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BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?

Jackaroodave 07 Jan 18 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 07:16 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 07:19 AM
Mr Red 07 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM
Jackaroodave 07 Jan 18 - 07:40 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM
Greg F. 07 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM
Senoufou 07 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM
Donuel 07 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM
Greg F. 07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 02:02 PM
Bonzo3legs 07 Jan 18 - 05:05 PM
Iains 07 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Jan 18 - 02:53 AM
Mr Red 08 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM
Senoufou 08 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM
Ebbie 08 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM
Iains 08 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM
Raggytash 08 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM
Greg F. 08 Jan 18 - 09:40 AM
Senoufou 08 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM
Raggytash 08 Jan 18 - 10:01 AM
Senoufou 08 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM
Greg F. 08 Jan 18 - 10:44 AM
Jackaroodave 08 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM
Iains 08 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM
Raggytash 08 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM
Jackaroodave 08 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Jan 18 - 03:33 PM
Iains 08 Jan 18 - 04:10 PM
Jackaroodave 08 Jan 18 - 04:52 PM
Iains 08 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM
Jackaroodave 08 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jan 18 - 07:49 PM
Bonzo3legs 09 Jan 18 - 02:49 AM
Jackaroodave 09 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM
Iains 09 Jan 18 - 03:54 AM
Jackaroodave 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM
Senoufou 09 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 06:54 AM

Is ANYONE here advocating a one-size-fits-all solution? Raise your hand and say "Duh."

The point I tried to make before is that multifaceted solutions are much easier to implement if the funding for them is there: Hospitals, for example, care for people who need emergency treatment, outpatient treatment, intensive care, acute medical and surgical treatment; care for catatonic schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, quadriplegia, ALS, AIDS, drug and alcohol addictions, and so forth.

If they fall short in treating a certain problem--for example, inadequate Suboxone treatment for opioid addiction, as in Morgantown, WV--it's not because the problem is an awkward fit with the others or a conceptual challenge; it's because there isn't enough money to cope with the burgeoning problem.

Similarly, with adequate funding the NIMBY problem would shrink, as it would be unnecessary to warehouse people in shelters where they have a large impact on neighborhoods.

It's true that due to inadequate treatment and unbelievably stressful conditions, homeless people suffer more from both physical and psychological problems, which in turn make them more vulnerable to homelessness. However, when I was a nurses' assistant, I worked with upper middle class people who also suffered from acute psychological problems. Their misery and their families' were heartbreaking, but they were not helpless on the street, not suffering from malnutrition, not in danger of freezing to death, not liable to addiction or contracting HIV.

No one here does, but others do stigmatize the homeless by characterizing them as mentally ill the one hand, or homeless by choice on the other. Is a boy who runs away from a home where he is repeatedly raped homeless by choice? Is a woman who will not stay at a shelter because she fears assault? A man who prefers to sleep rough lest he lose his shopping cart that carries all he owns? Or another who won't go to the shelter because he is afraid people there will control his mind? Just like hospital patients, students, or old people, homeless people have a variety of needs that cannot be met adequately without adequate funding. If society meets its obligations to its most vulnerable members, intelligence and respect for each as a human being can deal with the varieties of suffering that afflict homeless people. If not, I am afraid, not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM

"Jim why do you always pick up the wrong end of the stick."
You have just put up three links to mental health problems and you have yet to comment on the fact that the major cause of the problem was when houses weer turned into investments and placed out of reach of a large portion of the British people - what other stick is there to grasp
You hung your colours to the mast on homelessness when you dismissed the idea that survivors of the Grenfell fire should not be housed in local vacant buildings - property before people every time.
"It is a social problem and a question of what society is prepared to tolerate"
When Goldman Sachs starts burying up rented property and evicting the tenants as they are now doing in Ireland, it becomes an international problem
Dave
I agree with you entirely about some not being able to afford 'affordable homes' but the first step has to be to make a roof over your head a right rather than a privelege
That was what the post war Labour Government had in mind when they established council housing, and that is what Mad Maggie destroyed when she respectabalised greed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:16 AM

To a thoroughly decent charity minded egg like Prince Harry, the idea of sweeping the Windsor streets clean of the homeless would be totally against his principles, just because folks in jags look better on television than folks in rags - not hos style at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:19 AM

Hos style - his style of course!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM

others are addicts

homelessness may not be a choice but, for me, addiction is and I chose not. I chose not on many chemical fronts, and my resolve didn't waver despite a few dramas.

It does make me feel good because I can afford to stay in a house. True, I use the bus a lot, and steward at many Folk Festivals rather than buy tickets.

I'm sorry if it offends people but most addictions start from a position of hubris. And there is a cost for that.

The last time I gave to a beggar ( Xmas spirit and all that) was a coin I found minutes earlier. I also made her smile on the fact. I give in more ways.

FWIW an addict has to want to kick the demon, otherwise they are doomed. I volunteered in a community radio that allowed recovering addicts (and others) to make programmes. Made some friends, but they all told the same story - they are shit scared of lapsing, and are not complimentary of those that lapse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:40 AM

Iains, Jim did not say that the homeless were free from mental illness; exactly the contrary. What he did say was as you quoted, "Presenting homelessness as a psychiatric condition really is as low as it gets."

He echoes Cheryl Harkins, homeless in Portland Maine for 7 years and now an advocate with Homeless Voices for Justice: "Homelessness is not a disease, it's a crime against the disadvantaged." And George Batten, Executive Director of West Virginia's Rescue Ministries, "Homelessness is not a disease. In fact it is not contagious. Homelessness can be based in economics." (This was interesting to me, as Portland is my home town and West Virginia my adopted state.)

Oh, and homeless people as criminals and cannibals: They are much more likely to be the victims of crime and cannibalism than the perpetrators. Rather than protect the homeful from the homeless, it would make more sense to protect the latter from the former.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM

I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person as we did last year. We gave a temporary home to a beautiful border collie cross that was rescued in Romania, paid for injections, dog passport and transport to the UK, and when arrived here paid considerable vets' (plural) fees for necessary medical treatment to deal with dehydration and more importantly Campylobacter virus. She then had to be spayed.

We eventually found the right forever home for her in the country with children, daily contact with other dogs and people who could give her 2-3 hours exercise every day.

We miss her greatly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM

So sad that little Tiara felt she had to fight for her food when she came to us, as she had had to fight for it before with a lot of other shelter dogs. Even after she had been fed she wanted to fight for our food as well, as if she was afraid that she wouldn’t get fed again. This is what shelter puppies go through and one just has to understand. She is fine now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM

I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person...


Now THERE'S your problem in a nutshell!

When did animals gain more "rights"and become more worthy of compassion than humans?

Sick world we live in, innit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM

I find this all very interesting and it gives me much cause for thought.
As I see it, there is Suffering around us. It can be human beings, animals, and even trees, plants etc. One can be sensitive to it all and feel sad and deeply affected (or not).

The second part of the equation is 'What Can Be Done?'
This divides into two parts :- What can Those In Authority Do?'
and 'What Can I Personally Do?'

Some people are totally immune to Suffering, and either don't notice it or completely ignore it.
Some feel that 'Nothing Should Be Done' ('they brought it on themselves', 'they don't deserve help' etc.)
Those in Authority may say 'There's not enough money available', 'It's not our problem' etc.
An individual may think 'My family need my resources, no-one else'.
Or 'They look dodgy, I don't want to get involved'.

OR:-
Governments can be determined to address things, set aside far more financial coverage and call in experts, people experienced in the field etc. and really do as much as possible to make things better.

And an individual can, as some on here have already said, do small things in a spirit of kindness and understanding, show compassion and fellow-feeling, determine not to think badly of those who have fallen by the wayside (never mind how smelly, scruffy, drunk, weird, dodgy), and donate whatever they can afford, no matter how small, to Charitable Organisations who know how to act.
It all boils down to mindset, and my two great mentors, Wisdom and Kindness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM

Well Mr GregF it simply depends on your point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

I am on Joe's side. it's clear he actually knows these folks who are homeless from consequence or by choice. However he has probably not been one yet. We are all one fire away from homelessness in the short run.
Virtually everyone who has posted here have profound humane attitudes toward the homeless.

My interaction with the homeless runs the full spectrum of providing food and shelter to not giving a cent. People who advocate politics of the mean and cruel are blind to their own future. The social contract to care for on another is lost on them. Curing their blindness takes a lifetime in some cases and for some of the most wealthy, forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

"I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person..."
This says it all fro me
Jim Carroll
We don't pretend we're perfect but we have endearing features,
We're honest and we're always kind to God's four-footed creatures;
Dogs and horses, hamsters, rabbits, little furry things -
Lousy Europeans can't appreciate the pleasure that a little kindness brings.
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When Greeks were being tortured then we always held our peace,
We used to like to spend our summer holidays in Greece;
Cats and ponies, budgies, moths and hairy caterpillars -
Lousy Europeans can't appreciate the pleasure that these little creatures give us,
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When there's hangings in South Africa we just avert our gaze,
But we're tender-hearted to a fault with alley cats and strays;
Remember how the nation nearly had a nervous spasm,
Breathlessly anticipating giant panda's pleasure in a cuddly orgasm,
We're a nation of animal lovers.

When there's rioting in Brixton we're impressively impassive,
But be cruel to a horse and our reaction then is massive;
Guinea pigs and painted terrapin, tropical fishes -
¤ Lesser races cannot understand the simple fact that it would meet with all our wishes
If there were no human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM

it simply depends on your point of view.

Hardly, Bonz- that's nonsense, and dangerous nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM

And your point is Jim Carroll????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 02:02 PM

"And your point is Jim Carroll"
Get someone to explain it to you Bozo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:05 PM

dum de dum de dum de dum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM

"That was what the post war Labour Government had in mind when they established council housing, and that is what Mad Maggie destroyed when she respectabalised greed"
Labour initiated the sale of social housing and The official data shows that the Blair and Brown governments built 7,870 council houses (local authority tenure) over the course of 13 years. (If we don't include 2010 - the year when David Cameron became PM - this number drops to 6,510.) Contrast this figure with the record of Mrs Thatcher's government, which never built fewer than 17,710 homes in a year. In 1985, 61pc of UK households were occupied by home owners. Thirty years on, that figure is the same at 61pc. For the sake of historical accuracy it was actually the coalition government(with a huge conservative majority)that passed the The Housing, Town Planning, &c. Act 1919 It was also known as the Addison Act after Minister of Health, Dr Christopher Addison, the-then Minister for Housing. The Act was passed to allow the building of new houses after the First World War,] and marked the start of a long twentieth century tradition of state-owned housing, which would much later evolve into council estates. Nothing to do with the labour party at all. They did not even figure in the coalition government that passed the originating act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:53 AM

Absolutely Iains!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

When did animals gain more "rights"and become more worthy of compassion than humans?

Personal choice. But it has to be said, a dog gives back and constantly.

We don't always know how our offerings to beggars is received. Or what used fro (sic). A thankyou (hopefully given) is fleeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM

Just wanted to say to Bonzo:-
I think your compassion and commitment to Tiara were superb, and God bless you for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM

Juneau, Alaska, has its share of homeless people; we have two shelters approximately 12 miles apart (Juneau is a narrow but l o n g town). The shelter near where I live is on a downtown street, close to bars, restaurants and tourist shops. The shelter serves three meals a day and can sleep something like 50 people (10 or so in a separate dormitory for women). The thing is that one has to pass a breathalizer test before one is allowed to go upstairs to bed. If over the limit, out you go. Many of those evicted look for any out of the way for a spot to sleep. Many of the proprietors attend town assembly meetings and demand that something be done to keep the homeless from sleeping in their doorways and alleys. Obviously, they have a point but that doesn't help those without beds.

It has been proposed by some people that the shelter should be moved to the vicinity near our hospital about five miles away. One problem with that is that the homeless wouldn't stay there- what serves as their social life is downtown. Another problem to my mind is that if they were trucked out of downtown, we townspeople would likely forget that we have the problem. Visible as they are now we are reminded constantly that we have to seek solutions.

One recent innovation is a hopeful one. An agency donated land and a building that houses 25 or so people was put up on it. The idea is to identify those who have drinking or other addictions but who are willing to pursue other options, give them a home while they are still using and through counseling and 'socialization' on a one to one basis try to turn lives around.

One other thing that appears to be working quite well is to pursue those on the streets who are willing to live in apartments, put them on Medicaid, give them a stipend and move them off the street that way. A number of them are living in the same complex where I live and mostly, it works. A few of them do eventually get evicted, mostly for the same reason that was outlined above: bringing in their 'mates' from the streets resulting in the occasional drunken party or brawl. But by and large it works.

On a personal note, when I lived up the street from the shelter and frequently walked my dog past it I felt safer because of the homeless men. They kept an eye out for me- if I walked in a different direction for a couple of days they worried that something had happened to me or my dog. I have no doubt whatever that they would have come to my aid if anyone had hassled or assaulted me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

Whatever Blair called himself, was a Tory in Labour drag - it's waht you do not what you call yourself that identify yourself
Thatcher's 'Ringt to Buy' scheme destroyed social housing in Britain well before Blair raised his ugly head
The post war Labour Government introduced National Health, Housing and nationalisation schemes into Britain and gave working people a voice in their own lives despite much bitter opposition from the Tories - those scemes virtually rebuilt Britain after the war.
That has been all but destroyed by Toriy Govenments with the help (or indifference) of the Labour right wing.
Go count the hospital beds or the shipyards Britain has no loger got - (or industry in genera for that matter)
Britain's greatest import today (30 odd percent of it) is money, benefiting only those directly involved in finance.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

" those scemes virtually rebuilt Britain after the war."

I think you will find the Irish made a massive contribution to rebuilding Britain after the war. Macalpine's Fusiliers may just be a song but it encapsulated an underlying reality.
" A wave of emigration to England took place between the 1930s, and 1960s by Irish escaping poor economic conditions following the establishment of the Irish Free State. This was furthered by the severe labour shortage in Britain during the mid-20th century, which depended largely on Irish immigrants to work in the areas of construction and domestic labour. The extent of the Irish contribution to Britain's construction industry in the 20th century may be gauged from Sir William MacAlpine's 1998 assertion that the contribution of the Irish to the success of his industry had been 'immeasurable'."
"he late 1940s and the 1950s constituted a remarkable era of mass emigration. Over 500,000 people left independent Ireland between 1945 and 1960 and it is estimated 75% came to the UK."


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM

"the Irish made a massive contribution to rebuilding Britain after the war. Mcalpine's Fusiliers may just be a song but it encapsulated an underlying reality."
Not sure what relevance this has to the discussion Iaians
I know all about the Fusiliers - my old man was one of them thanks to the British Government's attempts to appease Hitler
The immigrants, who had a perfect right to seek work in England due to the fact that the Empire had raped and plundered their home countries for many centuries, largely took on work the indigenous population did not want and were persecuted abominably for doing so, right up to Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' scum
McAlpine, Laing, McAdam.... and all the rest were hardly the benefactors you choose you paint them - they made their fortunes exploiting the Irish by imposing abominable conditions of work on them - you should read the documentary writings of a one-time contributor to this forum, Ultan Cowley, whose 'The Men Who Built Britain' exposes the animal-like conditions of Irish labour.
None of this is new, of course; from the mid nineteenth century onwards, British mine-owners were using the plight of Irish refugees fleeing the effects of a mismanaged (possibly deliberately) by Britain famine to drive down the wages of indigenous workers
The result was starvation level conditions imposed on both the working Irish and the pittance paid to the English miners
The side effect was an inbuilt racism towards the Irish that is still apparent
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM

Iains, could you do everyone a favour and add a link to things you quote. I'm not saying you have done so, but some posters have been known to use VERY selective cut and pastes. If you provide a link then people can read the entire article if they wish.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:23 AM

Easy enough to trace it yourself Dave
R=The top bit came from Wiki - the bottom from dictionary.com
Surprisingly, not from Guido Fawkes of a neo fascist site - this time!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 09:40 AM

I think your compassion and commitment to Tiara were superb

Whoopee. Hot damn. Now go do the same for a human being.

Or would you recommend just euthanizing the homeless, rather like stray animals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

Don't be such a goady prick Greg F.
I would have thought my posts on this thread indicate (to anyone with half a brain cell) that I am a compassionate person, and that goes for human beings, animals and wildlife.
Compassion isn't rationed out. One can be kind and help anyone/anything in need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

I think (hope) that Greg has Bozo's streak of inhumanity towards the less well of rather than the fate of defenceless animals Sen - not the greatest humanitarian in the world as he has made obvious regularly
Behave yourself Greg !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 10:01 AM

Senoufou I rather think Greg was referring to "I would far rather give to a homeless dog than a homeless person..."

A statement that I too thought was odious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM

Well it was my sentence he put at the top of his post. He was objecting to my praise of Bonzo's kindness to Tiara.
And one can object to anything on here, but why in such a sneering and goady tone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 10:44 AM

Thank, you, Raggy.

He was objecting to my praise of Bonzo's kindness to Tiara.

No, Sen, I was objecting to your tacit fulsome praise of Bozo's odious statement.

Greg has Bozo's streak of inhumanity towards the less well off

Hunh?? Where the hell do you get THAT from, Jim? I just don't think that humans are at least any less worthy of kindness than animals. Of course, there are those whose warm, fuzzy feelings gained from "saving" animals allows them to ignore human suffering and death.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM

As a relative newcomer here, I'm going to wade into these murky waters with trepidation, but here goes:

I hope Bonzo will correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt very much that the outlay for Tiara depleted any joint human-canine homeless fund, thereby reducing aid to people in dire need. I doubt that Bonzo's preference came as a surprise to anyone, and I feel it aids our understanding to have it out there explicitly.

Homeless people don't come from Planet Sainthood, any more than the rest of us do, and it would be dehumanizing to expect someone in great physical or mental pain and stress to slobber in gratitude over some casual, partial, and temporary alleviation of their suffering. So it's quite understandable that people whose help for others is linked to the expectation of gratitude would prefer to help a creature whose undying devotion can be acquired by placing a bowl of kibble on the floor.

That said, there is plenty of suffering in this world to go around, and anything anyone does to reduce it is worth what it merits, without comparisons. (I'm not crazy about nourishing obligatory carnivores, myself, but that's just me.) If someone's priorities are "odious," well, they are out there and characterize their owner perhaps more eloquently than any criticism can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM

"from the mid nineteenth century onwards, British mine-owners were using the plight of Irish refugees fleeing the effects of a mismanaged (possibly deliberately) by Britain famine to drive down the wages of indigenous workers
The result was starvation level conditions imposed on both the working Irish and the pittance paid to the English miners
The side effect was an inbuilt racism towards the Irish that is still apparent"

3 statements here without a shred of evidence to back it up:

1) A smear that Britain deliberately mismanaged famine relief to drive down the wages of British workers.
2)Starvation level conditions imposed on Irish workers and miners.
3)A side effect that their is an inbuilt racism towards the irish that is still apparent.
This is a very dangerous pack of lies you are guilty of spreading.
What on earth do you use as a source for your mischief making? The life and times of vlad the impaler?
I think you have the wrong forum for the shit you post!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

Iains your points have been discussed, at length, on numerous threads. If you wish to know more there are a myriad of books I could recommend that might make you more aware of the situation in Ireland in the 19th century. I'm out at the moment but if you send me a PM I will respond with the titles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM

"3 statements here without a shred of evidence to back it up:"#
Are you serious?
Two years ago there was an avalance of information that emerged from the famine and its aftermath - all these points were argued to death on this forum
The details of the Irish being being used as strikebreakers in order to push down indigenous wages and conditions was used beautifully in Elizabeth Gaskell's classic novel, 'North And South'
The use of the famine to 'solve the Irish Question' was revealed when Government representative in charge of feeding the victims, Sir Charles Trevelyan's letter describing the Famine as "god's punishment of the Irish fro their indolent nature - published in full in Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot
Racism toward the Irish has been a fact since Punch Magazines racist cartoons depicting them as subhuman monsters - right through to racist comedians like Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson
One of the most vicious racist of all the writers of the time was children's author, Charles Kingsley (of The Water Babies fame)
A wonderful thumbnail history of anti Irish racism (with illustrated examples) is to be found in Liz Curtis's ' Nothing Bu The Same old Story (with glorious illustrations)
What planet do you occupy
Try this for size
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM

Honestly, Iains, we're talking about the 19th Century, the age of Gobineau, Morton, Linnaeus, Agassiz, etc. etc., the flourishing of scientific racism, eugenics, and not coincidentally, of Euro-American imperialism. It seems to me absolutely fair, given the well-attested academic background, to begin with a default assumption of general, deeply held, racist ideology and assign the burden of proof to those who would dispute it in particular areas. As an American, I've been aware of my nation's racist and genocidal history since childhood, but frankly, the more I look into it, the worse it gets.

If you check out the Wikipedia article on Scientific Racism , you'll find an interesting illustration demonstrating the Irishman's kinship with the Negroid race, in contrast to the pure Teutonic features of the Englishman.

It's worse than you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:33 PM

Thank you Senoufou for your very kind comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:10 PM

Interesting you use novels to back up your assertions. I suggest you add Hans Christian Andersen's collected works to your list!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 04:52 PM

"Interesting you use novels to back up your assertions. I suggest you add Hans Christian Andersen's collected works to your list!"

Gobineau, Morton, Linnaeus, and Agassiz weren't novelists, although they created the fictional explanation of racial differences called polygenism--that the races were descended from different, unequal, and unrelated origins.

Neither was "John Beddoe, who later became the President of the Anthropological Institute (1889-1891), [who] wrote in his Races of Britain (1862) that all men of genius were orthognathous (less prominent jaw bones) while the Irish and the Welsh were prognathous and that the Celt was closely related to Cromagnon man, who, in turn, was linked, according to Beddoe, to the 'Africanoid'."--Anthony Wohl, Racism and Anti-Irish Prejudice in Victorian England.

Disraeli, of course WAS a novelist, but he could have put his literary imagination to better use than to write

"[The Irish] hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry. Their history describes an unbroken circle of bigotry and blood."
Wikipedia: Anti-Irish Sentiment


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:24 PM

Very dangerous to use wikipedia as a font of all knowledge. It can lead a person to believe it explains everything. IT DOES NOT!

I am not going to argue the causes and cure of the famine here. You will all believe what you want to believe. My take is that the crisis was woefully mismanaged but the fatalities were not a result of DELIBERATE government policy.
I have found nothing to support the idea that Irish labour was imported to drive down miners wages. What time period are we discussing? Elizabethan, Victorian, WW1,WW2, postwar. I suspect another figment of your imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM

"Very dangerous to use wikipedia as a font of all knowledge. It can lead a person to believe it explains everything. IT DOES NOT!"

Please, Iains, you're not going to claim that the 19th Century was NOT the age of scientific racism, or that the figures I mentioned were not among its leading theorists, or that Disraeli did not write what I quoted, are you? Really?

Beddoe, the chief English ideologue, comes from another source anyway.

I'd say that if there's prima facie evidence that the dominant ideology portrayed a class as sub-human, and it suffered horribly, then if you want to defend its treatment by a governing class that openly despised them, it's your turn to amass some evidence yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 07:49 PM

Well I send Jimmy Wales ten quid a year in gratitude for Wikipedia. The thing is, you really ought to read it as you should read even the best newspapers, with a critical eye and a sceptical brain, and anything dodgy can be cross-checked elsewhere anyway. If you want to look at sources that are full of faults and shortcomings, just look at the much-vaunted Encyclopaedia Britannica or Grove's Dictionary of Music. They're riddled. Interesting that the person above who is casting aspersions on wiki has a serial penchant for quoting from the Daily Mail and Guido Fawkes. As you yanks might say, go figure. Actually, it doesn't take much figuring at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 02:49 AM

We are shortlisting for our next homeless dog fostering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM

Interesting that the Britannica should come into this conversation. One of my "sources" for my claim that 19th Century racism was "worse than you think" is a phone conversation with my brother about Bunk by Kevin Young . Young argues that the hoax is the dialect of racist discourse--from Barnum's fraudulent exhibits to Samuel Morton's falsification of his cranial measurement data, to Breitbart's and Trump's contemporary disinformation campaigns.

En route, Young mentions a couple of scientific racist lectures given in Philadelphia by the revered Harvard biology professor, Louis Agassiz. My brother looked up Agassiz in our family Britannica ca. 1954, and found the lectures were actually mentioned, but nothing about their racist content. Nor does the 1954 Encyclopedia of Record even have an article about racism.

What has all this and these last half-dozen or so exchanges to do with homelessness? Quite a lot: Even now, in the US, the discussion of homelessness is polluted by xenophobic myths and memes about the unwashed alien hordes ripping off our welfare resources and undermining our labor markets--like Falstaff, not only homeless in themselves, but a cause of homelessness in others. This is only one aspect of the portrayal of homelessness as a disease, a plague, rather than a logical, foreseeable consequence of policy. And of course you have your violent cannibal rapists to worry about too.

This discourse does not just fall from the air. It is worth investigating where it originates, what is its history, and who benefits from it. Why do we have a ready-made vocabulary to hand for us to think and talk of the poorest of the poor as alien, dangerous, and barely human?


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 03:54 AM

So the twerp shaw insists that anything quoted by guido or the wail is false news. What a fool!


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM

"So the twerp shaw insists that anything quoted by guido or the wail is false news. What a fool!"

I feel like I've wandered into a Monty Python sketch. "Argument clinic is two doors down. This is Abuse."


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 04:42 AM

At the risk of making poor old Greg foam at the mouth, I'm thrilled Bonzo, and hope you get your next 'candidate' very soon. Keep us posted!

Attitudes to that nebulous group termed The Homeless have certainly changed over the centuries. The more usual homeless were what we used to call 'tramps', who due to the laws against Vagrancy, had to tramp from one place of refuge to another to obtain temporary lodging. If they sat in the street they were 'moved on' or even arrested. I'm old enough to remember many of these Gentlemen of the Road (early fifties, just after the War) and they were often given food, a little money and old but serviceable overcoats etc by our parents.

We also had Gypsies in real horse-drawn painted caravans coming through our area, and these also were treated with kindness. I remember my mother (who was Irish) giving the women some children's clothes, ex-army blankets and food, and having a good old natter as well.

Nowadays, there seems to be a growing fury at these unfortunate folk by some unfeeling people. They're 'bloody immigrants', 'wasters', 'druggies' etc and 'a drain on our resources'. I've heard they get spat on and kicked. Arguments spring up as to how and why they have no home.
And also people see helping them as an 'either or', when there are so many worthy causes to try and support.
I keep banging on about compassion and kindness on here (and elsewhere)
If one keeps alight in one's heart a spirit of love for one's fellow man and a sensitivity to suffering, one will try to do what one can, and not question the eligibility on the part of the recipients.
Some may specialise in helping animals, the Third World, the old, those in prison. No one group has priority over another, and no-one can be doing everything for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Homelessness a Personal Choice?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM

Ignore him when he's in that mode, Jackaroodave. Responding to stuff like that just drags the place down even more.


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