weapons of mass destruction invented by a Belian scientist pissed off about his wife leaving him for Hans Schmidt and the alien invasion.

If you can indulge in imaginary scenarios, so can I. But I have a better imagination. :-)

Now, remind us again in what context you said you did not need to be told anything. Oh, hang on, I'll save you the trouble. It was because you did not need to listen to anyone to let you know that the EU was corrupt and a waste of space. So, on the one hand you berate anyone who has fixed views and is not open to new ideas yet on the other...

I'll let you work out the rest.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:17 PM

"I nor anyone can hope to guess what would have happened to my Dad had the war gone differently" - Gnome

Let's see now Gnome:

1: Hitler gets his War according to plan in 1938
2: Czechoslovakia is invaded and taken over in 1938
3: Hitler gets his hands on the Czech armaments industry
4: Hitler attacks Holland, Belgium and France and defeats them using the same plan as was used on 10th May 1940 (Oddly enough Gnome the same plan as devised by Schlieffen in 1905) - The results most certainly would have been the same most likely within a shorter time scale.
5: So in 46 days or less, Hitler is standing on the cliffs of the Pas de Calais looking through the white cliffs of Dover - only this time there are no radar masts, and no Spitfires. There has also been no "Miracle of Dunkirk" the Germans have the entire BEF "in the bag" ( A fate its 1914 version did not share, under the bumbling and incompetent leadership of Sir John French and Douglas Haig - they managed to keep their BEF fighting against superior odds didn't they Gnome).
6: Germany through air superiority defeats Britain in the Battle of Britain and having no army, or equipment to defend itself in the event of a German invasion Great Britain is forced to ask for terms.
7: After a short period of consolidation Hitler puts into operation his attack on Russia, to get there of course he must get rid of the minor inconvenience that is Poland. Poland, who were perfectly happy to grab bits of Czechoslovakia, have no allies and are surrounded by enemies Germany, Hungary and Russia. As happened in 1939 Poland is overrun and defeated by Germany, Russia and Hungary in one month and five days - Poland is no more.
8: Your Dad Gnome cannot get to Britain (No point) has the following probable avenues open to him:

a) He gets killed by the Germans either in the attack or during the ensuing occupation
b) He gets killed by the Russians in the attack or during their occupation (That was the fate of quite a number of Poles)
c) He survives to work out what would be a fairly short life as slave labour for the Germans.
d) Escapes to somewhere else either to be killed as the Germans attack Russia - but Gnome is born, if ever, elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 02:30 PM

Well Big Al you don't have to go back all that far into the midst of time of this thread to find this in answer to your question about how we got onto WWI = do we Shaw?

Steve Shaw - 03 Jul 17 - 05:59 AM

Jaysus, Teribus. You'll listen to the Spitfire pilots for heir accounts but you won't listen to the tommies in the trenches

We got onto Spitfire pilots, RAF records, etc because our pal Jom was wittering on about Britain licking Hitler's arse (Well Jom by the end of April 1945 Hitler's are had been well and truly kicked and the first step on the road to that happening was taken in September in Munich 1938 - In Dublin in May 1945 good ol' Dev was most concerned about putting signatures in Hitler's book of condolence in the German Embassy)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

Hold on there, Al. The first antisemitism post will be along any minute...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:51 AM

can anyone remember what all this shit about the 1st world war has to do with britain making up its mind in the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:31 AM

but by all means keep chipping in with out of context posts

Just remind of of the context then Teribus.

Going back to my earlier point neither you, I nor anyone can hope to guess what would have happened to my Dad had the war gone differently. You are trying to extrapolate a single result from a vast array of possibilities. It is not possible. And you are changing the subject so watch out for the Wrath of Keith :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 10:04 AM

Ehmmm No Gnome - I didn't have to be told anything by any "professional politician" or media outlet how vote in a general election or referendum - but by all means keep chipping in with out of context posts and I will keep correcting you.

By the way gnome if you do your own investigating it is to discover and evaluate the information you uncover in order to make your own mind up about something.

by the way gnome aren't you pleased that Chamberlain did things the way he did. That gave your Dad somewhere to run to, that meant you were born in a free and democratic society instead of Poland under the Communists. You were allowed to shuffle your little fat self around being a union activist (Or was that one of your other pals, possibly a few of them) to your heart's content - had you tried the same thing in Poland they'd have shot you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:19 AM

I, on the other hand, will examine anything I am told

But, surely, you don't need to be told anything do you? I thought you already knew it all!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 08:00 AM

Not all that good at reasoning or logic are you Raggy. Like your other "usual suspect" pals all you are interested in doing here is argue. This you normally do in your passive-aggressive mode from a position of clueless ignorance.

Tell me Raggy - 81 years after the event one "old soldier" can remember vividly names, exact time, date and location of what must count as being the most traumatic event in his life. The contender for "proving" that summary executions took place could not name his best friend of 18 months who was shot right in front of him? He could not name the time, date or place of this murder by an Officer he must have known and served under for months - I'm sorry Raggy but irrespective of how you look at it that just simply does not add up. It just becomes another unsubstantiated story that provides proof of nothing.

As for "clutching at straws" Raggy, the only person clutching at straws in this discussion Raggy is you:

On the sparse information, which is very vague and general in nature, contained in the article we have a time frame dictated by the 18 months specified on from some point in time from August 1914 and December 1914 when Sydney John Hollis and best mate, "The lad from Cannock", volunteered. You have consistently refused to accept that the period we are talking about details a time when the British Army on the western front were engaged in no offensive operations - which means that nobody was being sent "over the top". Instead you keep putting up information that just does not fit.

Harry Patch can hold any view he likes - he lived through it, fought through it, he earned that right - so did Sydney John Hollis. That does not mean that others, far removed, who were not there, who did not live through it, who have never served in their lives, have any right to take unfounded and unsubstantiated stories and use them, without any sort of investigation to accuse people who are now no longer able to defending themselves of murder - That is just simply not only not right, but totally unjust particularly since the motive for doing so seems to be based on "class".

Difference between me and thee Raggy is that you are ideologically all too prepared to argue for "myths" that fit your idiotic and totally unrepresentative stereotypes ( or those of your "usual suspect" pals) without any sort of critical assessment. I, on the other hand, will examine anything I am told, I will look for substantiation/verification, I will look at the event critically and seek proof. I will base my opinion on fact not fantasy - so far in this discussion you have not been able to refute a single thing I have stated - not one single fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:56 AM

Exactly my point Nigel, you read and you consider what is written.

Some people on here dismiss, out of hand, everything that doesn't fit in with their preconceived ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:46 AM

Do you read books Nigel.
Does the person who writes a history book for example have to experienced personally the events they write about.
The shelves would be much emptier if that was the case.

I read many books.
I do not accept that anything in 'black and white' is actually the truth.
If you have that belief then you are more of a fool than I took you for.
Serious histories will often have bibliographies giving links to first hand accounts if they wish the details to be taken as accurate.

I hope you don't believe that Richard Sharpe was instrumental in British victories in the Peninsular wars (and others)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:37 AM

Do you read books Nigel.

Does the person who writes a history book for example have to experienced personally the events they write about.

The shelves would be much emptier if that was the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:22 AM

You are clutching at straws in order to preserve your stance. You are quite prepared to call a man, a man you never knew, a man who fought in the trenches so you could exercise the freedom, a liar.

Once more, none of us have heard from that man in the trenches.
We have heard from a 'news' agency, who heard it from his son, who heard it from the man in the trenches.

If it is true, we can never be sure.
If it is false (whether in whole, or in part)then we do not know at what point the untruth entered the sequence above.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:54 AM

You are clutching at straws in order to preserve your stance. You are quite prepared to call a man, a man you never knew, a man who fought in the trenches so you could exercise the freedom, a liar.

That says far more about you than it does him. You carry on kowtowing to your officers and gentlemen, it's about all you're fit for.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 05:28 AM

Yes Raggy that's the chap. The chap who also said this:

Shooting to kill

I never knew Bob [Harry's friend and gunner] [Note that Raggy - this interview was recorded 81 years after the events in question - Harry REMEMBERS the names of those he served with who were killed - yet Stan Hollis didn't - "A lad from Cannock"] to use that [Lewis] gun to kill. If he used that gun at all, it was about two feet off the ground and he would wound them in the legs. He wouldn't kill them if he could help it.

[A German soldier] came to me with a rifle and a fixed bayonet. He had no ammunition, otherwise he could have shot us. He came towards us. I had to bring him down. First of all, I shot him in the right shoulder. He dropped the rifle and the bayonet. He came on. His idea, I suppose, was to kick the gun if he could into the mud, so making it useless. But anyway, he came on and for our own safety, I had to bring him down. I couldn't kill him. He was a man I didn't know. I didn't know his language. I couldn't talk to him. I shot him above the ankle, above the knee. He said something to me in German. God knows what it was. But for him the war was over.

He would be picked up by a stretcher bearer. He would have his wounds treated. He would be put into a prisoner-of-war camp. At the end of the war, he would go back to his family. Now, six weeks after that, a fellow countryman of his pulled the lever of the gun that fired the rocket that killed my three mates, and wounded me. If I had met that German soldier after my three mates had been killed, I'd have no trouble at all in killing him. [Which German Soldier do You think Harry Patch was talking about Raggy? - It wasn't the one who fired the rocket - Harry Patch was talking about the man he deliberately wounded.]

Oh and Raggy here is something else Harry Patch said in that interview:

Losing friends [Like Sydney Holis's best friend "The lad from Cannock"]

The night we caught it, we were in the front line and we were going back. We had taken the German front line, the German support line and we were coming back from the German support through the German old front line. We had to cross what was the old No Man's Land. It was crossing there that a rocket burst amongst us. It killed my three mates, it wounded me. We were on open ground.

September 22nd, half-past ten at night. That's when I lost them. That's my Remembrance Day. Armistice Day, you remember the thousands of others who died.

You see Raggy, 81 years after, having never told any of this to a living soul. Harry Patch vividly remembers names, dates, times and location as clear as a bell - do you know why Raggy? Because he is recalling something that he actually experienced, something that actually happened to him and when he brings it to mind I bet just for an instant as the thought comes to him he experiences and feels the pain all over again.

I think Nigel Parsons has it spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM

This would be Harry Patch who was Eighteen years and four months old when he signed up.

The Harry Patch who said:

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Charles Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:48 PM

"Did not go to France until June or July 1917 - Wounded during the Battle of Passchendaele in September 1917."
So what?
The reports were that a day at Passchendaele was eqivelent to a year in real life
Still denigrating the experience of "lying" soldiers who gave their lives in the trenches to support the Generals who stayed behind the lines and sent the wrong ammunition
"Gawd bless the officer class" eh?
You're a real establishment bootlicker - every galley should have one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:22 PM

"If he was just sixteen when he signed up (for your argument between Aug & Dec 1914 it could have been between Aug & Dec 1916 before he saw the front."

Example: Harry Patch - Conscript - called up in the late summer of 1916 - Did not go to France until June or July 1917 - Wounded during the Battle of Passchendaele in September 1917.

Example: Here is what happened to the 24th Division made up of Kitchener's recruits -

The history of 24th Division (Long.Long Trail)

This Division was established in September 1914 as part of Army Order 388 authorising Kitchener's Third New Army, K3. The units of the Division began to assemble in the area of Shoreham. Early days were somewhat chaotic, the new volunteers having very few trained officers and NCOs to command them, no organised billets or equipment. It was March 1915 before makeshift drab uniforms arrived and not untul July before rifles were issued.

The Division moved 19-23 June 1915 to Aldershot for final training. Lord Kitchener inspected the Division at Chobham ranges on 19 August and next day it was the turn of King George V. Orders were received on 19 August to move to France and the first units departed one week later.

Concentration was completed in the area between Etaples and St Pol on 4 September [Raggy over ONE YEAR from when they were formed!!!]. It was sent into action on 26 September.

Joins up in August 1914 with the "lad from Cannock" who reportedly died 18 months after joining up (That is what is states in the article) August 1915 is 12 months later and January 1916 makes 18 months.

Joins up December 1914, December 1915 is 12 months and June 1916 makes 18 months

You are proposing August 1916 or December 1916 which makes 24 months surely if the respective start points are August 1914 and December 1914.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:03 PM

So tell us faunt of all knowledge just how old you had to be to serve at the front. If he was just sixteen when he signed up (for your argument between Aug & Dec 1914 it could have been between Aug & Dec 1916 before he ssaw the front.

During that time he could have become friends with the lad who was killed. I am sure you will verify that friend made in the military are close friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 11:22 AM

By all means Raggy do go on:

The time frame is set by the time Hollis and "the lad from Cannock" had served together. The most likely period according to the massive influx of recruits into the Army as a result of war breaking out WOULD BE anytime from August 1914 to December 1914. Eighteen months on (A detail specifically mentioned in the article) puts the alleged murder of this teenager from Cannock sometime between January 1916 and June 1916 - so as far as the article goes the time frame is both correct and logical.

Your latest:

1: 1/6th Battalion Territorial Force:
Feb 1916 Returned to France and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including; The diversionary attack at Gommecourt.

Part of the initial stages of the Battle of the Somme July 1916 - so too late for the time frame.

2: 8th (Service) Battalion:
During 1915
The Action of Pietre. - September 1915 too early for the time frame defined by the stipulated eighteen month interval between joining up and the alleged incident.
During 1916
The Battle of Albert - July 1916 too late for the time frame; The attacks on High Wood - July 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of Pozieres Ridge - July 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of the Ancre Heights - October 1916 too late for the time frame;
The Battle of the Ancre. - November 1916 too late for the time frame.

3: 9th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers):
29.07.1915 Mobilised for war and landed at Havre and engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
During 1916 The Battle of the Ancre. - This was the first action fought by this unit as part of the 37th Division - November 1916 too late for the time frame.

As I said please do go on - I can keep playing "Whack-a-mole" until the cows come home - the story still has too many holes to be believable.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 09:14 AM

"Lovely to see this article printed. Sydney Hollis was my grandfather and was one of the kindest, gentlest, intelligent people you could ever hope to meet. As a young boy he would sometimes talk about the war to me. he never glorified it, though and would talk about the whole futility of it. I'm proud to be his grandson"

A comment on the article by the soldiers Grandson.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 09:02 AM

But I think you know what I was driving at. I can envisage no reason why a man, presumably at the latter end of his life, would lie to his son about something so serious.

Splitting hairs in this instance is disingenuous and does not add to the discussion in any positive manner.
Hardly splitting hairs I find it very reasonable that a father, wishing to bring home to his son the horrors of war, would pass off as his own a story he had heard.
It is even possible that it is the son that has done this. The whole point of "Urban myths" is that you first hear them retold by someone who has a link to the person they (claim to) have heard it from, but they keep this at only a single remove to make it sound more like a personal experience, or something they have heard first hand from an eye witness. The reason for retaining this at a single remove is that you can then have an excuse for not being able to confirm any additional details. It also means that any embellishments you choose to add will be credited to the earlier, uncheckable, source.
Even the person inventing an Urban Myth will claim that it happened to someone else, and was told to him, to avoid being caught out on missing details.


The whole story may be true in every detail. But that doesn't make it valid as evidence of such an occurrence ever happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:17 AM

That's two posts now that have nothing to do with the thread, Keith, you poor little victim you, and not a word about UK politics. I honestly don't mind, but you know me, I'll remember it. Just can't help noticing, that's all. Let me try to drag you back in, like the lost sheep in the parable. What about the DUP stitch-up, Keith? Is May right to withhold the billion and a bit it would take to remove the public sector pay cap this year and pay the DUP their billion and a bit instead, just to keep her "in power?" Whaddya think, Keith?