BS: On the cause of Famines

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM

But Steve, I'm not voicing an opinion on the attractiveness or otherwise of tattoos etc. I have seen and admired the most strange and bizarre body art and hairstyles in W Africa. I do not look down on anyone who presents themselves in any fashionable or bizarre way. MY point is that on a very limited budget, one cannot afford to spend much-needed family money on such things. Tattoos are very expensive. So are cigarettes. And convenience meals... And rather than 24 sugary doughnuts, one would be better advised to choose some fresh food with more value than pure sugar and fat for growing children.

And I agree with you that we are all bombarded with promotions for unhealthy and expensive food items. And that Cookery is no longer taught well, if at all, in school.

This is exactly why I am saying that guidance and education is much needed to help folk budget better and spend their money wisely. I notice that there are some adverts on TV now about healthy eating options and getting more vegetables/fruit onto the table. Our Tesco offers free fruit for children (small apples,oranges etc on a stand at the door) I don't think it is Poverty which is the main stumbling block. It is Ignorance. I am blaming society for that, not the shoppers at Asda.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:34 AM

There is enough food to go around to feed everyone in Britain - why should the poor bear the burden ?

There is always choice. Some choices are difficult to make because the chooser has preferences ingrained at an early age. They could be re-educated but that is not only a hard route, it imposes someone else's mores.

But what society chooses to give, can it not ask quid pro quo?

Try asking, you will get your answer! It will include a few choice adjectives and not a few verbs.

And I wonder about that plenty of food. Where does most of it come from? Here or not here. Change the parameters and you will see where the land lies. And we are discussing a change right now, not very eloquently, and with as much mess now as there will be soon. To bring it back to food - just watch the prices - and you will see. They ain't going down. Time will prove me correct. Least ways, I will be happy to be wrong............... if !

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 05:55 AM

Sebnoufou. You tell it like it is. I would not have the courage to be quite so blunt on this forum.
It is quite interesting when talking about health both Steve and I used the same metrics. Infant mortality and in Steve's case life expectancy.
In some ways they both encapsulate the essentials of a person's life linking health with duration. True as far as it goes but also skips over such things as quality of life and the truism that you are what you eat. My links above demonstrate there was a class divide impacting heath up to the end of WW1. Basic nutrition was understood by WW2 and
as a result all socioeconomic groups benefited. Post the 1954 end of rationing many things changed. The NHS, increasing car ownership, advances in medicine, diminishing cost of food, take aways and prepackaged meals........
    The government may have experts on nutrition, but try to have an intelligent conversation on the street about the subject and prepare to be disappointed. I would have to agree with Steve's last sentence above. We have a rising tide of obesity that has not yet had significant impact on mortality rates, but repeated studies suggest that it will, because there would seem to be a link between obesity and susceptibility to other diseases. IN 1950 most people walked, now kids no longer even walk to school(admittedly sometimes for good reason) " Just 60 years ago the average woman stood 5ft 2in tall, weighed 9st 10lb and was a size 12, with a tiny 27-inch waist.Today, according to the UK National Sizing Survey, we average a size 16, grow to around 5ft 4in, weigh around 10st 3lb, and our waists have expanded by a staggering seven inches".
As convenience rules supreme, and there is not a vast cost differential between cooking from scratch and wacking something frozen into a microwave, the outcome can hardly come as a surprise. Nutrition should be taught in schools along with basic cookery skills. It is hard to know if it is truly ignorance or idleness causes the problem.
As big government pokes it's nose into all aspects of life today perhaps a case could be made for reintroducing rationing with punitive taxes on gluttony. In an electronic world this would present no problem. Exceed your family calorie count and get hammered. I knew one far kid at secondary school out of 600 and he had a medical problem.
You have a challenge trying to find a skinny one today. Also the lobbying by these companies would terminate such a scheme immediately. Health eating could be achieved in schools if the government had the will. I recall my school dinners being nutritious but this does nor always equate with appetising.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:05 AM

And again the poor are being blamed for being poor and told it is up to them to cope with the shitty end of the stick our crumbling society has given them
I expected it fro Iains - he's the one who say survivors of horrendous foires should not be allowed to use cvacaant private property - but Sen!!!
In sadness
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

more grist for the mill:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Derek_Yach/publication/26391654_Food_fight_the_inside_story_of_the_food_industry_America's_
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/190446

15888/obesity-adulthood-its-consequences-life-expectancy-life-table-analysis

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM

Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish.
"I expected it fro Iains - he's the one who say survivors of horrendous foires should not be allowed to use cvacaant private property - but Sen!!"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:52 AM

"Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish."
Your abuse appears every time you are faced with a statement you are unable to respond to - sort of like a child who can't get its way throwing the plate on the floor
I hope for the sake of your family that you aren't this abuse at home - or maybe the opposite is the case and you come and take it out on us hereJim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:09 AM

Hahahaha Iains, yes I knew I was sticking my head above the parapet.
I've got my trusty tin hat on.

If one looks at the amount of money coming in to these house holds I'm talking about (near Asda) it isn't actually too bad. They get Housing Benefit, Child Benefit, no Council Tax to pay, free prescriptions, and JSA. Most of them are actually capable of work. And I know for a fact that many add surreptitiously to their income by various unsavoury means. (I got to know many families like these when I worked with ex-offenders. I grew very fond of them and found them rather vulnerable in many ways)
It's social incompetence not poverty that makes their lives unsatisfactory. Any social worker will tell you the same thing.

I also know many pensioners who have very little income, but our generation knows how to make ends meet and how to budget well. The State Pension in UK is one of the lowest in Europe, but all the old folk I know in our village eat well because they know how to.

I do not despise these families. But they're no poorer than my husband who works full time for £7-50 and hour and even pays some Tax on that.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:35 AM

"Hahahaha Iains,"
Now the poor ain't really poor any more
Shame on you Sen - not only denigrating the poor but laughing at them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

Don't be so daft Jim. I was laughing at Iains saying he would not have the courage to be so blunt on this forum. As well you know :)

I can see a storm brewing, and I'm off.

My husband has gone 'Up The City' to have his hair cut (African barber's shop in Norwich. He'll be ages nattering to all the others) and I promised him I'd make a start on the weeding as the sun is out.

Enjoy slinging insults at each other. I'm going to do some gardening!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:55 AM

"I can see a storm brewing, and I'm off."
Me too Sen - in sadness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 10:46 AM

" and I'm off."

CHANCE WOULD BE A FINE THING !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:03 PM

Iains, was that directed at me or Jim?

If it was to me, I can certainly oblige you if you like, no need to leave it to chance!

(Done a bit of weeding, husband home from the barber's, back on here apparently irritating everybody, hee hee)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

"If one looks at the amount of money coming in to these house holds I'm talking about (near Asda) it isn't actually too bad. They get Housing Benefit, Child Benefit, no Council Tax to pay, free prescriptions, and JSA. Most of them are actually capable of work. And I know for a fact that many add surreptitiously to their income by various unsavoury means."

Well if you can tell just by looking at people at Asda who's on what benefit, etc., you are something of a miracle-woman. By the way, people on jobseekers are harassed constantly by the benefits people and they can't get away with not taking jobs. If you're deemed capable of work and there are jobs around, you take the job or lose benefit, even if you're half-dead. Housing benefit generally goes straight to landlords (many of whom, incidentally, would make far better targets for your slings and arrows than those people outside Asda). Certainly there are people who cheat the system in the black economy, and that is not excusable, but, again, you're fishing for minnows instead of sharks. You told us you were telling us like it is and not judging. But you clearly are.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

Certainly not aimed at you Senoufou and I apologise for making my response ambiguous. Your contributions always add a positive note to any thread. I trust the foray into the weeds was a success. Whatever you say is measured, on target and accurate with no flannel and no exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM

That's very kind of you to say Iains, thank you.

Steve, if people are capable of work, and there is work available, I don't see why they shouldn't be asked to do so. And the entire area around Asda is social housing, no private landlords. If the folk I see are NOT on Benefits, then they aren't all that poor and have no need for my concern.
I feel it's much more dignified for a family to budget carefully, feed their children healthily and manage their lives successfully than to live in chaos, become ill from malnourishment and obesity and finish up with a visit from social services.
Dependence on the State is not ideal in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

By the way, I managed only ONE border - the wind got up and my knees were getting stiff. Husband has bought yet more of those ghastly Scotch bonnet chillies on Norwich market. Huge fat ones that can provoke a heart attack. Is he planning something? I renewed our Life Insurance last week....

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:03 PM

Okay, Eliza/Senoufou could do with a little bit more respect here.

I don't know about you,
but I was greatly impressed with the old BS thread some time back
that had posts about prison visiting.
I'm not saying that was the thread title, more like creep probably;
but there were numerous posts, regardless,
about the experience of going into the prisons,
visiting with the inmates,
and listening to their families as well.

Eliza/Senoufou need not trot out all her bona-fides and curricula vita
every time she volunteers an observation or opinion, surely.

I have been a guest of prison chaplains and prison volunteers,
inside the very spot where Malcolm Little had his conversion experience
and became Malcolm X, right here in Massachusetts.
All that says, regarding me, is that I know how unqualified I am
next to these volunteers and ministers.

Listening to Eliza being belittled and dismissed
just because she speaks from experience and does not mince words,
is for me much like hearing someone challenge
Charles Adams (deceased), Deacon Gerard P. Rooney (never met him, the inmates think he was a saint),
the Dominican Sisters of Bethany (those who remain in the United States
did so at the cost of leaving their congregation,
which returned to Europe and is dying out).
Not to mention le Bienheureux Pere Marie-Jean-Joseph Lataste OP.

It is all very well to pose challenges and ask questions,
and yet people who know whereof they speak merit respect
when they volunteer their observations.
Sorry, but these people -- and Eliza/Senoufou -- get more respect from me
than do the debaters on the defensive.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

"Dependence on the State is not ideal in my view. "

The fundamental difference in the US between the Left and Right presently is whether the government ( from the top down) should direct people's lives, pushing them to do what is "good for them"(Left), or whether the minimum amount of government ( from the bottom up) should allow people to go in the direction they wish with a minimum of public interference, and take the responsibility for their actions and decisions.( Right)

The former has the Government taking resources from all to enforce what is decided is good for some, while the latter has the responsibility for for the social safety net being in private ( church and social) rather than government hands.

A BALANCE of both is needed- the LEAST government at the lowest level should provide the minimum to ease poverty and provide for opportunity to improve one's state. IMO, of course




ASIDE- try this on crumpets with cream cheese:

http://www.jamaica-no-problem.com/pepper-jelly.html#sthash.1AcANNZP.dpbs

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 01:24 PM

Steve I think we are probably all more in agreement that not. The trouble with one paragraph responses is that they make points, but in isolation.
I think we can agree that more could be done to educate people about nutrition and this is across all socio-economic groups.
There is a subset of people that are functionally illiterate.
We closed asylums to advocate care in the community,yet some are reduced to having a cardboard box in a doorway as their home. We all have heard of lottery winners that have squandered everything after a couple of years. There are low skilled jobs but no unskilled jobs. To be employable you have to be able to follow simple instructions and obey legitimate orders. For a small minority that is a step too far. So there will always be people outside the continuous care system but unable to do an adequate job of looking after themselves. A basic analysis of the homeless figures give a truly frightening picture. " More than half of young homeless people were excluded from school growing up, 40 per cent experienced abuse at home, 33 per cent self-harm and 30 per cent spent part of their childhood in care. Theoretically they should be targeted as a priority group. In practise, NOT SO. A quick search will find many articles to back this up. Until more is done for disadvantaged children this vicious circle will not be broken and the cycle will continue.

Some prepackaged meals are cheaper than trying to accomplish the same with fresh ingredients so it is hardly surprising many choose the microwave option. It is both fast and effortless.
   Besides the above facts the modern world has virtually eradicated hard graft, yet many eat vast amounts of calories without giving a thought to burning them off, hence rising levels of obesity.

I see no point in fingering the bottom of the heap. Far more would be achieved by fully understanding the various factors that spawned their misfortune. I am sure any reasonable teacher can see those children that society is failing, but short of outright abuse, what does society do about it? I have only outlined a couple of snapshots, obviously it could be vastly expanded.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 03:40 PM

Jim writ on 3 April regarding the Soviet State sponsored starvation of Ukraine:

The Ukrainian famine came about by Collectivisation, which was a bungled attempt to feed a starving Soviet Union
Stalin's ruthlessness was matched by that of the land-owning peasants (the Kulaks) who slaughtered their livestock and burned their crops rather than take pert in the scene (carefully missed out by many historians)
No side came out of this affair with anything to be proud of.

Ah, but one side was Soviet Russia, the side in absolute power (Stalin, remember?). Your fact-free response is utterly ridiculous to anyone who can view the defunct phenomenon of Soviet Communism in a fair light.

Your words are blasphemous not to any religion, but to the human conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:00 PM

I can discuss all that with you any time, Iains, but I'm afraid I can't accept judging from appearances. You may think the people you see outside Asda are from that social housing. Well I frequent an Asda surrounded by social housing, I'm a scruff and I often come out of that Asda with my wagon full of cheap plonk on offer and other unhealthy-looking stuff. I then load it into my beaten-up, ancient Ford Focus that's just about been round the clock. But I also support my local butcher, fishmonger, newsagent and greengrocer, I grow my own veg as much as I can and (apart from my state pension) I'm not on any benefits. And that Asda is 25 miles from my house. Apart from the fact that I don't hang around outside with a fag in my gob, I'm indistinguishable from the people Senoufou describes. Which is why judging from appearances, which you and keberoxu appear to be defending, isn't that safe.

And I see no reason why people on low incomes shouldn't have flat-screen tellies, X-Boxes for the kids, smartphones, tattoos and all the rest of the paraphernalia that capitalism shoves in our faces. Some of the rather arrogant better-off who criticise the poor for such things think nothing of parading around wearing hundreds of pounds' worth of jewellery every day or spending half an hour every morning plastering their faces with expensive makeup and the rest of their bodies with expensive wrinkle-reducer that's as much use as snake oil. And somebody must be buying those twelve-quid bottles of wine I see in Bude Sainsbury's. It ain't me, that's for sure, and I'll guarantee it ain't those claimants either. So easy to condemn from a place of near-luxury. Just what the Tories want us to do! Divide and rule!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:08 PM

By the way, almost every shirt I own and all my undies are Asda George. Why wouldn't I mention that?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 07:58 PM

"Your fact-free response is utterly ridiculous to anyone who can view the defunct phenomenon of Soviet Communism in a fair light."
I'm no lover of Stalin , though I probably hate him for very different reasons that you do, but I know that there is not a shred of evidence to show that the Ukrainian Famine was "man-made" - not one - unless, of course, you have unearthed some
What was happening the the Soviet Union at the time had nothing to do with Communism (again, unless you can cite in the theoretical works that the incompetence and brutality was part of their doctrine- I've never found it and I've read enough about it)
No system can hold up clean hands - Industrial Capitalism sent six million Jews to their deaths, just as Imperialism and the struggle for political dominance had wiped out a generation of young men two decades before.
New Germany (under the National Socialist Party) was regarded as "the bulwark against Bolshevism" according to war hero, Winston Churchill
Despite what was happening to the Jews in Germany "Herr Hitler" gained power totally appeased until Britain had no alternative but to go to war
I'm sure I don't have to mention our Monarch teaching the Royal sprogs how to do the fascist salute!
The re-formed Luftwaffe perfected their bombing techniques on the market-goers of Guernica and on the citizens of Madrid while Britain mounted a blockade to prevent weapons from reaching the democratically elected Government
When you start counting up the dead of Korea and Vietnam - and now the oil wars, I wouldn't like to take bets on which philosophy (Communism was never a system, but an aim) took more lives (and is till doing so).
Is "free Russia" better or worse than the Soviet Union?
I can't recall genocide taking place in Yugoslavia in of what happened almost immediately after it "threw off its shackles of Communism"
Now Romania is "part of the free world" Britain is desperately trying to keep out Romanian economic migrants - Brexit was pushed through on the basis of excluding such people
When you talk about antisemitism, you need to remember that firms like Volkswagen were founded on Jewish slave labour
I needn't go itno the fact that our British way of life is based on being able to fill our shops with goods produced under near-slavery conditions
Without infringing on other threads, ethnic cleansing is now back with a bang, and it ain't communist states involved in that nasty past-time
There's a great deal of "our oppression is better than your oppression" smugness in these discussions - and a great deal of voluntary amnesia and very little human conscience -
I suggest you read higher up this thread to see how the parasitic poor looking for a "free lunch" are regarded by some of the most fervent supporters of this system of ours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

Anyone here use buses regularly?

There are those that are on their way to the Jobcentre (I pass the place) who have smart phones and gab on them the whole journey. A lot of them smoked. When I was in that situation I was on pay-as-you-go and spent 5GBP per 3 months on it.
One makes ones choices.
I preferred to "cut my clothe according to my measure".

There are those that understand what society does for them, but there are also the greedy.
Some of those greedy are castigated for being bloated capitalists.
They are all greedy. All greedies feel they have the right to do what they want. And are only curtailed by rules (rules that are applied that is). Not all greedies are rich. Not all rich are greedy. Ditto poor.

Looking at a successful business person and branding him (or her) as greedy therefore unworthy is as heinous a travesty of objectivity as looking at "the poor" and tarring all with the same brush strokes.

But being honest with an appraisal means other people jump to conclusions that by stating the bleeding obvious you are branding all within a similar single criterion as unworthy.

Being judgemental is easy, being objective requires removing a few pet theories and admitting that you are observing from outside the cohort, and at a distance often.

I live in Stroud by accident. I used to (thank goodness) live in Walsall. That good fortunes is not lost on me.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM

"I suggest you read higher up this thread to see how the parasitic poor looking for a "free lunch" are regarded by some of the most fervent supporters of this system of ours
Jim Carroll "

Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, it will be a forlorn hope.
The man is away with the faeries, as per usual. Trying to make a point by gross exaggeration and outright untruths. The only thing he insists on deleting from his nonsense is "once upon a time." and then he has the audacity to wonder why some treat him as a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:41 AM

Aye, Mr Red, you 'ad it TUFF...

I lived in Tipton for a year. Commiserations on your sojourn in Walsall. As I know your grief. I used buses a lot of there. Can't where I live now as there aren't any. My bus pass is next to useless. Maybe those people with the phones and fags were working at the job centre. It must be very stressful.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:04 AM

"Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, i"
Feel free to contradict anything I wrote Iains - piece by piece if you can't
handle it any other way
Are you really so stupid as not to realise that your infantile insulting only serves as an indication that you have no intelligent answer to what has been suggested?
You really aren't the brightest Donald Duck illustration on the baby's bib, are you?
Grow up and expand your reading experience beyond hastily snatched Guido Fawkes blogs - proper literature can be extremely enjoyable once you've dipped your toe in it for the first time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:07 AM

"I lived in Tipton for a year. "

Tipton boys they did us join, oh boys oh,
Tipton boys they did us join, oh boys oh,
Tipton boys they did us join and we formed a strong combine
Oh boys, oh, boys, oh the brave Dudley Boys
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

The world according to little jimmie!


Through the eyes of a child

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:46 AM

"The world according to little jimmie!"
Stop rproving you have no answer to the poits I made - it's obvious you don't
Got the message loud and clear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM

Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted. Present fabrications, bluster and totally outlandish statements and expect to be ridiculed. Quite easy really.!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:49 PM

"Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted"
Why not try doing this yourself without the abuse - one by one, if you prefer
Any eejit can dismiss out of hand as you are constantly proving
You have the facts as I believe them - disprove them with yours
It really doesn't get more difficult than that
The fact that you don't is a clear indication that you can't
YOUR STARTER FOR TEN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie.


Anyway back to the thread that is far more interesting. The link below is a 2012 UK food security policy paper. It makes for an interesting read. http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04985#fullreport There is a pdf of the full report accessed at the end of the paper.
and

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/future-of-food-and-farming

If a severe shock occurred to the food system the UK holds stocks for just under 2 months. Most households keep food stocks for a couple of days. After that Anarchy
and (fairly old)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jan/11/nine-meals-anarchy-sustainable-system

My feeling is that the average punter needs to snap out of complacency.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:47 PM

"Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie. "
Game, set and match, I think
Did you really expect anything else, behaving how you do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Go and infest another   thread jimmie. This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing. How many times do different people have to spell things out to you, before you start paying attention. Are you stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:05 PM

"This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing."
Not a good loser as well as an abusive idiot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 07:35 PM

*Groan*

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 08:26 PM

On 04Apr18 (golly, seems like only yesterday!) you writ:

I know that there is not a shred of evidence to show that the Ukrainian Famine was "man-made" - not one - unless, of course, you have unearthed some
What was happening the the Soviet Union at the time had nothing to do with Communism (again, unless you can cite in the theoretical works that the incompetence and brutality was part of their doctrine- I've never found it and I've read enough about it)

I'm impressed with the depth of your unsupported 'knowledge' of how up to 5 million people died in the breadbasket of the erstwhile Soviet Union. You claim to be no supporter of Stalin yet you are making room all around him to absolve him and his sick government of one of the great crimes of the 20th Century.
You could go here for three different books on the same theme
Your loggorhea of words above is more of a scattergun reply about everything on your, um, pate, but free of a direct response to my comment of a Communist caused episode of mass starvation.

Of course, there was a much larger famine, aided if not caused by The Great Leap Forward which claimed over 30 million souls, (if indeed, asians count as souls to you, we already know you have a problem with joos).

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:24 AM

"yet you are making room all around him to absolve him "
No I am not
I've read up fairly closely on the subject and it is as I suggest - there is no evidence that what happened was a deliberate act - not was it caused by a "system" - Stalin was a horrific distortion of an attempt to change the world for the better
THe Russian Revolution arose out of one of the most inhuman acts on the planet - World War One - 41 million casualties (18 million dead and 23 million wounded)
This was a war for dominance and power between Empires - a dividing up of the world to decide who among the most powerful nations should profit from whom
In Britain's case it was a family squabble between related Royal families I believe that that is how history will write it up eventually, as it has so many other such conflicts in the past.
At the time the Russian soldiers decided they had had enough of this butchery that had lost nearly 2 million military. nearly 5 million wounded and 2 and a half million missing - over 9 million in all - all in the interests of a Tzar who had kept his subjects ruthlessly in feudal conditions and had shot them down on the streets when they complained
The soldiers returned home to find two political factions - one who totally opposed the war - the other who wanted them to go back to the front and "we'll sort things out when it's all over"
The winners of that argument, The Bolsheviks, were faced with governing a starving Empire ranging from primitive feudalism in the East to undeveloped capitalism in the West - dificult enough for any system
Then along came the Civil War with and invasion of fourteen western countries who wanted to return things to how they were (some of whom had been sworn enemies during "The Great Imperial war a few years earlier).
That was the situation the new leaders had to face - to turn a whole empire in a totally new direction.
Russia should never have been the first country to have attempted to build the much-needed new society - the war decided that one
Immediately after the war the German people took up arms against the system and took over large swathes of their country - they were eventually defeated, their leaders murdered, German Capitalism financed the Nazis and "we started all over again" - this time with countess millions of deliberate exterminations - Jews, Socialists, Trades Unionists, and those considered to unfit to live in a pure German capitalist society.
Pointing the finger at a momentous abberation like Stalin and ignoring everything else is somewhat myopic, doncha think?
Go look at the bigger picture
I don't here many complaints about the over 1 million war casualties much later in the war of intervention in Vietnam (many caused buy dropping burning petrol on the heads of peasants, or slaughtering them with carcinogenics chemicals)
Acts of inhumanity are acts of inhumanity - whoever carries them out
" we already know you have a problem with joos"
And there you go with your unfounded and unjust accusation of antismitsim
Anybody who associated the slaughter and land seizure that is taking place at present with the Jewish people is an extreme antisemite - and it certainly ain't me   
There is a large donation to charity on offer to anyone who can show a single case of my ever denigrating The Jewish people - no takers so far
Perhaps you would like to make a similar offer - I'd love a crack at that one
Your accusations are not only dishonest but they are despicably cowardly as you don't even attempt to substantiate them
Any mindless cyber-stalking troll can make such accusations - as you, Bobad and Beard Bruce have proved over and over again
Isnt the term ""Joos" antisemitic?
I don't knw, I've never used it - I leave that to the antisemites
For Christ's sake, do you have to bring your antisemitism to yet another thread?
It has no place here - can some passing forum fairy remove this before this troll closes down another thread please (are you there Joe?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM

" and I'm off."

just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:25 AM

"just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox
Will you stop this
If you can't behave like an adult then leave the adults to it
If you insist of trolling I'll ask that you be removed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM

Stop posting rubbish and I will no longer treat you as the resident clown. It is very easy!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:23 AM

You obviously made an effort to clean upi your act for a time – now you have reverted to your old self of indlting anybody who disagrees with you in undermine arguments you are incapable of challenge
THIS LATEST ONE IS AN OPEN ADMISSION THAT YOU ARE ATTEMPERING TO CENSOR THESE DISCUSSIONS - “STOP POSTING RUBBISH” A PRETTY GOOD REASON TO REQUEST YOUR EXPULSION FROM THIS THREAD I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
Below is a list of your latest offerings – little evidence of any attempt to debate seriously the subjects you involve yourself in
I haven’t decided whether to put up some of your other abusive epics on an active thread or open a permathread where trolling such as your can be dealt with without interfering with other discussions
Your behaviour is extremely mindless and the fact that you operate from the safety of anonymity and distance makes it cowardly
I don’t believe serious debating forums need people like you and need to rid themselves of your like if they are going to continue to exist
Jim Carroll

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:44 AM
For Shaw from his favourite newspaper:
Sweeping statements from shaw, no evidence to back it up. Now who else does that ad nauseum?
I recommend you get a new hymn book, some of your verses are misleading if not totally erroneous.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM
Now I think you will agree that had you read and understood what was written by me you would not have made a total ass of yourself now would you?
From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:23 PM
Didn't do you much good, did it?
A typical attempted put down by shaw and in particularly bad taste!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 04 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM
Chewing on lemons again. Pure gibberish.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM
Of course should anyone demand some proof to justify the bizarre statement above, it will be a forlorn hope.
The man is away with the faeries, as per usual. Trying to make a point by gross exaggeration and outright untruths. The only thing he insists on deleting from his nonsense is "once upon a time." and then he has the audacity to wonder why some treat him as a fool.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM
The world according to little jimmie!
Through the eyes of a child
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM
Present facts and they can be disputed or accepted. Present fabrications, bluster and totally outlandish statements and expect to be ridiculed. Quite easy really.!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM
Your link has nowt to do with the price of tea in China Laddie.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 05 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM
Go and infest another   thread jimmie. This one was progressing quite well until you started your usual frothing. How many times do different people have to spell things out to you, before you start paying attention. Are you stupid?
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:17 AM
just knew it was too good to be true! Jimmies found his paintbox.
From: Iains - PM
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:57 AM
Stop posting rubbish and I will no longer treat you as the resident clown. It is very easy!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:46 AM

Most posting here prefer a semi serious debate on various topics interspersed by the occasional pisstake.
You on the other hand demand that all adhere to your often weird interpretation of events that you back up by "made up shit" and blustering bullying attacks on all who hold a counter view. How many people does it take to tell you this, before you recognise your own failings?
Were I to list all your silly postings, the internet would overload and grind to a halt. Now go away and stop behaving like millenial!


class and diet.
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/87/5/1107/4650128

Modern agriculture and declining crop quality


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

When behaviour like yours is as regular and as abusive as your is transcends "occasional pisstake" and becomes personal and permanent insulting
You appear to have no control on your behaviour "made up shit" I make nothing up and it's's not ssit - it's fully documented and traceable information - the fact that you are unable to deal with it as that is a reflection on you
This is more confirmation that you attempting to censor that which you do agree with
If you have any evidence of my "bullying" produce it, otherwis I suggest you withdraw it and apologise
The yael or so long eaxples of your personally abusive postings is evidence enough of who the bully is here.
You seem to believe that expressing independent contrary opinions is a form of bullying - maybe in your world - not mine
If you continue to presonaly abuse and attept to censor those who disagree with you I will formally put yourt behaviour into teh hands of teh administrators of this site
Stop it now - for all our sakes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:14 AM

"If you continue to presonaly abuse and attept to censor those who disagree with you I will formally put yourt behaviour into teh hands of teh administrators of this site
Stop it now - for all our sakes"


And that goes for you as well.


If you keep posting lies about what others have said, you run the risk of others telling the truth about you.
DEAL WITH IT.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:24 AM

"And that goes for you as well."
My invitation to Iains goes fro you as well Bruce
I never bully though occasionally I return personal abuse in kind - I ahev never called you a Jew hater even though you hold the Jewish people personally responsible for the ongoing crimes o Israel
Feel free to display my bullying and lying for all the world to see
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM

"even though you hold the Jewish people personally responsible for the ongoing crimes o Israel "

An example of your lies. If you state YOUR OPINION as a statement of fact, YOU ARE LYING- Your statement is as false as your other claims.

BTW, how about that Far-Left support of the Nazis by Ireland? Since YOU state that if ANYONE is not in agreement with you, they must be the extreme end of the political spectrum.

So YOU are as bad as those Leftists. I have just proven BY YOUR LOGIC that YOU support Nazis and the killing of Jews.



"the IRA supported the Nazis, and the Nazis supported the IRA. The IRA helped the Luftwaffe bomb Belfast and Derry.

Hitler would of course have done to Ireland what he did to every other country. In the Wannsee Conference notes of Jan 1942, Ireland's 4,000 Jews were listed for extermination. No doubt Irish quislings would have helped in this, as quislings helped in every other country.

Luckily, the IRA failed in their plans, and the Jews of Ireland were not exterminated. The IRA has still not apologised for this. "


http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html

http://markhumphrys.com/IRA/4.JPG

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 09:22 AM

""I don’t believe serious debating forums need people like you and need to rid themselves of your like if they are going to continue to exist"
Jim Carroll"

This section of Mudcat is entitled BS

OED Definition of bullshit in English:

"bullshit- noun - mass noun - vulgar slang

Stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense."

Ill repeat without apology "When will they ever learn , when will they ever learn.
Think about it?