BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

"mindless ideologues"
No need to ask which side you are on Joe
How can support of a people under seige be a "mindless ideology"
After a decade of blockade and a series of brutal military incursions Gaza is on the point of collapse
Yet you say that we should visit the homeland of the perpetrators because we "might like it"
You have yet to acknowledge a single example of what is going on in the area - you should be ashamed of yourself, yet you continue to hurl abuse against those of us who see Israel for what it has become
In your defence, yu do come from a church that has a history of siding with the powerful rather than the oppressed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM

Well I for one enjoyed that "anodyne" first post and I read into it that Joe was definitely not intending to start yet another tedious Israel hate-fest. I'm not joining in with that. Why can't you give an account of your holiday along with hundreds of photos without getting a bollocking for it, just because it was Israel you went to?   I'm getting sorely pissed off by the fact that you can't mention Israel round here without it automatically turning into yet another depressing flame war, and in the past I've been as guilty as anyone else (though not as extreme as some and I can prove that). There seems to be a false polarisation going on here. The real trolls who didn't hesitate to whip this up must be laughing their heads off. Anyway, Joe, to get back to anodynenessitudinousness, a plunge into our sea pool may well take your breath away but you'll feel one of two things for the rest of the day, either great or dead. It's three miles from my house along a glorious stretch of coast path. I'm a long-time member of the Friends Of Bude Sea Pool, though I've never been in (I only ever paddle). The buggers have put my membership fee up by five quid this year. Now THAT'S something worth getting aerated about.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

This is very important, so despite the efforts of mindless ideologues to silence me, let me say it.

The United Nations supports a two-state solution to the situation in Israel, but the conservatives in Israel and their U.S. supporters have done their best to thwart that - and the rest of the world has sat back and protested, and nothing has been resolved.

But the Palestinian people aren't waiting. They are going ahead and building a second state, whether the Israelis like it or not, and they have succeeded in building a very credible nation for themselves. They haven't resolved all the problems yet, but it sure looks like they are doing things right. I see a lot of hope for the Nation of Palestine.

Palestine has become a force to be reckoned with. This is the main thing that I have been trying to explain, and I think that it is not widely known how much progress Palestine has been making. To my mind, it is truly remarkable.

Now, why is it that Jim Carroll objects to my saying this? I thought that this is exactly the goal that he is seeking. Somebody, please explain this to me.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM

OK, Jim, I was talking about PALESTINE. Do you know about Palestine? It's a nation where Arab peoples have lived for centuries. Israel conquered it in 1967, but the PALESTINIAN people have held firm and are finally beginning to show signs of success.

Although I visited Israel and found it to be beautiful, I did not have any chance this time to interact with Jewish Israelis. The people I had contact with were ARAB people, and I learned a lot from them.
ARAB Palestinians, and ARAB Israelis. Do you know about them? They are very admirable people.

In other words, Jim, get your head out of your ass. I don't see where there's anything I've said in this thread that you can disagree with. I agree with everything you say, except for your condemnation of me for thinking more-or-less the same way you're thinking. Do you condemn me for supporting the nation of Palestine?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:16 AM

"All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place."
The discussion, which you started, is not about the beauty of Israel, and you well know with your insulting behavior towards those who criticise the Israeli regime
Your anodyne presentation of your visit and your refusal to respond to what is actually happening to the Palestinian people indicates which side you have taken
As the joke said, your eye test may say that you are unfir for service but your prick is pointing strait to West Point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM

I don't defend the conduct of the Israelis, Jim; and you will not find one word of defense from me in this entire thread. All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place. I have tried my best to honestly report my experiences in Israel and Palestine, and I have tried to present what I saw without analysis.

But despite what the Israelis are trying to do, the Palestinians are making great progress in their efforts to build themselves a nation. I have lavished praise on what I saw of the people and government of Palestine. I did not comment much about the Israeli government because I did not really have a chance to observe it this time. My contact was almost exclusively with Arabs, and I was very favorably impressed.

Can you get that through your thick skull?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM

"So, Jim and Greg, the specific points you wish to make are.....????"
You've had them over and over again Joe and you have responded to none of them
The Israeli regime is ETHNICALLY CLEANSING the Palestinian people out of territory they have occupied for thousands of years using methods that are regarded all over the planet as war crimes
You are defending that behaviour on the basis on one visit and are choosing to ignore documented evidence
In doing to, you are siding with two of the most vicious hate-filled trolls on this forum.
Enjoy your dinner party - take a long spoon
If we are bigots, so are all the decent people of this planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:01 PM

The beer? Moderately good, but not extraordinary. Much easier to get cold beer in Israel and Palestine, than it is in Egypt. Middle Eastern beer is light, so it really needs to be cold.

But in Luxor, we toured until it got hot, then had the hotel restaurant to ourselves for wonderful concoctions in clay pots. We had to talk them into making the beer a bit colder, but then it was a trip to heaven....

It felt a little decadent to go to the Winter Palace Hotel in Luxor for tea, but we had to do it. Most of the time, we enjoyed our very Egyptian hotel on the other side of the Nile, and took the ferry across for 20 cents a trip. I didn't find a decadent expat hotel in Jerusalem. I have to go back and look a little harder. I think the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem might do the trick. The King David Hotel is a little beyond my imagination (and pocketbook, even if just for tea). I got kicked out of the Ritz in Paris in disgrace and not really knowing why, so I'm a little nervous about going into places that are beyond my class.

And hey, I found a great place for beer and pizza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem. That's more my style.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:43 PM

How is the beer there, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:26 PM

I'll take the beer, Steve. I'm geting too old for bracing dives into the sea....

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM

We have a very special sea pool in Bude, Joe. Google that! It has a beautiful view and there's great beer close by, but I can't promise you Dead Sea temperatures...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:45 PM

I decided to drink beer instead of swimming in the Dead Sea this time. The last time, I dove in. As I was in midair, our tour guide shouted, "Joe, don't!" But I did. It's too late to turn back when you're midair in a dive. When I hit the water, everything stung - my eyes, my ears, my lips, every little cut, and every place where I had shaved. As a matter of fact, I've grown a beard ever since and shave just my neck. Luckily, there were freshwater showers on the beach. I went back into the water again, but kept my head above water. I found I could raise my arms and feet out of the water, too. The water felt slimy to me, but I guess that was chemicals because I don't think any slime can live in the Dead Sea. That was 1999. In 2017, I had no desire to go back into the waters of the Dead Sea. But the beer was good.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM

In spite of the valiant efforts of one or two people, this thread, which rapidly lurched away from its original intent, has turned into a hate-fest. It ain't right. No balance.

Anyway, I did enjoy those photos a lot and I've put the country on my bucket list. I'll need to stick a lot more two-pound coins in the piggy bank first as we've had to buy seven new windows this winter...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

Pathetic.

Good night Joe.

Get well soon.

Greg F, HABA
(Hateful Asshole Bigots of America.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:42 PM

The Palestinian soldiers were much friendlier and more talkative and relaxed.

Do you think that might be because they don't have to fear being stabbed by a Jew or being run over by a car driven by a Jew?

One thing that is little appreciated by those who have a tendency to blame Israel for every misfortune suffered by Arabs in Judea and Samaria is that 98% of them live under Palestinian Arab rule. These territories are governed by Palestinian Arabs, with their own legislatures, courts, TV, radio, newspapers, police, hospitals, school system and municipal services. These Palestinian Arab governmental agencies are largely corrupt, brutal and hate-mongering, spending a substantial portion of donated monies ($1.12 billion over the past 4 years) to reward citizens for murdering Jews. But they are their own, not Israel's. In short, Israel no longer runs PA-controlled areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM

So, I went back more than three or four of Greg's posts, and I couldn't find anything specific to respond to, other than some he said/he said squabbling that I don't want to be sucked into again. It's really hard to find anything factual in Greg's posts - and when I challenge him to make a specific point, he just says to look above to his previous unspecific posts. One would think that if he had said something specific that I could respond to, he could copy-paste it when I asked for it.

And I don't know what the hell Jim is talking about. No, I haven't been to Knesset meetings or visited Israeli prisons, but I've read a considerable amount about them and do not have a favorable impression. It would be good to have a factual discussion of those things. I wonder if Jim would like to tell us of his personal experiences.

I've read a lot of unfavorable things about the Palestinian government, and I was pleasantly surprised to see how much good they have accomplished.

I couldn't take pictures of the wall or of Israeli soldiers when I was there. Our Armenian guide said the Israelis have cameras everywhere, and they take action against people who photograph soldiers or military installations or the Wall. We had to go through a checkpoint at the Wall to get into Bethlehem from Jerusalem. The Wall was stark and ominous on the Israeli side, and covered with clever graffiti on the Bethlehem side. One made reference to Trump birthing a twin wall in the U.S.

My main impression of Israeli soldiers, was that they were awfully young - most looked to be about 20 years old, and I don't recall seeing any soldiers who looked older than 25. During the demonstration at Damascus Gate, maybe 30 young Arab women were sitting on the amphitheatre seats together, chanting anti-Trump slogans and having a good time. I wish I could have sat there with them. You'll see in my photos that the soldiers were dragging two or three young men away. I didn't see what the young men had done, if anything. There was a bit of struggling, but I didn't notice anything particularly abusive. Seemed like the same thing I've seen at demonstrations in the U.S. - demonstrators resisting, and officers dragging them away. I did talk to one or two soldiers and they were polite and helpful. The Palestinian soldiers were much friendlier and more talkative and relaxed.

Our drive from Jericho through the Jordan Valley was through Palestinian territory, so we had to go through a checkpoint when we turned off toward Nazareth. Our guide told us to say we had been in Jerusalem and had not stayed in Bethlehem. Otherwise, the soldiers would inspect all our baggage and we'd be delayed for an hour. So, two young soldiers got on the bus at the checkpoint. They checked the passport of one person at the front of the bus, and then went all the way to the back of the bus to wake up an Irish friend of mine who was the only one sleeping. Seemed to me to be petty harassment, just showing off their authority. But after that, they let us go on. It was dark, so I could not see if there was a wall connected to the checkpoint buildings there. Aljazeera (click) has an interesting page on the wall. Wikipedia has some good pictures, like the ones I was too chicken to take....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM

So...he specific points you wish to make are?

See at least three or four of my posts above, Joe. Any number of unanswered questions there.

Which I fully suspect will REMAIN inanswered.

However, thanks for at least one post without unfounded accusations, errors of fact, and gratuitous insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:46 PM

So, Jim and Greg, the specific points you wish to make are.....????

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:37 PM

WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM

Sorry, Greg. You haven't said anything worth responding to.

Pathetic, Joe, really pathetic.

You didn't seem to have any trouble responding to spew unsubstantiated accusations, errors of fact, and insults.

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:34 PM

Sorry, Greg. You haven't said anything worth responding to. I don't want to be drawn down to your level of petty combat. I started this thread to discuss Israel and Palestine.
Say something rational and factual and specific, and I'll respond to it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM

"You, Greg, and Jim Carroll have some sort of mental limitation that allows you to think only in absolutes"
For crying out loud Joe do you really have to dtrag this down to this level
Why will you not respond to what has been put up - another place where angels fear to tread, no doubt
Hypocrisy rules OK in your book
I will continue to put up these glimpses into real life for millions of people - not for your benefit - your refusal to respond makes my point for me far more than anything I could possibly write
Another idol with clay feet, sadly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

Well, Joe -

Greg_F, I generally do my best to ignore what you have to say, since so much of it is false and unfounded.

Except for the fact that you DON"T ignore it and are almost universally unwilling or unable to substantiate how it is "false and unfounded" and instead prefer to label those who disagree with you bigots & etc.

The Palestinians are not just wallowing in self-pity, waiting for you to ride in on your white horse to rescue them

Ya think Joe? Where did I ever maintain that they were? You're making this crap up as you go along. Or do you mean to say that the Palestinians are waiting for the AFSC et. al. to ride in on their white horses to rescue them as well??

Why is it that you and Jim Carroll are so offended when I say that the Palestinians are doing good things?

Made up shit (to stel a phrase from The Professor), Joe. How the hell can you maintain that I am in any way offended that the Palestinians - despite the Isreaeli occuping forces and Israeli government intervention - are "doing good things"? What, exactly do you base this assertion on? You're just flailing about wildly - or being disingenuous.

how offended you are when I say anything good about the Catholic Church

Again, you're being idiotic with this baseless assertion. And have no facts to back it up.

Politics is indeed important, but it has a limited effect on the daily lives of most people.

Unless said politics are those of the right-wing Israeli Likud government- which has a very real and direct negative impact on the daily lives of the Palestinian people- as the UNHCR and AFSC and Amnesty International and a host of others document.

Or unless said politics are those of Trump (a.k.a. President Shithole) screwing over the lives of the majority of people in the U.S.

Real life does not happen in the midst of the elite..... the elite are irrelevant to the rest of us.

Absolutely right, Joe - what Trump, or the Koch Brothers, or Theresa May, & the rest of 'em do has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the rest of us.

Joe, you need to take a deep breath and stop behaving like an ass. I had thought you were better than this - now I 'm not so sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:55 PM

Oh and Joe, it's not about any one ethnic group having a claim to it, it's about the Jewish peoples' right to a state on their ancestral homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:48 PM

Bobad, since biblical times, Palestine has been multi-ethnic. No one ethnic group can lay complete claim to it. Therefore, they have to learn to live together

And they are doing that wonderfully in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:35 PM

Bobad, since biblical times, Palestine has been multi-ethnic. No one ethnic group can lay complete claim to it. Therefore, they have to learn to live together.

Greg_F, I generally do my best to ignore what you have to say, since so much of it is false and unfounded.

And yes, Greg, as I said before, I REALLY read what UNHCR and AFSC and Amnesty International say about what happens in Palestine, and I believe those reports and do not discount them.

However, there is another side to the story of Palestine, facts that do not get as much publicity. The Palestinians are not just wallowing in self-pity, waiting for you to ride in on your white horse to rescue them (if you ever get to Palestine). They are building a nation and show great signs of advancement. I saw Jericho in 1999, and I saw it in 2017. The improvement is dramatic. The same thing applies to both East and West Jerusalem - they have improved greatly since I last saw them in 1999.

Why is it that you and Jim Carroll are so offended when I say that the Palestinians are doing good things? I certainly acknowledge that there is a vast need for improvement in Palestine and in most of the Arab world, but there is also much good in those places. And Palestinians in particular have a right to be proud of their country.

I suppose it's the same with how offended you are when I say anything good about the Catholic Church, although I certainly acknowledge the bad.

You, Greg, and Jim Carroll have some sort of mental limitation that allows you to think only in absolutes. You have a very black-and-white, moralizing point of view. But that's not real life. Real life includes both the good and the bad.

And another mistake you make, is to think that politics is the be-all and end-all of everything. In most of daily life for most people, politics is far in the background. It's not politics that made Israel a beautiful place - it's the individual work of individual people, both Arabs and Jews. Politics is indeed important, but it has a limited effect on the daily lives of most people.

You put all your emphasis on what leaders do, and that's a mistake. Real life does not happen in the midst of the elite. It happens in families and neighborhoods and workplaces. For the most part, the elite are irrelevant to the rest of us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:41 PM

Hi, Joe-

So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh?

I'm sure that you as a tourist, Joe, or any tourist, would know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there. Or than those organizations world-wide that report on the situation.

By the way, of those organizations you belong to as per 24 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM - Do you REALLY read what they publish as to the situation confronting the Palestinians (and Jewish dissidents in Israel) since you dismiss their descriptions and analysis of the situation out of hand? Are they just another bunch of bigots looking for combat?

I reposted one message from Greg that somebody else had deleted, but I left out the name-calling.

You mean like calling someone a source of "propaganda" (24 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM),a bigot worthy of the Klan (Another year, 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM). an "hysteric" or "habitually hateful" (Another year, 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM), an obsessed anti-Catholic( Another year, 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM), an anti-religious asshole bigot (Another year, 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM) and dozens of other examples???

I have never been one to delete messages unless I have a darn good reason, and that is almost always only cases of impersonation or direct personal attack.

Hmmm- impersonation & personal attack. Funny, you don't seem to apply this standard to Bobad & BeardedBruce.

I suppose at some point you intend to actually speak to the points I've raised rather than hurl insults and make lame "jokes"?

Or perhaps not.

Greg F.-
Charter Member,
Hateful Anti-Catholic Combat Bigots Of America Out For Blood, Inc.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:25 PM

"So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh?"
And I guess you haven't been following what has been going on in Israel for the last 90 years, huhy?
You are refusing to face facts just as you did with what was happening in your church - hopefully for your sake, I hope you doin't dig the same hole for yourself
Now this argument is back to whether people people who have settled the area for well over 1000 years have any claim to live there
Utter, inhuman madness
I wonder where such an argument would leave the present American, Sustralian and New Zealand populations if the same criteria were applied
I suppose it is a waste of time for me to ask you to respond to the links on Sabra and the Human Rights Watch survey - you seem to have chosen your side
It seems that you have no right to comment on what is happening in any pert of the world you have never visited
Some more links for you to ignore
THE POPE IS AN ANTISEMITE
UNITED NATIONS
Land Seziure (won't blue clickie)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-passes-bill-to-seize-private-palestinian-land-for-jewish-settlements/2017/02/06/b6d14220-ec90-11e6-a100-fdaaf400369a_story.html?utm_term=.262dff4f5db2
FIFTY YEARS OF ABUSES
SCHOOL ATTACKS
HOSPITAL ATTACKS
RABBIS SAY END OCCUPATION

Enjoy - or not, as teh case may be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:03 PM

You give every impression that you want us to hate the Jews so that you can have a handle for your arguments. What a shame for you that we just don't. None of us. I've never once seen anybody on this forum expressing or implying hatred for Jews, and neither have you. I have seen a lot of people who want everyone who lives TODAY in that region to be treated like equal human beings. I'm not posting again to this particular facet of the argument because I don't like talking to you. I'm sure you will feel free to bite back. Go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

My source, Bobad? Genesis 15:18-21.

And the Qu'ran says that Allah gave the land to the Israelites.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM

The myth of an indigenous "Palestinian" population that had it's land stolen from them by the Jews is simply that - a myth. In fact this CENSUS done by a Dutchman, Hadriani Relandi in 1695 finds virtually no Arab presence whatsoever in Palestine.

The truth of the matter is that the vast, overwhelming majority of Arabs living in Palestine arrived there between 1831 and 1947 brought in by the colonizers. The earlier ones came from Egypt and Sudan after the conquest of the Land of Israel by Egypt?s Mohammed Ali (1831-1840).

Libyan migrants settled in Gedera, south of Tel Aviv. Algerian refugees escaped the French conquest of 1830 and settled in Safed alongside Syrians and Jordanian Bedouins in Tiberias. Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), and Moslems from Bosnia, Turkmenistan, and Yemen (1908), further diversified the Arab demography west of the Jordan River.

Arab migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman Empire, and then by the British Mandate, to work in major civilian and military infrastructure projects. Legal and illegal Arab migrants were also attracted by economic growth, which was generated by the Jewish community beginning in 1882. They came from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, North Africa, Bosnia, India, Afghanistan, etc. Britain enticed Arab immigration and blocked Jewish immigration.

I am disappointed to find someone like Joe, who professes to being a good Christian, perpetuating this demonizing myth, something which I would expect from some of our other, let's say, ideologically driven members.

For crissake just take a look at this MAP. Virtually all the green except for the Arabian peninsula was taken from the indigenous peoples by force and is maintained as such to this day. That tiny red speck is Israel. Why so many today begrudge a relative handful of people, a people who have been persecuted throughout history, this tiny piece of land for a homeland is beyond my comprehension. I can only attribute it to one thing - hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:35 PM

My source, Bobad? Genesis 15:18-21.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM

The Arabs were squatters in Israel since before the arrival of Abraham.

Source please.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM

And you say they have no right to the land?

Except I never said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM

Yes, Bobad, by European standards of land ownership, the Jews took possession of Palestinian lands legitimately. But the Palestinian people who lived on the land for millennia, didn't operate by European standards of land ownership. The Arabs were squatters in Israel since before the arrival of Abraham. And you say the Arabs have no right to the land?
By the way, more-or-less the same thing happened when Europeans arrived in the Americas and Australia.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM

Arabs in Israel have a terrific standard of living

Yes and they also have the longest life expectancy of Arabs in any Arab or Muslim majority country. It seems that the Jews just can't get this genocide thing right........lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:12 AM

For those who continuously toss out the classic anti-Semitic trope that the Jews stole their land from the "Palestinians" this history of land ownership in Palestine may hopefully open your mind to the truth (which is highly doubtable but it never hurts to try)

Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880-1948

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM

I would like to know why the Israel director of transportation is also an intelligence officer. The intelligence officer and transportation minister Mr. Katz sold Donald Trump the project idea easily by presenting it to him as an honorary gift.

Why was Mr. Katz chosen to be the Trump gift giver?
Wouldn't that be something for their president to bequeath?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:23 AM

So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh?

Jim, I don't remember having said anything good about the government of Israel. I did applaud the Nation of Palestine for the progress it has made in spite of what Israel has done.

Israel has been ruled by a corrupt, right-wing coalition for most of the last thirty years. The opposition in the Knesset is significant, but not sufficient to take the upper hand.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM

So, Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce, have you ever been to Israel and Palestine? Maybe you're in the learning stage, too, and just don't realize it? .............I am a seasoned world traveler

Hubris again,Joe, so I repeat:

I'm sure that you as a tourist [ or any tourist would ] know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there.

I suppose at some point you intend to actually speak to the points I've raised rather than hurl insults and make lame "jokes"?

Or perhaps not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 AM

IN CASE YOU MISSED THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM

"We're still in the process of learning."
What kind of pathetic question is that Joe
I have never been to Vietnam, but I don't need tyo have to realise that pouring burningpetrol onto peasants is evil
There has been enough information streaming out of Israel since it was founded to make up your mind on what is happening there
How many Knesset Council meetings did you visit, how many prisons did you visit, did you get a chance to drop in on - did you get a chance to drop in on Mordachai Vannunu while you were there....?
There is a world-wide movement against what is happening at present and it has taken over 100 vetoes at the UN by your government to keep the Israeli regime out of the International criminal courts for their bahaviour
You really seem to have fallen in love with this regime
People visit these countries and are shown what they are allowed to be shown, and some see what they want to see
My late friend, Tom Munnelly, a humanist with no strong political links, attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem some time in the late 1980s - we still have a post card from him which says simply "Beam me up Scotty"
He later told us of witnessing the smartly uniformed young men constantly humiliating, stopping and searching Palestinian men women and children, lines of frightened Arab children being spat on and dodging the taunts and stones of their Israeli contemporaries, the racist comments from virtually every Israeli the talked to.... he said the atmosphere was that of a World War Two film outside the conference meetings.
Tou have had opportunity enough here to join discussions on Sabra Shatila (3,500 refugees massacred, women raped and left with their throats cut, pregnant women disemoelled and the foeteses left lying beside their corpses... three days and nights worth of this overseen by the Israeli troops who had armed the killers, transported them to the site and provided illumination so the killing could go on day and night)
The man responsible became Prime Minister - obviously another of your "bad apples"
How man discussions have we had on the incursions into Gaza, the civilian slaughter, the destruction of homes, the Israeli death-squads mopping up the survivors, the chemical and anti-personell weapons, the massive slaughter of civilians and wholesale destruction of homes, schools and hospitals
We forget all this because Joe Offer has just come back from his trip and wound the place wonderful
You want to know what is happening in the Middle East at present, go read it up - anything from 'Amnesty' or the United Nations will suffice
You might start here (can't blue clickie)
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
Enjoy, if you have the balls to read it through
Sorry Joe - I don't "enjoy" that sort of thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:32 AM

Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce and all the rest of you who are out for blood, you have to realize that many of us are here to discuss and learn, and don't claim to have all the answers that you have sworn yourselves to support. We're still in the process of learning.

So, Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce, have you ever been to Israel and Palestine? Maybe you're in the learning stage, too, and just don't realize it?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:40 AM

Hi, robomatic - thanks for your comments in the thread. I get a little overwhelmed by the ideologues. I haven't dared to lay one bombshell, and I don't know if I'll be able to do it. Oh, well, what the hell?
While things in Palestine are looking up, the truth is that Arabs in Israel have a terrific standard of living, and the Jewish and Arab Israelis have built an absolutely beautiful and prosperous country. In some ways, it seems like the people of Palestine would be better off to give in and ask to unite with Israel.

The trouble is, I'm not sure that Israel would be willing to incorporate the Palestinian Territory, because that would give the Palestinians a vast and instant majority in the Knesset. What would happen then?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:28 AM

To the powers that be: Thanks for leaving the thread open, so far. We've been getting the same entrenched positions and, unfortunately, the usual name calling. Whether or not the name calling is accurate I do not venture to comment, but for sure it isn't going to convince anyone of anything, and that includes Trump.

Joe, I value your opening of this thread in spite of the obvious danger of where it would go. I had a Catholic co-worker visit the Middle East about thirty years ago, and he came back spouting the Palestinian viewpoint, although it was more in sadness than in vitriol. I asked him if he'd talked to any Israelis or people from other backgrounds, and he had not. You made clear in your opening posts that you have given consideration to both sides, moreover you have seen the situation with your own eyes, which I have not yet done. There is nothing like a personal viewing. Thank you for writing about yours.

My current attitude is no news: I'm a partisant for Israel as a Jewish State. I would go along if the Israelis wanted to exchange land for peace, but I do not believe the Palestinians in power want peace, and this is not new. Yasir Arafat refused a pretty good deal during the Clinton summit towards the end of his second term. The Palestinian government has been prey to corruption and religious extremism. That doesn't mean the Israelis don't have similar issues, but they do a far better job of exposing them and they actually have had a working democratic government for their lengthening history (Israel turns 70 this May as a modern state). I believe you when you report the feelings of Muslim and Christian Palestinians, but would they be better off in any of the border countries? I had the opportunity of talking to some local Palestinians here in Alaska. They were charming and frank; among their opinions was they hated Shiite Muslims more than they hated Jews, they felt that among the sins of Israel were the coming of African immigrants and gay liberation. They also said that as an American Jew I should visit Israel. They are right about that list bit.

As a student, I got to visit Rome once, we had an excellent guide, and when she told us there were 400 churches in Rome, presumably most/all Catholic, I responded without thinking with a question of "how many synagogue?" "Four" she answered, (part of me was surprised there were any). I visited one of them, on a week day so very few people. It was sad to see military guards with machine guns guarding the Temple (This was in the 1970s, so memories of the Six Day War were fresh). There was a gift shop therein and the woman running it knew some English. I mentioned that I'd heard that Jews were not supposed to walk under the Arch of Titus because it commemmorated the conquest and sacking of Jerusalem. Her answer was "We can walk under it now, we have Jerusalem back!"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:39 AM

Jim Carroll says: You carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land they have occupied for millennia in order to create a 'pure' Jewish nation - millions of decent Jews, holocaust survivors and their families, American groups like 'Jews for Justice', 'Rabbis for Justice', Jewish humanists, intellectuals are protesting, taking to the streets and writing about the atrocities that are taking place there - teh ghettos, the Berlin-type Wall, the ten year blockage in order to force Palestinians into submission to the persecution, the evictions and the illegal settlements
Palestinians make up the single largest (7.2 million) and longest established national group of refugees driven from their home and refused the right to return on this planet at the present time
And you describe our opposition to this as "bigoted animosity"
You should be ashamed of yourself
Try a little humanity and soul-searching
Jim Carroll

Can't say I know enough about the Bedouins to comment, Jim; and I don't know of any significant removal of Palestinians. I only reported what I saw - and I did see that the Palestinian State is making good progress, although it has a long way to go. I'm wondering if those corrougated metal shacks I saw on the Jericho Road were Bedouins. That was the worst housing that I saw, but I did not see much of it.

You won't like hearing me say this, but I wonder if the Wall had an unexpected side effect - it seems to me that the Wall may have solidified the resolve of Palestinians to build their own nation.

Way up at the top of this thread, I did speak of the Jewish settlements and what I thought of them. I expected to see a few small outposts here and there, but not the case. These settlements are huge and ostentatiously lavish in appearance, and there is a great number of them, and they are protected by military force. I neglected to say that I read that in the building of some of the settlements, the Israelis bulldozed some homes where Palestinians had lived for fifty years. That's not something that I observed myself, but I read that and I believe it.

Ok, I suppose I have to admit that I "carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land." I tried to report only what I had observed myself, the good and the bad - and I think I did that fairly. But go and visit Arab towns like Bethlehem and Nazareth and Bethany and Jericho and East Jerusalem. I think you'll be impressed - and I think that's proof that Palestinians deserve to have a nation of their own. I don't know why you find that opinion to be offensive.

You dismiss me as "only a tourist," but I am a seasoned world traveler and I think a pretty good observer. I make a point of walking cities by myself and taking public transportation and stopping to talk with people. I go off by myself because I don't like being in an "American bubble." If I'm alone, people are more likely to talk.

Go to Palestine, Jim. I think you'll like it.

And Beardedbruce, I am intentionally ignoring what you say about what anyone did in 1948. I know that people like you and Jim Carroll work very hard to keep 70-year-old grudges alive, but I think those grudges are irrelevant. The ideologues work hard to keep that animosity alive, because it keeps them in power. I'll stick with those who are working to resolve the issues, not prolong them.

Go to Palestine, Bruce. I think you'll like it.

Don't go to Palestine, Greg. You'll just end up getting arrested - by the Palestinian authorities.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:30 PM

"So, Jimmy boy, you still don't answer the question why you approve of the Arab's removal of Jews from 1948, but not the far less effective Israeli resettlement of the West Bank."
Why should I answer any of your questions - you have responded to none of mine - Trump, your support for the Fascism that sent millions to their deaths, your extreme right politicas, your accusing the Jews of Israeli atrocities,.....
Now you are resorting to historical evasion
I'll answer any question you like when you explain your open support for an Antisemite like Trump
"Trump was a bad choice"
You are criticising Israel - that makes you an antisemite, doesn't it?
You really aren't very good at this - are you?
Jim Carroll
By the way, a reminder to Bruce Bobad andd Joe - all of whom have called me an anti semite on one occasion or another
My offer of a generous donation to a named charity for any example of my ever attacking, THE JEWISH PEOPLE still stands
What a sad, sorry bunch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:22 PM

And there are good people on both sides of the conflict in Israel....

Absolutely, Joe - just like the good Nazis, good white supremacists,
good racists, good anti-Semites that Trump praised in Charlottesville.

You bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:16 PM

Most things, most groups, and most countries have some good and some bad. Rarely is anything all good or all bad. Time for you to learn the difference.

Time for you to learn to read and reason, Joe. Where have I maintained this all good/all bad dichotomy you attribute to me?

As for the Palestinians, I'm sure that you as a tourist know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there.

I guess the only word YOU understand is "hubris".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:16 PM

So, Jimmy boy, you still don't answer the question why you approve of the Arab's removal of Jews from 1948, but not the far less effective Israeli resettlement of the West Bank.

But you never have answered questions, just accused others of being what you demonstrate yourself to be by your posts.