BS: Alfie Evans

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

We have not heard the last of [fill in name of next terminally ill child being cared for by dedicated medical specialists...]'s Army of cretins...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:54 AM

The Pope was very wrong to get involved by offering any 'solution' to little Alfie's predicament. There WAS no solution. And it gave false hopes to his parents, a young, vulnerable couple sinking under the despair of losing a child. Of course they would clutch at any straw offered them.

I expect after some time of continuing with ventilation etc even the Vatican hospital would have come to exactly the same conclusions as the experts at Alder Hey. After merely prolonging the agony for the parents and probably for the poor child too.

I have been keeping the couple in my thoughts, and hoping they are gradually getting some peace and closure. The circus of fools should leave them alone, stop posturing and find something more worthy to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM

And what benefit, I wonder, would there have been by transfering Alfie to a Vatican hospital other than papal benefit from media lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:20 PM

Exactly Jim. And those who think it necessary to have their girls genitally mutilated (which occurs more frequently than the authorities care to admit, and for which crime there has been not a single prosecution)
It seems obvious to me that in some cases parents' 'rights' over their offspring should be overruled by the Courts, always in the best interests of the children of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:01 PM

"That ridiculous Alfie's Army "
I have to say that I one of the things I found most offensive was the child carrying a placard saying "Free Alfie Evans", as if the hospital was holding him captive - sick in the extreme.
Whenever I hear the "parents know what's best" for a child I think of those loving parents who would rather let their children die before they would consent to a blood transfusion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:54 PM

That ridiculous Alfie's Army released hundreds of plastic balloons today, thus polluting the countryside around Liverpool.
Truckloads of ghastly fluffy teddy bears and bunches of flowers have been piling up in a park near to Alder Hey hospital.
I hope now they'll disappear and find something else to do using social media.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

"I suspect Alder Hey specialist medical staff and Admin may be made of stronger integrity and genuine concern for patient well being."
An amazing hospital with a sound reputation for Children's health as I know from my family's experiences
The problems with today's healthcare is invariably the pressure to stay within budgets and meet targets rather than failures of the staff
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:12 AM

Poor little soul. RIP.

I hope in time his parents can come to terms with this.
I also feel for the staff at Alder Hey - I admire them for the very difficult work they undertake. The last few days must have been terribly hard for them too.

And you're right DMcG, many issues raised by this tragic case have not been resolved. I expect there will be several meetings in various quarters to try and work out policies for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:26 AM

RIP To Alfie. Let us indeed hope his parents can take some comfort from how hard they worked for him, and the medical staff also get some respite.


But I must point out the issues raised are not resolved. There could be a similar case anytime and as a society we are no nearer to working out how to balance the decisions between parents, medical staff and the legal system.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:18 AM

I see the poor little mite passed away overnight. Very sad but at least he is no longer in pain or distress. We can only hope his parents find peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:01 PM

I'm sure that real concern is sincerely felt by the Alder Hay hospital for Alfie as their patient, and that it is a major part of their motivation for resisting his moving to another hospital. But he is not "their patient" now - and when he was, being "their patient" in no way meant any kind of ownership.

In some ways it might indeed have been easier to accept the wishes of his parents. But that does not mean that to refuse to accept those wishes was right, because it was harder. Sometimes the easier course can be the right course.

Though it would indeed not be all that easy a course - in fact to admit that your views should be overuled is extremely difficult for professionals, and to change course is even harder. It is not just politicians who pride themselves for not making u-turns, or would boast of having no reverse gear.

I just cannot see on what basis the hospital feels its duty of care for Alfie outweighs and replaces that of his parents, just because they entrusted him to them, and to prevent them from entrusting him to another hospital. And I cannot see on what basis the courts should support the hospital's decision, rather than the parents' choice.

Stuff about how protesters behave, or about who might support or oppose the parents are completely irrelevant here. It invites a descent into the kind of tribalism and package deal ethics I referred to in a previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

McGraph - Yeah.. you are making your theoretical point of principle..
which seems now, if I understand you correctly, to be more in line with the fringes of this sad medical case...

It sure would have been easier, perhaps tempting, for Alder Hey
to say "Get Alfie in the helicopter to Italy, and let's get shot of the whole disruptive mess of media and nutcase rabble on our doorstep..."

But they didn't..

I suspect Alder Hey specialist medical staff and Admin may be made of stronger integrity and genuine concern for patient well being...
..and not so easily swayed by noisy disruptive morons, or legal/religious philosophical pontificators...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

I'd point out that those things you object to, punk, are the consequence of the decision by the medical authorities to withdraw support procedures, which would continue to be provided if the Italian hospital could take over.

I think this very difficult affair has been handled very badly by the authorities. I think they overstepped their natural professional limbs, and trespassed into areas where their expertise was not relevant. A hospital has the right and indeed duty to decide when they no longer see any value to a patient in continuing treatment. I do not think it has the right to prevent allow another hospital from taking over, even when they consider such a transfer to be advisable. Hospitals do not own patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:32 PM

Have just read your update Mike, and thank goodness! Perhaps now the poor man will accept the help and support of the EOL team, and that dreadful band of stirrers outside will get bored and bugger off somewhere else, to the next internet protest fest.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:29 PM

My sister (retired doctor) says that intubating a patient, especially a baby, can be distressing and cause injury if performed by non-experts.
Mouth-to-mouth can also be fraught with dangers. There is sadly nothing to be gained by trying to resuscitate this child. He is virtually brain-dead but no-one can be sure he doesn't feel pain. Giving nourishment in the form of liquid will cause him to regurgitate and probably choke. He is having frequent seizures, exacerbated by moving him.
It would indeed be parental abuse if any of these things were to be tried by the desperate pair.
The couple need to come to terms with the fact that the little lad is passing, and to spend some quiet, reflective time at his bedside.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: MikeL2
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:28 PM

Hi Sen

It has just been announced on NW TV that Alfies' father Tom has agreed that he wants to get together with the Hospital medics and build a plan for Alfie. He has asked the supporters to leave the hospital areas and
he is anxious to work together with the hospital to bring about a peaceful end to Alfies' life.

I am sure that every sensible person like you will agree that this is what should happen in this sad case.

Regards Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:03 PM

Fine legal theory, but as reported here,
these parents are forcing mouth to mouth and CPR on a dieing child who has had life support switched off..

Concerns are that although desperately well meant,
these amateur life preserving attempts are liable to inflict harm and injury in Alfie's last days...

Which by legal definition alone could be considered parental abuse...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:52 PM

But are the medical needs relevant in this case, where the medical authorities have reached a conclusion that they can provide no further medical treatment and that all medical technical support should be withdrawn? And have withdrawn it.

There is no dispute that the best interests of the child should be paramount. The issue is whether those interests are best judged by the parents or the medico-legal system.
As I indicated, I would argue that it is impossible to reach a firm judgement on that matter - and that in this situation the parents should be the ones to have the choice, rather than this responsibility falling to a judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

I quite agree Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:27 PM

If the rights of the child are paramount then parental rights should be withdrawn and the child made a ward of court.Then the medical needs of the child could be met without dispute. This should have happened at the outset before the media circus had any involvement. Do we employ doctors or Lawyers to determine the rights of the child in this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:22 PM

I did wonder the same thing McGrath. 'Alfie's Army' seems to be composed of rather vociferous people who are not very well off, similar to the poor father of Alfie. They appear to have a grudge about 'them' meaning the professional staff at the hospital, and a lack of trust in such folk. Class issues still occur here in UK, and there are stigmas and prejudices involved in any interaction between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 01:15 PM

It's not the protesters so much I'm comparing. It's the way the actions of some of them get used to damage the issue about which they are protesting.

There's often tribalism creeps into issues like this. "If those people are for it, I have to be against it. If these people are against it, I'm obviously with them." Not all issues fall into neat packages like that. I never expect to find many people, or even any, with whom I'd be on the same side about every issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 11:24 AM

Well it's admirable maintaining such a balanced view..

But really comparing the hospital mob protest to Ghandi, might be stretching it a bit...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 11:17 AM

As you say, you know nothing about the parents.   But can imply lots.

The fact that people disagree with us is never a good reason for demonising them, even when they do things that we might be accused of ourselves doing for other reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 11:08 AM

I don't know anything about the parents - google wasn't very helpful,
so have no knowledge of their ability to make intelligent educated informed decisions...???

But it does on the surface appear that they are quite possibly being exploited as 'willing' pawns
by noxious fringe religious / political pressure organizations....

... and if I was cynical, I'd consider how much money is in the pipeline
for media interviews and book deals...???

I completely agree with Sen, that their misguided desire to keep their child breathing
beyond reasonable expectations in their own home
could potentially result in unintended physical abuse...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 10:47 AM

There were many who talked of Martin Luther King as a religious demagogue. Gandhi was a fanatical half-naked Hindu fakir.

Where emotions are high it has to be recognised that things are liable to get out of hand. The temptation to use this to undermine the underlying cause should be resisted.

I'm sure the hospital authorities and the legal authorities believe sincerely that their opinions are correct, and that they are better judges of Alfie's interests than his parents. The same goes for his parents, the other way. I don't see it as possible to decide which is right. My view is that in principle that means the choice should lie with the parents as the natural guardians of their child.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 09:23 AM

I don't think the hospital authorities or even the specialist doctors have the legal powers to forbid Alfie's removal or travel to Italy. That prerogative lies with the High Court. The medical experts concerned with the case merely advise and offer guidance to the Judge.

In a court case of this sort, it is the best interests of the child alone which the Judge considers, not those of the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 09:08 AM

Protest demonstrations...???

Here I'm thinking more in terms of mobs of intimidating nasty religious nutters picketing UK abortion clinics

[I suspect links to Charlie Gard and Alder Hey lynch mobs...????]

and those completely demented despicable Westboro shitheads mobbing funerals in the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:38 AM

It seems to me that the hospital authorities see this as a matter of professional authority and ownership of the case. The expression "release that case to another hospital" is a fair expression of that way of thinking. There are contexts where that can have its validity. Professional and even institutional expertise is important and deserves to be respected. But it has its limits.

A flight to Rome would involve a journey time comparable to many hospital transfers within the UK. If it turned out that Alfie was unable to survive the journey, the outcome would be the same as is in any way predicted. If support procedures which have been withdrawn were renewed for the journey the chance of his surviving it would presumably be greater.

As for "the mob", the kind of inappropriate behaviour reported is very similar to what has been reported in other protests where issues of human rights and human life are involved. It is also customary for this behaviour to be used to shift the focus from the actual issues involved - for a contemporary example consider Trump's spin on Black Lives Matter. Personally I remember the same in the same tactic being deployed in face of Vietnam protests, and many other times.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:29 AM

I'm fairly sure the Alder Hey doctors have concerns that Alfie's parents may practise procedures on the child which are inappropriate and cause suffering. The father has said he/the child's mother have 'resuscitated' him three times using the mouth-to-mouth method. He asked for a defibrillator for himself to use (!) and wants re- intubation. Two untrained, obsessed people 'treating' a defenceless baby is disturbing to say the least.

Sadly a dying person cannot digest any feeding fluid, and it will cause reflux and pain. Giving this may cause death anyway. The idea of defibrillation in this situation is appalling. Once 'released' from Alder Hey, who knows what crazy things these two may try?
No, I think it's got to the stage where Alfie should be made a Ward of Court.
And it's obvious the Police should get far more heavy-handed with The Mob outside the hospital. The 'Army' have now erected a bouncy castle in full view of the windows where other sick children are being treated (and some no doubt on EOL too) Other worried parents will be caused yet more distress by all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

So far as I can see they have not sought to produce any compelling evidence that Alfie is suffering in a way that might justify this shift of responsibility from the parents to the authorities. They appear to be speculating beyond their field of competence, in the absence of evidence.
If it is beyond the field of competence of trained doctors, their knowledge of expected outcomes is still surely several levels above that of the distraught parents.

It would appear that medical professions with quite as much expert knowledge are ready to continue his care, in another hospital.
The other 'medical profession(al)s' may have expert knowledge in their field, but seem to be prognosticating without having even seen the patient.

Transferring him from one hospital here to another equally competent hospital at the request of the parents should be perfectly acceptable. Why should the fact that the other hospital is in Italy be a reason to dig in and oppose the transfer?
The distance of the transfer may not be the problem. As a transfer to another UK hospital has not been mooted we do not know whether the experts at Alder Hey would find even that suggestion acceptable.

If the doctors believe they are doing what is best for their patient, why should they release that patient to another hospital which may not take the patient's needs into such consideration, and may even cave in to the pressure of mob rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 07:27 PM

Where is the basis for saying that in this case the people who must be accepted as representing the child's interests are the medical authorities rather then the parents?
So far as I can see they have not sought to produce any compelling evidence that Alfie is suffering in a way that might justify this shift of responsibility from the parents to the authorities. They appear to be speculating beyond their field of competence, in the absence of evidence.

It would appear that medical professions with quite as much expert knowledge are ready to continue his care, in another hospital. Transferring him from one hospital here to another equally competent hospital at the request of the parents should be perfectly acceptable. Why should the fact that the other hospital is in Italy be a reason to dig in and oppose the transfer?

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:52 PM

Hello there Mike!

The Christian Legal Centre is apparently the organisation which is funding the legal procedures.

The whole thing is a sinister bandwagon upon which every disreputable, hot-headed, ignorant banner-waver is jumping. Not to mention the President of Italy, the Pope and some very foolish and misguided lawyers.

And at the centre is a small child who is evidently dying.

After this concludes, there need to be changes and new systems introduced to protect primarily any child in a similar situation, and also the professionals and carers in the paediatric departments of our hospitals. Any and all disruptions by 'protesters' and 'demonstrators anywhere near a hospital should be swiftly stopped and arrests made.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:50 PM

Just wondered if one of those rich crackpot religious cults was using them as pawns...???

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:41 PM

Hi Sen

Like you and many others here I saddened by this terrible situation.

We have for a while thought that Tom's parents are behind much of the bringing in the Press etc.

The poor boy ( cos that is what he is ) is being swept along on a tide of emotion and politics. Taking out prosecution against three doctors for murder is desperately wrong.

Regards Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:30 PM

Hi PF

"Who is paying legal fees...??? "

Me & You !!!

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

Who is backing these young parents..???

Who is paying legal fees...???

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

Good heavens! A judge has now revealed that Alfie's father has brought a private prosecution of ATTEMPTED MURDER against three of the doctors at Alder Hey!! Unbelievable, and obviously the young man is becoming obsessive and unhinged.
This must be halted and some common sense and sanity introduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 10:57 AM

It seems now that the child's mother is presenting her own Appeal, wanting intubation reinstated. The poor baby is now failing and she's trying to get him to keep breathing.

This is absolutely tragic.

The father is continuing with his renewed pleas for travel to Italy.

I do so hope all this hasn't adversely affected their relationship - they're so very young and vulnerable, but foolish in the extreme, being egged on by the circus.

I think it's time the Police became more proactive and moved the mob far away from Alder Hey, if necessary arresting any aggressive protagonists for Breach of the Peace, as some posters on here have already suggested..

God forgive me, but the best thing in my view would be the poor little chap's demise in a peaceful and gentle way, so that this debacle can be dismantled.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:50 AM

It is a bad enough situation as it stands without the 'rent a mob' protesting at the hospital and making life so much more difficult for everyone there.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

I'd see the choice that the child's life should continue to be maintained as lying wholly within the field of the parents' decision. This is one situation surely where there is indeed a "right of choice", which is being denied.

It's not even a question of deciding that the medical authorities cannot justify continuing to devote resources, since alternative care providers have been identified. It is about the state believing that it has the right to take over the parents' duties - and though there are cases where that can be justified, such as parental abuse, it has not been suggested that anything analogous to that applies in this case.

Unfortunately, I think this can be considered as 'parental abuse'. Hard though it is to say it. Medical advice, backed by the courts, has stated that the best the child can hope for is a peaceful end, and the trauma of movement is not best for the child.

I fully accept that the parents may have desperate hopes, and will do anything to prolong their time with their child, unfortunately this also extends the time of the child's pains.

A sad case, but I feel it is almost certainly one in which the doctors know best.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:51 AM

Yesterday, at yet another Hearing, the judge re-affirmed that it was in the child's best interests to discontinue intervention, and that End Of Life (EOL) palliative care is now appropriate. The ventilation was stopped, but Alfie is continuing to breathe unaided. However his father said he and his wife have been using mouth-to-mouth resuscitation at times to keep him 'alive'. Apparently, once extubated, a patient at EOL can breathe for a few days before death occurs.

The parents have now demanded another Hearing to ask yet again for permission to travel with their son to Italy.
Italian doctors have never examined this baby. The specialists at Alder Hey have categorically stated that the boy's brain is mainly liquid and can never be regenerated. There is absolutely no way the poor little lad can be 'helped' or 'cured' and he would probably die on the journey in very distressing circumstances.

The Court should and will only consider the child's best interests, going by the paediatricians' advice. They do not have to consider parents, other agencies, 'Alfie's Army' or anything else.

I find myself hoping that the end will come very soon, so that all concerned may eventually find peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 08:17 PM

Here's the story on BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43883865

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:17 PM

I'd see the choice that the child's life should continue to be maintained as lying wholly within the field of the parents' decision. This is one situation surely where there is indeed a "right of choice", which is being denied.

It's not even a question of deciding that the medical authorities cannot justify continuing to devote resources, since alternative care providers have been identified. It is about the state believing that it has the right to take over the parents' duties - and though there are cases where that can be justified, such as parental abuse, it has not been suggested that anything analogous to that applies in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:12 PM

Iains - no surprises - I watch Hi Tech Cops and covert intelligence movies...
..and I was a student in the anti thatcher 80s...

Back then the most paranoid amongst us were constantly looking over their shoulders
for special police hit squads out to make 'em disapear...

I daresay I might have been on the margins of police special branch observation lists due to my friends and acquaintances
who were more publicly involved in leftie politics...???

One friend was most definitely in their sights, but we thought that all rather comical, if it hadn't been so scary..
if only they actually knew him and the absurd sense of humour behind his radical activism...

Anyway, he's now a portly boring local labour councillor, and part of the'establishment'..

And my views on law and order are creeping right wing enough
to want the fuzz to come down heavy handed on these 'pro life' rabble rousers..
[amongst others on my bang 'em up and throw the key away shit list...]

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:06 PM

I've just seen that the child's mother is actually pregnant with her second baby. Whatever must her state of health be with all this stress and anguish?
And ironically her name is Kate. What a contrast between the two women, one leaving hospital with a new Prince, and one suffering the agonies of having a terminally ill boy.

I also read that an Air Ambulance (paid for by some Christian charity) is standing by to rush the child to Italy if this afternoon's emergency hearing is successful. I'm sadly tempted to think they should just be allowed to go ahead. It will take the pressure off Alder Hey hospital, and afterwards at least the parents will feel they did all they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:59 AM

I think the parents are wrong, but can't judge them in their situation.

The demonstrators did not help. A quiet, dignified protest was called for.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:54 AM

Pfr I recommend the book by Tony Bunyan "The political police in Britain" It was originally printed in the late 70,s and among other subjects covers surveillance of "trouble makers". The dastardly deeds the security forces were capable of then have since come on in leaps and bounds. It is claimed Special Branch held records on 2.5million people in 1965. I would say the chances of any public gathering being immune to surveillance today is pretty remote. Video recording, along with phone harvesting and other little tricks we have yet to learn of are but the tip of the iceberg .So I suspect your concerns are well taken care of to an extent that would scare the S**** out of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:44 AM

It might be helpful if law enforcement compared faces in the Charlie Gard and Alder Hey lynch mobs
to see if they can identify the same individuals stirring up trouble at both hospitals...

..then take appropriate action...

Same goes for the organizers of anti-hospital online blogs & petitions...

Subject: RE: BS: Alfie Evans
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

There's apparently yet another Hearing this afternoon. But as the specialists say that the baby has terrible seizures if even slightly moved, I doubt if the judge will allow any removal. He most certainly would not survive a journey to Italy or anywhere else.