BS: Use of the English language

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM

Bill Bryson's 'Mother tongue' is pretty good too.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Another masterful piece of research there.
However, I suppose it makes you feel linguistically superior to George W Bush, even if he never said it: Snopes

I recall the same story being told about an English MP (some years ago) The quote then was "The trouble with the Welsh is that they have no word for entrepreneur". George Thomas (Speaker of the house, and a Welshman) responded by asking what the English word was.
Of course, that might also be an invented tale, but it has been around long enough (several decades) that someone thought they could re-use it and attribute it to George W Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM

Or Bill and Ben!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:31 AM

According to the mrs [conversation 2 or 3 weeks ago]

The recently rebooted new series of The Teletubbies has them speaking English with a little more clarity
than the classic original 1990s series...


Whatcha got to say about that then Bonz..

Bloody interfering modern PC revisionists..
leave our Trad British culture of children's TV puppets [or actors in bloody daft costumes]
talking complete bollocks gibberish alone...

Where's Stanley Unwin when we need him the most...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM

It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:20 AM

"As a result of this, the french language is dying"

Thou speakest through one's nipsy good sir. Last time I was in France everyone was speaking French, hardly a language about to go bristol's skyward.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM

"The Adventure of English" by Melvyn Bragg is also worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:14 AM

"Have you the remotest idea of how the English language arrived at its present state Bonzo?"

Even our new puppy, rescued from Romania, doesn't have an English bark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Monique
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

An answer to Dave's comment: The History of English Podcast, it's really great.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM

UK English has been totally fucked up, especially in the Croydon area, by the hotpot of immigration from somewhere else

Have you the remotest idea of how the English language arrived at its present state Bonzo?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM

You/one may/can/might break "rules" willy nilly/willynilly/willy-nilly in every day/every-day/everyday writing or speech. It's perfectly alright/all right to do so, although/though/albeit there are several examples of inelegance in this lot that I wouldn't like to see in a novel, a learned journal or one of my regular posts here. Deliberately breaking rules, such as in a light-hearted series' of post's to do with the apostrophe and it's misuse, is perfectly literate. What isn't literate is breaking rules unknowingly, excusable in most cases but inexcusable when the writer is indulging in high-flown tones or when he's criticising someone else's alleged breaches. That's what Nigel did (though I cheerfully admit that it was probably just a bit of rubbishy proofreading), and that's a practice from which we would be well advised to swiftly move on. God, how I love those split infinitives. A great example of a rule that was never a rule in the first place. As with incomplete sentences. And as with starting sentences with conjunctions. Even those damned incomplete ones. There are times when nitpicking over rules is simply not apropos.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:10 AM

Iains said the purpose of any language is to communicate and I agree. The rules of grammar are an attempt to agree what precisely is meant by a construct, but every language is too wild a creature to be so bound. Richard II has been referenced of late in other threads, and it contains the wonderful rejoiner "Uncle me no uncles". In context at least, absolutely clear what it means, but I doubt if it abides by all the rules of grammar. Similarly therw was a reference to 'Under Milk Wood': an exuberant display of language whose meaning comes across though many rules are broken along the way.

So rules have their place and it would be foolish to ignore them entirely, but they are to my mind the servants of language, not the overlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

When young people hero worship abominations like Stormzy and the like, it’s little wonder the English language has gone wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:43 PM
I’m perfectly happy to interact with you in the most affectionate internet style possible, Nigel (in deference to your complaint, I’ll call you Nigel from now on, though I note your stony silence on “Jom,” “Jimmy,” “Carroll” and “Shaw,” presumably because you think that it’s fine for your forum ally to piss around with our names but not fine for us to piss around with yours. Hmm...).
I have commented on this in the past, quite clearly: (Post Brexit life in UK 1/10/17 11:20
I am not supporting those who miss-use Jim's given name. I'm pointing out that Jim, or yourself, should conduct yourselves in the way you expect others to conduct themselves. I do not address comments to "Jom" or "Carroll" and I can understand why he gets annoyed with those who do. But he can hardly complain about it if he does the same for the names of others. (Such as calling Theresa May "Mayflower"). I was pointing out his double standards in this respect.
The fact that you responded to that comment suggests that you read it. You have also, in the past, objected to others responding to you just as 'Shaw', but see no problem with adjusting my name to fit in with your preferences. More double standards.
Also I have no “forum ally”. My posts represent my thinking, and I would not have it any other way.


“You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language...”
We’ll just allow the irony of that sentence to stand, shall we, Nigel?
Yet it still remains true!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Totally independently of this thread, I got into a discussion with my wife about the differences between pirates and buccaneers (initially: then we threw privateers into the mix).

If you were on the receiving end, it mattered little so they may as well be synomyns for you. And unless you are writing a history book or similar you can still largely regard then as synonyms since the role of licences is not usually relevant to the conversation. Yet even in common use 'buccaneer' contains "Errol Flynn" overtones that pirate does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

to a relatively uneducated Scot.

How about "uptake"?

They use it in NZ meaning "pick up", and I have heard it from a colleage speaking lalland Scortz
I like the Lowland Scots word outwith, the only phrase that comes close being not withstanding but it has a shade of meaning

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

What I said above is true, UK English has been totally fucked up, especially in the Croydon area, by the hotpot of immigration from somewhere else, whether white, black or sky blue pink.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:50 PM

After reading the last few posts I had to go back to actually find what this thread was about.

You witter on about names, none of that matters in the least. You can call one another what you like. It really does not matter. Shaw IS his name, the fact that I do not include the "Steve" is just the measure of contempt I hold him and his views in. In this practice he is as guilty as I am. Personally he would never have come to my notice apart from his unmitigated and remorseless bullying of Keith A of Hertford some four years ago.

So Steve Shaw can rest assured that whatever he states on this forum - I will challenge ad refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:35 PM

(Steve in Dick Emery mode) Ooo, you are awful, Jack --- but I like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM

There are no more Nigels

Perhaps because of:

IKEA

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:43 PM

I’m perfectly happy to interact with you in the most affectionate internet style possible, Nigel (in deference to your complaint, I’ll call you Nigel from now on, though I note your stony silence on “Jom,” “Jimmy,” “Carroll” and “Shaw,” presumably because you think that it’s fine for your forum ally to piss around with our names but not fine for us to piss around with yours. Hmm...).

“You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language...”

We’ll just allow the irony of that sentence to stand, shall we, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

Hey, Donuel, “Nige” is an affectionate, informal way of addressing anyone called Nigel this end. I know two blokes called Nigel and call them both Nige, as does everyone else,

To quote Francis Urquhart (House of cards) "You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment."

I prefer the use of my name as it was given to me. I don't accept that anyone else has the right to decide what is a suitable variation on my name.

You state it is an "affectionate" form, but your postings are anything but.

You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language. Presumably this is because you are unable to do so.

Once it is pointed out to you that you are in error (such as your idea that 'synonyms' are interchangeable) you just start berating my writing style, and suggesting that I should "lighten up".

Your comment:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM
You're becoming the forum saddo, Nige. Lighten up. We've transmogrified your thread into something potentially pleasant!
is an excellent example of an attack on someone whom you are unable to interact with as your perceived 'superiority' (in your view only) totally fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

Hey, Donuel, “Nige” is an affectionate, informal way of addressing anyone called Nigel this end. I know two blokes called Nigel and call them both Nige, as does everyone else, and they wouldn’t want to be called anything different. Yours sincerely, Shaw, friend of Jom, Jimmy and Backwards (about which soubriquets you appear to say nothing...)

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:46 PM

Teribus is losing it bigtime, Dave. He was mortally wounded by Joe’s excellent post which characterised him as a problem poster. He’s been unstable ever since. Take no notice from now on. He’s a very old man who’s totally isolated and burnt out. I wouldn’t bother responding to his bile. Just tell him the truth, which is that he’s a bitter old man who needs help.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

But before this thread should, quite deservedly, bite the dust. how come I was brought into an argument on the closed thread?

How was it the Gnome put it? Ah yes - "The epitome of politeness"

WTF are you on about tezzer? Why bring me into it? Again? I am getting worried about your fixation with me...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:12 PM

What a blatantly obvious way to have a go at someone! Surely threads should not be allowed to start with the premise of purely having a go at someone should they?

And then the post English is being bastardised by low class immigrants and their hideous music, simple as that. is so nasty and racist that, in my opinion. it should be immediately removed.

Please delete this obnoxious shite mods.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM

Mud, mud, glo-ri-ous mud ...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:11 PM

“ The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do."
As a result of this, the french [sic] language is dying.

As a result of what? The article you linked to gives a number of reasons for the decline, but yours is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:47 PM

English word gigabyte
French       gigaoctet
Irish       gigabyte
Welsh       gigabyte
Spanish      gigabyte

Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

My mrs [South Welsh] has been half-heartedly learning Welsh for years,
to at least make an effort for her Bi lingual family members married in from further up North Wales...

I find it interesting & amusing how Welsh speakers [and more cosmopolitan / educated Indians] pepper their conversation with random English words and phrases...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

" The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do."
As a result of this, the french language is dying. Better the english way where the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, to name but a few, to keep the language fluid and evolving.
The fixation of the French on the preservation of their language reminds me of Afrikaans. Their technical language never evolved beyond describing bits of a bullock cart.
French decay

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

English is being bastardised by low class immigrants and their hideous music, simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

Steve Shaw, in America 'Nigel' is a perfectly proper English name.

Your abbreviated use of Nigel as NIG or Nige is not.

You can keep your invitation to a cup of coffee.
It's incredibly cheap anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

Thank you, Jack. I love adding to my vocabulary.
Those religious guys back then really knew how to curse!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:33 AM

Jack, what is a "funling"?

Literally "foundling" but in that context (The Flyting o Dunbar and Kennedie) it seems to mean "runt". "Wan-fukkit" for Dunbar meant that your parents were so unenthusiastic and lackadaisical about fucking each other that they didn't fuck you into existence properly.

I don't think Gavin Dunbar, Archbishop of Glasgow, was any relation, but his "Great Cursing" is the work of somebody who could really have used the Internet effectively:

http://www.biggararchaeology.org.uk/pdf_reports/BASTLE_CURSINGS.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

I’d politely suggest that the thread in question bit the dust (if we really must ruminate over such things instead of just moving on) largely as a result of the tirade of four crude attacks from Teribus in the space of a few hours. And you’re just jealous, Iains. Anyway, this is a thread in which we may presumably express our opinions about the use of English, as Stu has just done and as I have also done in the thread, without being accused of “posturing.”

I’m also a fan of Roger’s Profanisaurus. I have several books on the use of English and find that none is comprehensive, but my favourite is Mind The Gaffe by Larry Trask. One thing that always comes across is that many of the alleged rules are not rules at all (you can even say “irregardless” if you want to), as English is defined by the way it’s used and not by professors in English departments. But I agree with Stu to the extent that there’s no harm in fighting to preserve useful points of grammar and nuances of expression. I once forced a PE teacher to rewrite a pupil’s report in which he’d stated that the lad was disinterested in athletics. When it comes to what we write, the primary concern should be clarity of expression. Making the recipient of your typing work harder on interpretation than they should have to marks a failure of communication, communication, after all, being the thing that language is supposed to be about.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM

Hope you’re listening, Iains... Nope! Too far away-LUCKILY! By the way, the WE is the poor readers of these threads, subjected to your endless posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:06 AM

English is a wonderful and constantly evolving language and I have no issue with grammatical, definition, etymological and other language-based pedantry; it shows people care abut their language. The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do.

As for the last thread being chucked into the chod-bin:

"Not my bit. Up yer arse! Toffee-nosed dimwit. I shouldn't mock. Tory/Kipper tosspots have no idea what England is or ever was."

It was a joke, seemed to be taken by Iain's as such and I enjoyed his reply thoroughly; you'd haver to be a little dense and/or making trouble to think otherwise. It was a bit of banter in a thread that was dominated (again) by the squabblers. You forgot my reply, "Arse pearls!". I stand by this last statement especially, and if it irritates those with a superiority complex over language , then all the better.


Top books on language as recommended by Stu:

Anything by Robert McFarlane, but Landmarks in particular

Under Mil Wood by Dylan Thomas. Almost a drug it's so intoxicating.

Roger's Profanisaurus to both prove the vitality of the English language, the inventiveness of the people of England and to piss off the smunts. Shakespeare would have LOVED this.

The Collected works of Ted Hughes. Language articulating and communicating a deep understanding of England and her ancient, wild soul. This is as close to magic as exists. Heck, it might be magic.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:57 AM

Aside from the “royal we” there, which is very amusing, not to say ironic, I’d just say that I enjoy reading well-constructed English no matter which side of the Atlantic it emanates from. Spellcheckers have a habit of sneaking in rogue apostrophes which may elude the final editing, especially if done on a phone, and that’s excusable. What’s more annoying is densely-constructed English with rambling, unfocused sentences and dodgy, inconsistent grammar that impolitely forces the reader to do too much mental processing. Hope you’re listening, Iains...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM

The sole function of english, both written and spoken, is to enable people to communicate. It is constantly changing and in a global world
local variants of spelling and meaning can infest the internet and achieve dominance within milliseconds.With spellchecker on this forum reverting to american spelling, it is easier to go with the flo, rather than look at a sea of red underlining. As the language is fluid in usage, idioms, spelling, grammar and punctuation it has to be the height of arrogance for anyone person to assume they have both the knowledge and authority to correct another on this highly international forum. Most here left grade school education decades ago and forever being subjected to the "assumed superiority" of the " boasting resident pedan"t is extremely tiresome. Better a tirade on cheap booze or an infestation of weeds. We are not impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

I believe that the posts that closed "The Essence of England" thread were:

1: Subject: RE: BS: The Essence of England
From: Stu - PM
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

"The essence of England is of course rule by Tories."

Not my bit. Up yer arse! Toffee-nosed dimwit. I shouldn't mock. Tory/Kipper tosspots have no idea what England is or ever was.


2: Subject: RE: BS: The Essence of England
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM

Of the 146 posts to the thread those two stand out for reasons that are obvious to anyone who would care to read them.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 09:38 PM

Also: "get outta town!"

Jack, what is a "funling"?

🤔🙂

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 09:33 PM

One can always, if one wishes, use the original emoticons: :-) or ;-) or :{) (if one has a mustache) or <|:-7 if you happen to be a witch smoking a pipe. Or even 7:^] if you happen to be Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:51 PM

so.. emojis still don't work during Max's home improvements...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:49 PM

arseholes...???

arse-holes...???

arse holes...???

.. bewildering.. perplexing... too many options..
.. and mudcat spell check / spellcheck / spell-check insists they are all wrong....!!!!!!?????


[whilst happily accepting and passing as correct all three options of it's own alternative variations...???] ??

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:28 PM

Seems to me that when I was a teenager, getting into the '70s, 'Get outta here!' was a not-uncommon expression of scornful incredulity, and was soon shortened to 'Get out!' That was in southern Ontario. The usage of 'Get out!' to express often-joyful surprise is newer, in my experience.

In the Maritimes, it was 'Go 'way with you!' or 'G'way whicha!' or just 'Go 'way!' or 'Gway!'. This was clearly an older and more established idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

recently, Get out! has come to mean "I don't believe you."

Whereas "get away!" means "wow, that's surprising".

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM

You're becoming the forum saddo, Nige. Lighten up. We've transmogrified your thread into something potentially pleasant!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM

You matured at 40, Joe? I'm 66 and I'm nowhere being mature, and I LOVE it! When it comes to "cheap," I care not a jot. If I can buy a bottle of cheap wine that tastes good, gimme cheap every time. A rose by any other name...

As for "Americanisms," most of them predate the alleged "British English" versions, and most of them make a damn sight more sense. I have to keep using the illogical British-English spellings and constructions as I'd seem to be a terrible pedant were I not to. I feel like I'm in a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:45 PM

Dictionaries are helpful, but in speech we put words in context.

If my music stand fall apart, I might say it is a cheap piece of junk. Here,the stand is what's cheap.

If I buy a fine guitar for $50, then the guitar was cheap, but it is not a piece of junk. The price, not the guitar, was cheap.
=========
One of the problems of English for learners is that we use simple words to mean many things. Take ""get."

I get this thread - understand it.

I'll get a loaf of bread - obtain it.

To get the flu - be infected

You're gonna get it! - be punished

Get out! - leave

and recently, Get out! has come to mean "I don't believe you."
=========
As for "gotten", if you are not aware that American speech preserves old forms, then you haven't done much reading about the English language.