BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:56 PM

I note none of those justifying tuition fees have indicated whether they'd be up for tuition fees for sixth formers, and if not, why not. I imagine it would be possible to demonstrate that people who've been in the sixth form tend to get more money in their lives than those who haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:09 PM

I suspect that those who go to school at any level get more money, Kevin. Maybe someone will recommend we get back to good old Victorian values and if we cannot afford to educate our kids we have to send them up chimneys.

:D tG

I suppose I shouldn't joke about it or it just may come about:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:13 PM

absolutely, and don't let them down...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:26 PM

I'm impressed Jim, at you reporting all those firms to HMRC. Or maybe HMRC are doing their job better than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 05:12 PM

"It is the only Jewish State.
Is that the problem?"

No. You simply don't understand. Now turn the bloody record over.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:01 PM

It is the only Jerish state.

So Professor, then it IS a theocracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:09 PM

As with many things, Keith is up shit creek without a paddle on this. I could suggest that we keep it on the six-day war thread. My fault for mentioning it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:09 PM

to be honest. i don't agree with hardly any of this stuff.

education is a right.

when i did my open university degree - it was because i was ambitious. brum education authority that i worked for paid all the fees. i studied stuff directly related to my job.

however when i went to summer school, i met intelligent pensioners who grew up in an era when university entrance was all but denied to working class people.

they were wonderful people and they are the happiest memory of my years of study. they were so motivated.
one guy was an ex miner. Welsh bloke 78 years old. plaid cymru supporter. Gwynn Philips. an extraordinary intellect with much to add to any conversation.

we need to educate our population. we need to produce a population that values education and enlightenment and aspires to it.
not for material advantage.

but , its like kennedy said, we should choose to go the moon because its hard.

the alternatives are clear enough to everyone - -you can see them every day on the jeremy kyle show. a deadbeat lumpenproletariat, addicted to drugs, alcoholics, unfit for work, totally aimless..

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:01 AM

"It is British firms who are hiring under the rate, the British establishment allowing to do it."

Ehmmmm No Jom, the British firm pay the going rate, the foreign gang boss hires "his labour" in their country of origin and pays them a rate that appears to be generous in the country of origin, the contract is signed in the country of origin which makes it legally binding. The labour gang boss then pockets the difference as inflated profit. You see Jom that is the downside of free movement of labour, you cannot enforce the UK minimum wage on cheap labour hired in Bulgaria, Romania, or elsewhere in eastern Europe. So so much for your:

"Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage"

As for your last bit:

"British workers looking for work stand to be the greatest losers following the Brexit fiasco"

Pure supposition on your part, but that probably would be the case if Jeremy Corbyn carries out his unilateral declaration on EU workers rights to remain in the UK prior to Brexit negotiations taking place.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:22 AM

you cannot enforce the UK minimum wage on cheap labour hired in Bulgaria, Romania, or elsewhere in eastern Europe. So so much for your:

"Cheap labour can be dealt with by enforcing a minimum living wage"

No one said it is easy to do, but you certainly can do it. As with any other firm it is bringing action against the firm operating in the UK - in this case the gangmasters or whoever - based on what the workers receive. That the workers are only entitled to a certain amount under their contract does not override the amount they are entitled to by Law.

However, the real difficulty is the 'self employed' category. If these Bulgarians are technically self employed then they do not have the right to a minimum wage. So the solution lies in dealing with the abuses of the self employed classification and that is not only (or even mainly) workers from the EU. As we remember, we had many deaths of Chinese workers harvesting cockles. We also have delivery services and similar exploiting it to effectively deny workers rights like minimum wages, sick pay, holiday and so forth. The problem can be tackled, but it is not very closely connected to free movement to and from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

I note none of those justifying tuition fees have indicated whether they'd be up for tuition fees for sixth formers,

I do not justify tuition fees, but we are broke and it mostly benefits the well off.
Only those who become wealthy and successful repay significant amounts.
Do they need handouts from those who never went to university.
With limited resources, there are more deserving cases.

Also we are producing far more arts degrees than the country needs.
That is a bad investment for scarce capital, and does not even promise a good future for the graduates.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:06 AM

Quite correct Keith, most of these "Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham. The country is awash with talking heads trying to justify their existence.    We need more producers and contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

"Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham."
We are "broke" because those most able to make the greatest contribution to society use their wealth and positions to pay the least - our most influential politicians invariably come from that privileged group and have manipulated our society to serve their own interests rather than the needs of the people as a whole.
The greatest progress in education in my lifetime was when it began to move away from being a conveyor belt producing factory-fodder to a service providing an all-round knowledge which could make of fully sentient human beings
This reactionary garbage is a backwards step into the dark ages, designed to turn us into the automatons we were one regarded as by our "betters".
I am delighted to see that at last it is being challenged by someone who cares and who is being supported by young people who respect that compassion and understanding.
Talk about elite-driven cultural vandalism - you really couldn't make it up!!
This is real-life caricature stuff as spouted by the brandy-swilling colonels sitting in the armchairs of their Gentleman's Clubs pontificating about "these people who don't know their place in society" - the stuff Ealing Comedies were made of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:39 AM

"We need more producers and contributors."
Little point when we no longer have an industrial and productive base to contribute to and are reliant on buying cheap from abroad   
That is what the present system has reduced us to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:45 AM

If the only significant amounts repaid are from those who are "successful and wealthy", get it by taxing them more, and stop loading all those who aren't with burdens of debt.

There might be a few among those "successful and wealthy" who didn't go to university, but by definition they can afford to pay. Not going to university and starting work earlier will have been part of the reason they made it big, so they benefitted just as much as if they'd gone to university.

Going to university should be about developing yourself as a person, not about building a career. Very few of the things I was taught either at university or for that matter school ever proved that important in my work. What my years in the education provided at most was to help make me the person I am, including my ability to learn on the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 05:29 AM

Campaigning to make higher education little more than a training ground for industry is the ultimate in philistinism. If we're "broke and can't afford it," then explain to me why every major political party is tied to a pathetically low top tax rate (not suggesting one for you nineteen for me, but we do seem to have gone to the other extreme), why there is no appetite for clamping down on billionaire tax avoiders/evaders whether they're individuals or companies, why public schools are treated as charities for tax purposes and how we can afford a new railway costing tens of billions that will make it possible for wealthy business people to trim a few minutes off their journeys (which will enable them to spend more time with their accountants in order to work out how to pay even less tax). Etcetera. What kind of a country puts education on the top of its hit-list for cuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:39 AM

Arts and Social Studies degrees are an absolute sham

And how many of them have you studied, ake?

For my part I started a BSc in economics but as I have explained before it was cancelled due to lack of numbers and I didn't heave the heart to go though the entrance procedure for something else. I have however sat though and helped my children going through degrees. One BSc, One BEng and two BAs. I have witnessed the extraordinary amount of effort they have had to put in and stood by them amidst all the laughs, tears, celebrations and depressions. They all passed and have all done well in their own fields although two of them do not yet earn enough to pay off their loans.

Just who the hell are you to say that any degree is a sham? How about trying to educate yourself instead of slagging off those who already have?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM

One problem with high income rates is the people in the high rates are often in a good place to jack up their pay to compensate. It seems to me the two ways to get round that is to levy a sizeable wealth tax, and to impose some kind of maximum on all kinds of income, including the dodges they use by paying themselves in share options and so forth.

Being out of the EU could make it easier to do that kind of stuff, if we could get a government determined to do that - but of course it really needs to be done across the continent to be properly effective, and there'd be more chance of getting that going as members.

What's needed is another general election soon to get rid of this lot - which surely would happen now if people had another chance to vote

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

Mr. McGrath, student loans are mostly paid by the taxpayer already.
They are written off after thirty years.

Guardian 3h ago,
"Student loan debt in the UK has risen to more than £100bn for the first time, underlining the rising costs young people face in order to get a university education."

""As fees increase this number will only go up, as more and more money is lent out each year. There is some cause for concern here, mainly for the government, as it is now widely accepted that the majority of graduates will never pay off their whole student loan debt before it is wiped off 30 years after their graduation.""

"Burnside predicted that over the longer term, student loan debt was likely to double to £200bn in six years."

"Loan repayments in the UK are dependent on graduates' income once they start working, with those earning more than £21,000 a year required to pay. Graduates earning at that level are obliged to repay 9% of what they earn above £21,000. However, after 30 years, any outstanding student debt is written off."
(Sorry. Dave's and my previous posts out of date!)

"Our student finance system removes upfront financial barriers for anyone hoping to study, and students only pay back what they can afford based on their income. There are now record numbers of young people, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds, benefiting from higher education."
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 12:08 PM

Mr. McGrath, student loans are mostly paid by the taxpayer already.

Which would mean that there is absolutely no use in the system of tuition fees and student loans. All it does is to frighten off many people from poorer backgrounds from going to university.

And yet the actual money paid is from taxpayers as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:55 PM

Its not all the time I agree with Keith, but here he is right, and, McGrath, it is people like you and Jim who frighten off people from poorer backgrounds from improving their lives with ridiculous scare stories. Almost as if you would rather the poor stayed poor. Fortunately quite a few of them don't listen, engage with higher education, and achieve more than their parents' generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:28 PM

Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?
I have spoken to quite a few who have been through the further education circus to find only, dead end, poorly paid jobs available.

They have been conned out of their self respect and the chance to contribute according to their ability.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:38 PM

I'm scratching my head here, having read recent exchanges through twice, wondering what Kevin has said that has raised your hackles. I can't see it. Apprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:06 PM

"Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?"
Of course they are not, thanks to the system you support
"it is people like you and Jim who frighten off people from poorer backgrounds from improving their lives with ridiculous scare stories."
These "scare stories" have all been back by links to their origins - press reports and national surveys - from the Tory Telegraph to the Guardian
It is people like you who are denying facts in defence of your system who are telling the porkies
Can't speak about Steve, but coming from the background I do, I don't even need these to know the realities of the situation - family members are faced with it when they wish to educate their children - they chose the wrong bubble apparently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:35 PM

I'd never make heroic claims about my background (my first ten years were spent in a slum with no hot water, a bog in a communal block outside the back door, tin bath on a Saturday night and beetles for company - but me and my brother were dead happy, especially on a summer's evening when we could go down the Irwell and chuck stones at the rats!) but it certainly kept me grounded and sharpened my antennae to recognise self-interested, forked-tongued Tory bastards when I see 'em. I didn't do a gap year but I worked for three months every summer for five years on the parks, and those blokes were the salt of the earth. "Tractor 'arold" deserved an honorary PhD and professorship for his swearing skills (taught me alI I know about the art), but he was such a warm-hearted man. They were paid a pittance but they were proud men, proud of their skills and proud of the public gardens they nurtured, whose qualities are now a distant memory thanks to cuts in local government spending. Set me up good and proper, they did. There was a Labour woman on Any Questions tonight (only caught a bit of it so may have got this wrong) who claimed she'd never knowingly kissed a Tory. I love that. There are no good Tories. There are softly-spoken Tories, reasonable-sounding Tories and people who have you scratching your head as to why they're Tories at all. But all Tories are in it for what they can get and we should never forget that. Otherwise they wouldn't be Tories. Set your antennae!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:37 PM

Sorry, Jim, I went off on one there. But I'm with you every step of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 09:48 PM

I cannot believe that anyone has ever been put off going to universities by calls for an end to student fees, and for a revival of the system of maintenance grants. (Tim Farron was right to see this as a higher priority than an end to tuition fees.)

What does frighten off many people, as it would have frightened me, is the thought at an early age of taking on a massive debt. Even if there is a case for saying it is a rational debt, given the alternative of facing employers who discriminate against non-graduates as a matter of principle, that fear remains. And there is the panicky prospect of failing to succesfully complete a course or failing in final exams, and being stuck with a massive debt for tuition and living expenses and no degree. (And many tens of thousands of students never get those degrees every year.)

And if in reality most of that debt will never be repaid, this policy doesn't even bring extra money into the public purse. The only people who get some benefit from it are wealthy students who would not gave got a grant. They still have the extra burden of tuition fees, but they have access to a loan for living expenses at reasonably favourable terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:33 AM

"
"Are the young shelf stackers and care skivvies that I see in my local town really achieving more than their father's generation?"
Of course they are not, thanks to the system you support"

Jim please explain.....as far as I can see , I am the only person here who does NOT support the system........bloody cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

Ake, trying to interpret two posts, it seems that you are saying that there are young shelf stackers and skivvies in your local town with degrees. If so, why are they still there? There are opportunities, and, at the risk of sounding a bit Tebbitt, they should be following them.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 05:14 AM

Ake does not believe in the mobility of labour, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:55 AM

"I am the only person here who does NOT support the system"
You support Trump - the corrupt leader of capitalism today
You support him to the extent of attempting to censor criticism of him,
You described opposition to him as "sedition" (that's not socialism, that's fascism - placing the state over the interests of the people)
You have spoken up for the dregs of the Capitalist system - Ukip
Your contempt for working people by wishing to turn them back into factory fodder is palpable
You blame the problems of the National Health Service brought about by decades of downgrading and underfunding as doewn to bed-blockers and misuse by patients.
You regard civil rights as, at best, irrelevant and unnecessary, but usually as working people's excuse not to live up to their responsibilities
Now you are the only person here defending the fact that working people have been excluded from higher education by describing essential parts of that education as "a total sham", thereby shifting the blame for the elitist situation of access to higher education from hwre it belongs (the establishment) on to education itself
You support working people as the rope supports the hanging man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:05 AM

Jom certainly doesn't Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 17 Jun 17 - 07:55 AM

Idiotic ideological twaddle Jom - Exactly what I'd expect from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 08:46 AM

you're wrong about arts and social science degrees Ake.
tions.

we need to work out what a good citizen is, and then raise awareness of good citizenship.
we need really deep analytical thought about the way our society functions.

i think it was harold wilson that coined the phrase galloping pragmatism.

isn't this really whats at the root of all this bollocks about brexit. may and johnson have reversed their opinions. people near corbyn seem to think he's for out - but given his young following daren't say it. they make it up and change tack with every change of wind. would you really be surprised if Corbyn came out strongly either way?

its being put forward as something that we, the great uninformed, should discuss.
this is bollocks. there must be a definitive answer as to whether to be in or out - based on our culture, future economic and political policy   and aspirations.
there must be a right or wrong answer, and i don't believe i'd take the word of anyone who answered questions with abuse and regularly demonstrated scorn for his fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 09:09 AM

The honest answer of Remainers who are now for accepting Brexit would be "We believe this is the wrong thing to do, but we and you are stuck with the choice made. There is no way you can undo the harm you have done, or have a second chance. We now just have to make the best of a bad job." But somehow they never say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 01:55 PM

I have, Kevin! Not only that, much as I think it wrong and will set the economy back years, I think that not only can we make the best of it but it has some unexpected positive effects. Such as the destruction of UKIP, the loss of support for the extreme right in Europe and the resurgence of honest and caring politicians here.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:29 PM

Not me McGrath, I think it should be fought. And I am not interested in "making the best of a bad job", I will continue to fight it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:51 PM

"Idiotic ideological twaddle Jom - Exactly what I'd expect from you."
And unquaified denial on behalf of the establishment is what I expect from you
You really are cappdoffer "'m'ludder" aren't you and you run with the "risht" people
Hope you and Ake will be very happy together
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:22 PM

Who is Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Kevin is McGrath of Harlow, David.

I agree with you about fighting it. It's looking a bit like a lost cause, and there is zero appetite for a repeat referendum, but things are going to go very badly for us in the next eighteen months. I suspect that the only decent deal we could get would be shudderingly similar to the deal we already have. Let's hope that the election fiasco has managed to evaporate away most of that silly Tory hubris around a hard brexit. We live in an era of rapid changes, so who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 06:39 PM

But it's never said directly by politicians who backed Remain, but now seeking to implement Brexit - ."We are doing the wrong thing because you ordered us to do it - and you can't change your minds now, even if you wanted to.You made your beds, now you have to lie on it."

When you lose an election you have to accept the result is binding, you may even say you deserved to lose. And you organize for a different verdict next time. And in a democracy there always is a next time.

Accepting the result of a referendum as final may make political sense in some situations - but the suggestion that somehow it is undemocratic who call for, or to provide, a chance to think again, is ridiculous. There was nothing undemocratic in the people of Denmark and Ireland having a chance to change their minds on the issue of joining the EU. The undemocratic thing is to rule out of court another chance to vote on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:44 PM

The referendum was totally skewed in favour of the leavers. Had they lost 52-48 instead of winning, there would almost certainly be another refendum imminent. Voting to change the status quo is easy. Persuading people that what we have is as good as it gets, after forty years of rather stale bureaucracy (I'm the first to admit it) is far harder. A stay vote was always going to be thoroughly reversible. The leave vote is pretty irrevocable, just needing the details to execute it For that reason alone, a referendum based on a simple majority was simply wrong and, as it turned out during the campaign, thoroughly undemocratic. The threshold for such an apocalyptic change should have been stiff. I'd say a two-thirds majority on a minimum 75% turnout. Had the leavers won on that basis there would be no squabble. Not from me, and, I predict, not from David C or Kevin. But just watch the hawks here telling me what rubbish I'm talking. But wouldn't they just love the trade unions to be bound by such rules?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:11 AM

How could in in/out referendum based on the need for a 65% majority ever be described as democratic?

Should either side have won on that basis there would be no "squabbles", there would be a riot!


Game over chaps, time to pull together or we will all live to regret our childish attitude. Our opponents in the echelons of the EU must be rubbing their hands at our disarray.
We are leaving the EU, Mr Corbyn has been opposed to it all his life, he should offer to assist in preparing for the negotiations to try for the best possible deal and use his influence on young voters against the wrecking tactics of the media and ideological myth spinners.
At present I still think we shall have no option other than to walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:20 AM

". But wouldn't they just love the trade unions to be bound by such rules? "

This is unbelievable, don't you realise that the "Unions" are no longer a political force, here or in any other developed country. You are living in a mythical past, the time of mass employment and "organised labour" have long gone. We need to adapt to the future not live in the past in all matters political

If only the "liberal left" were as keen on organisation of social issues they might find a tenantable home.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

he should offer to assist in preparing for the negotiations to try for the best possible deal

But the point is there is no agreement on what the best possible deal looks like. Trade and immigration are a part certainly. But there is much else, which is where the hard, soft, red-white-and-blue, open, closed, business first, jobs first, and - the DUPs preference - 'sensible' come from. As I have said before, what is best for small independent businesses is not necessarily what is best for large national businesses and that can differ again from what is best for international businesses. Sometimes these are all aligned and we can sensibly talk about what is best for business in that situation. But no-one has the faintest idea how to address the cases where they are not aligned.

Then 'what is best for Britain' and what is best for business are not synonyms. Take air quality: Britain is frequently brought to court for failing to meet the EU standards. So we leave and are no longer bound by those standards. Is that 'best for Britain'?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM

I think we are wrong to leave the EU but a second referendum would have it's own issues.

Firstly, it would be political suicide for whoever calls it, particularly if the result was reversed.

Secondly, the first one was so divisive it culminated in the murder of a young woman and a massive rise in hate crimes. A second would be no better.

Finally, I have always been against referendums. The government should do what they are paid for. Dodgy Dave fucked up and could not even face up to his decisions when it became apparent his gamble had not worked.

I really do think we have no choice but to make the best of it and, as I said earlier, it has already had some unexpected benefits.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:03 AM

Sorry Ake, we are regretting it. There is no way things can be made any better, except by reversing or mitigating the brexit process. Without that there can be no "pulling together", our lives have been well and truly stuffed, and you cannot expect us to simply accept that and show goodwill towards those who made that decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:20 AM

There doesn't seem much prospect of another chance, but that's a political decision, based on the claim that it would be undemocratic to have one. But that just doesn't make sense. Central to the notionf democracy is that we always have a right to change our minds, and vote again.

There are regimes where a once and for all choice is set in stone. We call them dictstorships.

When we buy something, we can always change our minds and take it back, so long ss we don't wait too long. It's set in law. If we get married, we can decide it was a mistake and get divorced. If we decide to get divorced there is a decree nisi to give us a chance to change our inds, before tge final decree. If we elect the wrong government there will always be another election. Typically if we toss for something we'll mak it best of three.

And as has been said, if the vote had been the other way there'd have been demands for a secibd vote - Nigel Farage promised this when the thought the vote had gobe against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 12:12 PM

And Kevin once we have left the EU we can always apply to join it at some point in the future. Of course if we did that it would be under vary different terms than the last time. There would be no UK rebate and we would have to ditch the £Sterling and take on the Euro.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM

And it would still be fantastic value. People have no conception of what a good deal we have had, like half price membership of an exclusive club.