BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 09:17 AM

“An individual, a group, a party, or a class that ‘objectively’ picks its nose while it watches men drunk with blood massacring defenceless people is condemned by history to rot and become worm-eaten while it is still alive.”

What Trotsky said about Miliukov and his party in 1912 can well be said about Corbyn today.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:50 AM

btw.. seriously who does he think still remembers much at all about Trotsky, without heading to wiki, if they an be bothered...

I swear the rabid right is more obsessed with commie politicians from the long gone past
than any sensible folks I know...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:46 AM

Trotsky...!!!?????

errrmm... it's 2018 if Canadian media needs reminding.. not 1918...

Though, 2018 / 1918... could be easy for an older jounalist to get confused
if not woken up properly, and can't find reading glasses...

I bought my mum a Dementia friendly clock so she can keep daily track of what year it is...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:30 AM

"What would Trotsky have to say about the U.K.'s Jeremy Corbyn?"
From The Nation Post
The National Post is a Canadian daily newspaper. It was founded in 1998 by Conrad Black (Canadian fraudster and answer to Rupert Murdoch) with the intent of countering what he saw as the "over-liberalizing" of editorial policy in Canadian newspapers, being built from the bones of the Financial Post, which Black bought from Sun Media (Canada's answer to News Corp) in 1997.
Given this pedigree, the Post's editorial stance tends toward the reactionary end of the conservative spectrum, but due to the sober (if not always neutral) tone of its news reporting, the Toronto Sun and its exclamatory headlines beat it for the title of Canada's answer to the New York Post.
Its owner, Postmedia, also owns most of the provincial newspapers (including both of British Columbia's papers) and maintains an iron grip on their editorial content (hence the reactionary slant). One of the most infamous cases of this was the Edmonton Journal endorsing the widely reviled Progressive Conservative party in the 2015 Alberta Election without its writers knowing.

What else would such a paper say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 08:01 AM

And just this week, another atrocity, the poison-gas barrel bomb massacre of more than 40 Syrians in the besieged district of Douma, has obliged Corbyn to return to his excuses and prevarications about Iran’s bloodthirsty satrapy in Damascus.

Mustn’t rush to judgment about what happened last weekend, Corbyn has insisted. Can’t be blaming Assad for that. Evidence, old chap. Which is exactly what Corbyn said when Assad’s bombers dropped sarin gas on the town of Khan Shaykhun last April. In that incident, more than 70 people were suffocated to death, according to the judgment of the UN’s Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. But no, again, we mustn’t rush to judgment, says Jeremy Corbyn.

A proper independent investigation is needed, Corbyn again insists, strangely overlooking the dozen UN Security Council resolutions on Syria vetoed by Russia, most recently on Tuesday, in a veto that quashed a resolution that would have cleared the way for just such an investigation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The World Health Organization, the Syria Violations Documentation Centre, the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations and several other agencies have painted a clear and precise picture of what happened in Douma on Saturday. Barrel bombs were dropped at two locations, within blocks of one another. Within hours, more than 500 people were suffering unmistakable signs of poison gas suffocation. At least 42 of them have died.

The barrel bombs were dropped from helicopters. There are no rebel forces with helicopters in Syria. This was no “false flag,” no matter what the Kremlin says. No “paid actors” were involved, no matter what the American alt-right says or the “anti-imperialist” left says, and there are no “peace talks” to join, no matter what Jeremy Corbyn says.

What would Trotsky have to say about the U.K.'s Jeremy Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 07:32 AM

Labour's "conviction that Russia did it"
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has accused the government of “waiting for instructions” from Donald Trump adding that military intervention risks “escalating an already devastating conflict”. He also called for a UN-led investigation of the chemical weapons attack in Douma.
Until there is proof positive, I suggest that this is the stance taken by every reasonable power
To suggest otherwise is lynch-mob' politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 06:50 AM

Ians,
Keith I think the argument revolves around clear unequivocal proof.

It has been proved to the satisfaction of every EU nation, plus Canada, Australia, the US and all the other well informed liberal democracies in the world, plus the Labour Party's leadership.

The people here still claiming to disbelieve what is obviously a fact do so from their own extreme political agenda.

Dave,
It's just that alternative views are available, Iains.

What credible sources are expressing an alternative view?

I am just not as certain as some that our elected representatives are to be trusted!

It is not just ours though Dave. All the great democracies are agreed on this. Only you extremists pretend to believe Putin over them.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM

Our "elected" representative, elected only in the sense of her having put together a hasty and grubby coalition lest we forget, routinely acts first and foremost in her own political interests. She is weak and vulnerable and she knows that whupping far-distant foreigners who her own electorate don't really get to see much of is a cast-iron way of strengthening her hand...she thinks. But we don't live any more in the world of the six o'clock news delivered by a complicit and pliable Beeb. We have it from multiple sources around the clock and we have social media and there are correspondents on the ground in Syria. Democracy demands a fierce reaction to what she's done and the cross-examining should pick her apart. All power to the opposition parties in these regards.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

It's just that alternative views are available, Iains. I am just not as certain as some that our elected representatives are to be trusted!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:57 AM

Keith I think the argument revolves around clear unequivocal proof. The chemical has been identified (we are told) Experts tell us it is not a difficult synthesis. It is pure. Therefore any telltale contaminants that might identify location just are not there. No one can prove who made it!
Therefore this presents a problem. Many people believe in God. Are they correct or misguided? How many wars have been started as a result of deliberate "lies"
We deliberately carried out an act of war on the basis of if, buts and maybe's. Might be good enough for you, but not for me. If people are going to killed in my name I do not think it unreasonable to demand incontrovertible proof, especially if I am expected to take the word of MP snake oil salesmen.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:51 AM

Your Japan Times piece is from March 15 (!) and opens,
"The British government says Russia is to blame for poisoning former spy Sergei Skripal with a nerve agent, and most chemical weapons specialists agree."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:48 AM

Your WIRED piece 10th March!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:46 AM

Your NYT piece is 2 weeks old!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:43 AM

So Dave, do any of them suggest Russia did not do it?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

Japan times

MOSCOW/AMSTERDAM – The British government says Russia is to blame for poisoning former spy Sergei Skripal with a nerve agent, and most chemical weapons specialists agree.

But they also say an alternative explanation cannot be ruled out: that the nerve agent got into the hands of people not acting for the Russian state.

Wired

This does open the door to a final, somewhat unlikely, theory. It could be the case that some non-state actor has used a nerve agent precisely to draw suspicion towards Russia. “If you were some kind of troublemaker who wanted to make Russia look bad, this would be a way of doing it,” Guthrie says.

New York Times

British Lab Has Not Identified ‘Precise Source’ of Poison in Spy Case

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 18 - 03:49 AM

Our anti-West far-Left fanatics here can not admit that Putin's regime is far nastier than any Western government, with its history of state murder and lying.

You nit-pick at the evidence but it remains overwhelming, and you are unable to find any source other than RT not convinced by it.
Russia attacked the Skripals in Salisbury.

You will never admit it, but you know it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:36 PM

Nothing to see here! Move along folks! Absolutely no criminal involvement!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 12:02 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 11:51 AM

Oh ye of little faith!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 11:42 AM

"Jim, don't fall for it! "
Thanks Dave and Rag
I have no intention of responding to Keith ever again (one day at a time as AA says)
I see no reason not to back-heel him in passing, but I'll keep that to a minimum
Helps to relieve the gloom of common sense
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:54 AM

Hoop alert !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 09:48 AM

Jim, don't fall for it! We all know it will just end up in one of those stupid circular arguments which will go on until the thread is closed in desperation :-(

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:49 AM

Jim,
"Who in their right mind would ever dream of trusting them? "
Unless they're Syrian or Russian, of course!!

Your willingness to pretend to believe Russian and Syrian politicians over Western democratically elected politicians is disturbing.

Presumably although Russia has abandoned even the pretence of being socialist, their antagonism to the democratic West still gains the allegiance of extreme Left anti-West fanatics like you and others here.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

"Who in their right mind would ever dream of trusting them? "
Unless they're Syrian or Russian, of course!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM

If Boris had lied on this, the opposition would rightly demand his resignation.
They do not.

If Putin has lied, nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

Dave in this case I think corbyn is the only one taking the sanity medication.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:17 AM

No one should as far as I can see, Iains. I have hopes for Corbyn but I suspect we may disagree on that.

Boris lies

Boris condemns lies

I should really commend that man. He never fails me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 08:14 AM

three or four billion people believe in God and they're all wrong

Please note the distinction between "believe" and "reasoning"..........you're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:57 AM

I fink most politicians are delusional, many fanatical, and some definitely psychopathic. Who in their right mind would ever dream of trusting them?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 07:01 AM

Dave,
Of course my other sources are top secret so you just have to trust me that they are right.

I do not trust you or Putin, but when the evidence is so powerful as to convince every EU nation, plus Canada, Australia, the US and all the other well informed liberal democracies in the world, plus the Labour Party's leadership, I trust.

Only a delusional political fanatic would believe all those decent nations are involved in a lying conspiracy over this.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:50 AM

I have combined the scientific proof that there are some idiots on Mudcat with information from other sources and I now know who the main idiot is. Of course my other sources are top secret so you just have to trust me that they are right.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

Russia did this bizarre video http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/262044-elderly-obama-kerry-featured-in-bizarre-russian-media-video

?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:38 AM

I guess the previous argument was a tad uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:11 AM

Guardian,
"Putin: The New Tsar review – a portrait of a lonely, lying narcissist
   
Stuffed with insight and bizarre anecdotes, this documentary about the Russian president could almost be funny if it weren’t so scary"
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/mar/10/putin-the-new-tsar-review-bbc2

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:09 AM

Dave's link,

"Gary Aitkenhead, the chief executive of the government’s Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL), said the poison had been identified as a military-grade novichok nerve agent, which could probably be deployed only by a nation state.
Aitkenhead said the government had reached its conclusion that Russia was responsible for the Salisbury attack by combining the laboratory’s scientific findings with information from other sources.
The UK government moved quickly to make it clear that the prime minister, Theresa May, had always been clear the assessment from Porton Down was “only one part of the intelligence picture”."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 05:05 AM

Porton Down experts unable to verify precise source of novichok

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:44 AM

Dave,
I still believe that the scientists say that they cannot confirm who manufactured and delivered the agent.

Only because their remit does not permit them to.
They got round it by saying they confirmed UK scientists' conclusions.

politicians who have a vested interest in it being the Russians

They do not. There interest is in exposing the culprit of an attempted double murder using nerve gas in a UK town.

The evidence must be convincing because it has convinced every EU nation, plus Canada, Australia, the US and all the other well informed liberal democracies in the world, plus the Labour Party's leadership.

The only doubters are enemies of our Western democracies like you extremists here.

Steve,
four billion people believe in God and they're all wrong. I won't try to impress you with a long list of their names.

A short list of some believers you may have heard of,
JF Kennedy, Martin Luther King. Barack Obama, Nelson Mandela, ....
All fools?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 18 - 04:04 AM

As I keep saying, bobad, three or four billion people believe in God and they're all wrong. I won't try to impress you with a long list of their names.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 05:47 PM

It is indeed, No bad :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:59 PM

It's a good thing that those whose opinions matter are capable of deductive reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:54 PM

From the daily wail
Former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were saved from death because the deadly nerve agent smeared on their front door was 'washed off by the rain'.
Ex-Russian scientist Vil Mirzayanov says in such weather conditions this substance could be used only by an idiot who knows nothing about the chemical characteristics of Novichok.

Was he a useful idiot or useless idiot??




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5616859/Novichok-Salisbury-hitman-failed-kill-Skripals-raining.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:35 PM

I still believe that the scientists say that they cannot confirm who manufactured and delivered the agent. That being the case, why do those politicians who have a vested interest in it being the Russians not dispute that claim? Apart from BoJo of course who would not know the truth if it but him on the bum.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:22 PM

the bobad/Bruce/Keith lynch mob school of thought

You left you list incomplete Shaw, allow me to complete it for you:

Every EU nation, plus Canada, Australia, the US and all the other well informed liberal democracies in the world, plus the Labour Party's leadership.

There, that should cover it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Donuel, if you can't be open-minded here you shouldn't join in. You appear to be blindly and opportunistically anti-Russia and that is a stance that gets us precisely nowhere. Some of us simply want to get to the bottom of what's been going on, to be told the truth. You appear to be an aficionado of the bobad/Bruce/Keith lynch mob school of thought. It's very unhelpful.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:47 PM

For Keef:


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/01/world/europe/russia-sergei-skripal-uk-spy-poisoning.html


https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/knobs-and-knockers/

It will be interesting to see how parliament reacts to all this.
Why the three line whip I wonder?
Beware the ides of april mayhap?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:39 PM

PFR, can you challenge anything I have said?
Please specify anything I got wrong instead of just attacking me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 01:06 PM

There also remains the possibility that "Keith A of Hertford" is now a team sharing crib sheet pre-fab scripted arguments,
and perhaps even a log-in ID...?????

Ah.... the wonders of the marvelous internet age...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM

I concur Keith

The possibility remains that Iains only wants us to believe he is a Russian social media provocateur.


naah

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 11:56 AM

A swiss lab claims the nerve agent is a Nato product

Really? I will trust OPCW over this supposed "Swiss lab."

The latest jolly jape is that the rain washed the poison off the doorhandle and therefore degraded it.

Really? Even if true how would that be relevant? Who is claiming it?

Photographs show a poison gas cylinder supposedly on a roof, beside a hole made by something of very different construction.

Huh?

Need I continue?
It is very convenient to toe the party line.

No-one is toeing a party line.
Everyone except RT and the dominant extremists here accept the obvious truth.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Apr 18 - 04:16 AM

Keith the entire exercise is a means to an end.
A swiss lab claims the nerve agent is a Nato product, the coalition claims it is Russian.
The latest jolly jape is that the rain washed the poison off the doorhandle and therefore degraded it. Strange that the house shown has a canopy/porch over the front door.
Photographs show a poison gas cylinder supposedly on a roof, beside a hole made by something of very different construction. The photo indicates nothing of the sort, it could equally be a ground floor with ordnance penetration into a basement.

Need I continue?

It is very convenient to toe the party line.

In war the first casualty is truth.

I repeat my original argument from many months ago. If Assad is winning why invite a worldwide condemnation by gassing his own people.
Especially when mopping up the last pocket of resistance in the area.

The attacks would have occurred anyway. If not this pretext then another. The neocon blueprint was laid out years ago. Russia has thrown a spoke into it. Syria, Iran, then Russia.
Strange that a similar argument to mine on sky TV was pulled.
Try joining a few dots, instead of blindly following the herd.