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BS: brexit matters

Iains 12 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 09:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Sep 17 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM
The Sandman 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM
David Carter (UK) 12 Sep 17 - 02:01 PM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 03:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 17 - 04:35 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 06:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 04:35 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 04:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 08:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 09:33 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 10:15 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 11:16 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 01:59 PM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:09 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM
David Carter (UK) 13 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 07:32 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 07:34 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM

"The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century,"
Strange you trot the above out every opportunity yet never mention the highland clearances. Were they just a walk in the park?

" thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence"
Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK.
Should we root out the angles and saxons and vikings on the basis od their DNA and ship them out after x hundred years. This makes as much sense as you using the term "settlers" just to make a pathetic divisive argument. The development of industry in the north not the south was primarily due to geography Take away shipbuilding and linen and there ain't a lot left, and both have been in serious decline for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:55 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me
Britain outside the E.U., because it is unable to "stand on its own feet", becomes dependent on being "Global"
Brexit is very much an isolationist policy - that is how it was sold - not unsimilar to Trump's "making America Great again"
Both are based on getting rid of foreigners - Trump is somewhat more forthright in blaming all America's ills on immigrants, the Brexit campaign was largely based on 'the urbanned menace' and the effects of that were seen immediately in the rise of racist incidents.
Even within the E.U., Britain's policy of importing goods produced under appalling conditions was immoral and detrimental to the British people as a whole by doing exactly what Ake and others have accused immigration of doing, undercutting British labour.
Can I make this "Irish" thing quite clear
I am a British citizen living in Ireland - I own no loyalty to or bear any responsibility for the actions of Irish politicians
My feeling is that, under the system we all live under, membership of Europe is better for both in the short term
If you want to propose a system that is to the advantage of the British (and Irish) people as a whole, you have me ear, and probably my support
As it stands, Brexit seems a return to the dark days of boom and slump, permanent high unemployment, accelerating differences between haves and have-nots and an economy run for the already over-privileged.
As I said earlier, the E.U. is an organisation of capitalist states - fine in the short term; in the long term, it has my support as the rope supports a hanging man - Greece confirmed that for me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:00 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me


And I was questioning your response, which is where the claim that Brexit makes UK 'isolationist'.

I'll quote the whole post just so you can't say I'm quoting you out of context:
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

(Iains) "and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
(Jim)No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
(Iains) "For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
(Jim) The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

"Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK."
The Protestant majoority came from 'Pnater' stock and immediately set about creating a 'Planter' based State which discriminated against one third of the population and in doing so, forfeited any right to describe itself as "democratic"
Britain became part of that non-democracy in its reaction to the attempts of the third to improve the balance and so became instrumental in bringing about the bloody 'Troubles' we all lived though.
Nobody, The Unionists, The Nationalists or the Brits came out with clean hands, but the ultimate blame lies with the nearly half-century of inequality and bigotry
Sorry - this is becoming a triologue
I suggest that, unless you have nothing new to add, we leave it there and give others a chance
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

Is it a storm in a teacup?will not the poor still be poor and the rich, wealthy?I hope that the Labour party wins and thatthast poor people in society get protection from unsrupulous employers


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:01 PM

The Protestant majority may have wanted to remain in the UK in the 1920s, but the UK of today is a far lesser place. I think it would be worth checking what the majority of the population want now.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM

David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM

"David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end) "
Your WiKi article is undated
The D.U.P are now a minority part - they still have the largest number of votes, but should their opponents combine they will be outnumbered - all three are opposed to Brexit and have no great aversion to a United Ireland.
The majority of the Republic would now vote for a United Ireland
Within the next couple of years there will no longer a Protestant majority in Ireland - they will be in the minority numerically.
Hopefully the Catholics in ascendance will not treat the Protestants the same way they have been treated since 1922, one wa of guaranteeing this will not happen will be to make the power sharing negotiations to work in everybody's favour.
Brexit has put this at risk - a hard border and direct rule from Westminster will guarantee return to the early 70s
I was announced today by the police that toe U.V.F, - the paramilitary group with links to the DUP (the Party Britain has just bunged a billion for their support for Brexit) is now heavily involved in the drugs trade -NOTHING NEW THERE, linking Britain not just to terrorrim but also to narcotics
Wake up and smell the coffee lads
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:17 PM

Here you are Jim. The bit(with dates) that you did not read.



"A 2011 survey by Northern Ireland Life and Times found that 52% of Northern Irish Catholic respondents favoured union with Great Britain over a united Ireland.[42][43] This is despite the fact that most Catholics who vote do so for political parties that are Nationalist.

According to a 2015 opinion poll, 70% expressed a long-term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 14% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland.[44] This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (93%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (47%), a united Ireland (32%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (4%), and those who "don't know" (16%).[45]

Since the 2016 Brexit vote, support for reunification has increased, with 22% of respondents favourable towards reunification, up from 17% in 2013.[46] 43% of Catholics would now back reunification, up from 35% in 2013. According to this survey, support for a referendum stands at 53% of Catholics, while 72% of Protestant respondents were opposed to the idea."


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:35 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

brilliant post! agree with every word


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:17 PM

The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny was enthusiastically maintained by New Labour and the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic. All the signs were there but we were all doing oh so well (except for the poor, who found themselves falling further and further behind). The US housing market was the most unbelievably irresponsible place. Once that shivered we all caught flu. But we were doing very bad things here too. Banks not having the equity to support risky lending. You could borrow 125% of the value of the house you were buying, no deposit needed, few checks, borrowing six times your income. It wasn't Clinton doing that in the UK, Teribus. It was Northern Rock and all the rest of 'em. But we haven't learned. Trump is deregulating again, deregulation is in the Tories' blood and indebtedness is as bad here as it was before 2008. Whilst I would never dream of doing it, even on my modest income I could go out tomorrow and buy a hundred-grand sports car if I wanted to, no deposit, no problem. My "credit rating" is absolutely spotless. No-one's watching me!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM

you'd need more than a hundred grand.

the other thing about the Thatcher/ Blair period was the bit where bankruptcy became good business practice. you embark on a project . raise loans, live the high life - but the business is registered somewhere outside the jurisdiction of England. It became an intelligent way to exploit the the THatcherite liberalisation of credit. quite an acceptable way for business to be conducted.

the iceberg hit....you start another business. Larry Lamb and Tim Spall were in a tv play about it at the time.

I know to my cost because a record/publishing company who were doing my songs at the time did it to me and a lot of other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM

"The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny"
"the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic."
You have that ass about face!
Try this!
" In the 1930s, the Glass-Steagall Act prohibited retail banks from using deposits to fund risky stock market purchases.

In the 1980s, banks sought deregulation to allow them to compete globally with more profitable financial firms. In 1999, they got their wish. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed Glass-Steagall.

The banks promised to invest only in low-risk securities. These would diversify their portfolios and reduce the risk for their customers. Instead, traditional banks invested in risky derivatives to increase profit and shareholder value.

Foreign countries blame these lax U.S. banking regulations for the global financial crisis. In 2008, the G-20 asked the United States to increase regulation of hedge funds and other financial firms. The United States refused, saying deregulation was needed for companies to compete globally.

Two years later, the G-20 got several things it had asked for when Congress passed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act. First, the Act required banks to hold more capital to cushion against large losses. Second, it included strategies to keep companies from becoming too big to fail. The biggest was insurance giant American International Group Inc. Third, it required derivatives to move onto exchanges for better monitoring."


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM

Iains
Two of those dates predate Brecit
What you choose to ignore is that in the speed of the shift of of opinion that is taking place
At the time of the Troubles 98.9% voted to remain
Since then the position has rocketed to where it is now
Sinn Fein has for the first time called for a referendum, confident that it can win.
The ruling party no longer has an overall majority and will not survive without the co-operation of the other parties.
Let's face it - the idea of a large section of a nation voting for whether it should be ruled by another is a bizarre and grotesque one anyway and always has been
Transfer the same logic to Britain and imagine the six Eastern counties having to vote or take up arms to decide whether is should still belong to Germany (had it once been part of the Hapsburg Empire)
All this is a bloody throwback to the time when a large section of the world was ruled by an Empire on which "the sun never set nor the blood ever dried" - a predatory system of world enslavement that was given the kiss of death when entire generations of young men gave their lives in its defence.
I have never been a nationalist of any sort - English or Irish, but I have come to realise the importance of a people being allowed to create their own future and make their own mistakes.
Ireland was ruled by a long-term attempt to deliberate and systematic destroy its culture, militarily, politically and socially -
The Irish renaissance in the 19th century proved that that failed miserabl soy, when it became necessary, Britain turned to annexation under the treat of war.
That has filled body bags ever since and will continue to do so until "The Irish Question" is finally laid to rest.
We've been over this a hundred times on this forum - I really think we should leave it there and give everybody else a chance
I really am tired of these arguments with Empire Loyalists who salute flag like pets who "roll over and die for the queen" at the commands of their masters
Thank you Al - nice to have a meeting point with someone I have no real argument with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:35 AM

You can buy an MX5 new for low twenties, Al. Mrs Steve has a beaten-up ten-year-old soft-top job. You can have it for three grand. It's a peach. Basic, noisy, occasional wet carpets but more fun than a barrelful of monkeys.

Demonstrating your fiscal knowledge in that unfocused way is not addressing points, Iains. It's just boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:37 AM

Jim. The last poll showed a slight majority to remain. How that pans out in the future is any one's guess. The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be.

My previous post has a bit of a timing gap that requires explanation.
During Maggie's reign Big Bang occurred that turned the city inside out.
Difficult to summarize briefly but technology was introduced, dealing became way more efficient and outside banks came to play. Also the first major UK privatisations occurred involving record sums. Now whether you wish to argue it reflected the inevitable march of progress or it was a cunning Thatcherite plan you can argue for ever.
"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism," as city grandee David Buik puts it.
In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

its getting increasingly opaque.

i don't see why anyone should get angry with anyone else for not agreeing with or understanding the reasons for a point of view on this subject.

its SO complicated.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism"

Fine talk from yer man. But another way of putting it is that the City was put into the hands of spivs who no-one was watching.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

"The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be."
I've saidd that a hundred times Iains - I've also pointed out that Brexit has put that in grave danger
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 06:27 AM

"In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing."
This is th truest word anybody has written
Unfortunately they fail to mention that all these advances have been made at the expense of working people (many of whom are not working).
Thatcher divided Britain sharply into haves and have-nots, cutting adrift whole swathes of Britain to live in poverty - two of her greatest cons were turning homes into "investments" and respectabalising greed.
Sure - investments have risen and the haves now have far more -go look at the gap and tell me that is not the case.
We have no industry and workers are treated as expendable - forced to take anything on offer or starve and in doing so destroying any stake that had in the country
Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
The largest percentage export in Britain today is money, which benefits only those in finance
If a firm avoids paying billions in tax ther are regarded as 'successful' - if a worker fiddles a few quid out of his or her tax they are criminals.
You want to see a lifelike depiction of life in Britain today, go see 'I Daniel Blake' - if you don't go away angry, you are not human.
I really don't understand what king of people can accept what is happening today without comment
There y'ar lads - another "rant" for you
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM

All true, Jim. What Thatcher did was to make spiv culture permanently respectable. The financial institutions are behaving today exactly as they were doing up to 2008. There WILL BE another crash. It's just a matter of when. And the icing on the cake for us is the upcoming brexit catastrophe. Thank your lucky stars, baby boomers like me. Nobody's ever had it so good and never will again.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM

i don't think people are treated worse than slaves in the antebellum confederate states of the USA.

i agree with a lot of what you say - but really that's wrong on so many levels. And i think you know it is.

Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:15 AM

"Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them."
Are you really suggesting that British workers are valued higher than someone who has been prchased as an investment - which is the point I was making Al?
Convince me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM

Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.

I can't agree that British working people are treated worse than slaves.
They may be valued less (which is what your comment goes on to suggest) but that is not the same as being "treated worse".
Who, in Britain gets beaten on a daily basis?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:33 AM

Sorry Nigel - that's what I meant to say - my mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour. The answer is not that simple.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:15 AM

The answer actually is very simple. The only people who can drive down wages are the people who pay the wages. There are not many unskilled/temporary/seasonal workers, especially if they have come to find work to support their families overseas, who have the choice to say to an employer, stuff your low wages, I won't work for you, go and find a Brit instead. Blaming EU workers for driving down wages is xenophobic and was a mainstay of the racist brexit campaign. Just try to remember that we are talking about large numbers of people who are not organised to fight back and who the Tories have made sure enjoy no employment security. The Tories refer to them as the flexible labour market. Us lefties refer to them as vulnerable human beings. And where they come from is immaterial.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM

The fault lies with the EU.   The economic policy of Free movement of Labour drives down wages, stops proper training programmes for UK citizens.

Of course the bosses will use cheap labour that is why Free Movement is an ECONOMIC policy! Of course immigrants will come here in their millions, the money they earn is worth three times as much in Poland or Romania!

Neither of these groups can be blamed for working the system, the fault lies with the EU dictatorship and the sooner we get out the better.....Deal or no deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM

its a bit like Monkey World - have you seen that programme. One day - all the troupe ganged on old Rodney who had been the leader of the troupe. They found old Rodney's mangled body and a new younger guy had become the troupe leader.

The late wonderful Jim Cronin ( founder of Monkeyworld) was explaining it. He said - There are no villains. There are no bad guys - its just what monkeys do.

You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less. Irish people used to come over. Bob Geldof was in Boston at United Canners when he was a a young 'un. the wages were always shit. when i was a kid i used to pick daffodils and beans for two bob an hour.

there are no bad guys. its just what monkeys do. the trouble is that there is widespread ignorance about how people in different parts of the country live.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:16 AM

There is no "EU dictatorship." All the countries of the EU are democracies that must operate under the rule of law. This country has agreed to over 95% of thousands of EU laws and directives, disputing very few, and has played a major part in drawing them up. For an unwieldy organisation consisting of 28 countries containing half a billion people, the degree of harmony is amazing. There is no little man in a Brussels bunker telling us how long our courgettes should be. And I'm a very simple man, as you all know. So let me repeat. The person who pays the wages is the employer. Subject only to the law of the land, the employer is the man who decides what wages to pay. Yes the government of the country can have policies that make it harder for him to pay higher wages or employ more people. But this government has made it easy for employers to shirk responsibilities such as paying sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay and national insurance. This government has made it easier to employ people then tell them there's no work today, tough luck, try again tomorrow and you won't be paid. This government has made it easier for employers to offload workers without reason and with little notice, without fear of redress. This government has emasculated trade unions, making it next to impossible for them to step in to protect workers who are under any kind of threat. It's called "the flexible labour market" and its aims are to keep employees firmly in their places by maximising job insecurity, to keep wages low and to persuade us that there have never been more jobs in the history of the nation. What they fail to explain is why growth in this country is the weakest in the G7 and EU and why productivity has been bumping along the bottom for years. Funny, that. Not one person goes to work wanting less money. Blaming immigration for "driving down wages" is unfair, bonkers, xenophobic and often downright racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM

"You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less."

If they won't pay the minimum wage they are breaking the law. If they deliberately pay a desperate man less than someone else for doing the same job, they are unprincipled. So you seem to be saying that you can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for being lawless and unprincipled. Well I can, hastening only to add that I'm sure it isn't all or even most of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM

""EU dictatorship." "
Don't feed a troll who ignores facts and uses these threads as a soapbox for his racism Steve
He will keep putting this extremism up and ignoring responses as long as he is fed "the oxygen of publicity"
He knows as well as the rest of us that there are no jobs to accommodate mythical training schemes#The Government has admitted that the problem lies with the education system not turning out applicants and that is what needs addressing, not the influx of immigrants who arriving with skills and are essential to the economy
Immigrants are essentially filling in a gap, not taking training places
HORSE'S MOUTH CONFESSION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM

Nothing to do with any UK Govt Labour or Conservative.

"Freedom of Movement" is one of the pillars of the European Dictatorship.....whichever government is in power in the UK must accept Free Movement or leave.
Thankfully the people of Great Britain had the sense to vote in favour of leaving the EU and regaining control over the affairs of the United Kingdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM

That's your trouble Steve,
you believe in myth.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but we live in a capitalist society you and the other faux lefties vote for the continuation of that type of society, so don't come whining to me that it's "just not fair".

Nobody said it would be "fair"....it isn't "fair" ....it will never be "fair"......   in fact the system would collapse if everything was "fair".
I could take you to areas where most of the folks haven't worked for generations, places where the "drug culture" and criminality are the local economy.......Fair, don't talk to me about what's not fair, you seem to be quite comfortable on your pension reasonable lifestyle, think yourself fucking lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

A very peculiar post, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:59 PM

are you sure its not you two that's got it wrong? with the best will in the world, what Ake says isn't a rant. that is really how it is in many parts of the country. i'm happy for you that you have missed seeing poor people living in desperate conditions - willing to work for less than a living wage, work on the black, work for gangers, work on commission....its always been half the economy of this country. that's what the unions were made to combat - and its why they're not allowed in many industries.

you really do need a reality check.

i disagree with Strolling Johnny/Backwoodsman about Brexit - but I'm pretty sure he will tell you how the hard drugs became the mainstay of the economy when the mines went in the north notts area. working men became the lumpenproletariat - willing to work in out of the way factories for a hundred quid a week to blow on a weekend. things really were that bad, and into this hell broth came the economic refugees from every corner of the globe.

if you lived somewhere where this didn't happen count yourself bloody lucky - but be assured it happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll

Strange. I can understand perfectly what Ake is saying. As the economic cycle progresses job oportunities expand and contract as a direct response. Shortage of labour drives wages up, surfeit drives them down.
The unskilled at the bottom of the heap suffer the most grief. This is a harsh reality but anyone sucking on the public teat like teachers are well insulated from such facts of life. Just continue living in your deluded bubble. You probably also support that maniac Len McCluskey with his threats to break the law. You armchair socialists have not got a clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

that's an unpleasant and unnecessary thing to say Iains.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:08 PM

Well I suppose we have to conclude from your posts that you had bloody awful teachers, Iains. You certainly weren't sucking on any of their teats.

One thing that we teachers come to realise is that the real bloody idiots of this society are the people who don't see the value of the education they had at school. There are two egregious examples on this forum, Iains and Teribus, both completely pig-ignorant of what being a teacher entails and both as rough in their manners and demeanour as a vulture's crutch.

And fer chrissake, Al, if you really think akenaton had it right in that post, then there's no bloody hope for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:09 PM

"Just continue living in your deluded bubble. "
Unncessary and nasty indeed
I was brought up on council housing estateds and worked for a living - I am now livin g on a staaate pension with no oyther income
We buried a sister earlier this year - one of twins 9 years younger than me
Both left school with good marks but were unable to get higher education because it wasn't available to us in those days and my parents would not have been able to afford keepin them
They went to work in a factory - labouring for a third less than the maen were getting for the same job
Mora - the one who died was a stacker in a warehouse and dri=ove a fork-lift truck as part of her job
Both of them earned a pittance as unskilled workers.
Five years ago Moira had a fall and broke her femur which led to a mini-stroke and kidney infection, which eventually demanded dialysis
Her treatment caused another infection which needed hospitalisation - which Ake and Teribus dexscribed as "oh my sore back" and scrounging off the state to pay for holidays"
She went blind bust was assured it could be cured by an operation (which she never got because the waiting lists were too long)
Eventually, she had her toes removed, but due to overworked, underpaid and underappreciated hospital staff, the operation was botched and the removal of the leg became necessary - she gave up, demanded we let her die
She died in early July
When you scum talk about "sucking on the public teat" and "bubbles" and "breaking the law" take a look at how the real world is for the majority of Britain's population
HOW FUCKING DARE YOUR, YOU INHUMAN PRiCKS?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM

Plenty of Typos there for you turds to feed from
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

Freedom of Movement is one of the pillars of European Democracy. Its our right of Free Movement, which the likes of you Ake, want to take away from us, and our children and grandchildren.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:32 PM

Heartily agreed, David.

This "armchair socialist" was brought up in a slum for the first ten years of my life. I had planty of experiences to keep me grounded, thank you Iains. You need to stop copying Teribus. I told you that you come across as his puppydog. Like him, you make assumptions about people who you've never met and know about only from what you read here. That isn't safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:32 PM

Back to my over-emotional post
I've become tired and rather bored with being called "anti-British" even "rcist" by Keith, Tribus and Ake, because of my attitude to British politicians and what they have done to my home country
I don't think I have ever come across three people who hate the ordinary British people as much as they do - scroungers. greedy - malingerers - bed-blockers- stupid - lazy, ruiners of the economy, begrudging and jealous............. you name it, these people have accused the British people of being it, over and over and over again.
And now we have Iains - with his little more than a 'Cap'n Flint parrot-like repeating the insults of Long-John Silver Terinbus
"Hatred and contempt" sums up the attitude of these people, without whom we wouldn't have lights or homes or running water.... or the wherewithal of everyday living.
If all the bakers dropped dead tomorrow, life would go on more or less as normal
If the same thing happened to our tradesmen we'd all be up to our necks in shit, stumbling around in the dark
Personally, I am proud to be included in their hatred - I would take it as a slight if I wasn't
I much prefer the company of those they hate,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:34 PM

"If all the bakers dropped "
If all the Bankers, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM

Every time I read a post from Iains, especially one of his "Jimmy" or "Shaw" ones, I think to myself that I've seen that somewhere before. And of course I have! It's precisely what Teribus has been trying on for years. Iains has no mind of his own. He's latched on, totally unoriginally, to Teribus's modus operandi. Now why would anyone want to do that! Gosh, if there was a trick cyclist in the house, I'd ask him!


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