BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:46 AM

Cicero wrote: "Silent enim leges inter arma".

Approx. I million died in Vietnam during the late war.
Credible estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 150,000 to 460,000. Other highly disputed estimates, such as the 2006 Lancet study, and the 2007 Opinion Research Business survey, put the numbers as high as 650,000 and 1.2 million respectively

The death toll in Libya when Nato intervened was perhaps around 1,000-2,000 (judging by UN estimates), eight months later it was probably more than ten times that figure. Estimates of the numbers of dead over the following eight months – as Nato leaders vetoed ceasefires and negotiations – range from 10,000 up to 50,000. The National Transitional Council puts the losses at 30,000 dead and 50,000 wounded.
In Syria nearly 1/2 million killed.
During the war in Afghanistan (2001–present), over 31,000 civilian deaths due to war-related violence have been documented; 29,900 civilians have been wounded. Over 111,000 Afghans, including civilians, soldiers and militants, are estimated to have been killed in the conflict
In Yemen 10,000 people have died as a result of the war, over 5,000 of them have been civilians.(That is likely a very low and inaccurate figure.) Cholera and malnutrition add to the death toll.

Moderation has been another casualty in this struggle for power. The wars have resulted in increased Muslim hostility, jihadism and radicalisation. Hard-liners have prevailed, while moderates are marginalised and silenced.
There is Nothing for the WEST TO BE PROUD OF IN THESE CONFLICTS.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 10:26 AM

Landmines were legal once as were many chemicals
The fact that they were permissible does not lessen the inhumanity of those who use them and hiding behind a law makes those who advocate it makes them equally inhuman
We are talking about acts of inhumanity against third war civilians and laws that are passed by those who wage those wars and give themselves permission to wage those wars in any way they see convenient
It's about time we discusses these events in human terms rather than whot politicians decide is permissible or not

Fairly recent report on the use of CLUSTER BOMBS , including by major CUSTOMERS FOR BRITAINS WEAPONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 09:04 AM

Cluster bombs were legal then, and WP still is.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM

IDF Commander: We Fired More Than a Million Cluster Bombs in Lebanon

Phosphorous and cluster bombs heavily used; unexploded munitions litter wide area of Lebanon.

This was a Haaretz article just after the war in 2006 (sorry, you'll have to google it). For those who still think that "decent democracies" don't do such things. Then there's those fighter jets we're selling to Saudi Arabia. Politics before people every time.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM

"Was not going to war on the basis of mythical WMD not a criminal act?"
Absolutely - has there ever been any question of this?
"Bush and Blair still strut the world stage. "
You just said it all Iains
The crass dishonesty of people who defend their Governments right or wrong has just been illustrated perfectly by our resident eejit suggesting that it was acceptable to keep suspects chained up in cages dressed in boiler suits because "no country will take them."
This is the feller who defended obvious serial rapists, pedophiles and sexual predators because they hhad not been tried therefore they were innocent until proven guilty despite their long history of offenses
The man chained up in cages in the boiling sun have never been tried, no evidence has ever been produced against them therefor they are innocent so THEY SHOULD BE PERFECTLY FREE TO RETURN TO THEIR OWN HOMES
Sheessh!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:54 AM

Jim,
Are chemical weapons that we find horrendous enough to go to war for really that much worse than the many thousands of Assad's opponents who were rounded up, tortured and "disappeared"?

No, but because we can not achieve everything is no reason not to act where we can achieve.
Obama rightly made use of chemical weapons a red line.

McGrath,
committed, by countries such as the UK or the USA. They aren't even brought to court.

British and US soldiers have been convicted in their own countries.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM

"War criminals are brought to justice."
Was not going to war on the basis of mythical WMD not a criminal act?
Seems to me it was the innocents received the punishment. Bush and Blair still strut the world stage.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:44 AM

War crimes are never "brought to justice" when they are committed, or alleged to have. Been committed, by countries such as the UK or the USA. They aren't even brought to court. The only countries, or rulers, who are put in the dock are from countries which have been militarily defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 06:17 AM

No intention of entering into a dialogue to respond to your nonsense Keith - Guantanamo was a human rights abuse from day one and remains so
America will never be punished for any of its long history of and continuing war crimes so it is the last state in the world to lead an attack a country committing war crimes that measure small compared to their own
Response to you, over

What needs to be considered is why any of these wars are taking place
Isis arose from the West's refusal to act on appalling crimes against the people of Syria
A positive response to the Arab Spring Protests could have secured genuine change throughout the Arab World, but that did not suit the West's need for an uninterrupted flow of oil and a source of cheap goods for our shops
Not interfering in a "Civil War" is utter bullshit
The same people who were describing intervening in Assad's massacre of his people as "fascism" answer now up on their soap-boxes praising the heroes who flew in and bombed Assad a week ago - twisted logic or an indication of what this is really about
Are chemical weapons that we find horrendous enough to go to war for really that much worse than the many thousands of Assad's opponents who were rounded up, tortured and "disappeared"?
If humanity is the cause of intervening now, why did we vote down the idea of intervening when Assad's snipers were offering a packet of fags to each sniper who could kill a woman and a child with a single bullet on the streets of Homs - and why have those who support this intervention changed their minds?
Rhetorical question - whatever our leaders do is the right thing to some people as long as their shade of politics is "RIGHT"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

The Geneva convention and human rights laws are ignored by anybody when it suits them

Not true. Breaches of Geneva convention are war crimes. War criminals are brought to justice.

What acts of "mass murder" has the world ignored US veto or not?

illegally held 'suspects' in Guantanamo

The problem is that no country will take them.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

"The Geneva convention is ignored by terrorists."
The Geneva convention and human rights laws are ignored by anybody when it suits them
Go look at the number of vetoes used by the US to defend mass- murder, then go count the number of illegally held 'suspects' in Guantanamo
There have been calls from one "democratic country" to close down the International Human Rights courts rather than face trial for its crimes
Blaming terrorists for what they all do is a little shallow
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

Ians and Steve,
The Geneva convention is ignored by terrorists. How is the modern world going to deal with that? Use Daleks perhaps?

Terrorists ignore all the rules, especially in their treatment of civilians.
That is not an argument for the civilised world to abandon the rules too.

We have added to those 20th Century achievements, banning landmines for instance.
Do you two oppose that as well?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM

Can't open your first link Iaians but I hope its's more convincing than your untraceable blog
These arguments need to move beyond throwing blogs at each other and have to take a long view over what is happening taking whole picture into consideration
Frankly, I'm tired of conspiracy theorists accusing other conspiracy theorists of conspiracy theories
It reduces the whole ting to a Mad Comics CARTOON STRIP
DR Strangelove was always the one that rang my bells
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:26 AM

The Geneva convention is ignored by terrorists. How is the modern world going to deal with that? Use Daleks perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:20 AM

It seems a pretty artificial distinction to me.

To the rest of the world the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of war were a triumph for humanity.
Wars are still horrific but suffering has been reduced thanks to that achievement.

If we say anything goes just because we can not abolish all war and all weaopnry we take a huge step backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM

In order for the evidence that has mounted up against both Assad and Russia to be a 'conspiracy'. the conspirators would have to have a massive, well-oiled conspiracy-machine consisting of propagandists, scientists, acting teachers to rehearse the witnesses, finances to bribe the Human Rights groups, rescue teams, journalists....... regular meetings in order to be singing from one hymn sheet.... a world wide conspiracy organisation in fact
When you watch Trump publicly arm-wrestling with Stormy Daniels and attempting to suppress her ****-and-tell information in the cack-handed way he is you realise how unlikely that is.
Russia has been behaving in the ruthless manner it has since the fall of Communism, it has become as sophisticated corrupt as any other "free, decent and democratic" country
These is the way these countries have always operated against their enemies - Britain included, and certainly the U.S, (100 failed assassination attempts on Castro and a record of successful ones on other 'inconvenients')
It is well within Russia's capabilities to have carried out what i is accused of and there is no reason for them not to have done so.
I watched the Labour Party representative on Question Time last night giving what I presume what is the party line on the American-led raid
She said she believed that Russia and Assad were guilty of what they were accused of, but in order to prevent it happening again it was necessary to nail the evidence first - makes sense to me!
The waar against Iis appears to have been won, but Assad has yet to extract his revenge on those who opposed him - and he will - he cannot afford not to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

"The U.S, has survived as an international power by drawing support from history's monsters"

"Isis is a terrorist group with aims far beyond the downfall of the Assad regime, though many of their supporters were drawn in because of the vacuum left by the West's inaction - indifference even."

The first statement true to an extent.
The second statement perhaps a total distortion! The truth is likely far murkier. There are many rumours about support for Isis from "unlikely???" sources. Below a typical example of such   heinous lies?

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/isis-was-state-sponsored-by-us-allies-says-former-government-intelligence-analyst-exclus

add the article below to the p(l)ot, and where oh where is the truth???

http://theduran.com/stunning-coincidence-chlorine-containers-from-germany-and-smoke-bombs-manufactured-in-salisbury-skripal-pois

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:10 PM

In the US we do not have this debate in the media whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 08:02 PM

"The greatest remaining declared stockpile of such weapons is in the US."
Can't disagree with that Iains - that's why I would never use the term "U.S." and "allies" in the same sentence, but it really isn't as simple as that and it most certainly doesn't let Assad off the hook
The U.S, has survived and an international power by drawing support from history's monsters - Batista in Cuba who turned the Island into "America's open sewer" where American tourists went to watch Cuban girls being screwed by animals, Papa Doc's Haiti, kept in order by the killer, Tonton Macoute, South Vietnam's Hitler admiring Marshal Nguyen Cao Ky, mass killer and torturer, Augusto Pinochet, armed financed and supported by the CIA....
All these were "safe pairs of hands" for the U.S., though in moments of weakness it was admitted, "they may be monsters, but they're OUR OUR MONSTERS"
I believe Assad to be one of these - pointing at the crimes of the U.S. in so way changes that fact
"Terrorists"
Terrorism is a fact of all major conflicts - it is a tactic used in every war by the weakest groups against the stronger- Trotsky wrote a fascinating pamphlet on the subject - (no - I am not a Trot) - one sides term is "terrorism" - the other side's "guerilla warfare"
Isis is a terrorist group with aims far beyond the downfall of the Assad regime, though many of their supporters were drawn in because of the vacuum left by the West's inaction - indifference even.
In the long run, the interests of the people as a whole over-ride all this - nothing will ever erase the Assad family's record on that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:44 PM

And though I'm Peter Hitchens' number seven-billion fan, he was absolutely spot on tonight on This Week in demanding evidence for the alleged chemical attacks in Syria. I promise to fall out with him again very quickly...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:07 PM

I agree with that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Jim I do not doubt that any rational person would like to see chemical weapons banned. But to play high and mighty with the Syrian regime while ignoring fully documented cases among our "allies" rings a little hollow. The greatest remaining declared stockpile of such weapons is in the US.
I think the playing field needs to be leveled and the impartiality of OPCW reports insisted on. More than a few conclusions are based on circumstantial rather than actual evidence. As I said earlier, the language of these reports needs to be studied carefully.

If the same level of publicity was given to alleged Saudi transgressions in the Yemen, as those in Syria,I might have more confidence in the present system. The terrorists in Syria are also guilty. How often is that fact given publicity? The only devil incarnate is Assad according to the heavily biased mainstream media.

It seems to me the bias in reporting is "encouraged" and is merely a device to enable further acts of war against Syria. Such future action should be clearly permitted by UN agreement.
The existing inspection regime is clearly not working properly.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/cbwprolif

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM

I CONFESS
White Phosphorus FAMILY ALBUM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 02:30 PM

"When used properly in open areas, white phosphorus munitions are not illegal, but the Human Rights Watch report concludes that the IDF repeatedly exploded it unlawfully over populated neighborhoods, killing and wounding civilians and damaging civilian structures, including a school, a market, a humanitarian aid warehouse, and a hospital. "
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

The Lancet
"White phosphorus burn
Loai Nabil Al Barqouni'Correspondence information about the author Loai Nabil Al BarqouniEmail the author Loai Nabil Al Barqouni
, Sobhi I Skaik, FRCSEd
, Nafiz R Abu Shaban, MSc
, Nabil Barqouni, CABP
Published: 03 July 2010
In January, 2009, an 18-year-old man presented to the emergency department after suffering an attack with an incendiary shell. He had many painful patches of full-thickness burns, which were surrounded by sloughed tissue. His wounds covered 30% of his body surface area, and were distributed on both upper and lower limbs, and his right shoulder. There were no signs of inhalation burns. After a clinical diagnosis of white phosphorus burns was made, the airway was secured, resuscitation fluid was initiated, and wounds were irrigated with diluted sodium bicarbonate solution before wet dressing."
The Lancet 2010
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/09/19/saudi-arabia-appears-to-be-using-u-s-supplied-white-phosphorus-in-its-war-in-yemen/?utm_term=.1cf789864178

UK USED W P in IRAQ

If White Phosphorus is not a banned weapon if ***** well should be

Now let's hear the excuses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

I think we could argue at cross purposes for ever. It seems a pretty artificial distinction to me. High explosive is a chemical as is Uranium235. It is bit of an argument over semantics in reality, rather like barrel bombs. A bomb is a bomb, is a bomb.
The actual wording below is far from precise.
https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/article-ii-definitions-and-criteria/

http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13940721001520
Will the OPCW be in any rush to check out the above?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 01:05 PM

Charlie Dunlap, J.D. may dispute that WP use is always legal, but under international law WP is not an illegal weapon.

Chlorine and Sarin are.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 12:15 PM

Keith; The arguments laid out quite thoroughly.

I draw your attention to the "shake at bake" testimony included. Drive opponents out of their trenches with phosphorus and blow them to pieces with HE.(After-Action Review (AAR) for the Battle of Fallujah, ¶9b, reprinted in FIELD ARTILLERY 23, 26 (Mar.-Apr. 2005)

https://sites.duke.edu/lawfire/2016/09/29/white-phosphorus-sometimes-can-be-lawfully-employed-as-an-anti-personnel-weaponbut-sho

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 07:36 AM

I have no doubt water is a chemical weapon when used for waterboarding!

It does not rely on its chemistry for its effect, and waterboarding is a form of torture not warfare.

WP is not an illegal weapon.

It is forbidden for use against civilians as well as legitimate military targets that happen to be in a major civilian population center

That is true of all weapons, not just WP.

. The staus of white phosphorus is disputed.

By who? WP is not an illegal weapon. Chlorine and Sarin, both confirmed to have been used by Assad, are.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 05:29 AM

WP is not an illegal weapon. Not strictly true. It depends on the nature of the weapon containing it and if civilian areas are being targeted.
It is forbidden for use against civilians as well as legitimate military targets that happen to be in a major civilian population center if the munition is delivered by air. This is due to its incendiary effect.( I do not fully comprehend the air bit. grenade, shell, bomb, rocket all arrive by air and if an IED kills or injures civilians it is still illegal) As white phosphorus is pyrophoric it keeps burning until used up and can cause horrendous injuries. The staus of white phosphorus is disputed.


Israeli Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006), which explains:

A chemical weapon is a weapon intended to work on the systems of life and is constituted from a substance that causes a chemical reaction in the body expressed in such symptoms as asphyxiation, burning, weeping, etc., whereas phosphorous is an element in nature which reacts to the oxygen in the air by catching fire. In that respect, phosphorous is no different from petrol (gasoline) reacting to a lighted match, and what differentiates it from chemical weapons is that its reaction is not directed against the human physiology in particular, it will burn whatever it touches. (so that's ok then!That is one hell of a justification!)

I have no doubt water is a chemical weapon when used for waterboarding!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 18 - 04:21 AM

Ians,
Assad probably has used chemicals in the past, but were they deliberately targeting non combatants?

Even if civilians were not targeted the use of chemical weapons is banned by international law.

I wonder why coalition use of white phosphoros....

WP is not an illegal weapon.
It is illegal to target civilians with anything.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 03:32 PM

Keith I have no problem with the OPCW methodology of taking samples and sending them to independent labs for verification. I have carried out the same procedure myself in the past for base metal content in soil samples. It is a pretty standard procedure if you want to crosscheck results. The primary function of the OPCW is identification of chemicals. The problem arises when determining who manufactured the chemicals and who was in charge of the delivery system? Two very different things. You also need to consider were the attacks targeting
terrorists or civilians? You also need to consider the impartiality of the inspectors on the ground and their qualifications for accurate analysis of a hole in the ground and attributing it to specific munitions. I am sure Assad probably has used chemicals in the past, but were they deliberately targeting non combatants? The Syrian Iraqi
border is porous and munitions can come in from everywhichwhere, including liberated government stockpiles. If the crazies line people up to chop off heads, they obviously have little compunction in gassing civilians wholesale, in order to deceive.
Having read a number of the reports some are emphatic in assigning blame, some are shall we say Dubious. As a battlefield scenario gassing your own people in the winning stages is the hallmark of stupidity and fits no sort of rationale.

I wonder why coalition use of white phosphoros in in densely populated areas of Mosul and in the Islamic State's de facto capital of Raqqa, does not raise the same levels of opprobrium on the (western)World Stage? The mainstream media can suffer very selective amnesia at times!

Many times I largely agree with you, but this time around the propagandists have hijacked the narrative and you are falling for it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 02:41 PM

Keith surely you do not expect me to believe something just because it is in Wiki?

No. Tell me which bits you question and I will provide chapter and verse.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 12:19 PM

Keith surely you do not expect me to believe something just because it is in Wiki?
As an example of an OPCW report:
The release of sarin at Khan Shay khun on 4 April 2017.basically comes down to the sarin probably belonged to the Syrian Arab Republic.
The crater was probably formed by a bomb rather than IED
Syrian Arab aircraft were in the vicinity that day, therefore they are probably the guilty party.


Probably does not equate with unequivocally!

Extracted from United Nations /2017/904
Security Council
26 October 2017
Letter dated 26 October 2017 from the Secretary General
addressed to the President of the Security Council

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 11:30 AM

ANOTHER "SELF-HATING" JEWISH VIEW
jIM cARROLL

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 11:21 AM

"We will take down the border and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies"
Are you seriously suggesting that a bunch of unarmed Gazan protestors are capable of fulfilling such a threat - or that they consider that hey could do it?
You stretch our credulity way beyond the limit
The Isreali armed forces are well trained and well armed with the latest weapons - and nuclear facilitated
The best the protesters have come up with so far are catapults
This excuse is as old as Lidice
If I had seen our homes and hospitals hospiatls razed to the ground, our wives and children murdered and our land taken from us as often as the Palestinians have this is exactly the kind of threat I would make
You are transparent in your defence of the indefensible Bobad
A SELF-HATING view of the conflict
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 11:03 AM

Ians,
"We know for a fact that Assad has used such weapons before."
perhaps we do perhaps we do not.

We do!
Wiki,
"In August 2016, a report[1] by the United Nations and the OPCW explicitly blamed the Syrian military of Bashar al-Assad for dropping chemical weapons (chlorine bombs) on the towns of Talmenes in April 2014 and Sarmin in March 2015 and ISIS for using sulfur mustard on the town of Marea in August 2015.[3] Several other attacks have been alleged, reported and/or investigated."

"The third report(The UN-OPCW Joint Investigative Mechanism) blamed the Syrian government for two gas attacks in 2015, and accused ISIS of using mustard gas.[99] In October 2016 the leaked fourth report of task force determined that the Syria had conducted at least three gas attacks in 2015.[99]
In January 2017, they declared that they had composed a list of those responsible for using chemical weapons in the war. The list, which has not been made public, is divided into three sections. The first, is titled "Inner-Circle President" and has six people, including Assad, his brother, the defense minister and the head of military intelligence. The second section names the air force chief and its four commanders, including the heads of the 22nd Air Force Division and the 63rd Helicopter Brigade. The last section titled "Other relevant Senior Mil Personnel" includes two colonels and major-generals. This they said indicates that the decision to use gas came from the very top.[100]"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 10:49 AM

"It's quite simple really."
It is indeed Bobad
I'll stick with Iains
"33 Palestinians dead and more than 4279 injured since 30 March,"
rather than your pro Israeli terrorist propaganda if its all the same with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 10:38 AM

Unfortunately peacekeepers have an impossible job in that region...???
... and a world police force is a needed but utterly unrealistic dream...

Eternally warring factions will eventually drag the rest of the world down the shit hole with them...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 10:21 AM

I wonder what is happening in Gaza?

It's quite simple really.

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has declared the purpose of the demonstrations in his statement: "We will take down the border and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies"

The Israelis are stopping that from happening.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 09:51 AM

I wonder what is happening in Gaza? 33 Palestinians dead and more than 4279 injured since 30 March, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. The escalating violence has also led to the injury of 41 health staff, of whom 3 were injured by bullets, with 13 ambulances damaged by bullets.

We are all being diverted away from events there. Why would that be?
and to put Syrian events in perspective:   
From last year:
The US-led coalition has admitted killing at least 484 civilians in air strikes in Syria and Iraq amid concern over potential war crimes in the battle to drive Isis out of Mosul. US Central Command (CentCom) insisted it “takes extraordinary efforts to strike military targets in a manner that minimises the risk of ..   collateral.....

Those pots and kettles must be in a permanent state of confusion!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 09:15 AM

...and presumably, predictably, Trident will become yet again, a big stick to beat down with upon 'Ruskie lover' Corbyn...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

I've not heard much in the news about Trident lately...

This latest trumped up playground bickering with Russia
probably means we will be hearing much more in favour of it as we get nearer to elections...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:58 AM

"Such is the world we live in. "
I'm fully aware of the fouled up planet we live on Ians
These are weapons deliberately targeted to kill and maim human beings - in the case of some, for generations to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 08:32 AM

Pfr Many years ago I had a temporary site office on a farm in the SW, where spraying occurred. Shortly after I had fairly severe Iritis for around 10 days. No other symptoms, no other sensible explanation. Also on two occasions while flying(out of hundreds)I have had symptoms of going into shock, lasting for several hours. I take no medication, have not seen a doctor for decades(apart from work medicals)and have no obvious explanation. I can only surmise that over time I have become sensitised to certain levels of contaminants in cabin air. The world health organisation have carried out studies supporting this idea.
Better not talk about the fumes released by a new car, or some plastic household materials.
Such is the world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

"But where does it end. GM food so "less" chemicals sprayed on it?"
Cannot possible be compared to chemicals designed to destroy crops
In the case of Agent Orange, the pilots dropping the stuff were flying home to die of cancer they contacted
WHITE PHOSPHORUS
NOT ONLY RUSSIA AND SYRIA
EFFECTS

Must go easy on the Brussels sprouts!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 07:01 AM

Spring of 2000, the year I moved back to the West Country from London,
I went out for a leisurly cycle rediscovering country lanes from boyhood...
I was pedaling alongside fields when I was suddenly struck by severe symptoms
I could perhaps liken to how I imagine the effects of tear gas stricken victims.

I struggled to cycle home in great discomfort,
then was stuck in the house incapacitated for a few days..
It's a long time ago to remember back to,
But I think I felt weakened for quite a few weeks afterwards...

What was that then, pollen.. ? pestecides...???

I didn't bother going to the Dr for a check up, just shrugged it off manfully,,,

So I'll never know what caused that period of illness...

Ever since then I've been hyper sensitive to strong perfumes
and synthetic scented air feshners in pubs and other public places.

Even 'safe' chemical products are a serious problem to many ordinary folks...

Far more stringent controls should be placed on their manufacture and irresponsible use..
not just the evil weaponised chemical agents...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 06:24 AM

But where does it end. GM food so "less" chemicals sprayed on it?
No white phophorus for smoke grenades;
Do we not perform chemical warfare regularly on arable lands?
Where was the outcry when sheep farmers were poisoned by organo phosphorus sheep dip. Did all those bee colonies collapse all on their ownsome, or did we have a hand in it?

What gives a farmer the right to exterminate pests? Some treat foxes as cuddly pets. Some eevn hug trees! Do people stop driving because of the pollutants they spray from their vehicles?
You ain't gonna feed the world by putting the genie back in the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 05:50 AM

"perhaps we do perhaps we do not."
You may choose not to know - little doubt elsewhere
The fact that Isis uses similar only puts the two on par
There is no justification for these weapons or similar - this includes past uses of napalm and Agent Orange and more recently, white phosphorus or chemical sprays to drive farmers off their lands - all acts of barbarism by modern-day barbarians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 05:29 AM

"We know for a fact that Assad has used such weapons before."
perhaps we do perhaps we do not.

What we do know, and has been confirmed by the OPCW, is that the liquorice allsorts that is isis has fabricated cylinder bombs and launch vehicles. Anyone with a bit of knowledge and a walmart welder could fabricate the same in a relatively low tech workshop. That is fact.

and confirmed in the daily wail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2860469/Syrian-rebels-strike-HELL-CANNON-Aleppo-s-besieged-residents-construct-devastati

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/gallery/hell-cannon-ultimate-home-made-weaponry-4748810
UN report

https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/sc13060.doc.htm

Read the language carefully! Note all the caveats. Proof is an elusive beast. Some of those conclusions would have problems with a jury if a conviction was required!

However as Lavrov states: "highly likely" is a new invention of British diplomacy to describe why they punish people – because these people are highly likely guilty, like in Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll when he described a trial. And when they discovered that the jury could be engaged, then the King said "Let's ask the jury" and the Queen shouted "No jury! Sentence first – verdict afterwards." That's the logic of "highly likely".

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 18 - 04:01 AM

Ians,

Do you reckon that represents the acme of Russian missile development brought in to aid Assad, or do you think a pointy head headlopper knocked it up in his garden shed?

No, and neither do they include barrel bombs in their arsenal.
We know for a fact that Assad has used such weapons before.

Steve, it may not be proved to your satisfaction, but what decent democratic government shares your doubts?
You are just desperate to believe that the West is bad and anti-Western regimes good.
You condemn Israel on far less evidence.