BS: Damned cyclists

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 10:47 AM

On a being seen aspect. I've probably become paranoid but back when my father was a bit more mobile and walked the dog, we got him to wear a high vis jacket just for crossing the road.

I'm rarely out on foot at night but my own regular coat at least has some small reflective stripes on it and we keep a couple of hi vis vests (don't think they are compulsory in the UK but I believe, not that we will be taking car abroad) in the car just in case we had to get out in the dark.

Like I say, maybe I'm just paranoid but is there anything wrong in the idea of being easier to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 04:27 AM

I'm afraid there's nothing particularly new about that.

Indeed, Bob. For a given value of "we"... 30, 40, 50 years, we were the ones being muttered about by our 'elders & betters'. Now we do the muttering! In the days of my youth, normal motorway speed for me was 80-85 mph (I don't recall that I ever got impatient with someone in the fast lane going slower than me, mind). An old habit, also, was, just once, to see how fast a new car would go (on a suitably straight & empty piece of motorway, I hasten to add!). I'm not sure I've broken that one, cos I haven't had a new car for 10 years. Which brings me to...

Normal M-way speed dropped to 68-75 years ago (I don't recall when). Ten years ago, when I was doing a 152 mile round trip to the office, much of it up & down the M11, I went from a Volvo 940 to a V70. All of a sudden, I had an electronic dash. I could see my fuel consumption. I very quickly got into the habit of tucking in behind a juggernaut doing 56-58mph. It makes a hell of difference to the fuel you burn. It also added a mere 10 minutes or so to a journey that was 90-odd anyway. I now actually find it very difficult to make myself drive at over 60, unless it's a quick sprint to overtake! Another side-effect was no more irritating concertinas / rolling traffic jams. You know, those moments when you get slowed down to 60 / 50 / 40 mph for no apparent reason, only to speed up, slow down again, etc, sitting there, fingers tapping the steering wheel, thinking "What the f***…"

All of which is to say, when we're young we think we know it all. The older we get, the less we think we know, as a rule. I think most people realise, as they age, that rushing around like a maniac doesn't get you there (for any given value of 'there') any quicker, and that taking a tiny bit of trouble to nod, smile, hold a door for someone, have a door held for you, oils the wheels of human interaction & makes the world feel a nicer place.

And there's your damned 'ists in a nutshell (alrighht, so it's a coconut, so what? :p ). The problem with traffic is that everyone is dashing around cocooned. For a motorist, it's a metal box & a mindset, for cyclists, it's just the mindset. But it's been observed time & again (remember the Goofy cartoon? It's that old...) that when wheels get involved, we isolate ourselves, and human interaction only restarts when Something Happens, by which time we're all steamed up and It Was Their Fault, Not Mine!!!

You know the good thing about the Good Old Days? They're the OLD DAYS! If you stop & think about for minute, the world has, on the whole, improved through the years. I just wish I was still young so I could enjoy it for longer! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: BobL
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:40 AM

Thanks pfr, that would indeed have been a sensible course of action. Raggy, I agree that consideration for others is all too lacking these days, but I'm afraid there's nothing particularly new about that.

Incidentally, if I could have my way, all car drivers would have to show P plates until they'd passed the Advanced test, would require 3 years' experience on a motorbike before applying for a car licence, and have to show proficiency on a push-bike before graduating to the motorized form. I might, however, spare intending cyclists the need to pass a pedestrian's test first.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 10:52 PM

This scene would even have been the highlight of an episode of "Mr Bean"...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 10:38 PM

"what alternatives can you suggest"

smallest footprint double decker twin buggies...


As far as side by side ultra wide twin buggies are concerned,
I'd presume they'd need to be collapsed to fit through a train door...???

So is it not far more good sense and considerate
to concertina one down before entering the packed cramped busy platform stream of exiting travellers
[with or without cycles],
rather than barging through and forcing impossible bottlenecks.
It seemed there were enough family members to carry twins and collapsed pram onto the platform,
rather than at the last second before boarding the train.

At it's worse comedic extreme, travellers yesterday could have faced a choice of either falling under the stationary train,
or tumbling over the fence into a river...

Maybe I should have positioned myself on the footbridge
and videoed for potential youtube fail classic...????

But I was in too much hurry to hang around this farce, so guess the train ticket inspector
must have sorted it out effectively...

[more proof of why UK railways should not run driver only trains...!!!]

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:18 PM

The other evening, Lady Hillary and I were on our way home, on the expressway, keeping an eye open for deer, when we hit a deer carcass. This was just about sunset but the carcass was nearly invisible until we were too close to evade into one of the neighboring lanes. We hit it squarely. After the hit, the check engine light came on so we pulled to the side and called the police to clean up the mess. When the trooper arrived he was unable to find enough remains to clean up. Our damage was a torn wire and a cracked bumper molding.

Even in conditions of good or moderate visibility, it can be difficult to see hazards, like cyclists, until it is too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:13 PM

My bike evolution was a german Schwinn, Motobecone, yellow signed Trek, shock absorber bikes and a 60lbs electric Ridealong with automatic transmission.

Now we have stupid laws that ban advanced electric bikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:59 PM

The basic problem BobL is that consideration for other people is a thing of the past. It occurs in every aspect of life, wherever you are in the UK. It's starting to occur in Ireland albeit to a far lesser extent (at the moment)

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: BobL
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:44 PM

There is indeed a point, but what alternatives can you suggest, given that babies can't walk and that twins happen? Tandem pushchairs with one twin behind the other? Old-fashioned prams with one at either end?

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:12 PM

I see your point, esp. the other family members who make for a real traffic jam.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 12:23 PM

... moan of the day [postponed from yesterday]

Twin's double buggy push chairs - the side by side version...


I got off the train to see my mum yesterday.
It's a small local station with narrow platforms.

Between the fence on the outer side of the platform, and the stationary train,
there's just enough walk-way clearance for 2 or 3 people,
or a couple of cyclists pushing their bikes.

Now imagine the sheer bloody nuisance awkwardness of a big wide double buggy pushchair
and additional family members around it,
pushing through the stream of cramped travellers, several with bikes, trying to exit or enter the train...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:44 AM

Too many with only one light working and the other beaming up in the air: need more spot checks!
And how did some of us older cyclists ever manage with cycle lights that DIDN'T flash and dazzke motorists?

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:46 AM

I see a lot of motorists driving around with front and rear fog-lights on when there's no fog, just a spot of drizzle or the slightest hint of a faint whisp of mist. Or no lights when there's thick fog. You can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:00 AM

Oh, and not so much a chip on their shoulders as an over-weening sense of entitlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:58 AM

Yeah, I see a lot of motorists with no lights on. They're not so much a danger to themselves as unlit cyclists but they are to other road users.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:56 AM

Yes, it depends on the cyclist. Some seem sensible, others...

Let me just say that recently a cyclist dressed in black, no helmet, no lights, came at us over a hill in the pitch dark. Fortunately the DH reacted quickly enough to avoid hitting him as he tried to turn left.

No helmet, no lights, dark clothes. I see it too often. They seem to have a chip on the shoulder, but the people they are going to hurt most are themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:39 AM

..depends on the cyclist...

some of us have a better sense of self preservation...

some of us live long enough to retire from 2 wheels battle weary, but still alive...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:27 AM

Yesterday I saw two cyclists leave the local hire shop and cycle the wrong way down the quite busy one way road in the town, today I have seen another two.

Now I know this will not go down well with some factions but if I'm in my steel box that weighs over a ton and cyclists are basically fragile bone and soft tissue guess who is going to come out better in any collision.

All too often cyclist negate ALL their responisibities and leave all the thinking to the motorist. It is a two way process, or should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:41 AM

"crowded with schoolkids whose parents could not be bothered to drive them to school"

that is satire... right...???

no.. seriously.. it is meant to be funny....?????

...because I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.....

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:07 AM

The answer there is to make it easy, safe and normal for the kids to cycle or walk to school.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:04 AM

But surely, if all those schoolchildren's parents got their cars out and took them to school, the roads would be chock-a-block with all the traffic?

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:58 AM

And.. to get to where I am working today in West London, it takes two buses or a combination of four overground/tube trains. Today I travelled by bus and the journey took nearly 4 times as long as driving as the first bus didn't stop do to it being crowded with schoolkids whose parents could not be bothered to drive them to school.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:52 AM

Surely the answer to cyclists (and cars) running red lights would be to build footbridges and/or subways across every road junction in the country that has traffic lights including pelican crossings, then the cyclist/car drivers can do what they like without endangering pedestrians. Funded by a purchase tax on all cycles/and fines for motorist violations at a high enough level to ensure that the project is cost-neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:35 AM

Most crashes - or "accidents" as foolish people insist on calling them - happen in daylight; most happen at junctions. Overwhelmingly drivers are at fault.

All I can say there (in reference to Manitas' comment you responded to)

Is that my observance (as a passenger in a car) is one where IMO, the cyclist puts him/herself at risk. I've not been a cyclist but I'd never have tried that manoeuvre alongside a truck on moped or (small - never passed me test or rode the bigger things) motorbike. And there are times I do wonder about the "road sense" of a few cyclists.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:51 PM

That was excellent Thompson, I really enjoyed it. Horrible when Death arrived and the orchids all died instantly!

We have the odd huge 4X4 parking outside our house in the mornings to deliver their 'legless' children to our village school. (It had a good Ofsted rating, and pupils now arrive from many of the surrounding villages)

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:37 PM

Before I go, a short story.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 02:16 PM

But there's no accounting for half-wits who think they are invulnerable

Sadly that also applies to pedestrians. I am amazed by the number of pedestrians that walk along the road with dark clothing. This time of year the contrast between bright sunlight and trees shading the road means that pedestrians in dark clothing tend to merge into the shadows.
Many of the roads where I am are really 1.5 lanes wide with no pavements. Tractors, cyclists, pedestrians, trucks all share the same restricted space and with oncoming traffic all make for whatever verge may exist. Sharp eyes,patience and slow/moderate speed is a necessity.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 02:12 PM

Try again...

"A little reality about the horse rider and the people on bicycles. She was riding on a road that was garlanded with notices saying there was a triathlon coming through at that time on that day. She should not have been there."

Absolute codswallop. The reality is that she had a legal right to be there - posting a notice that some kind of 'event' is taking place in no way precludes other road-users from being on that stretch of road unless there is an official road-closure in place, which there wasn't. And, being there legally, the horse-rider had a right to expect other road users to behave in accordance with the Highway Code - taking part in an 'event' on an open public road does not, in any way absolve competitors from their responsibilities under the Highway Code - in fact, rather the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 02:09 PM

Oh bollocks! Apologies for the underlining - bloody HTML!

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 02:08 PM

"A little reality about the horse rider and the people on bicycles. She was riding on a road that was garlanded with notices saying there was a triathlon coming through at that time on that day. She should not have been there."

Absolute codswallop. The reality is that she had a legal right to be there - posting a notice that some kind of 'event' is taking place in no way precludes other road-users from being on that stretch of road unless there is an official road-closure in place, which there wasn't. And, being there legally, the horse-rider had a right to expect other road users to behave in accordance with the Highway Code - taking part in an 'event' on an open public road does not, in any way absolve competitors from their responsibilities under the Highway Code - in fact, rather the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 01:47 PM

Sen - lights and fresh batteries are essential kit.

But there's no accounting for half-wits who think they are invulnerable...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 01:44 PM

I love all dogs except for anything smaller and yappier than a Jack Russell...

But none of them should be allowed to drive or cycle unsupervised...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM

Thompson, in answer to your post about the drug dealer's 'profession' (ha ha) he was on his way to sell his wares around the area, and had tons of the stuff about his person. At the Inquest it was noted that he seldom used lights on his bike to avoid being seen (and how successful he was!) He also took drugs himself (heroin)

None of these things make him a good father (or a good cyclist)
I was upset at the time by the tragedy of the whole affair, but still...

I can't see why motorists should crawl along at a slow speed at night in case they come upon an unlit bicycle with the rider in black clothes. Even from a car travelling at 10mph he'd have been invisible.

Obviously not all cyclists are drug-taking gear dealers. But there are quite a few unlit nitwits about in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 01:28 PM

I love dogs. Much nicer people than people. Unconditional affection. And they don't leave nasty shit all over Muscat threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:42 PM

Hatey hatey hate. I'm out of here for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:09 PM

Don't get me started on those extendable retractable dog leads. They should be banned. Along with their dogs. And their owners.

No, I relent. Any dog that signs a form, fully witnessed, that states that it promises never to shit except on its owner's own carpet is exempt from the ban. Not that bloody lead though. The ban stays for that lead.

Funniest and most fitting thing I ever saw apropos of a dog and its lead was in Bude. This thuggish-looking bloke had one of those massive terriers, of the type that Mugabe probably had guarding his palace and that eats babies for breakfast, on a chunky metal chain lead. I walked past 'em with a carrier bag full of sausages I'd just bought from the butcher. The cur took a sudden interest, whipped round the back of the bloke's legs to get at me bangers, wrapping the chain round his legs and promptly decking him. The dog actually looked very guilty and apologetic...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:56 AM

The rider had every right to be there, the road hadn't been closed for the race. It may have bee necessary to move the horse from one place to another. The race participants agreed to abide by the Highway Code when they entered the race,

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:55 AM

As always... there's too much of this us versus them bollocks...!!!

We should all unite against skateboarders and drunks in charge of mobility scooters...

..and extendable/retractable dog leads....

..and bloody lovey dovey families walking hand in hand hogging the entire width of the pavement...


... and dog shit...


I would have included jet skis - they're blood annoying - but so far I've not encountered any inland...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:52 AM

I believe this is the most frequent cause of death in London cyclists.

Most crashes - or "accidents" as foolish people insist on calling them - happen in daylight; most happen at junctions. Overwhelmingly drivers are at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:41 AM

BTW, I still have a bike, and I still ride it - considerably less than I did as a young man, admittedly - and I try to ride exactly as I drive - carefully, and observing the rules of the Highway Code. Seems the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:41 AM

If only her stupid father had had some sense and put lights on his bike (and stopped selling heroin, coke and weed) she might have had a daddy still.

Hang on just a minute, now.

a) What is the connection between the dealer's choice of profession and his being knocked from his bicycle?

b) Any driver who doesn't see a cyclist until he's knocked the person over is driving too fast, matter a damn whether the cyclist has lights or not.

A little reality about the horse rider and the people on bicycles. She was riding on a road that was garlanded with notices saying there was a triathlon coming through at that time on that day. She should not have been there. Sure, the riders behaved badly and dangerously - the first through should have signalled the others to slow - but this is the nature of competition in our society; the devil take the hindmost.

As for all the codswallop of the last few postings, oh, honestly, stop it. I am a typical cyclist: elderly, creaky, getting my shopping on my bicycle. In the imagination of the tabloids and the radio jocks, "cyclists" have morphed into a kind of racist stereotype. And some people are stupid enough to be pulled in, in much the same way that some people are stupid enough to believe Fox News.

We're all sharing the road. Stop believing stereotypes because they give you permission to hate and sneer.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:38 AM

100% with you on cars parked on pavements. Another of the bees buzzing around my bonnet. My favourite Page on Facebook is our local 'Parking Like a Twat' Page. Now I do get apoplectic at some of the photos of twattish parking on there!

Trying to blame motorists for 'creating bad cyclists' really is a cop-out though, isn't it? Bad cyclists are created by precisely the same things as bad motorists - selfish attitudes, lack of care, ignorance (or wilful disobedience) of the Highway Code. Nothing more, nothing less - both types as bad as each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:29 AM

Cars parked on pavements. We're all in this together. That's all YOU'RE getting! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM

You're being wilfully obtuse, Steve. It won't wash. I've explained the issues I frequently have with cyclists riding badly on footpaths, including those marked with 'No Cycling' signs. I've explained the big problem here locally of cyclists riding at night without lights. Ive linked to a video of what can only be described as 'cycle-hooliganism' against a horse and rider. I've conceded that there are bad motorists as well as bad cyclists - that there are bad cyclists is an undeniable truth (undeniable except, perhaps, by people who are determined to be wilfully obtuse). That's all you're getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:19 AM

what are damned eyelists

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:18 AM

If I could get off my arse, literally off the bog, I should be an activist for public transport and cycling...

But in my militant student youth I never dreamt I'd end up stuck in the house
as such an overweight, lethargic, apathetic lump of old bloke health conditions...

Damn that Madonna,
she's only a few weeks older than me, and there's bugger all wrong with her feet, knees, and bowels
a few million dollars can't sort out...

Mind you, Michael Jackson and Prince were also only a few weeks older than me...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM

I imagine your 1.6 litre Golf can go just as fast as my 1.6 litre Ford Focus. 110 mph not impossible. You car weighs over a tonne and was made using precious and dwindling resources at great cost to the environment, and that cost continues as it chugs around the country polluting the air with toxic gases and particles and giving off vast quantities of carbon dioxide, and its eventual disposal causes even more problems. A good bike weighs about 12 kilos, gives off no pollution and will last longer than your car. I'm not seeing things in black and white here, just protesting about the posts here that seem to imply that cyclists are evil beings who simply must get out of the bloody way, the bastards. It's my conjecture that bad cyclists who show aggression have been created by even worse, even more aggressive motorists. My main cycling years were from the mid-80s to the mid-90s and I cycled all over London and all over the Westcountry almost every day, thousands of miles a year, and I didn't meet this aggression. It's a relatively new phenomenon, and it seems to me that motorists are using the very glimpse of Lycra and helmets to both trigger and justify their prejudices. They should be more humble. Motorists are a big part of environmental problems whereas cyclists are not. That's quite a big thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:32 AM

I nearly bumped into a Lycra Lout this morning. Idiot came out right in front of me!

(This was on foot and in a building and I think we both laughed. I was a bit surprised to spot him about an hour later, in a classroom, still in his cycling gear but I guess that if, like me, he was only to be there for something lasting a couple of hours, it would be too much hassle to change out of and back into?)

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:08 AM

Heard when approaching "Oval Drift" - "cyclists sir......thousands of 'em"!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 07:44 AM

Well I have to agree that many cyclists behave very well on the road - even Lycra-clad ones - I did say so much, in a reply to pfr. And, had I continued my cycling activities during my youth into the present day, I would very probably have become Lycra-clad myself (though it wouldn't be a pleasant sight now I'm in my 70s!).

And I don't have a 'gas-guzzling, climate-destroying, ultra-powered tin overcoat', nor do I have a desire for one - my six-year-old 1.6 litre VW Golf is more than sufficient to convey me, Mrs Backwoodsperson, our Border Terrier, a bunch of guitars, and a mandolin around the eight thousand-or-so miles it does each year (and strictly within the applicable speed limits at all times!), without any episodes of apoplectic rage on my part. So I feel justified in also defending drivers - I don't turn into a lunatic when I get behind the wheel, and I'm confident that I'm by no means unique.

So I return to the original point I made - there are bad cyclists, there are bad drivers, none of those who fall into either category are in any position to criticise those in the other category. Glasshouses, stones, etc.