BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:04 PM

Donuel your cryptic responses look like you treat it as a game. Perhaps you cannot access the real news where you reside. Perhaps as your country has not had collateral damage since the civil war then you think you can trivialise what is happening an ocean away.
    The Cuban missile crisis was an insignificance compared to the place we are at today. We have surrounded the russian bear with 400 +bases and now we are goading it. The bully on the block may find life becoming very serious in a heartbeat. Others can draw lines in the sand as well.
Do you think they merely bluff?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:57 PM

It is easy to be sure you are right when it is not your own life you are putting on the line. Sadly, in this case, it could be all our lives. All because you believe one despot over another.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:49 PM

BTW bobad, I agree with your last post. Far better than lobbing bombs over the fence.

Freezing Putin's account would be in response to the Salisbury attack. Bombing Assad's machinery of war and its infrastructure would be the response to him gassing his people.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:43 PM

Iains daring a teuton gluten Putin or a tiny timid Trump to go nuclear is not what you should do. Not even vicariously

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:15 PM

The Sun-2 hours ago
"As he spoke a US Navy destroyer, the USS Donald Cook, was underway in the eastern Mediterranean after completing a port call in Cyprus. The Arleigh ... Meanwhile USS Harry Truman aircraft carrier strike group was on its way to the Syrian coast armed with cruise missiles and an array of warplanes."

Wish it was false news. This could end in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Dave the Gnome
you're OK.
You're not a spy.
Of course you knew that
so why I said that
I know not why.

Ah now I remember
The victims are well
enough to testify.

..................


It's Iaians who is a propagandist using fake news.
He's upped his game,
by listing the sins of western folly and regime change
but

he's still the same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

This could all go horribly wrong:

https://ahvalnews.com/syria/us-t

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/04/10/harry-s-truman-carrier-strike-group-deploy-norfolk.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:58 PM

Might end up with the tallest leader getting his/her way, thought...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:55 PM

re 10 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

If so, let them stay in the room anyway. ...Maybe make sure the ceiling is not too high, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:54 PM

That is a wish, not a proven fact. I agree it would be nice if it were so, but fail to see any demonstrations that it applies to Man as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

Now we are getting into the swing of it BB, but no bathroom breaks? Wouldn't that just make a mess on the floor?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:47 PM

War has never solved the problem. It just replaces it with another one. Whoever is the aggressor may be at fault but that is not the point. There must be a better way.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Re your 10 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

No bathroom breaks until they solve the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

Maybe if we got all their Mums or wives together and got them to tell their sons or husbands to stop being naughty boys?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

War does not always solve problems, but it can.


Just ask the Carthaginians. Or the Trojans.

The THREAT of war has solved far more than the actual war- BUT the threat is only effective if it is believed. The MOST expensive military is the second-best-All it can do is make it expensive to beat that side.
That can sometimes prevent conflict, by setting a high price on the winning side.

The best will prevent conflict in more cases by demonstrating the that cost of conflict is too high for the losing side to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

I feel sure that if we put our minds to it here we could sort out the worlds problems. On second thoughts, I don't think slugging it out would be acceptable. How about we put all the world leaders in a big room and tell them they cannot have any tea until they have made friends with each other?

PFR - I am sure you have a wealth of ideas!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

Who advocates doing nothing? I refer you to my post of 10 Apr 18 - 09:58 AM

I am pretty sure i know which is the more rational decision. And it is not to do nothing, it is to get to the truth.

It is pretty obvious that war does not solve problems. I don't pretend I have the solution but to keep making the same mistake over and over again is akin to lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

There is a difference between "no" and "acceptable for the lives saved that would have been otherwise killed." collateral damage.


Let's stop pretending that if we do nothing, nothing bad will happen.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

Are you saying we could not have saved some of them if we had gone to war at the time?

Right back at you. I have said nothing of the sort.

But let's stop the pretence of there being no collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM

Bruce - I reckon I can distinguish between 'Going to war'
and 'fighting for a greater good to prevent or curtail war'...

Trouble is, a 'world police army' is a great dream, but in practice...?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:53 PM

DtG - yeah... but which one would smear Nobblechoc [or whatever Porton Down claims it to be]
all over the knuckles of his/her boxing gloves
while the others have only hidden horse shoes in theirs...!!???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:49 PM

"Are you saying that there have been no civilian casualties in the attacks of the 'allies' on eastern countries. I find that rather difficult to believe. No innocent civilians killed in Iraq? Palestine? Afghanistan? Are you sure?"


I have said nothing of the sort.


But the numbers killed because we did NOT intervene is known- 2 million in Cambodia, 800,000 in Rwanda. Add the 2 million Armenians, the 6 million Jews, the 2 million or so Gypsies....

Are you saying we could not have saved some of them if we had gone to war at the time?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:41 PM

Wouldn't it be good if the leaders of nations would get into the ring and slug it out:-) Who would you back? Trump or Putin? I reckon May would take 'em both:-) Sadly, although I would back him in most circumstances, I wouldn't hold out much for Corbyn's chances. Unless he was in a tag team with Johnny Two Jags. Xi Jinping is probably a King Fu master. Looks a bit like Jackie Chan anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:07 PM

But so are many others, including some of our so called allies.

Who else is using nerve gas and other chemical weapons? No-one Dave.
If its use becomes acceptable in conflicts, the world becomes a worse place.
Using it should bring consequences to the perpetrators. Some evils can not be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:49 PM

It's a very tough call. I am far from saying that Russia and Syria are innocent. I am sure they are both guilty of many abuses. But so are many others, including some of our so called allies. I have no idea what the truth of this matter is. Very few do, including everyone on here. Well, unless someone here is a top security analyst with the highest clearance and too much time on their hands! What I am pretty sure of though is that if people keep baiting the bear, the bear will bite.

Then again, no one really knows if I am only saying that because I am a Russian spy ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:40 PM

I was a student during the Falklands and Greenham Common era...

A fatalistic sense that "the end of the world is nigh" has been too deeply etched into Psyche of my generation...
So much so, like many of my contemporaries, I decided in my 20s I could never bring children into this world...

Not a very healthy outlook climate to grow up under...
and I can empathise with today's students increasingly turning to Corbyn
for probably very similar fearful reasons....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

Well Dave perhaps if I am right we can hope we both end up as a radioactive mote in the eventual winners eye!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:29 PM

We can all agree on that last sentiment, Iains. Well, I guess we can?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

Did the Russians not announce not so long ago that a poison gas false flag event would occur?
Each time the US talks about de-escalating operations in Syria,up pops another gas attack, just in time.
If Assad is winning the battle, why throw away the war by gassing your own people.

Like novichok, no need for evidence before taking action.

Someone, somewhere desperately wants war. Everyone is getting boxed into a corner. Russia says there will be consequences.

Looks like a situation similar to events preceding WW1 is fast developing. I hope I am proved totally wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:55 PM

BTW bobad, I agree with your last post. Far better than lobbing bombs over the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM

One thing for certain is future [if there is any future beyond this generation...???] historians are going to be well buggered
trying to understand this era of internet accusations, false news, and even more dishonest than ever politicians...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

No I don't 'capish' BB. Nor do I speak faux gangster. Are you saying that there have been no civilian casualties in the attacks of the 'allies' on eastern countries. I find that rather difficult to believe. No innocent civilians killed in Iraq? Palestine? Afghanistan? Are you sure?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

Dave,
but not heard why dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians is a stupid statement yet.

That is because no-one has suggested doing such an evil thing.

PFR,
I reckon any politician who declares war should be immediately arrested for war crimes...

Was Britain wrong to declare war on Hitler in WW2?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:58 AM

One thing that can be done Al is freezing Putin's foreign accounts. It is estimated that he has some 200 billion dollars salted away. That would hit him where it hurts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:47 AM

if Russia did do it.

not a lot we or anybody else can do about it.
we've been fantasizing about our agents and assassins doing the business over there - james bond, george smiley, harry palmer etc for years.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:33 AM

Bruce - while I'm still in hippy idealist mode...

Yes a truly great super-power should act to prevent and stop such genocides,
not turn a blind eye or prolong bloody conflicts for their own interests...


Now back to real world mode....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:16 AM

In some cases, the alternative to war is what happened in Rwanda and Cambodia-


We should have stepped in and prevented those situations, and the attacks on Moslims in the Balkans. But, just as the great powers ignored the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, ( letting Hitler say " Who remembers the Armenians? as he set up the concentrations camps for Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and Communists)) we ignore what we should prevent at the risk of being held responsible by the future.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:14 AM

Bob - don't puzzle tooo hard.. it's not surrealist humour...
but acidently posted in the wrong thread...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:13 AM

Lambrini - the true proletarian bottled plonk...!!!


[actually one chilled bottle aint too bad.. 2 bottles and you begin to feel your teeth disolving...]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:09 AM

bob - anyway, I'll tell you just how hippy dippy idealistic I am...

I reckon any politician who declares war should be immediately arrested for war crimes...

Fortunately in the real world that can never happen,
so bloodthirsty folks can enjoy as many wars as they like
until the final world ending exchange of insults, threats, and WMD.....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:06 AM

DtG,

It is a stupid comment because ( in the past, under Republicans {So Clinton's firing on the aspirin factory is excluded}) the US response is to attack MILITARY forces and installations. IE, when the last gas attack occurred, the base that launched the plane that dropped the bombs was specifically targeted.

So to claim the result is "dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians " is a stupid statement.

Capish?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:04 AM

I'll do it for a Scooby snack. Unless Spot the false news gets to it first.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:01 AM

Bob - it'd have been a lot funnier if you'd just gone "Grrrrrrrrr... pesky punkfolkrock kids...!!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:57 AM

Heard mention of a stupid game but not heard why dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians is a stupid statement yet.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:54 AM

As we all well know punkster is a peace loving old hippy who longs for deterrence against the slaughter of innocent civilians around the world to cease immediately...

See, two can play your stupid game.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:34 AM

PFR - :-D

When I was a lad, Spot was the dog, not the false news...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:29 AM

As we all well know bob is a peace loving old hippy who longs for all violent armed conflicts around the world to cease immediately...



[spot the false news...???]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:25 AM

Dave,
But you do not stop a war with violence. All that does is replaces one war with another.

What about attacking Germany for invading Poland?

If you are right and the chemical attack you describe did take place then Trump and co. will stop one lot of innocent civilians being gassed by dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians.

Last time he attacked the military base that launched the chemical attack. No civilian targets.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:15 AM

Stupid statement? How so?

Dropping bombs on innocent civilians is a by product of war. What is different in this case?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians.

Stupid statement.