BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 11:23 AM

"Yes. And I did not suggest that Dave had ever used the word, so what is your point Rag?"



"No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible"
22 Jun 08.43


That seems pretty clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 01:16 PM

It is clear.
I did not claim those words were used. Nothing is in quotes.
I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 01:24 PM

You can claim whatever you like professor, any rational person can see that you lied.

Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

No rational person would say I have lied.
You are just desperately trying to catch me out, and failing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:09 PM

I'm starting to think that The Professor is the long lost brother of Donald Trump - pretty much the same mentality & other attributes pertain to both.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:48 PM

I quoted you exactly professor. No if's no but's no maybe's


"No. You said that you were ill informed and gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:19 PM

"I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes."

Anyone remember many times Keith said this during his sorry Wheatcroft saga? Keith thinks he can say something once then change it later as much as he likes whilst still claiming that he's "telling the truth." You're well sussed, Keith! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

Professor's just relying on "alternative facts" - a thorough Trumpian.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

Ah yes Shaw of course the "Wheatcroft Saga" where it was you IIRC who were shown quite clearly to be a liar:

SHAW'S WHEATCROFT SAGA

How Steve Shaw "makes up shit" and what an acknowledgement and correction of an error looks like:

On the 10th December, 2014 the following text was faithfully and accurately posted by Keith A of Hertford in a thread titled "WWI was No Mans Land" from an article by Geoffrey Wheatcroft that appeared in the Guardian, 9 Dec 2014

"That series had been preceded in 1963 by AJP Taylor's rather vulgar book, The First World War: An Illustrated History, and Oh, What a Lovely War!, Joan Littlewood's musical pasquinade. The latter, which used the songs the Tommies had sung in the trenches, drew on Alan Clark's 1961 book The Donkeys – a largely fraudulent book, whose title derives from an invented quotation about "lions led by donkeys", that nevertheless made a mark."

This thread was closed on 18th December but the discussion continued on another WWI thread titled "I am not an historian but ..." in which Keith A made a passing reference to the passage quoted above on the 17th December, 2014

The Guardian last week described the work of Clark and Taylor as "fraudulent."

Steve Shaw questioned this and within an hour of Steve Shaw posting Keith A of Hertford replied as follows:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:22 AM

Ok Steve. [The acknowledgement]
The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent." [The correction]

IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED BY:

Subject: RE: BS: I am not an historian but........
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:25 AM

The Guardian printed a piece, by a Guardian correspondent, that described Taylor and Clark's work as "vulgar" and "fraudulent" respectively. [Further correction making clear what adjective applied to which author's work]

After the above acknowledgment and correction had been given in the "I am not an historian but ...." thread the complete passage from Wheatcroft's article was posted five times which when you couple that to the speed of Keith A's response and correction blows the Shaw theory of it being deliberate misrepresentation clear out of the water - and yet Shaw to this day still attempts to convey the idea that no acknowledgement and correction was ever made, which of course is a downright LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

I did not claim those actual words were used. None are in quotes.
I had already quoted the actual words, putting them in quotes.
I did nothing wrong.
Why are these people constantly out to get me?

I am away for a while.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:47 AM

With the fairies, presumably.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:49 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:49 AM

The reason is simple Keith, while Teribus, yourself and a couple of others continue to expose the contradictions in "Left liberal" ideology, you will be a target for cowardly lies and misrepresentation.

If only we could occasionally have a serious and honest discussion here, this place would be more positive and less aggressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 05:58 AM

One out with the fairies and one comedian. And he wants a serious discussion. Blimey, you couldn't make it up. Except that they both do.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 06:36 AM

Its very clear professor, you posted:

"No. You SAID that you were ill informed and gullible"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 10:39 AM

So, anyone want to update me on what has been happening while I have been north of the border then? Save me trawling the acres of crap. I see Nod has now joined in with Winken and Blinken. I have an idea what he will be on about. Keith still making up what I said or meant or both?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 02:09 PM

Save your time, Dave, The thread is doggy paddling in circles.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 04:01 PM

Thanks, Kevin. I will take your advice.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:26 AM

I guess it is not just me being inferior then...

Katarina Barley, leader of the German Social Democrats (SPD), called for a second Brexit referendum this week, arguing British voters were misinformed about the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.

"When the referendum was held, nobody really knew what it would be about – not the British people, not even the political class," Barley said during a TV interview.

"A lot of people incorrectly thought that Britain could get a deal like Switzerland or Norway without the inconveniences, without accepting the rulings of the European Court of Justice, without free movement of labor. Now they know that this isn't the case and they should be asked to vote again on this."

From here. Just in case anyone thinks I am making it up :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:06 AM

Yes well done Gnome, let's be dictated to simply to satisfy the desires of those who voted to Remain and we'll just ignore the majority who voted Leave - that's your form of democracy.

By the way Gnome what punishment and how much should the UK pay for having the temerity to vote to Leave Germany & France's cosy corrupt little club?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:15 AM

Have you not been following this at all, Teribus? I was against the first referendum and think a second one would be even more divisive. The point I am making is that it is not just me who thinks the public were misinformed and manipulated. And, yes, before you ask and to save you going back a few posts that is on both sides and includes me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 10:17 AM

Misinformed on what?

Manipulated how?

Nobody had to tell me anything for me to understand how corrupt the EU is.

Nobody had to tell me anything about the absolute inability of the EU to reform.

Nobody had to tell me of the incessant attempts of the EU to form a political Union that the British electorate was never asked to join.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 10:49 AM

...and nobody had to tell me that unregulated immigration is a disaster waiting to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM

Ah, it's Monday, the Union Flag Y fronts have been on the line so these two are refreshed and ready to be belligerent and bullying again.

If it wasn't so predictable it would be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

People who think that nobody has to tell them things are lifelong ignoramuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:47 AM

Of course they didn't Teribus. You know all about everything. Us mere mortals do not always have such perfect perception though so we need to rely on reasoned arguments from both sides to help us decide which course of action would be best. All we got was rhetoric such as yours from both sides. It must be nice to be infallible but, sadly, we don't all have that power. Although, some of us can keep an open mind.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

You'll always need someone to tell you things Stevie boy, like how to tie your shoe laces......Oh I forgot, you're a sandals man...that'll be handy for you...eh? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

Ah, the lifelong communist who supports nationalism and then votes for the right wing Tory party who have opposed even the idea of Scotland even having another say. No need for you to try and make jokes, ake. Everyone laughs at you anyway.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:44 PM

This is what happens when you vote if you're one of those who nobody can tell anything except what's already ideologically-fixed in your head. You get promised that the NHS will get £350 million a week that you won't get. You get promised subsidies for farmers that match EU subsidies that farmers won't get. You get promised control over our borders that you won't get because more than half of immigrants come from outside the EU anyway and we can't do without most of the ones who do come from the EU. You get promised that you'll get a really good trade deal that you won't get. You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee. You get promised that winter fuel payments and the triple lock will get nobbled which you won't get because of a grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian backwoodsmen (with apologies to John if he's listening in). Jeremy Corbyn gets ridiculed for having a magic money tree then the Tories - guess what! - find a magic money tree to buy off the DUP shitbags with a massive bung. That's what you get when you declare that you don't need anybody to tell you stuff. You get taken for a ride by a party that acts solely in its own self-interest. What you won't get is any of the things you were expecting to get.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:48 PM

Why do Brexiters assume that a second referendum would reverse the outcome of the first? And then have the nerve to say that that is about respecting the democratic right of the people to choose?

If they believe that what people want is to leave the EU, they should welcome the chance to confirm and affirm that.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:26 PM

I agree with that. And my automatic response to anyone who crows about the "democratic will of the British people" is to remind them that just over one-third of the electorate are dumping us out of the EU with consequences not just for said electorate but for generations of young people to come who will suffer the consequences of this catastophe long after most of this electorate have passed on. I'd also remind them that properly-informed democratic decisions can be taken only after fair, open, honest debate. Hands up all those who think that the referendum campaign fitted that particular bill. Having argued all my life against referendums I find it hard to campaign for another one, though, in the framework of principle defined by previous referendums, there would be nothing at all wrong in holding another. It would be the third, not tne second, by the way. I didn't hear many leavers campaigning against holding the recent one, the second EU referendum......

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

We will have to agree to disagree over this, Steve. I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition.

What should have happened is the government should have done their job properly. The rules of the referendum should have been a 2/3 majority at least. The fact that it was only advisory should have been adhered to. There should have been strict rules on campaigning honestly. When it did go wrong pig sticker general should have admitted he gambled and lost and said he could not accept such a close result rather than being allowed to fall on his sword.

But none of that did happen and the Tories are now paying the price. We should now concentrate on getting the best deal possible and hoping that the resultant swing to the left across Europe will be of benefit to everyone.

Just my 2p of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 04:11 AM

No you do not need to be told everything if at first you have been taught to think for yourself. What you do is observe and see the difference in what is said and what is done.

Maastricht: Maggie got us a rebate, which Blair then handed away a chunk of in a deal that required that the EU would reform it's CAP, we certainly lost that chunk of our rebate, did the EU reform it's CAP - did it F**K. The reason? because French "farmers" would object.

Budgets - tell me why the EU has not been able to sign off on audited accounts on it's expenditure since God knows when? After all we all have to do that every year, your local council has to do it every year, the company you work for has to do it every year, your Government has to do it every year - But somehow when it comes to the unelected EU Commission they mysteriously get a free pass.

By the way Shaw - The claim I was responding to was that "we" (The electorate) were misinformed and manipulated - my post asked for specifics which seem to have gone unanswered.

1: There was no promise on £350 million for the NHS - if that is the way you read it then you are simply a fool who does not understand plain English.

2: Has there been any sort of announcement on what rate of VAT will be levied in the UK post Brexit? Any claims by anyone at all that it will be scrapped? What the F**k do you think pays for the CAP hand-outs? The UK is the second largest net contributor to the EU's coffers after Germany. Which means Shaw that we put in (Through revenue raised by VAT) more than we get back, so if VAT remains the same and Government spending stays the same then whatever we got via EU payments can continue at the same level, plus there is a surplus. You stating, with what appears to be absolute certainty, what will happen and who will not get what at some point in the future is simple baseless, guesswork and scaremongering. Who are you trying to manipulate and misinform?

3: How many "refugees" are flooding into Europe each day Shaw? Blair & Co admitted that their "open door" policy was one of the biggest mistakes that they made (Among Many!!). Once in Europe Shaw and once registered in any EU country Shaw what do they become? We have no control over who gets into Europe, and as members of the EU we are compelled to obey the rules regarding free movement. The EU cannot close or control it's borders (Physical impossibility) - but we can we live on an island. Control over your borders means that you let in who you want in, who you need in. It seems pretty much a one way street according to the figures 3.2 million EU workers in the UK to 0.8 million UK citizens working throughout the other member states (Why is that Shaw? What is the attraction to working in the UK over working in other EU countries?). The UK Government has made a pretty clear and definite statement regarding the rights of EU citizens currently living and working in the UK - tell me Shaw what statements have the EU made about UK citizens living and working in the EU?

4: "You get promised that you'll get a really good trade deal that you won't get." - More guess work Shaw? You do not have the slightest inkling of what any future trade deal might be, so please do not insult our intelligence by trotting out definite statements on things you know absolutely nothing about. Trade is trade and here are the very well documented facts regarding trade between the UK and the rest of the EU:

a) The UK buys more from the EU than they buy from us. Under those circumstances who gets hurt most if there is no deal? Rhetorical question Shaw it's the EU - If there is no deal German car manufacturers take a 20% hit, damage the German economy and the EU is basically f**ked.

b) The UK is the world's fifth largest economy and the EU's second largest net contributor. That latter bit is important because it means when we leave, if EU funding is to be continued without cuts, somebody has to step in and make up the difference. Who is that going to be? Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and France are all precarious and are all Euro currency countries. It will be interesting to see how readily the French will take to President Macron's reforms - my guess is that they will not, just as they baulked at Hollande's.

c) At the moment the UK does more trade with the rest of the world than it does with the EU, especially when you hive off the "goods through Rotterdam" scam that falsely inflates our trade with the EU figures. It is easier for one single country to negotiate international trade deals than it is for a huge block as complex and as "protectionist" as the EU - ask Switzerland.

5: "You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee." - More Shaw guess work - you haven't a clue - if agreement is not reached then it costs us nothing, we simply walk away. I do not think that that will happen because in truth the EU needs a deal as much as, if not more than, we do. Ever heard of mutual interest, or common sense for that matter Shaw?

6: "You get promised that winter fuel payments and the triple lock will get nobbled which you won't get because of a grubby deal with a bunch of sectarian backwoodsmen" - Means testing of "Winter fuel payments" did not appear in the Queen's Speech Shaw, neither did any mention of abandoning the triple lock on pensions. On the latter there was never ever any mention of OAP being reduced, the triple lock was based on:

a) Rate of inflation (Currently 2.9%)
b) Retail Price Index
c) Guaranteed 2.5%

What that last bit c) gives you is an ongoing ever increasing pension bill irrespective of whether the cost of living has gone up or not - that is unsustainable. If you drop that and inflation is 0 then why should pensions go up?

7: When the Labour Party wrote it's 2017 Election Manifesto it did so knowing that the Party did not have a snowball in Hell's chance of winning the election. The promises made although they claimed to be costed, were not. Jeremy Corbyn was, quite rightly ridiculed for having a magic money tree. The UK was going to have fund this had they won and implemented their promises. This "bung" you are talking about £1 billion over two years. Compare that to Corbyn's throw away of abolishing University Tuition Fees and cancelling Student debt that would amount to £35 billion + and then £35 billion a year thereafter, because let's face it Shaw somebody has to pay for education. Fully costed Manifesto my arse, the clowns didn't even factor in the cost of Brexit.

8: I have got news for you Shaw, something I learned from simple observation over the years. Since the advent and predominance of "professional politicians" on the political scene in the UK - Every political party acts solely in its own self-interest - you can bank on it - Labour is no different.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

No you do not need to be told everything if at first you have been taught to think for yourself. What you do is observe and see the difference in what is said and what is done.

Wow! I am impressed Teribus. You managed to complete your diatribe just by observing the difference between what is said and what is done. You had no help at all in compiling any of your 8 points? How do you know they are all true?

Or is what you say and what you do two entirely different things?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:02 AM

As to answers on how the electorate were misinformed and manipulated here is an article from a right wing publication that agrees that we were

Analysis in the Torygraph

There are plenty more of course but at least you cannot accuse this one of left wing bias.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:13 AM

"You had no help at all in compiling any of your 8 points? How do you know they are all true?"

The floors yours Gnome - Eight points challenge and refute what I have said, if you can. If not then your rantings are just so much hot air and noise signifying nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:18 AM

I am not refuting anything but the fact that you say that you do not need to be told anything, Teribus. Explain how you make decisions based only on seeing the difference between what is said and what is done.

Floor back to you petal.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

Just put this up elsewhere - thougt it might be of interest here
Nice twist on Britain's "ruling elite" style of democracy yesterday.
In order to have an overall majority, the Tory Government had done a deal with the DUP (linked to Loyalist terrorism) where it had bunged £Billion of the taxpayers money to Northern Ireland in order to gain a majority - bet they don't declare that on their election expenses
One of the conditions imposed on Britain by the DUP is that the Security Forces do not have to face trials for crimes they are accused of committing
Democratic Britain is now dancing to the tune of a Party implicated in terrorism who is demanding state terrorist ativities are immune from prosecution
Rule Britannia eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: JHW
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:37 AM

Terrorism aside I don't see how the Tory so called government is allowed to buy votes with public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:45 AM

I also gather that they must have found that magic money tree that they said does not exist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:50 AM

Jim
"Democratic Britain is now dancing to the tune of a Party implicated in terrorism who is demanding state terrorist ativities are immune from prosecution
Rule Britannia eh?"

and Corbyn could not ever be guilty of such a sin?

https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/corbyn-terrorism-and-intervention/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 07:17 AM

"and Corbyn could not ever be guilty of such a sin?"
Corbyn has explained his position at length and it has been dropped from the political agenda
The Media made much of Corbyn's supposed connection with Sinn Fein during the election, yet Labour still managed to wipe out the Government's overall majority - the electorate came to terms with the accusations so they are a dead letter .
Beside the point anyway
That is a little different from being governed by a Government that is relying on the support of a party with terrorist links who have not only blackmailed a billion pounds out of taxpayers money for their support bu they have also forced an agreement that members of the military who might be guilty of murder and torture will not be tried and punished for their alleged crimes.
You may add to all this (as The Times says this morning) - we ain't seen nothing yet.
If the Government continues to need DUP support they will have to agree to further demands - this is an open-ended deal
The golden rule has always been "never pay a blackmailer" - yet this is exactly what our Prime Minister has done
Britain has been put in hock to a Party with terrorist links and have allowed them to milk the British taxpayer
This would be a stupid thing to do without the fact that the D.U.P. leader is under examination for the misuse of Northern Irish taxes
Ms Mayfly has earned the title 'Blunderwoman' with full honours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:48 AM

"Labour still managed to wipe out the Government's overall majority"

According to John Cutice that was done by Corbyn &Co buying the votes of the young with an empty promise that if he had won would have cost the British Taxpayer over £35 billion per year. To prevent the threat of that and the rest of Corbyn's wastrel programmes I'd say the £1 billion over two years is cheap at twice the price. Apart from that it is worth it just to see the smirks wiped off the faces of the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg and Huw Edwards who now appear nightly complete with visages similar to people who are chewing wasps - Priceless.

Also please remember that the only reason this works for the Conservatives is because members from another political party with even closer ties to an even deadlier paramilitary group of terrorists in Northern Ireland fraudulently stand in elections having no intention of representing their constituents at Westminster - still take the money and reap the expenses though.

Apart from a commitment to the 2% of GDP to NATO I see nothing about any amnesties although that particular move is long overdue - always though it a bit one sided that only the sins of certain paramilitaries can be pardoned - ALL OR NOTHING - LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. It's called equality in the face of the law Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:48 AM
"Also please remember that the only reason this works for the Conservatives is because members from another political party with even closer ties to an even deadlier paramilitary group of terrorists in Northern Ireland fraudulently stand in elections having no intention of representing their constituents at Westminster - still take the money and reap the expenses though"

The truth of the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:07 AM

5: "You get promised a cheap brexit which you won't get because we'll get no deal at all unless we pay a huge exit fee." - More Shaw guess work - you haven't a clue - if agreement is not reached then it costs us nothing, we simply walk away.

You accuse me of guesswork then you say the same thing as me - we no pay, they no deal. 😂 But if you really think that no agreement and walking away will cost this country nothing, then I think you need somebody to spend time telling you stuff, preferably not one of those little Englanders who you've clearly idolised in the past. And, presumably, if someone once taught you to think for yourself, then somebody clearly did tell you stuff... you're a bit weird really, aren't you? As for the rest of what you appear to regard as my speculations, well we'll see. I'd say that your optimism about our going it alone is infinitely more speculative. And farmers have pointedly not been promised those subsidies after 2020. Well, except in Northern Ireland! As with the NHS £350 million, the money simply won't be there. Check it out. And the end to the triple lock and the means testing of winter fuel payments WERE In May's manifesto, but have now been ditched as part of the grubby DUP deal. I suppose she gambled in the fact that they were bloody unpopular measures anyway, but they were still picked from the magic money tree, weren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM

Thanks for ten year old article Raggy, much appreciated - If correct then that has made me feel much, much better. They are however still paid and they do still claim expenses........ So what's your point?

Oh and Shaw very pleased to read that you have now downgraded your definite statements on Brexit to mere speculations now - a move in the right direction. The big difference between my speculations and yours is that yours are ideologically based rantings and mine are based on common sense and fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:25 AM

The big difference between my speculations and yours is that yours are ideologically based rantings and mine are based on common sense and fact.

And, presumably, on the fact that you don't need to be told anything because you already know everything based on the observation of what is said and what is done?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

"According to John Cutice "
As you seen into typos - I think you mean John Curtice
So we have a young electorate moronic enough to be "bought"
Better - and better, but it does give you a chance to sidestep the buying the loyalty of a party with terrorist links via a bung fro taxpayers money
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:34 AM

My point is your post was misleading.

To quote one of your questions to Steve back to you:

"Who are you trying to manipulate and misinform?"

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:43 AM

I note Teribus assumes that a second referendum would be likely to reverse the result of last year's - "I don't believe a second referendum will do anything but divide the country still further and give Farage and his ilk more ammunition."

A second referendum that confirmed the result of last year's would pretty well silence those who are calling for it to be reversed. The reason it is opposed is that those against any such referendum feel no confidence in the possibility of a second victory for Brexit.

The trouble is, that cannot be seen as consistent with the stated demand that the will of the British people should be respected. In truth, itrepresents a firm determination to ensure that that does not happen.
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Yet another example of how the ability to correct ourselves is almost universal - any time we set up a new password on the Internet we are required to print it in a second time. We all make mistakes sometimes.