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BS: amtrak derailment
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Subject: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 18 Dec 17 - 04:36 PM My condolences to families involved in this. Thank God it happened close to Ft. Lewis and there were trained rescuers who jumped into the fray. I don't know enough yet...I travel that route or the old route often. Amtrak is unbelievably incompetent in the simplest matters. There are doors to toilets in the seattle station broken for months. If you can't fix a toilet door can you run a train? Every time I reluctantly take the train it stalls for some reason. it is not well run at all. If you must take Amtrak, count on them running out of food and water, toilets not working etc. Think of it as a camping trip.... I think I am going to cancel my Christmas trip as it is the only reasonable way for me to travel right now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:07 PM That's what happens when all of the Interstate transport money is spent on highways for trucking and cars and none of it to upgrade and maintain the railroads (which would be a much more efficient method of moving goods and people). |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:26 PM i think this is not the normal route. it is a new route that was underused before and was upgraded. this was the first run apparently of direct portland to seattle runs..thought it was just over holidays but maybe not. good thing it was first run because otherwise train would have been just packed. only 78 passengers on this run.... big problem is freight lines having precedence on railways. bottom line is we need dual railways for freight and passenger I think. and i firmly think never ever turn loose of a railroad right of way or remove track for bike paths or whatever. fill in if not needed with something removeable in case a need develops. not sure but i think that is a problem in the everett wa area with its constant mudslides..there was another route possible but no more right of way or i could be wrong on this. anyway, amtrak is run probably equivalent to a corrupt communist committee... |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: keberoxu Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:27 PM The news reports are also saying that, regardless of the quality of the transport, the passenger trains between Seattle and Portland have been under pressure for years to increase their speeds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:37 PM guy from olympia just came to my office. i asked what he knew and he said curve was a 30 mph curve and he heard that on the news. this must be confirmed. he also said the next train would have had hundreds of people on it...78 people on a train is abnormally low in a holiday week..or any time whatsoever.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 18 Dec 17 - 05:44 PM i don't think speeds per se are too much of the problem. problem is constant delays due to flooding, freight trains, checking the tracks, and mostly mudslides. if they could contain the mudslides, and part of it is housing up on top of hillsides, things would be way better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: ripov Date: 18 Dec 17 - 08:21 PM 47? 4'55.32"N 122?40'32.77"W Pasted into google earth search box will take you there. A lot of the news pictures are too close to get an overall idea of the event, but it looks as though the loco came off the track before the bridge, taking half the train with it, and the following coaches jack-knived. My condolences also, to those who have lost family; and sympathy to the train-crew who will never forget what has happened. From a fellow railwayman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Donuel Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:13 AM The engineer survived. So did Bruce Willis |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Rapparee Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:14 AM The news is now reporting that the train was traveling 80 mph in a 30 mph zone. Earlier reports said that there might have been something on the track that shouldn't have been there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:16 AM Yeah, I heard 80 in a 30 zone. Not a crumbling infrastructure issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 19 Dec 17 - 10:22 AM How about a delay in installing scheduled improvements & sefety devices due to huge Republican funding cuts issue? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: DaveRo Date: 19 Dec 17 - 10:28 AM An automatic speed control system, PTC, was mandated on US passenger railways by 2015, but the deadline was postponed until the end of 2018. Link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: leeneia Date: 19 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM "There are doors to toilets in the seattle station broken for months" The station is owned by the city of Seattle. Blame them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: POOP in the yard From: Donuel Date: 19 Dec 17 - 10:49 AM If you live in Puerto Rico without power or water pressure for the next 2 years you don't have working toilets so you poop in the yard. The disaster there was handled very well by Trumpism. Remember only 22 people died in the hurricane? It was over a thousand, but it is called "by natural causes". Hey toss me some paper towels...thanx I hope they fix that door in Seattle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Dec 17 - 11:41 AM This was supposed to be the inaugural run of a high-speed train. Why was there a 30 mile per hour zone on a high-speed track? The United States will not have good rail systems until government officials begin to believe in rail systems. I spent a week in Switzerland last year. Riding the trains was absolutely wonderful. In a place like Switzerland, who needs an automobile? Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 19 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM The United States will not have good rail systems until Don't hold your breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: DaveRo Date: 19 Dec 17 - 12:43 PM I don't think the track was built for high speed. I think it was an old line that had been upgraded. The curve is pretty tight; the photo here shows it well. The train was travelling away from the camera and just went straight on. The loco on the bridge was the rear one. From that picture it looks like the line of the original track might have been diverted when the road was built. But I don't know which was built first. I wonder if drivers have to 'learn' a new route, as they do in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Bonzo3legs Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:49 PM Very sad for those suffering after this dreadful crash. It seems like the USA remains in the railway stone age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 19 Dec 17 - 03:46 PM I know about the city of seattle owning the building. another horrifying piece of the amtrak puzzle. No one seems to really be in charge. Count how many agencies own the trains, the tracks,the buildings...it is a hodgepodge. After complaining several weeks in a row, because i made several trips to seattle in november..i was finally told that the city owns the bathrooms and there is nothing that can be done by them but there is a work order in. Well, get on the phone and insist that it be taken care of, as your functioning toilets are down by 40% (in some cases the door was broken and the toilet was swirling like a ...volcano??? Part of the problem is the staff they have. Portland seems better than Seattle. Seattle will tell you nothing, even if they know where a late train is and what the problem is. Knowing that the train is for sure an hour out, you can perhaps hope to find some food in a food desert neighborhood. Portland at least has food in the station. Seattle has a vending machine. I am dead serious..if you are forced to take Amtrak take food, especially if you have special dietary needs. The train will run out, even between Seattle and Portland. They frequently stop on the tracks, which is good. I would rather be late, and miss my connections, adding about 7 hours and $50 to my trip, than have an accident. Sometimes, not always, they will tell you something on a loudspeaker system that you can barely hear every ten words on. Back to bathrooms. I think they reduced the number of toilets when they remodeled seattle station. Who in their right mind would think that dumping many trains daily with hundreds of people getting off at once..not like a department store where it could be spread out...could have even five functioning toilets...a couple break and you have three...they spent millions of dollars redoing the f...ceiling of that station. It is beautiful but first things first. It is run by people who have no business running it. It is a disgrace to America and it is a public safety issue...you have to have trains you can evacuate people with in times of trouble. Seattle can not be evacuated by highway because of overwhelming traffic. There are waterways that can be used. Again, dress for the outside weather. Take your own portapotty. Your own electricity, and definitely your own food and water. My grandfather, the section master who worked in North Dakota and MOntana and ended up in Tacoma, would be turning over in his grave. Is there no Department of Transportation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Mr Red Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM Gloucester bus station is being re-modeled, so they put in a porta-cabin toilet to replace facilities. Then they locked it, no clue as to where else to go. Then they removed the porta-cabin as the work progressed. Still no clues, but the nearest is at least 1/4 mile away in a department store. Across roads. Signs galore pointing to taxis! Timetables are a joke too. Panels for them at a lot of bus stops, but the information may be on the opposite side of the road despite some information on this side! The city centre has digital displays at many bus stops linked to WiFi enable buses (not yet in the bus station). But the nearby towns don't get them thar buses, and anyway the timetables change on a whim in six weeks. Some whizzkid in London on a spreadsheet can tweak the numbers and save a bus or driver. Then a new kid tweaks. Then........... Those whizzkids don't know the routes and don't use the service, obviously. And they get the latest iPhone every 6 months, so why doesn't everyone use their phone to find out anyway? But some hubris merely results in a rain-soaked customer. Sometimes it gets worse. It is the way it is done, new blood knows best! In my recordings of days gone by, locally, I hear this sad story a few times. History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: FreddyHeadey Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:16 AM Google satellite map https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0801905,-122.6794365,15z/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Dec 17 - 10:10 AM It was high-speed in parts; this was a part they were supposed to slow back down for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: DaveRo Date: 22 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM From wikipedia: "While there is no single standard that applies worldwide, new lines in excess of 250 kilometres per hour (160 miles per hour) and existing lines in excess of 200 kilometres per hour (120 miles per hour) are widely considered to be high-speed, with some extending the definition to include lower speeds in areas for which these speeds still represent significant improvements" To be fair, we don't know what the design speed of this upgraded line is. According to one railway site here in the UK: "The reports are that the train was doing 81, which fits the speed governing at 79mph (with a small delta) which is the maximum for single manning where there isn't PTC (the American train protection system)." PTC is fitted to this line, though not yet in use. The same experts estimate that the overturning speed might be nearly twice the speed limit, to allow for late braking or poor adhesion. So a train going at 50-60mph might not derail. But it depends on all sorts of factors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: robomatic Date: 22 Dec 17 - 10:52 AM Without knowing details, it seems like a poor decision to go ahead with an 'upgrade' to high speed travel without instituting Positive Train Control (PTC). I recall an incident in my own background where a lineup of large switchgears was being put in service, each one of these refrigerator sized units was a multi-thousand volt control for a separate outgoing transmission line. The switchgear lineup was numbered from left to right and the transmission lines each had their own numbers. I noticed that the switchgear numbered six fed transmission line seven and vice versa. Although in theory this was not a problem I had a concern that someday some electrical worker out on line seven would feel that he/she was safe on hearing that switchgear seven was open and get in trouble and I insisted that the lines numbers be exchanged. I've always considered that worker and civilian safety has to be part of plans from the beginning and it doesn't sound like this attitude was carried through here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Dec 17 - 11:40 AM "Failure to plan is planning for failure" |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 22 Dec 17 - 12:41 PM "Failure to fund and then expecting miraculous results is being a Repiblican" |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: robomatic Date: 22 Dec 17 - 02:48 PM A professional is a person whose character is important, because he or she has knowledge and makes decisions on behalf of others who lack that knowledge and easy access to the processes by which they are obtained. These are ideally independent of ideology but are affected by finances. In these cases critical decisions get made that have consequences. There was an interesting legal case here in Alaska some years ago. A man visited someone, leaving his stepson in the car in the driveway. He was in the house longer than he expected to be, and when he came out he found out that the kid had played with the electric window and had closed the window on his own neck and asphixiated himself. The kid's family sued the car maker. My initial thought was that it was a case of either a not bright or too young kid and a negligent step-parent. But on reflection I felt that electric windows were nothing new, and some responsibility did adhere to the automobile design engineers. There are adequate pressure sensors available these days and a substantial history of electric windows. You should be able to count on not being killed by your electric car window. Maybe not in the 1950s when they were new, but certainly in the 1990s and the Zips. The case of the Amtrak derailment sounds like someone let the train run too fast on a section of rail that was speed limited. The technology for controlling this is not new, is well understood, and is in production, and had apparently been installed but not implemented. And these situations have occurred all over the U.S. in the past few years. It wound up in the plot of an episode of the great television series "The Good Wife". I think it's been on 60 Minutes. This does not speak well for American technology nor for the executives who are in charge of route construction in the U.S., especially in comparison to other nations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: mg Date: 22 Dec 17 - 04:10 PM it was like an episode from grey's anatomy. people were thrown out of cars and then pinned by the falling car. fortunately, they looked very flimsy. i wonder how long the engineer and training conductor will be in "medical comas.." Do we know that the engineer was actually the one driving the train? was he/she told to go as fast as possible? this really does not make sense as there are very frequent slow downs and stopping of trains on the regular route. where are the other staff members? I can tell you from riding this route repeatedly that some of the conductors and staff just can not be bothered. We were stuck in lacey a few months ago for hours and they were just in a huddle shooting the breeze...one person who had been going to get off in kelso got right back on the train when she heard of the mudslide so she was good. they usually won't tell you a darn thing although that could be getting better...they really and truly do not seem to care. they do not seem to have a normal sense of responsibility to the easiest things..back to toilet situations. back to telling people in a station they will have to wait two hours. there has been a what seems to me abnormal number of pronouncements about the second distraction person in the cab. i would think second people would be quite the norm. what are they bracing us for? i have many questions. why did it take so long to get cranes there? this is a hugely built up area right next to Ft. Lewis. The trains were dangling from a highway. The drop fortunately was not too high. A simple cherry picker to get photos at least..drive them up, send someone up with a camera. where were all the drones? must be millions in the area...illegal probably but this accident should have used them..perhaps they did. was there an attempt made to somehow secure the dangling trains or cut them loose if it could be done safely...how did everyone get out of the dangling trains? apparently a window was broken out and they were able to climb down onto a smashed truck or other train car. could they get everyone out of those cars? i have been saying for years how incompetent amtrak is. totally dysfunctional operation. get some swiss in here or japanese to run it. or the corrupt communist committee. anything would be better. and google just how many derailments there have been just in the last two years...several involving massive speeding..oh one had undiagnosed severe sleep apnea...how could you have undiagnosed severe sleep apnear? Would not anyone notice? It is a mess. America (by which I mean the united states portion of it) deserves better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Dec 17 - 04:26 PM Failure to make a worthwhile contribution to ANY conversation is being GregtrF. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: ripov Date: 22 Dec 17 - 08:36 PM Robo re your 22 Dec 17 - 10:52 AM Always "test before touch"; check the documentation for the switchout; see for yourself the open breakers and earthing cables. Else - don't do it. So we are taught. And it still can go wrong. So we learn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: robomatic Date: 22 Dec 17 - 09:03 PM ripov: Right you are! And yet I know intelligent journeymen with substantial skin grafts from 'stuff that happened' and have seen with my own eyes how an extremely intelligent engineer tests for voltage with his Simpson (Multimeter) set on 'current' hence no resistance in the test circuit. Safety is built into the Simpson, it has a resistor in the circuit, so, one blown resistor instead of a melted multimeter, and not only that safety built into the device, also a spare resistor. Engineer replaces the resistor, then totally repeats the error and blows the second resistor! So I believe in all the things you say, and multiple levels of protection besides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Mysha Date: 23 Dec 17 - 11:22 PM Hi, Looks like they never built the correct curve because it would have been very expensive. Instead, they had a track segment for 80mph, then 30mph on the next. Going down 50mph on a segment change?? Like driving on a free way straight into a residential area. When I travel by train in The Netherlands, I see the speed limits go down gradually. I don't think I've ever seen a wall like that. The part I don't get is that the engineer only noticed something was wrong seconds before the bend. How do Amtrak train their engineers for their lines? Amtrak? They schedule their cross-country trains so the tourist will see the interesting bits by daylight, and then run 12 hours late (or more) so the tourist doesn't actually get to see them. Yes, I do have the impression their system doesn't work so well. Bye, Mysha |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: DaveRo Date: 24 Dec 17 - 01:51 AM Many (most?) railways in the Netherlands are fitted with ETCS/1 - the European Train Control System - which will control the speed automatically against a 'braking curve'. I expect the American PTC will do that - once it's implemented. It's not a technical problem, it's money and politics. I see that people in the US are saying that PTC is too expensive, and simpler GPS systems could be used. Another reason to delay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: leeneia Date: 25 Dec 17 - 12:40 PM The crash was 7 days ago. I just did a search to see if there is any intelligent info as to the cause, but I only found speculation. All crew members were hospitalized, and the forward camera has been badly damaged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 25 Dec 17 - 04:12 PM Looks like they never built the correct curve because it would have been very expensive. See 22 Dec 17 - 12:41 PM above. Then take up with Republicans the dracgonian cuts to AMTRAK funding over the last 30 years and their refusal to provide adequate funding for infrastructure maintenence for longer than that. (Despite BB's smokescreen...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 25 Dec 17 - 05:54 PM And when Obama had the house and senate? Not one cent for infrastructure Just a net increase of $140,000,000 for the Clinton's slush fund. But that is ok by GregtrF. As long as he gets his cut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 10:23 AM But MOMMIE!! Billy did it TOO!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Dec 17 - 10:29 AM So, as I said, GregtrF is fine with it so long as he profits from it. He blames everyone else for what those he supports have done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 10:48 AM Its obvious to anyone- isn't it, O Bearded One- that Prez. Obama is responsble for the actions of Republicans for 30+ years prior to his presidency as well as what they have done, and will do, after same. Jesus Wept. PS: The "Clinton Slush Fund" is an alt-right wet dream fantasy. But MOMMIE!! Billy did it TOO!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Dec 17 - 11:05 AM So the periods when Dems were in control, and did nothing were just fine, according to GregtrF. When the Republicans were in control, they were supposed to fix all the problems caused by Dems, and if not, get blamed for them. Just so I understand what GregtrF is saying. Any responsible Liberal care to make a comment? What 30 years, Greg? You mean like during the Clinton administration? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 11:46 AM Ho, ho, ho - pretty pointless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Dec 17 - 12:14 PM Yes, your comments certainly are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Dec 17 - 03:32 PM It's amazing what nonsense can be concocted by two mindless ideologues. Merry Christmas, Bruce and Greg. You two deserve each other. Meanwhile, passenger transportation in the U.S. is in sad condition. The government-supported AMTRAK has all sorts of problems. Then again, is our corporate-controlled air transportation any better? Transportation is essential. If we take any ride in ourselves as a nation, we ought to do it right. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Dec 17 - 03:43 PM And GregtrF blames it on an administration that has not had time to have caused the problem, and gives the one that for eight years ignored it a pass. YOU deserve him, Joe, if you think that this is a fair or reasonable look at things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Jeri Date: 26 Dec 17 - 03:43 PM Joe, I was translating it as a food-fight at the kid's table. Otherwise, everything seems to be falling apart these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:33 PM So "Mindless" Joe & Jeri- You agree that the Republicans - the foes of AMTRAK for more than a quarter of a century - have nothing to do with the sad state of rail transport in the U.S.? As well as agreeing with and accepting BB's distortions and fabrications of "fact" and of what I've actually posted?? Interesting. Who is it at the Kid's table, exactly? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Dec 17 - 04:44 PM like I said, Joe, he is on YOUR side... |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 06:02 PM Hey, Joe, where ya goin with that.......... Well, never mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Dec 17 - 07:34 PM That food in my hand???? Yeah, food fight just about sums it up. Whatever the case, AMTRAK has been a poor orphan child ever since it was founded in 1971, in an attempt by the Nixon Administration to save the dying passenger railroad business in the U.S. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have given it adequate funding or support, although Members of Congress from both parties have mined it for pork barrel projects. Both sides would kill rail transportation in a minute if they could get away with it. For rail transportation to be a success in the U.S., people have to believe in it - and too few Americans have any concern for passenger rail. They'll miss it when it's gone. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 26 Dec 17 - 08:05 PM Joe, its already gone. And Republican long-term ideology & intransigence is the major cause. The U.S. people are too busy believing in Trump and Republican "tax reform" etc. to believe in anything factual or useful. And I wasn't talkin' about FOOD in your hand..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Dec 17 - 01:01 PM Believe it or not, Greg, some things are not simply matters of mindless partisanship. As with many things, this is not a matter of "us" (good guys) and "them" (bad guys), and it can't be solved by partisan ideology. Decisions need to be made to benefit the entire nation, not just one side or the other. AMTRAK was founded during the Republican Nixon Administration...and has struggled under the neglect and pork-barrel wastefulness of both parties ever since. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Dec 17 - 01:15 PM BTW, what 30 years are you talking about, GregtrF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses When you are living a life of lies, it must be hard to bother looking at the facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Dec 17 - 01:27 PM And for Washington state, where the accident occurred, and where the track was being maintained and "improved": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_Washington_(state) So tell me why the automatic braking system had not been implemented. Can't be the Republicans, it was due to be completed BEFORE Trump took office. Joe, your assessment is accurate, but I will not allow GregtrF's lies to continue unanswered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Dec 17 - 01:46 PM To make it easy for GregtrF to understand, since 1987 ( 30 years ago) the Rep. have had control of both houses for 6 terms. The Dems have had control of both houses for 6 terms. Control was split for 3 terms. So what FUCKING 30 years of Rep control are you talking about??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: DaveRo Date: 27 Dec 17 - 02:54 PM This thread discusses the accident: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/72009-derailment-of-cascades-501-dupont-wa-2017-12-18/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Dec 17 - 03:35 PM OK, Bruce, but don't go on a feeding frenzy... Funding of AMTRAK is an issue that we in the middle need to come to an agreement on, because it's something the country really needs. We've been stymied by the extremes for far too long. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 27 Dec 17 - 06:48 PM Greg, some things are not simply matters of mindless partisanship. Ya Think, Joe? Bugger off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: leeneia Date: 28 Dec 17 - 11:32 AM Greg, you have been using the Mudcat as an outlet for crabbiness for a long time. Have you made a monetary contribution for this year? |
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Subject: RE: BS: amtrak derailment From: Greg F. Date: 28 Dec 17 - 05:42 PM Yes. |
