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BS: The short way to kill threads...
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Subject: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 05:17 PM The insults are getting personal. Thread closed. -Joe Offer- And with that succinct explanation, another thread spiralling down into toxicity was closed down. I tend to assume that when people do something which they know will produce an effect, that is the effect which they wish to produce. So it is reasonable to assume that people who go in for trading assaults in threads, though they may appear to disagree on many things, are at one in wishing to cause the threads in question to be closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 03 May 18 - 06:07 PM Well, usually by the time the "usual suspects" start insulting each other, the rest of us have already got bored and left the thread. And by the time a thread gets closed, all semblance of intelligence has been gone from the thread for days. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: robomatic Date: 03 May 18 - 06:42 PM I usually conclude the poster who goes into personal observations, insults, and obscenities has yielded the point. There is another frequent habit that folks get into, that is being the last to post, sorta like " says you!" followed by "says you, too!". It is childish but hard to resist. Says me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 03 May 18 - 06:53 PM The problem here is that people troll, and some idiots can't self-censor and have to reply, and they KEEP DOING IT. So you can blame it on trolls and obnoxious people, but it's many of the same responders that keep them going. It's usually a small number of the regular trolls' bitches that enable all the shit. Try pointing that out to THEM sometimes... (And this thread undoubtedly has a short shelf life, as it's just another sort of bait.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 May 18 - 07:00 PM I had absolutely no wish for that thread to be closed. I did, however, wish for one particular member to desist from the trolling, thread-wrecking, and racism for which he has a well-earned reputation on this forum. I don't regard pointing out to a blatant racist that he is a racist as being an insult, especially when there is evidence of his racism aplenty in his posting history. It's simply a statement of fact. If I had called him a racist unreasonably, I would understand the disapproval here, but I was merely saying what many others believe (and many have said it also, in the past). And your barely-concealed attempt to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires in your OP, is beneath contempt and unworthy of you, Kevin. It's school-yard stuff. I had thought better of you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 03 May 18 - 07:03 PM Backwoodsman tries to get THIS thread closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 07:09 PM All too often the school playgrounds insults start flying back and forth while a real and potentially interesting discussion is still taking place. As the thread starts to turn toxic there is a drift away from the thread, until soon enough the name-callers have it almost entirely to themselves, and it gets closed. I'm impressed much of the time how patient in Joe and Co are in holding off turning off the light, maybe hoping the thread can recover, as can happen, But I do get tired when people who clearly do have a real interest in discussing an issue they care about seem to lose any sense of self control and screw up a discussion in that way. I am beginning to wonder if it might be intentional. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 07:34 PM It's quite possible to expresses the strongest disapproval of someone’s views without throwing insults. It's easy enough, for example, to explain why you believe that something they have said has racist implications, or give reasons why you question the sincerity of something they have said. As for "And your barely-concealed attempt to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires in your OP, is beneath contempt and unworthy of you, Kevin. It's school-yard stuff. I had thought better of you. - I have to say that you completely misunderstand my intentions in this thread Backwoodsman, I really am not making any attempt, semi-concealed or not "to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires". My hope (and a faint one at that) would be to damp down fires. And I am very sorry that what I have written clearly gave you the wrong impression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: keberoxu Date: 03 May 18 - 07:48 PM What impresses me, at this particular moment, is how fine and nuanced the moderator's distinctions are. One BS thread still going has lost the Mudcat member who opened the thread. And I would be wrong, wouldn't I, to say the thread has been hijacked. The majority of posts on that thread are from a different member. And because the posts stay more or less on topic, the thread is not hijacked. No, it's just being dominated by one person and the others who post, including the person who opened the thread, have said what they have to say and see no need to repeat themselves. And it's my problem if I have a problem with whoever is left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 03 May 18 - 07:51 PM The phenomenon is very similar to infighting in a boxing match (boxing closer to an opponent than at arm's length). Neither opponent is at a good distance to get in a good, clean punch, and the match quickly gets boring. That's why the referees break up infighting and make the opponents start again at a distance. Closing a thread is not the end of the world - it's just giving everybody a chance to make a new start on a rational basis. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 03 May 18 - 08:21 PM ...and another thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 09:22 PM I really hate to say this as I know it doesn't really help, but I know that two of our moderators, members of a team which I generally support, are very close to at least two of the worst trolls on the board. That's fine, except when those of us who are self-evidently far lesser trolls than the two people I'm referring to, are accused of being trolls by at least one of those self-same mods. I do have a habit of naming names rather than bottling things by using silly and pusillanimous expressions such as "usual suspects," etc., but on this occasion I'll refrain from doing that. I would call for a bit more honesty, consistency and even-handedness from some of the mods. It's a tough job, it's unpaid, you have your own stances on issues and you can't please everybody, and if, on occasion you're not seen to be intervening when it looks like you should be doing, well we all know how many bloody threads there are here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 09:55 PM Actually I'm not sure it’s fair to talk about trolls in this context. Just because someone may seem a pain doesn’t merit the term. Unless my half-suspicion is right, and that there is a genuine attempt on their part to stir things up and start a slanging match in a way that gets a thread closed down, because that would indeed count as trolling. But either way, even if someone is being deliberately and even insincerely provocative the principle "don't feed the trolls" applies, most especially when it comes to trading personal insults. I think it is pretty well always a mistake to carry on an argument from one thread to another, or even to take into account in one thread what has been said in another. In starting this thread I had no intention of doing that or setting off that kind of thing. I wanted to raise an issue that I have noticed happening in many threads over the years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 10:04 PM I dislike several people here but, in fact, I think that only two of them are truly trolls. Being wrong-headed, argumentative and inclined to call names doesn't automatically make you a troll. These two pop up in Israel threads, always virulently pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian, and they are friendly with a mod each. It doesn't help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Rapparee Date: 03 May 18 - 10:31 PM Joe, infighting is what you get in real fighting. Unfortunately, that's not the stylized ritual of boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling. In real fighting, one or all combatants end up very injured or dead and it's over very quickly. There's no referee to enforce any rules because there aren't any. I know; I taught it. Intelligent discussion, on the other hand, has rules. When those rules are repeatedly broken the discussion (such as it is) is and should be terminated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 May 18 - 12:40 AM Isn't, "So-and-so tries to get THIS thread closed" a perfect, example of the very thing this thread was opened in order to deplore - a snarky poke aimed at provoking an equally snarky response, and bring about a thread-closure? Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. To further clarify - an accusation was made which I felt was aimed at me (evidence - the OP's quote of Joe's comment on the most recent closed thread, on which mine was the final post), to which I responded firmly, but civilly, with my explanations. The OP then responded with his own explanation, which I accept, and with further points which give me food for thought, but to which responding would serve no purpose, IMHO, other than to fruitlessly continue an "Oh yes you did, oh no I didn't" kind of argument. Nothing to do with 'trying to get THIS thread closed', everything to do with clarification, justification, and discussion. End of, AFAIC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 03:05 AM Intelligent discussion, on the other hand, has rules. Amen, Rap. Those rules are the rules of debate. You put up your case, the opposition puts up theirs. You refute their opposition, they answer to that. People ask questions. A vote is taken on who had the stronger argument. End of debate. Sadly that does not happen here, as is witnessed by the threads with thousands of posts that seem to go on ad infinitum with people rehashing the same old arguments and not giving up until everyone else does! That is not how to win a debate or even how to conduct yourself in real life. Say what you want. Let other people have their say. Reply to them. Let them reply to you. Let it go. I, and some others, have tried to help by not responding at all to certain parties. It works for me and seems to have cleaned up the threads a little. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: BobL Date: 04 May 18 - 03:10 AM AFAIC the problem starts when somebody (anybody) gets accused of being e.g. racist / homophobic / rabidly Tory / rabidly Socialist / a troll. Even if the accusation is true, it's irrelevant. The point is, what does it have to do with the subject under discussion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 04 May 18 - 03:35 AM The problem seems to me to be that some people are completely over-invested in the discussion. They post aggressively as if their very lives depended on it. The vicious passion is quite astonishing at times.It's a forum not a war. Also, the lack of common manners and consideration is breathtaking. I can't imagine people behaving like that in a real-life setting. It would probably come to blows, brawling and the arrival of the Police! I think the moderators are right to close threads in which certain posters are becoming nasty, although it's a disappointment for those who started the discussion, often an interesting topic which could have developed into a very satisfying debate. Imagine someone visiting Mudcat for the first time. They might be considering joining and being a regular contributor. But having read some of the appalling, angry and insulting threads, they'd recoil in disgust and go elsewhere. I'm sure no-one here would be happy about that; 'new faces' are very important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 03:57 AM I have no issue at all with bad language and robust exchanges. You see that all the time in real life and it very rarely ends in violence. Go in any pub in Scotland where there is an 'old firm' game on the TV. Go to any pub vault where politics is being discussed. The language and manners are not for the faint hearted! It is the need to win at all costs that gets me. The cheating, the mis-interpretation of other peoples words, the verbal gymnastics and resorting to semantics when the intention is perfectly clear and the outright lies. Give me good honest abuse over dishonest machinations any day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 04 May 18 - 04:12 AM But this isn't 'any pub in Scotland' Dave. It's a forum where people from all over the world, with a variety of cultural norms, religions and political viewpoints are having discussions. I agree that the underhand comments are very annoying, as is deliberate misinterpretation. And surely, one can be cultured enough not to resort to bad language? I know this isn't a monastery, but I don't move in any circles where bad language is acceptable. (Perhaps I ought to 'get a life' as they say nowadays!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 May 18 - 04:12 AM Hopefully most passing visitors will be here for music questions, and will not be drawn to the greater level of invective used in the 'BS' section. While I like to have access to a discussion area which can include UK politics, I sometimes feel that the site would be better without the BS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 04:32 AM As a forum it should be a microcosm of real life. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 04 May 18 - 04:38 AM That's a good working definition Dave. But I feel that when one department of 'real life' dominates and excludes all the other sections, it becomes rather bullying and exclusive. Can I just say that I always appreciate your measured and mature posts, and that you come across as a very fair-minded, kindly and pleasant person? There are many on here that I'd really miss if the BS section were to be dismantled! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 04 May 18 - 04:44 AM Considering the variety of nationalities and religious persuasions posting, it is a miracle the forum is generally a peaceful place. There is a minority that post that simply cannot accept that others may legitimately hold contrary views to their own, and insist on hammering away repeatedly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 05:01 AM Thank you, Eliza, I appreciate that. But I think we ever met in real life you would find I am far from measured and mature :-) (Well apart from in age that is!) Iains, we can agree on that. I can accept the opinions of others, even if I have difficulty understanding them at times. I expect others to do the same and do not expect to have to justify my opinions to the nth degree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 May 18 - 05:38 AM well speaking as someone who has occasionally bailed out of mudcat when faced with ignorant and hurtful comments - I'm not really sure there is an answer to this vexed problem. mudcat is to me simply the best folk music site. On a day when we are all reeling from the impact of the news of Jed Marum's death. You have to take the rough with the smooth. I would never have known of Jed's work without mudcat. And his music enriched my life. Its a pity we have this unfortunate aspect to mudcat. I have a feeling it says more about the kind of people and their intransigent attitudes, who have emptied the folk clubs and turned folk music into a minority music than is comfortable for us to contemplate. Because what it has meant, is that those of us who started out as youngsters, when folk music clubs were to be found in every town in England - have in many ways devoted our lives to a dying artform. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 05:47 AM "There is a minority that post that simply cannot accept that others may legitimately hold contrary views to their own, and insist on hammering away repeatedly." I agree entirely Iains - they usually make themselves known with strings of postings of personal abuse and attempts to 'talk down' their opponents - irritating to receive but highly entertaining to compile into huge lists There have, to my knowledge, only ever been two posters who have consistently done this - one had ridden off into the sunset, the other is now taking an "outraged from Tun bridge Wells" attitude to such behaviour which may be an indication he intends to change his ways a good thing, I suppose, though I shall miss the opportunity of compiling those lists!!! Many of us need to get our act together if this section is going to survive, but that depends entirely on "ssein' oursel's as ithers see us" More later Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 May 18 - 06:41 AM It was me backwoodsman personally insulted with his nasty name calling. The thread was closed with all his lies about me left intact for posterity but denying me the right of reply. If it was so bad as to close the thread, why not delete it? Why has he been allowed to repeat the personal lying insults on this thread? Joe, it was not "the "usual suspects" insulting each other. I do not insult anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 06:45 AM Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 May 18 - 06:55 AM In no way was my opening post aimed at anybody, nor was it particularly about any thread. I quoted Joe because I thought his comment succinctly identified a problem that bedevils a lot of threads. Any time a thread is closed some post is inevitably the last one, but I'd see it as a mistake to think that is the reason for it being closed. Actually, in comparison with most forums where these kind of topics get discussed, the Cat is a relatively civilised place, thanks largely I am sure to Joe and Co. My impression is that there are two traps that Internet forums tend to fall into - one is where the differences constantly turn toxic, and the clashes just become needlessly unpleasant, and pointless. The other is where everybody agrees with each other, and they just confirm each other’s views. Neither makes for interesting or productive discussion. Most of the time the Cat manages to steer clear of either extreme, and different views can get expressed and explored. But sometimes it goes wrong, and that could happen less often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 04 May 18 - 06:56 AM There are none so blind as those that will not see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 07:26 AM The pointing of fingers was bound to happen which underlines my point Several of US are guilty of name calling - some more than others Unless all of us guilty ones recognise that fact it will continue - "not me guv" will do the same I have never been a member of a debating forum before this - you're the first - I've never written much on anything other than song before this - and I've enjoyed every minute of it I never cease to be impressed and sometimes moved by the level of knowledge of people and their generosity in being prepared to share both ideas and actual material This forum is a great opportunity to exchange ideas and information on a myriad of subjects Personally, I am grateful for the two sections of this forum - neither on their own interest me enough to hang around but both are a perfect opportunity to give out and learn about subjects that interest me - some deeply I disagree with those who say this is not like a pub - a perfect analogy as far as I am concerned - and antidote to debating societies There's no such thing as "bad language" in my opinion - only language used badly Some of us are more passionate about some things - it shows in our contributions - it doesn't mean we resent those who don't agree with us - I wouldn't be here if I did. I do object strongly when this forum us used as a platform for spreading hate and dissent - which has happened on several occasions (even to the extent of contravening national laws) Can't do too much about that apart from attempting to prevent it in the strongest terms Anger and overstatement is inevitable with some people in some matters - gratuitous insulting is not unless that's the way you're built Instead of finger-pointing let's try a little self-examination - if you cant do that, go find a guru (I don't think the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is still available, but he was far too expensive anyway) Socks up time, I think Incidentally - the BS section isn't the only place slanging matches happen - the other bit can be as much of a minefield on certain subjects Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 07:27 AM " Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. " Amen to that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 May 18 - 08:45 AM Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. " Surely the aim should be not to insult either, but to be nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 08:54 AM It should indeed, Al, but we live in an imperfect world and the Mudcat is a microcosm of that. Besides, it is very difficult to be nice to some people and there are some who, when you are nice, throw it back in your face. Ho hum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Rapparee Date: 04 May 18 - 09:20 AM "Don't insult other people. You don't like it and neither do they. It starts fights." -- my Mother. If your opinion is so sacred to you that you cannot civilly defend it, if you must resort to insults, perhaps your opinion isn't as well thought out as you you thought or you simply can't articulate your views well. In either case you should give your thoughts more thought. (Sometimes I long for the days when an insult would bring an apology or a meeting with swords and/or pistols.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 May 18 - 09:25 AM Since the mudcat forum coding refurb, I miss being able to use emoticons to indicate visually when a post is intended in cheeky tongue in cheek ironic humour. This is essential for informing certain humourless nitpicking forum pedants who need such things spelled out for them... Those same difficult individuals also do not understand self depreciating humour, but instead misread it as 'weakness' they can later exploit maliciously in 'battle'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: CupOfTea Date: 04 May 18 - 09:35 AM wow. I could have SWORN that the quick way to kill threads was for me to post something. It's not that I want the last word, no no NOOOO, but I seem to get it all too often. I feel like I inject something that induces stultifying boredom, and the thread just stops. depressing, that. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 May 18 - 09:50 AM Just for you, Joanne, here is the last word... Zyzzyva :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 04 May 18 - 10:13 AM When people start complaining, it usually ends up being complaining about PEOPLE, at which time it becomes personal, and goes straight to hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 04 May 18 - 01:49 PM I keep seeing this, people calling each other "trolls," and I can't figure out what it is they think makes a troll. For the most part, I think that very few of our regular participants are trolls, because I see trolls as people who intentionally disrupt discussions for the purpose of causing trouble. To many Mudcatters, it seems that the definition of "troll" is ideological - that anyone who disagrees with the dominant ideology is a troll. In other words, our conservatives are the trolls. But I think our conservatives, misguided though they may be, post what they post because it's what they believe. And at times they may post with inordinate vehemence because they feel they are a hopeless and powerless minority. But they're really not particularly troublesome - they just post troublesome ideas. I found it interesting to see people in posts above, trying to speculate who were the people who were responsible for killing threads. I think that usually it's not the person who posted the last message. Maybe it's about the fourth person up from the bottom, or maybe not. But probably it's not one person - it's that the entire tone of the thread has turned angry, and there's nothing that can be done to fix it. But anyhow, I don't really think we've had serious trolls since we began requiring membership to post in the BS forum. Greg_F was a pain in the ass; but he was just trying very, very hard to be accepted by the "in crowd," even when he had no understanding of whatever was being discussed. We have people who can get ornery, but I think they truly believe in the ideas that they are posting, and they're working hard to help their side prevail. As for moderators having particular friendships with trolls, I just don't see that - but then, I don't see all these trolls that people are talking about. I confess that I have kind of love-hate relationships with Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw. I really like both of them, but I do argue with them regularly and vehemently. So, I don't think I'm particularly biased for or against them. I may have my disagreements with [other moderators], but I think they're pretty unbiased. So, that's what I think. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: keberoxu Date: 04 May 18 - 02:27 PM Just noted a post lamenting about: one member is unhappy that another member's posts have not been deleted. you know what I do? I think about all of MY posts, and there are a bunch, that have not been deleted, which I ought never to have posted to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 04 May 18 - 02:52 PM I am very reluctant to delete posts. To me, once a message has been posted, the damage has already been done. It usually doesn't help to delete a post. I get a lot of requests for posts to be deleted, and it usually feels to me like the requestor is asking me to punish the offending poster. [Other mederators] delete posts more frequently, but I do not believe that they believe in deletions for the purpose of punishing offenders. Our purpose is to keep the discussions going and to protect the interests of Mudcat, not to punish any wrongdoers. I think that we moderators have far less interest in the discussions then some people may think. We just want to keep the peace, and we try various techniques to do that. Sometimes, we may actually be successful. Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: robomatic Date: 04 May 18 - 03:51 PM I have learned over time that there are people who I really disagree with here, and have posted stuff that I deem deeply prejudicial, yet, given more proximity and a human face in front of me, I might very well share a beer with, after a minor beat-down. What it comes down to for me in the end is does the person have a point to their argument that references items outside themselves? Can they establish a relationship to reality (or something they represent as reality)? Also, if the abuse is at least tempered by humour or specific enough to give a frame of mind beyond mere name-calling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Raggytash Date: 04 May 18 - 04:48 PM Having thought about this for a while I have arrived at this position. The Mudcat is a discussion forum, where hopefully, ideas can be exchanged, debated, however heatedly. It should be a place where other peoples ideas are considered, thoughtfully, and responded to accordinly. Although I am quite open to robust replies, we should hopefully, also retain a little decorum. What it should not be is a place where people have to "win" or "lose" Sadly that is what we encounter more often than not. Just my tuppence worth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 04 May 18 - 07:59 PM Yeah, I have to say that I sometimes wonder why it is that people take discussions here so seriously. I mean, this is a discussion forum, not real life. Very few decisions are made here that will affect the fate of this world. We're just talking. And if somebody gets offensive, it's still all just talk. There really is no need for anybody to be reprimanded. If somebody offends you, get back at him with clever and humorous but withering logic. If the discussion gets out of hand, a moderator will shut it down and somebody can start a new thread. It's no big deal. I have the annoying habit of liking most of the people on this forum, even then they're a pain in the ass. We're all actually pretty good people. We care, and that's important. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 May 18 - 08:03 PM The thing is, largely because the Mudcat is founded on a love for folk music, it does include people with a wider range of views than is the case with many online forums. We should value this. Arguing about things we care about with people who disagree with us helps us get a clearer picture of what we believe and why we believe it, and also why other people see it differently. It can get uncomfortable and frustrating, and very often it gets downright annoying, but it's worth trying to make it work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 08:34 PM " I mean, this is a discussion forum, not real life." Sorry Joe but shame on you In "real life" very few of us get a chance to express our opinions and if we do, nobody listens Coming from the background I do, many of the subjects I get involved in are very much "real life" for me - I know that is the case with others here What Mac has just written is exactly right (I wish I could agree with him on everything as I do on this) It is an extremely middle-class attitude to suggest that sharing opinions with those who agree and disagree is unimportant - for some of us it is as essential as reading - a way of expanding your knowledge -and your ability to do so, of course I havn't had the opportunity to organise my ideas and add to them the way I have been able to here since I left school sixty years ago Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 04 May 18 - 09:33 PM I dunno, Jim. I think you need to reconsider. What is the purpose of this forum, and what effect do our posts have here? I'm an activist in my local community, centering on the issues of incarceration, homelessness, and immigration. I'm past president and on the board of directors of a non-profit community organizing group that focuses on these issues. I attend every local public meeting that deals with these issues, and I write frequent letters to local newspapers and harass my elected representatives on a regular basis. I use Mudcat for practice. In general, I feel I'm among friends here and in a place where I can say what I want to say, testing my arguments to see how they will work in a more public forum. Here is where I experiment with my thinking on matters, to see if my approach is workable. This coming Tuesday, the right-wingers in my county are organizing an attempt to get the county Board of Supervisors to enact a resolution removing the county from California's "sanctuary state" law which prohibits state and local law enforcement from participating in Trump's crackdown on legal and illegal immigrants. Some California counties and municipalities have chosen to defy the state law and work to cooperate with Trump's immigration troopers. Our county has a right-wing electorate, but the county Board of Supervisors chose not to include the anti-sanctuary proposal on this coming Tuesday's agenda. To my mind, this is a very courageous action on the part of the Board of Supervisors, but many of my colleagues don't think this is enough and want to use the Board meeting as a battleground for the immigration issue. I don't want to jeopardize what the Board has done by removing the issue from their agenda, so I find myself in opposition to many of my friends. To me, the county board meeting is where the discussion has importance - not at Mudcat. I want a place like this to test my opinions, even if I'm wrong. And once I've tried my presentations here, I can show up at the county meeting on Tuesday and make my point in a place where it counts. But for Mudcat to be worthwhile, it's important for us to see Mudcat for what it should be - a forum for free discussion among friends, even if sometimes people say things we don't agree with. If we are to be effective in our communities and our political bodies, we need a place like Mudcat where we can just bat ideas around, even if we're wrong sometimes. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 04:07 AM " I think you need to reconsider. What is the purpose " Has it a set purpose? As far as I am concerned, it is an opportunity to exchange ides with others, to sound out your own and to learn from others That is what all communication is about I lived in London for thirty years - I had access to literally thousands of people, should I have wish to avail myself of them, I could, and did attend meetings and lectures, I could go to the local pub and strike up conversations with people from hundreds of different walks of life, with different interests and experiences and from different places in the world - I did so regularly. I now live in a small rural village on the edge of the Atlantic - I can no longer do this For me, being able to talk to people on this forum is a very limited way to replace something I lost when we moved twenty years ago. Whatever Mudcat might be to you, that is what it is for me and I am grateful for it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 04:25 AM Ah Jim, that resonates with me. I do so like a natter (hee hee I wonder if anybody has noticed?) and while living in a lovely, friendly village, people are out at work (like my husband) or busy, and not always ready to chat, especially during the cold winter days. I like the intelligent level of discussion on Mudcat, on a very wide range of topics. I've learned such a lot. I also feel very fond of many who post on here, and although it's a website, it does feel as if they are friends. I would miss it dreadfully if the BS section were removed. I'd be forced instead to go and do the ironing or wash the kitchen floor. Gah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Doug Chadwick Date: 05 May 18 - 04:54 AM I have learned over time that there are people who I really disagree with here, and have posted stuff that I deem deeply prejudicial, yet, given more proximity and a human face in front of me, I might very well share a beer with, after a minor beat-down. There is at least one Mudcat member who, based purely on his on-line persona, I would cross the street to avoid if I came upon him in real life. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 05 May 18 - 06:39 AM Funny how some people would avoid others in meatspace, but seem sucked into threads those folks post to here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 07:19 AM "meatspace" Lovely term - only ever heard it in another context - tut-tut Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 07:24 AM Sounds like the area in front of the butcher's counter in Tesco's! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 07:44 AM I use Mudcat for practice. In general, I feel I'm among friends here and in a place where I can say what I want to say, testing my arguments to see how they will work in a more public forum. Here is where I experiment with my thinking on matters, to see if my approach is workable. Precisely so, Joe. And that's why it matters. It's not about changing the minds of the people we get into arguments or discussions, it about effecting our own ideas and how we express them and develop them. There aren’t too many opportunities to do that in the offline world, not in the same way. It's been compared to talking in a pub, but I don't really think that's quite right. More often than not in pubs, even if there's much talk (which isn't the case a lot of the time), it tends to be about non-contentious stuff. Often enough there's even a semi- official or even official ban on talking about stuff like politics or religion. Even talk about football can be seen as too liable to cause problems. I think too many of us spend all our Mudcat visits down below the line. Or above it. I think there's a real value in visiting both. It can be good to find someone you're at daggers drawn down below actually shares your musical tastes and views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 18 - 07:49 AM Can you have a meetspace on meatspace? Doug, there are a couple I would instinctively avoid but I suspect that it we were to meet our respective bogey men in real life we may be pleasantly surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 18 - 08:12 AM Kevin, your posting is, as ever, considered and thought provoking. I do challenge a couple of points though. While I agree to a certain extent about your pub analogy dismissal I would like to point out that, in other ways, the analogy is sound. It is where people from all walks of life meet. Of those people some are your friends who you will gravitate towards, some are acquaintances who you will pass the time of day with and some are just not your kind; those you avoid if possible. If too many of these latter types take over, you will stop coming. Which is where the moderators come in. They are the management who will step in with friendly advice or, where required, break up a fight and lay down the law. The second thing is that it is OK to use Mudcat as a sounding board but, as we see all too often, an idea is posted, only to A) have it interpreted in ways that were never intended B) offend someone who then takes the buff or C) start a flame war amongst a handful of people who then take over the thread. Not sure how these things can be addressed but maybe a limit on thread length or the number of postings one person can make to that thread would help. What do you think? Joe, is that something Max could do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 08:27 AM "Sounds like the area in front of the butcher's counter in Tesco's! " Not what I had in mind!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 05 May 18 - 12:21 PM I think one of the problems is that compared with fans of other so-called music genre - by that I am referring to those for whom contestants on the latest pop talent show are the be all and end all of everything that matters in the world - us folkies are very politically and socially aware, and hold strong views according to our own perspectives. However, I do find it hard to understand how those who are drawn to folk music can be anything else but socialist - but that would be another thread. In a way, it is a pity that the thread in question was closed as, but for the thread drift, it was asking some important questions. I do see that threads do drift, and run into the danger of a one-to-one personalised exchange. I personally do not have problems between the banter between regular contributors, as long as it does not descend to personal abuse. We should be self-moderating - perhaps a few techniques. (1) Responses to comments criticising policy - can either agree or disagree, if disagree make a clear statement of why. Just stating that the other side were just as bad in the past does not contribute towards moving the debate forward. (2) Be open where we are coming from, and accept that those who are equally open have the right to their views. (3) Be encouraging to contibutions to debate from those other than the main protagonists, and respond without belittling. By all means, point out fallacies, but in a civil manner. (4) If discussion is going off in a narrow tangent, bring the OP point back into the discussion, maybe with another avenue for discussion. (5) For extended one-to-one 'battles', consider whether these contribute something of interest to other readers, or whether this should be a one-to-one exchange of personal messages. (6)Avoid trying to out-intectualise other contibutors, it may feel good to score points, but it could very easily bore other readers. If cross referring, consider explaining what you are cross referring to. (7) Avoid offensiveness in posts - not just towards Mudcat members, but to people in society. Criticise for what one does (and cite evidence) as oppose who one is, to avoid being mirrored. (8) When cooments do get offenseive, be prpared to say 'whatever', and move the discussion to something more interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 12:31 PM When you post some idea, and it is misinterpreted in ways never intended, that can be quite useful. It can teach you to be more careful in how you state that idea, so that you can stop that happening. As for offending people, you can use that as a guide to finding ways of stating that idea in ways that try to avoid offending people. Where the idea in itself is causing the offence, it's going to happen - but often it's more the way the idea is phrased that sets off the reaction, and sometimes it's a case of the kind of misinterpretation I mentioned in the last paragraph. Flame wars are a menace, but you never need to join in them, or respond in kind if you get flamed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 05 May 18 - 12:39 PM Joe, I know I am a couple of days late but with regards to deletions, I think I would draw the line with: (1) Anything libellous and slanderous. (2) Posts that are offensive towards sections of society -ie racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. generalisations. (3) Gratuitous use of foul language. (4) Personalised offensive language directed at people on the basis of their gender, race, sexual orientation, disabillity, age, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 May 18 - 12:54 PM I don't agree - i think the only deletions should be on grounds that the words contravene hate speech laws to the extent they might put mudcat in jeopardy for publishing them.. All else should remain up on the board to damn the offensive poster for eternity... But that's why I'd be a rubbish mod... I also think admin should not indulge posters who who make 'offensive' attacks, keep them up long enough to be read by the intended mudcatters; then go crawling to mods bleating that they regret posting 'out of character', requesting that their own offending post be deleted. After the deletion, said sly mudcaters can continue as if they never did anything wrong when they later plead innocence of ever posting any malicious comments... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 02:03 PM I find what upsets me most is when people make personal remarks, insulting another poster and calling them names, casting aspersions on their integrity and so on. It can get aggressive and nasty. I don't mind people defending their viewpoint vigorously, but there surely is never any need to trade insults on a personal level. It doesn't add anything to the discussion, merely derails it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Joe Offer Date: 05 May 18 - 02:27 PM I usually agree with PFR....that's why I'm a rubbish mod. I did honor one request recently from somebody who posted something and then regretted it. That doesn't happen very often. The poster seemed sincere and honest, so I honored the request and deleted the post. I also deleted a couple responses to the post, and notified the posters that I had done so. I think PFR was one of the people whose post I deleted, and I'm quite sure I notified PFR. Like I said above, I probably will never understand why people take things said in this forum so seriously. I occasionally have people get all legalistic on me, when I can't see what all the hullabaloo is about. The moment somebody threatens to hire a lawyer on a Mudcat matter, I drop it all and pass it on to Max - he's the owner and the one liable. I'd say I get a lawyer threat about twice a year. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 05 May 18 - 02:57 PM I liked Senoufous descriptive term "Keyboard Warriors"' when rereading "No Go" subjects on Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 18 - 02:59 PM No, sorry Sen, I understand what you are on about but there are times when butter wouldn't melt in their mouth people get so dishonestly offensive that they deserve any abuse they get. If I was to say to you that you were talking bollocks then it may be insulting or offensive but, to my mind, far more honest than the sneaky way others may ever so politely insult your intelligence. In my opinion of course! And not that you would ever talk bollocks either (except in your political preference of course) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 05 May 18 - 03:17 PM My apologies to anyone interested, this closed thread appears to be unavailable on the link ..... I got it by searching for "keyboard warriors" in the Forum link fixed by Joe (click) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 03:32 PM I like the term 'keyboard warriors' - it conjures up an image of someone with gritted teeth and a fierce frown bashing away on their keyboard, frothing at the mouth and shouting. If I privately thought someone was 'talking bollocks', I wouldn't express it in that way. Id probably say instead, "I find that rather preposterous" or, "I disagree most strongly." But then I'm quite ancient and have never used (or even heard) expressions such as 'talking bollocks'. Must have led a very sheltered life! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 05 May 18 - 03:42 PM Ive trawled the internet and cant get a Samurai keyboard anywhere. I just had a thought , I could establish an new order "Knights of the Keyboard" and I wouldnt necessarily preclude daytime members |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 04:11 PM Oooh can I be a Knight of the Keyboard? I'd look nice in white satin.... :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 18 - 04:21 PM I led a sheltered life. Bus shelters. Roadside shelters. Any shelter I could find... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 04:26 PM I think the term is Dame. Or Chevaleresse (alternatively, chevalière.?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 04:40 PM I'll settle for 'Dame' Bruce. "Dames in white satin" doesn't have quite the same cachet though does it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: beardedbruce Date: 05 May 18 - 04:44 PM We've got sunlight on the sand We've got moonlight on the sea We've got mangoes and bananas we can pick right off a tree We've got volleyball and ping-pong and a lot of dandy games What ain't we got? We ain't got dames! We get packages from home We get movies, we get shows We get speeches from our skipper And advice from Tokyo Rose We get letters doused with perfume, We get dizzy from the smell What don't we get? You know damn well We've got nothing to put on a clean white suit for What we need is what there ain't no substitute for There is nothing like a dame Nothing in the world There is nothing you can name That is anything like a dame We feel restless, we feel blue We feel lonely and in brief We feel every kind of feeling But the feeling of relief We feel hungry as the wolf felt when he met Red Riding Hood What don't we feel? We don't feel good Lots of things in life are beautiful but, brother There is one particular thing that is nothing whatsoever In any way, shape, or form like any other There is nothing like a dame Nothing in the world There is nothing you can name That is anything like a dame Nothing else is built the same Nothing in the world... Has a soft and wavy frame Like the silhouette of a dame There is absolutely nothing like the frame Of a dame [Whistling] So supposed a dame ain't bright Or completely free from flaws Or as faithful as a bird-dog Or as kind as Santa Claus It's a waste of time to worry over things that they have not Be thankful for The things they've got There is nothing you can name That is anything like a dame There are no books like a dame And nothing looks like a dame There are no drinks like a dame And nothing thinks like a dame Nothing acts like a dame Or attracts like a dame There ain't a thing that's wrong with any man here That can't be cured by putting him near A girly, womanly, female, feminine dame |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 18 - 04:49 PM Or the insulting version. What ain't we got? We ain't got brains! :-D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 04:55 PM Hee hee, we're going the right way about killing this thread aren't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 06:03 PM they deserve any abuse they get "Use every man according to his deserts, and who shall 'scape whipping" It doesn't matter if people deserve to be abused. The abuse doesn’t actually damage them, anyway, it damages the Mudcat. Let it go. Stop responding to the person who deserves abuse in your view. Blank them for good, maybe, but don't muddy the water for everyone. There may be occasions for exceptions, but very few, and not many people have the inbuilt acumen to do it right. The late lamented Castspaw was the only person I can remember who could manage it right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 05 May 18 - 06:55 PM Kevin .... I'm in full agreement some folks have mastered the art some sadly havent Senofgou "Hee hee, we're going the right way about killing this thread aren't we?" I hate to disagree but I don't think so, the introduction of a little humour lightens the proceedings and gives a little time to reflect? the question mark was optional |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 03:05 AM Stop responding to the person who deserves abuse in your view. Funnily enough, I have! As have a number of others. It does not stop them warranting abuse but, as they seem to thrive on attention, it does seem to have slowed them down a little as well. Sadly they are still getting attention from others. I must say I derive a, possibly perverse, satisfaction from watching them trying and failing to goad people into responding:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 May 18 - 03:25 AM My policy too - read and scroll on by - but, unfortunately, I occasionally 'fall off the wagon'. Note to Self: Ignore the hoops, ignore the traps, ignore the bare-faced lies, ignore the wilful provocation.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Will Fly Date: 06 May 18 - 03:48 AM Ooh, I don't know... an occasional sharp tap on the testicles can be very satisfying. :-) As John Cleese famously said from the castle battlements, "I fart in your general direction!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 06 May 18 - 03:51 AM "Ni! Ni!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 03:53 AM I wave my private parts at your aunty! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 May 18 - 04:07 AM It always makes me uncomfortable the way people do a pre-emptive poke at Ake. THey call him racist and homophobic, and stuff like that. I know some will profoundly disagree with me, but I wonder if anyone else feels disquieted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 04:23 AM Ake and Teribus have been banned from posting below the line, Al. That says it all really. It should happen to some others too. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 06:42 AM "THey call him racist and homophobic, and stuff like that" I'm not sure that was true Al - I certainly never did My problem with him was his persistent bullying and contemptuous attitude to other contributors If he was banned from posting below the libe (I hadn't realised that), it certainly wasn't for his politics; there are others that share his views - plus - still around I don't think anybody should be barred for their political views (the greater variety the more chance of a lively and informative discussion as far as I'm concerned) Openly displayed hate politics and contempt for other posters are different matters altogether. I believe that this forum, on both sides of the line have dipped out badly by having no Asian or African members - were I from a Muslim background I would not come a million miles near this forum remembering some of the horrendous attacks that have been allowed to take place here (sometimes it's bad enough coming from an Irish background) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 May 18 - 07:08 AM Isn't one of that pair still posting, under a different persona? Or have I misread the signs?h |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 07:35 AM Your imagination is running away with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 May 18 - 07:55 AM There IS a God! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 09:12 AM But in many wars God is claimed to be on both sides. Omnipotence obviously has it's drawbacks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 May 18 - 09:43 AM Why is the drawback blamed on omnipotence? In the example given it is the ignorance of one side, or the other (or both)that leads to the belief "God is on our side". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 11:32 AM Differing beliefs in what appears to be the same God has killed more people than any other cause. If said deity has unlimited power it seems strange that divisions in the way of belief and worship of the God leads to so many deaths. A rational person would believe omnipotence would prevent such schisms arising in the first place, but this is obviously not the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jeri Date: 06 May 18 - 11:40 AM You assume an omnipotent god would want to interfere in things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 May 18 - 12:20 PM There might not be a cure for omnipotence, but it can be managed and treated; and nothing to be ashamed of... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 May 18 - 12:42 PM I thought the cure for omnipotence was Viagra? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Senoufou Date: 06 May 18 - 12:48 PM Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!! I nearly spilled my tea just now!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Raggytash Date: 06 May 18 - 01:15 PM A CURE for ominpotence is surely a cold shower? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 May 18 - 01:16 PM Haaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaah! Now I've spilled my tea! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 06 May 18 - 01:26 PM I thought it was the male pill! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 01:33 PM Stood you rolling out of bed at night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 May 18 - 01:34 PM Or even stops you. Damn this productive ticks... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 03:40 AM I'm glad this thread hasn't disappeared completely I've just been part of a somewhat vicious exchange which I believe came very close to closing a thread (I sincerely hope it hasn't) In a discussion on violent crime, I raised the question of a Traveller who was 'executed' by an Irish farmer some years ago This led to a spectacular attack on the Travelling community in general, which then almost degenerated into a slanging match (largely due to a posters intolerance of Travellers and my objection to the views being expressed on this forum). Nuff said about that particular dust-up. What does concern me is that there seem to be a number of no-go areas being created on this forum by people who are prepare to use it as sounding boards for their intolerance Islam seems to be a no-go area - (I mentioned the lack of Muslims on forum that would very much benefit from their presence, especially on the subject of music) Antisemitism has become an issue almost guaranteed to close threads Discussion of particular political parties is sensitive territory. Even certain aspects of folk song have become taboo Now we have the question of Travellers I came to this forum through my interest in folk song, and a major part of that interest has been the role part played by Travellers like Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts of Blair, John Reilly Johnny Doran.... and the many, many Traveller singers, musicians and storytellers who have played an invaluable part in preserving our folk cultures down the centuries. If racial and cultural intolerance of is going to hang over the discussion of these people, then I don't think it bodes too well for some threads on both sides of the line BS and Music/Folklore I did think of opening a new thread on this (I'm still more than a little angry at the display of racial/cultural intolerance displayed on the other) I thought that, as this was about thread closure and it had appeared to have run out of puff, this was as good a place as any to vent my anger. Said my piece - have a good day, y'all Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 08 May 18 - 03:52 AM You have an anger management problem jimmie. Seek Help! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 04:17 AM Discussion of particular political parties is sensitive territory. No. It is OK to attack and malign any party except one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 04:18 AM "You have an anger management problem jimmie. Seek Help!" it seems apt that someone should adopt behaviour likely to close this thread on a thresd discussing the closing of threads Perhaps a moderator might take steps to prevent that from happening Not to do so appears to be allowing obvious trolling Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 May 18 - 04:23 AM These threads are not actively moderated, Jim. If you want something to happen you need to present your case to one of the moderation team. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 08 May 18 - 04:32 AM A stunning idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 04:45 AM Thanks Dave As my mate has just said, a wonderful idea I've just taken your advice Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 18 - 05:12 AM I think there is a distinction between what we say and how we say it. Much of the time the kind of problems that kill threads is more about the latter. There are attitudes and opinions that deserve and indeed invite strong and forceful opposition, especially expressions of racism etc. They get that, and quite right - but there are different ways of doing it, and we need to be careful in how we do it. And we also need to be cautious in interpreting what someone has said as going further than what they have actually said. We may think that a remark made by a poster implies racist attitudes that they have not actually expressed, but we should be very careful about building on that. Even if we are right, it's falling into a trap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 08 May 18 - 05:40 AM Attaching unjustified labels requires the strongest rebuttal and deserves censure. There are one or two make a skewed interpretation of what was stated and then give their imagination free rein to build on their totally erroneous interpretation with additional bullying and bluster. They then bluster even more when confronted with it, but never admit they were wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 06:01 AM "We may think that a remark made by a poster implies racist attitudes that they have not actually been expressed" Racism has no place on this or any forum - stereotyping Travellers as "thieves" aand spreaders of rubbish as Iains did is racism, pure and simple Some travellers are guilty of both, as are settled people, but to give the behaviour of some as a reason for an exectution goes beond the limits of decenct If that was not his intention, then he used my point that the victim was a Traveller to embark on an attack on the Travelling community as a whole Either way, it was a racist attack In Britain, Travellers are now entitled to protection under race discrimination laws - I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that this has to be extended to hatemail on the internet Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 08 May 18 - 06:30 AM Jim you are totally full of shit.What on earth gives you the right to post:" stereotyping Travellers as "thieves" aand spreaders of rubbish as Iains did is racism, pure and simple" Show me the evidence that justifies you making such a slur on my character, or apologise. YOU ARE A NASTY, VINDICTIVE LIAR. As I say repeatedly you are a disgrace to this forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Iains Date: 08 May 18 - 06:33 AM I apologise for any being forced to endure this but I have no option but to defend myself against these totally unwarranted accusations by Jim. I ask repeatedly for him to prove his allegations but all I get is further strings of abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: MikeL2 Date: 08 May 18 - 06:49 AM Hi Joe " Well, usually by the time the "usual suspects" start insulting each other, the rest of us have already got bored and left the thread. And by the time a thread gets closed, all semblance of intelligence has been gone from the thread for days." Couldn't agree more. The "usual Suspects " don't appear to realise that they are the ones that spoil a thread. Some people here should look in the mirror. Cheers Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 06:53 AM Over-reacting nasty personal feuds & vendettas infesting multiple threads - that's never healthy or welcome here... Let's be calm collected gentlemen, and just mercilessly take the piss out of each other's obsessions and pomposity... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 May 18 - 06:56 AM Jim. First look at your own posts: Racism has no place on this or any forum - stereotyping Travellers as "thieves" aand spreaders of rubbish as Iains did is racism, pure and simple Some travellers are guilty of both, as are settled people, You seem to accept that only 'some' travellers are guilty of theft and spreading rubbish. You then go on to say that 'settled people' are also guilty of the same. No "some" in that bit. If you are stating that all settled folk are guilty of theft and spreading rubbish then that is as bad a case of racism as any that you are complaining about. (and that is how your comment could be read) See how easy it is to find a post which appears to be racist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 08 May 18 - 07:11 AM A bit nit-picking though, Nigel. When I read that part of Jim's post, I took the **some** as implied re Settled people. I'm pretty sure that any reasonable person who doesn't have an axe to grind would see it as implied too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 18 - 07:16 AM We've just seen the kind of thing I was talking about in action. "You say this, so obviously you mean that and how dare you say that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 18 - 07:25 AM "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. George Bernard Shaw? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 May 18 - 07:37 AM We've just seen the kind of thing I was talking about in action. "You say this, so obviously you mean that and how dare you say that. Was that aimed at me, or at Backwoodsman? I haven't put an alternative to Jim's words. I have accepted them as written Backwoodsman has read into them something which isn't actually there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 May 18 - 07:47 AM Pedantic pratt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 08 May 18 - 07:49 AM True, but I read what I believe he meant. It's called 'thinking about what you read, and not just blindly taking it literally'. To suggest that all settled people are thieves and spreaders of rubbish is clearly ludicrous, I can't imagine any contributor to this forum seriously putting it forward as a fact. And it never occurred to me that McG might be referring to me - I've said nothing that would get the thread closed, so why should he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 07:50 AM It baffles me why folks take it all so personally and over seriously...??? It's not like escalating out of control face to face in a pub with a riled up pisshead.. We can read, stand back, think... wait... type.. wait.. rethink more rationally... wait.. edeit / rewrite.. wait.. then post... It don't have to be so emotionally fired up and ferociously immediate...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 08:03 AM "You then go on to say that 'settled people' are also guilty of the same." Of course I meant "some" Nigel - my apologies for the confusion I will say that the widespread pollution that is infecting not just Britain but the entire planet, heavily outweighs that made by a minuscule number of Travellers - but that's beside the point. I'm making a point of ignoring Iain's increasingly abusive postings - he seems to be returning to his old habits - pity! I didn't want this topic to dominate this thread, but I do want to feel comfortable about about posting my experiences of Travellers without being overwhelmed by tsunamis of racist abuse Hopefully, after the dust has settled on this one, that will never again be the case Perhaps a few threads on The Doran Family, The Dunnes, John Reilly, Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts, et al, might redress the balance - though I doubt it will do much to remove deeply-embedded prejudices! Let's see Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 09:01 AM It baffles me why folks take it all so personally and over seriously...??? You are easily baffled PFR. Threads are closed and fewer people post than ever, so whatever you think, most people do not like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 18 - 09:27 AM Look in the mirror, Keith. It isn't just personal insults, etc., that put people off. Now back to taking no notice of you.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 09:58 AM It really baffles me what I just read then, and reread at least 5 times, and can still make no coherent sense of... I wonder why...????? Oh I know... he's a complete snivelling K***...!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 May 18 - 10:26 AM From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 08 May 18 - 07:47 AM Pedantic pratt. Uncalled for, and adding nothing to the discussion. From: Backwoodsman - PM Date: 08 May 18 - 07:49 AM True, but I read what I believe he meant. It's called 'thinking about what you read, and not just blindly taking it literally'. To suggest that all settled people are thieves and spreaders of rubbish is clearly ludicrous Regarding both the above quotes. Jim himself has already accepted his meaning was unclear. Re-writing the sentence slightly: "Some settled people are thieves and spreaders of rubbish, as are travellers." Would you have accepted that I was not trying to tar all travellers with the same brush? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 May 18 - 10:34 AM Steve, It isn't just personal insults, etc., that put people off. I think it is Steve. It is certainly not people like me who just put moderate, mainstream views. PFR, It really baffles me what I just read then, and reread at least 5 times, and can still make no coherent sense of... I wonder why...????? Oh dear. Poor little you. Ask Steve to explain. He had no problem at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Backwoodsman Date: 08 May 18 - 10:49 AM "Regarding both the above quotes. Jim himself has already accepted his meaning was unclear. Re-writing the sentence slightly: "Some settled people are thieves and spreaders of rubbish, as are travellers." Would you have accepted that I was not trying to tar all travellers with the same brush?" Had I read that sentence, I would have perceived an implied 'some' immediately preceding 'travellers'. So yes, I would have accepted that you were not trying to tar all Travellers with the same brush. Taking individual sentences absolutely literally is a fool's errand. Intelligent reading, taking a poorly-worded sentence within the context of a larger piece, can often clarify the true meaning of such a sentence. It was perfectly clear that, within the context of his whole piece, Jim was trying to demonstrate equivalence within the two groups under discussion, and not attempting to prove any superiority of either with regard to theft, dumping, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 10:59 AM Crikey.. K***'s in high spirits, he's being a right supercilious little bounder today... Must be the benefits of bright sunny bank holiday weather and renewed hope that the world heading closer to The Rapture..??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Stu Date: 08 May 18 - 11:03 AM Amazing, I nip back down here to see if it's worth returning and find this thread, which demonstrates perfectly why below the line has become a mire of nastiness, petty feuds and constant bickering rather than debate. It's spoiled. It's a real fucking shame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 11:17 AM "Regarding both the above quotes. Jim himself has already accepted his meaning was unclear." I thought my statement was self explanatory - perhaps I should have written "sorry you didn't understand it" but let's not belabor the point The point about Travellers and rubbish is not as straightforward as is that of the settled community Because the vast majority of them are denied access to permanent stopping places, they are forced to settle illegally on land unsuitable for habitation, without any of the facilities we take fro granted - light, running water-sanitation... Traveller evictions had to be given two weeks notice - now, the change of law means they can be evicted at any time. Councils refuse to collect Travellers rubbish and firms which hire out rubbish receptacles generally refuse to supply them to Travellers, so the stoppers dump the rubbish wherever they can - when they are evicted, they have neither the will nor the means to remove their accumulated everyday debris. Add to this the practice of locals who use the presence of Travellers to get rid of their own rubbish In the eighties, the Wandsworth Council in conjunction with the police and with the co-operation of the Local Gypsy Council, mounted surveillance equipment around London's oldest Gypsy site in Garrett Lane - they found that locals came at night and dumped furniture (around 6 sofas wardrobes, beds....), televisions, fridges, bikes, even cars...... Although this was reported to the Local paper, it never appeared - as far as I know, no action was ever taken against the dumpers who had been identified and in the public eye, the Travellers were the culprits. THe solution of providing stopping places for Travellers was arrived at in the late 1960s - thanks largely to protests by students, many of whom had been inspired by the Radio Ballad, The Travelling People' Permanent sites with hard-standing, toilets, electricity, kitchens (sometimes) and wardens were set up by the Councils, rent was paid and Travellers could come and go as they pleased - some allowed temporary stopping on vacant sites on the understanding that the temps moved off when the regulars returned Some of the most well-kept, best organised and cleanest sites we ever visited were these permanent ones - ones outside Swindon and Bristol spring to mind John Major's Government put a stop to all this when his Government repealed the 1968 alllowing the councils to closed down sites formerly demanded by law, leaving the Travellers to fend for themselves. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 11:20 AM "Amazing, I nip back down here to see if it's worth returning" I did point out that I only opened this topic when the thread looked as if it had run out of steal and then, I only did to provide an example of why threads dissapear Pity you didn't get back earlier Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 May 18 - 11:24 AM Jim you'd be much more benefit collating all the best of this in a thread of your own.. ideally upstairs in music linking songs, culture, and mainstream perceptions... This material is wasted just scattered randomly in these BS threads about arguing in threads... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Stu Date: 08 May 18 - 11:34 AM "Pity you didn't get back earlier" Pity I came back at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Raggytash Date: 08 May 18 - 12:19 PM Stu, As you are obviously well aware some posters do tend to hanker on about their own particular field. Sometimes it can be seen as irrational or a pain in the backside (delete as applicable) What could help is a more rational post from a more rational poster. Perhaps you could assist in this regard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads... From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 May 18 - 12:58 PM "Pity I came back at all." Sorry you think so Jim Carroll
-Joe Offer- |