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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:01 PM It is very regrettable, though utterly predictable, that this thread has turned out the way it has. Unfortunately, Joe, despite your valiant attempts to be neutral, you haven't managed it at all if you're leaving posts alone from bobad and Bruce yet deleting posts from Greg. In so doing you are fomenting, naively, an anti-Palestinian hate-fest. I know that that is not your intention, but understanding the agenda of the ratbags who will pounce on these threads at the merest mention of the word "Israel" (they probably have some kind of alert set on their computers) is vital. I've warned you in PMs about bobad, haven't I, and I know for a fact that one of the other mods "protects" him. Ask me privately if you like. As for Bruce, you really do have to ask yourself, looking at his negative and hate-filled posts on this thread among many others, why he's still here while akenaton and Teribus are not. Just musings, Joe. This is your gig, not mine. But you have the means, not I, to make this a better place. I really hope that this thread has taught you that lesson. You will probably delete this post (I've copied it as a precaution), but, if you do, please ask yourself whether it's because you hate what I'm saying or simply whether it's embarrassing. The thread started so well, didn't it. I loved your photos and have put Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth on my bucket list. Cheers.
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:39 PM "Trump was a bad choice- But the alternative was worse." You people are pathetic - you scream "Jew hater" whenever anybody criticisms Israel yet you accept honouring an antisemite without a word of criticism You strut and fret about "Leftie liberals", displaying your own extreme right wing politics like a badge of honour Bobad produced the largest cut-n-paste I have ever seen on this forum in an attempt to prove Muslims had been monsters right back to early Christian times - his sources - mainly Muslim Watch and The White Supremacist - extreme fascist websites of the kind that sent six million Jews to their deaths It is often forgotten that, while we remember the six million Jews that died in the Holocaust, alongside them were Gypsies, those regarded as mental deficits TRADES UNIONISTS, COMMUNISTS, SOCIALISTS, HUMANISTS, ANYBODY VAGUELY LEFT WING all victims of right wing thugs who expressed similar views to your own, especially towards other cultures German RIGHT WING capitalism in the shape of Krupps, I G Farben and Volkwagen profited by Jewish slave labour, financed the people who created The Holocaust, and sent their slaves to be exterminated when they were too weak to work any more If you want to learn the role of those who shared your political views I suggest you avail yourself of Martin Gilbert's 'Holocaust' (Gilbert is a great Jewish historian, by the way) You admirers of Trump, Farrage and Netunyahu need to take time out to remember that it was their right wing politics that filled the mass graves of Auschwitz and Buchenwald Joe You carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land they have occupied for millennia in order to create a 'pure' Jewish nation - millions of decent Jews, holocaust survivors and their families, American groups like 'Jews for Justice', 'Rabbis for Justice', Jewish humanists, intellectuals are protesting, taking to the streets and writing about the atrocities that are takking place there - teh ghettos, the Berlin-type Wall, the ten year blockage in order to force Palestinians into submission to the persecution, the evictions and the illegal settlements Palestinians make up the single largest (7.2 million) and longest established national group of refugees driven from their home and refused the right to return on this planet at the present time And you describe our opposition to this as "bigoted animosity" You should be ashamed of yourself Try a little humanity and soul-searching Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM Maybe, Greg, maybe sometime you will grow up and learn the difference between the words "some" and "all." I regularly read and understand and appreciate regular notices from the UNHCR, the American Friends Service Committee, Amnesty International. I support all of the organizations you mention and occasionally donate to some of them. Most things, most groups, and most countries have some good and some bad. Rarely is anything all good or all bad. Time for you to learn the difference. Here's another word for you to learn: "balance." The only word you seem to understand, is "combat." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM The reality may not agree with your propaganda, Not my propaganda, Joe. Take it up with the U.N., the American Friends Service Committee, Amnesty International, dozens of other human rights organizations and, by the way, Israelis to the left of Likud. Of course, they're all wrong and you're right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM Well, here's a post from Greg that was deleted. I deleted the part that resorted to name-calling, but here's the rest:
From: Greg F. - PM Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM Disagree all you want, Joe. However, any number of human rights organizations with excellent records of credibility and decades of selfless service would beg to differ with your facile assessment. Get real. Or go talk to a few Palestinians living under the illegal occupation. I was there, Greg. I talked to the people. I saw the cities, and I saw that the cities were doing pretty well - much better than many of the cities I saw in Egypt. I said that I did not see the refugee camps. Those camps are 70 years old now, and generations have been born and raised there. From what I understand, living conditions in these camps are deplorable - and I said all that above, Jim and Greg. The reality may not agree with your propaganda, but what I saw and described is the truth. There is both good and bad in Palestine, but the Nation of Palestine is making real progress and deserves credit for it. I think there is great hope for Palestine....and I think that East Jerusalem should be declared the Capital of Palestine. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. I'm a pacifist, and I do not believe in the efficacy of warfare or revolution. Warfare and revolution only serve to transfer power from one strongman to another - and all the people do is suffer. Strongmen thrive on fomenting animosity among the masses. The only thing powerful enough to defeat the strongmen, is when little people have the integrity to overcome the hatred and work with each other. Trump and his alt-right supporters thrive on misinformation and propaganda that sets one faction against another. They create bigotry and anger because it destabilizes and disempowers the masses, and magnifies the power of the Trump Elite. The Trump Elite, just like the wealthy elite everywhere, have no concern for the little people. They find it offensive to have to provide healthcare and pensions and a living wage, or to allow people to migrate from one country to another fo find work and a safe place to live. It's not that the Trump Elite are bad people, although some of them are. The elite have absolutely no concept of what it is to have to work for a living. Just like those who have been enraged into animosity and bigotry by the Trump propaganda, Jim and Greg buy into that same animosity and bigotry - but from the other side. The only way for good to prevail, is for good people to work together. And there are good people on both sides of the conflict in Israel and Palestine. It's just that they're not in power. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM Trump was a bad choice- But the alternative was worse. But you have not answered the question: Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:51 PM Should read "and has been described by his own supporters as "unstable" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM One last comment before I shut doen fro the night This thread is about the fact that a new station is to be named after Donald Trumps Trump is an open racist, an antisemite surrounded by antisemitesa misogynist and has been described He draws a great deal of support from the Ku Klux Klan, who, historically are the leading antisemitic group in the United States with a history of persecuting American Jews He has allowed them back on the streets of America - should the Klan gain enough strength to do so they will no doubt return to their old habits of persecuting Jews and defacing and burning Synagogues S concerned are these two for the Jewish people that they have offered not a single word, either of defence or support for the fact that this is the man who is about to be immortalised by having a Jerusalem railway statione named after hium The Jewish people really do need supporters like Bruce and Bobad - don't they!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM And you do not answer the question. Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? YOU are the antisemite- and the racist savage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:20 PM " I do not agree that there has been ANY "illegal incursion into Gaza". I'm sure that anybody who believes it right to slaughter man women and children would never believe such a thing of the Isreali regime Not would anybody who blames the Jewish people for such atrocities Keep it up lads - you are making our argument for us Sick antisemites - the pair of you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:17 PM "And you believe slaughtering civilians is an answer to terrorism - an eye for an eye" No I do not. YOU should not judge others by what YOU think. It is OK after trial to execute people who have been convicted of murder. When those executions are by Jews, you call them assassinations. But you have praised and supported the killing of innocent civilian, including women and children ( as long as they are Jews, or Israeli Arabs that happen to be in the way), BY the Palestinians. So I think rather that YOU and GregtrF are the "bunch of racist savages" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:04 PM jimmy boyo, I do not agree that there has been ANY "illegal incursion into Gaza". First you claim Israel is occupying territory, then you claim they are invading that territory? Look at the treat between Jordan and Israel. Look for the boundaries agreed to. The West Bank is Israeli territory that COULD become a Palestinian state AFTER NEGOTIATION- Which the Palestinians refuse to do. Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM "So, GregtrF, you are ok with people killing Jews, but object to THEM being killed after they have killed Jews???" And you believe slaughtering civilians is an answer to terrorism - an eye for an eye You pair really are a bunch of racist savages bobad's list don't even add up to the number of women and children slaughtered in the last illegal incursion into Gaza - slaughtered by heavy artillery and anti personnel weapons You can't eve count the number who have been made homeless You pair are the ones who blame the Jews for all this - we blame Donald Trump's friend Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:32 PM One minute you are blaming Jews for Israeli atrocities, next you are pointing out how many are being killed Do you not see the link between the two? People who blame the Jewish people for what Israel is doing are directly responsible for the rise in Antisemitism You are the only ones to have brought the Jewish peole into this discussion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM So, GregtrF, you are ok with people killing Jews, but object to THEM being killed after they have killed Jews??? And YOU are the Liberal Poster boy here that can tell us all what to think... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM Here you go Greg: List of Jews killed by terrorists in Israel (1993 to present) List of Jews killed by terrorists worldwide (1953 to 2003) Like I said damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews. But Mommie- Billy hit me first! You & BrucedBeard should perform as a duet, Boo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM 2Damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh?" Damn the bastards who excuse the Israeli Regime for behaving in exactly the same way and then allow them to blame the Jewish people for it A JEWISH VIEW Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:40 AM Damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM "And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews." The have targeted anybody who gets in their way - go count the non-combatant deaths Hitler used exactly the same excuse when Lidice was wiped out Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM "Since World War II, Israel has used assassination and targeted-killing more than any other country in the West" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM Well good thing he only considered it eh Greg, unlike the thug Arafat who was responsible for killing thousands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:08 AM The biggest eye-opener I ever got was the documentary, 'THE GATEKEEPERS ' where six former directors of the Israeli Security Forces described on camera what their job was At least two of the interviews fall well into the many-times readjusted definition of the term 'Antisemitism' Right from the horses mouth from six Jews devoted to the Jewish people rather than the politicians Well worth a viewing if the Israeli powers-that-be (with the aid of their new ally, Trump) ever allow it to be shown again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:28 AM Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was so intent on assassinating Palestinian Liberation Organization chairman Yasser Arafat in the 1980s that he considered downing commercial passenger planes “Since World War II, Israel has used assassination and targeted-killing more than any other country in the West, in many cases endangering the lives of civilians,” Bergman wrote. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/magazine/how-arafat-eluded-israels-assassination-machine.html? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM I'd disagree. Well, Joe, I'd pick up the discussion but my posts would likely just magically disappear (again) so what's the point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:40 AM Proof of ethnic cleansing PALESTINIAN REFUGEES Confirmation, if needed "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." Golda Meir Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM under the ancient Hebrew Temple. This is where the current Dome of the Rock mosque sits. The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein the Muslim cleric in charge of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, says that there has never been a Jewish temple atop the Temple Mount, and that the site has been home to a mosque “since the creation of the world.” Arafat and Abbas have also tried to deny the historical Jewish connection to Jerusalem by claiming that no evidence has been found to prove any historical connection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:43 AM Not one of you people have even bothered to refer to the Implications of Israel'sw admiration of the world's most dangerous and unstable leader - your attempts at appeasement to ethic cleansing are somewhat pathetic Joe Isreal ceased to speak for the Jewish people as a whole when, after the massacre of 3'500 unarmed refugees at Sabra-Shatila, it elected the man its own enquiry deemed responsible Prime Minister https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/11/israel-ariel-sharons-troubling-legacy This article in this morning's Times, sums up for me what has happened to Modern Israel; the one ray of hope is the humanity displayed by Jewish people in the face of the inhumanity of the Regime Jim Carroll HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS HELP SAVE MIGRANTS FROM REMOVAL Israel Anshel Pfeffer Jerusalem A plan to deport 38,000 migrants from Israel to Africa was on the verge of col?lapse last night amid growing domestic opposition and a failure to agree terms with Rwanda. Holocaust survivors have criticised the plan and Israeli pilots have refused to fly the migrants out of the country. Yesterday Yehuda Bauer, a survivor and renowned Holocaust historian, compared the migrants' plight to that of Jews who escaped to Israel after the Second World War. The deal with Rwanda was developed after Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, ordered the National Security Council to speed up the deportation of migrants, mostly from Eritrea and Sudan, who had entered the country illegally from Egypt. The migrants were to be given the option of receiving $3,500 in cash and being resettled in Rwanda, or being jailed indefinitely. Most of those targeted in the scheme said they had escaped warfare and repression but Israel's government defines almost all of them as economic migrants. Of the 4,000 migrants whose requests for political asylum had been processed, only ten had been approved, refugee organisations said. Mr Netanyahu responded to critics, saying that "the infiltrators can co-operate and leave in a respectable and humane way or we will use other methods. What we are doing is totally legal and necessary. Israel's prison service has informed the government that it does not have space to incarcerate migrants who refuse to be deported. Legal opinions obtained by the government have raised question marks over whether deportation to a third country is lawful. Rwanda, the 'third country' to which the refugees were to be deported, seems to have gone cold on the deal. "The government of Rwanda wishes to inform that it has never signed any secret deal with Israel regarding the re?location of African migrants," the government's Twitter account announced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Donuel Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:03 AM In a true story about false motives, ego, international politics, religion and conspiracy theories comes a saga akin to Indiana Jones and the Dome of the Rock. Enter Donald Trump's ego fed with plastering his name on a train station at the Western Wall that will carve tunnels for 2 miles under the ancient Hebrew Temple. This is where the current Dome of the Rock mosque sits. The director of transportation AND intelligence officer for Israel Mr. Katz sold Donald Trump the project idea easily by presenting it to him as an honorary gift. Donald knows not what may be excavated in chambers under the Temple be it the arc of the covenant ;^| or other mysteries, nor would he care. However Muslims do care about the real estate above the tunnel that is currently theirs. Cue the soundtrack to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. This plot thickening Trump tunnel story will erupt again and when if does it will be explosive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:36 AM I haven't seen the refugee camps, but I have heard that they are bleak, hopeless places. I was favorably impressed by Jericho and Bethany and Bethlehem on the West Bank, and by the territory along the Jordan Valley. Our tour guide told me that Ramallah is also one of the nicest cities in Palestine. Along the road from Jerusalem to Jericho, there were some housing areas that looked like barrios in Mexicali - dirt floors and rooftops of corrugated metal. I couldn't tell if these were permanent homes, or if they were temporary quarters for sheepherders. But I get the feeling that the Palestinians are taking real pride in themselves as a nation. I think that's a great sign of hope. We went to the Christmas tree lighting in Manger Square in Bethlehem. It was a chance for Palestine to show off their stuff, and they did a good job of it with an animated LED Christmas tree and high-tech lighting, and great fireworks. The Prime Minister of Palestine spoke, and the mayor of Bethlehem. There was an element of small-town corniness to it, but I liked it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:02 PM The thing is that people like Shaw and Greg avoid public debate because they know that they are in fact on the wrong side. So I too say goodnight to you Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:13 PM Unless you're a Palestinian in the occupied territories So let's unpack that Greg. The terminology of "occupation" is derived from the actual lack of legal status to the territories over the "Green Cease-fire Line" agreed upon in the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements. No borders have been established or recognized by the parties. Armistice lines do not establish borders, and the 1949 Armistice Agreements in particular specifically stated (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent or de jure borders. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War. Legally the Jews were recognized as "cestui sue trust" of the political rights to them as embodied in the Treaty of S?vres (Section VII, Art 94-97) with regard to the Palestine mandate which was finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922. As for your use of "Palestinian" a Palestinian is simply an inhabitant of Palestine. There are Jewish, Christian, Muslim and non-believers who are Palestinian. Palestinian is simply a national designation like Canadian or American. There are no racial, ethnic or religious criteria for being a Palestinian. Only by right of birth, naturalization and descent does one become a Palestinian, as in most other countries. BTW, my wife's family were real Palestinians, not the fake Palestinians of Yasser Arafat's creation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM Posted By: Greg F. 23-Jan-18 - 05:36 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. I'd disagree. Many parts of the occupied territories are showing a lot of progress. I think the Palestinian State is doing a good job. Bethlehem is a wonderful town. Jericho is far better than it was when I visited there in 1999. Yes, there are places of poverty and misery, but things are improving. I believe in the Palestinian State. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:52 PM "The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place." Unfortunately, right wing administrations have attempted to do so by excluding non-Jews It is sad to remember that the Jews were exposed to the same process by the Nazis - all my Jewish friends said "never again, not to anybody", but they are now described as Jewish self-haters. You can see some of that here "But bobdad, it's not like Jimmy boyo thinks that Jews are really human, you know." Critiscise the extremist right-wing administration in Israel and you become a Jew hater Working definition of Antisemitism "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." Anybody who construes criticism of Israel is in breach of this definition Bruce and Bobad refuse to respond to this fact - neither have ever produced a single shred of evidence that any off those they have consistently described as "Antisemitic" have ever attacked the Jewish people - this makes them serial antisemites - by definition Bobad and Bruse have refused to comment on this trait in their character - it will be interesting to see if Christian Joe does. I'm comfortable with where I stand regardng the Jewish people I was brought up to despise Antisemitism - when my father saw what was happening in pre-war he volunteered to fight in Spain - he was wounded and imprisoned alongside Jews - three of his former International Brigade comrades turned up at his funeral OI worked with left wing Jews, described by Bruce as "the Liberal Gestapo", in the Peace Movement, and the Anti-Apartheid campaigns - I nearly married the daughter of a Holocaust survivor. This pair are happy to support ISRAEL'S ANTISEMITISM Now they are happy to see an underground station named after THIS ANTISEMITE I'm happy with my position and am not surprised they are happy with theirs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM Amen, Greg. :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. Unless you're a Palestinian in the occupied territories, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:34 PM OK, Steve- you're absolutely right. Same clown(s) posting the same nonsensical bullshit, per omnia saecula saeculorum. I'll try to swear 'em all off - but I can't promise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM But the Arab peoples have lived in Israel as long as the Jews have. The Arabs were there a couple of millennia before they became Muslim. So you can't say the Muslims have no right there because they were latecomers and weren't there until the 7th century. They were there long before that - they just had different religions. You might find this of interest. It was written by a Canadian M?tis, Ryan Bellerose, who is, as his father before him was, an activist for the rights of indigenous peoples. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/224254/bellerose-aboriginal-people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:52 PM I meant to say more in response to Bobad. As far as I know, "the Jordanians" didn't exists at any of the many times that the Jews suffered "ethnic cleansing"; but they did more-or-less level the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem when they occupied the Old City 1948-67 - and that was a shame and a travesty. But the Arab peoples have lived in Israel as long as the Jews have. The Arabs were there a couple of millennia before they became Muslim. So you can't say the Muslims have no right there because they were latecomers and weren't there until the 7th century. They were there long before that - they just had different religions. I think it's clear that both Arabs and Jews have a right to live in Israel - and in many ways, they live together and make things work and have built a beautiful nation. But there are those in power on both sides who profit from the conflict, and the conflict serves to preserve their power. These people in power are not necessarily bad people, and it's useless to moralize against them even if they are "bad" in our eyes. They just see things differently. They have no concept of the impact of suffering and poverty and powerlessness. The things that little people suffer, are beyond their comprehension. To them, it's all about what's politically expedient. And polarizing the masses and fomenting conflict is politically expedient, so they continue to do it and continue to live in comfortable oblivion to the suffering of so many. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:24 PM A contributing factor almost always overlooked is that WHEN the Arabs had control of Jewish Holy sites, they destroyed them, or prevented Jews having access to them. NO Israeli government has ever done that to Muslim Holy sites, but the Jews still remember, and will NOT allow it again. NEVER AGAIN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM That's partially right, Bobad. The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. And the Arab Israelis have also done the same - Arab areas in Israel like Nazareth are remarkable and beautiful. And in the beautiful city of Haifa, Arabs and Jews and Bahai and others have lived together in relative peace and have built an amazing city from the slopes of Mount Carmel to the Mediterranean. But there is a strong right-wing faction in the Israeli government, and it has played hardball in politics for decades. And for them, it is most important that they assert and retain their power. To make it worse, there are strong factions in Palestine and all over the Middle East that are just as intent on asserting and defending their power. And so, we have the mess we have. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM These settlements seemed to be intentionally provocative, to spit in the faces of the Palestinians who lived in the surrounding area. Do you not believe that Jews, who have lived in the area for millennia before having been ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians, have the right to build and live there again after having reclaimed their ancestral lands? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM Greg, Jim, don't post to this again. I fully respected the sentiment of the opening posts and enjoyed the photos. I wish this had stopped there. Only asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:12 PM But bobdad, it's not like Jimmy boyo thinks that Jews are really human, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:04 PM Contrast Israel's treatment of archaeologic sites with that of Jordan's wanton destruction of sites sacred to Jews during their illegal occupation of east Jerusalem: 58 synagogues were desecrated or demolished in the Old City, resulting in the de-Judaization of Jerusalem.[5][6][7] The Western Wall was transformed into an exclusively Muslim holy site associated with al-Buraq.[8] 38,000 Jewish graves in the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives were systematically destroyed, and Jews were not allowed to be buried there.[5][6] This was all in violation of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement Article VIII - 2 Wikipedia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:57 PM "Attack the poster rather than defend your statements" You mean like Sorry, Jimmy boy, " "is in full effect by the Liberal Gestapo." Another of your "brightestr and best" eh Brucie Mind you, you will have the chance to become an expert on the Gestapo if Nessie has his wicked way with Herr Trump Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM I see that the normal Mudcat - "Attack the poster rather than defend your statements" is in full effect by the Liberal Gestapo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM Sorry, Jimmy boy, the Arabs in Jerusalem may well be Israeli citizens, yet THEY supported the Mosque construction, at the cost of Jewish archeological objects. " 400 truckloads of topsoil removed from the Temple Mount by the Waqf during the construction of the underground el-Marwani Mosque from 1996 to 1999 I was pointing out to the antisemitic GregtrF that NOT ONLY Israeli Jews were risking damaging archeological sites, but ONLY the JEWISH construction is criticized here. That is by definition AntiSemitic. ALL construction on or near the Temple Mount should be rigidly controlled and monitored- NOT JUST Israeli. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM "Attacking me rather than discuss why you hold Jews to a different standard than anyone else, eh GregtrF?" I thought the definition said that it was antisemitic to implicate the Jewish people in the cations of the actions of Israeli !! Jim Caarroll |
