Help with coupla Irish song words

Subject: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST,Wellsy
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 11:24 PM

I'm learning some of the gaselic verses of "For ireland I'd not tell her name". Been learning the pron. from a speaker from the Connemara Gaeltacht. But a couple of things have us stumped.
Firstly, there's a line ' Is deise ro mhor ins an mhnaoi'.

That last word - my Gaeilge friend is not familiar with it. It's obviously an archaic or regional inflection of some other word. I've looked it up in online irish dictionaries without success. He reckons it'd be "W-NEE", and admits that's awkward even for a native speaker

Correct ? And, can I replace it with something which will also make sense and roll off the tongue more easily. I'm not too worried about purism, as these really old songs are rarely set in stone. There seem to always be alternate spellings, pronunciations and even words.

Thanks

Wellsy, Queensland, Australia

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:56 AM

Can't help with the word without the text (Martin Ryan probably can) but this is an English language version of this beautiful song from Clare singer, TOM LENIHAN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:42 AM

https://www.cranfordpub.com/langan/for_ireland.htm

See if that's any help.

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST,Wellsy
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:25 AM

Thanks Jim carroll. I do know the English versions of the song, but I do want to sing it partly in irish.

So, who is Martin Ryan, and how would i find him.

Ta, Wellsy

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:52 AM

Martin is an Irish speaker and a singer who contributes regularly to this site
Joe Offer (contact nummer on introductory page) may be able to help you get in touch with him or he may know more Irish speakers
Good luck
Jim

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 07:54 AM

According to Wiktionary, "mhnaoi" is a weakened form of "mnaoi", which is an archaic or dialectal dative singular of "bean" (woman).

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:07 AM

There are a number of threads on ar Éirinn ní neosfainn cé hí. I do not know how to link to them.

Aréir is mé ag téarnamh ar neoin
Ar an dtaobh eile den teora dá mbím,
Sea do thaobhnaigh an spéirbhean im chomhair
’Dh’fhág taomanach breoite lag tinn,
Le haonghean dá méin is dá cló,
Dá briathra is dá beol tanaí binn,
Do léimeas faoi dhéin dul ’na comhair
’S ar Éirinn ní neosfainn cé hí.

Dá ngéillfeadh an spéirbhean dom ghlór
Is iad ráite mo bheoil a bheadh fíor,
Go deimhin duit, ná déanfainn do ghnó,
Do léirchur i gcóir ’s i gcrích,
Do léifinn léirstair dom stór,
Is ba mhéin liom í a phógadh ó mo chroí,
Do bhéarfainn an chraobh di ina dóid,
’S ar Éirinn ní neosfainn cé hí.

A ghrá ghil, bí páirteach liom féin,
’S go háirithe, dá mb’fhéidir liom scríobh,
Bheinn ag gáire le bánchnis na gcraobh
Dá bhfaighinn áirithe ó aoinne cé hí,
Níl a cairde róshásta liom féin
Chun áras a dhéanamh ná tíos,
Ach ó tá sí, de réir ráite do bhéil,
Ní náir duit a léamh dúinn cé hí.
Last night and I wandering as you do,
On the other side of my lands I was,
There a beautiful woman approached him
Who left me sick and moody afterwards.
With her lovely bearing and shape,
Her sweet words and thin lips,
I hastened to be in her presence
But for all of Ireland I'd not tell her name.

If this maiden submits to my voice,
are said my Bel would be true,
In fact you, or déanfainn your business,
Your léirchur for and out,
Your would read léirstair me dear,
are most regards I was kissing from my heart,
Your I would give her a Maeldoid the championship,
and Ireland I'd not tell her name.

Oh my true love, be sympathetic to me,
and especially, if I may write,
I would be laughing like the white of the branches,
If I get certainty as to who she is,
Her friends are not happy with me
For us to make a home together,
But if she is, according to what you say,
Don't fear to tell me her name.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcNc_zUanSU

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:51 AM

The song is an 'Aísling', (a 'code' song) a form which is said to have come into being during the Penal times when it was impossible to express nationalist feelings without putting your life or liberty in danger
Here, the woman represents Ireland
In similar songs, such as 'An Raibh Tú ag an gCarraig?' - 'Were You at the Rock?', the references are religious, in this latter case the mass rocks that are still scattered around rural Ireland - there's one about ten miles from here in South Clare
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:09 PM

Alternatively:
Is Ar Éirinn Ní Neosfainn Cé Hí translates as ‘For Ireland I’d Not Tell Her Name’. A traditional song, believed to have been written in 1810 by a native of Kerry, it was first published by E. Walsh in 1847. Tradition attributes it to a young man’s secret love for his brother's bride: Too poor to support her and too shy to propose, he had gone abroad to seek his fortune. But when he returned to claim his beloved, he found her married to his brother. He wrote this song for her but, for obvious reasons, refused to reveal her name. Written in old Gaelige, it’s translated words include “There is a beautiful young maiden / On the far side of my farm / Generosity and kindness shine in her face / With the exceeding beauty of her countenance”………“I would regale her with my story / And I longed to take her to my heart / Where I'd grant her pride of place / But for Ireland I'd not tell her name

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:39 PM

I'm afraid your Facebook information is somewhat off-beam Iains
This is Tom Munnelly's information on the song from 'Mount Callan Garland
Jim Carroll

Cassette 1, Side B, Track 3. IFC TM 81/B/2. August 19th 1972. Tom did not recollect a specific source, although he recalled that it had been in the family a long time.

Known in Scotland as ‘Tweedside’, this beautiful air is said to have been written by David Rizzio (or Riccio), musician and secretary to Mary Queen of Scots. His affection for the Queen was manifest and the amount of time he spent in her private chamber the source of much speculation. On March 9th 1566 the unfortu¬nate Italian was dragged from the pregnant Queen’s side and
butchered before her eyes by a number of armed lords who delivered him no less than fifty dagger-strokes.61

In its Irish form this song, (trans.’For Ireland I will not tell whom she is’), is classified as a reverdie by O Tuama.62 The classification refers to the greenwood setting in which the poet encounters the beautiful maiden much as in an aiding. However, if they are vision-poems, 0 Tuama reminds us that they are ‘ aisling na súl n-oscailte go minic' ,6S And indeed some versions of the song carried intimations of carnality which at least implied that the interpretations of the singers at any rate were down-to-earth, no matter how high-flown the poetry. When Conny Cochlan of Derrynasaggart, Baile Bhúime, sang his version for A.M. Freeman in 1914 he told the collector that it was a dialogue between a married man and his brother, a priest, in which the former lets the priest know' that he is aware of his passion for his wife!64 The Clare Gaelic scholar Eugene O’ Curry stated that this song was written originally about 1810 by a Finneen, or Florence, Scannell, a Kerry schoolmaster65.

The song in English which Tom sings has been about for a good many years likewise, as is witnessed by the similar version which Freeman noted down in London in 1915. Interestingly enough in our context, his informant was a Frank Brewe from Ruan in West Clare.66

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:39 PM

Or further to Jim's explanation: about 2 mins 31 secs in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzA-VK9wpTg

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:01 PM

Nce clip Iains
ANOTHER AÍSLING HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:09 PM

Jim Your explanation is better researched than mine. I used explanatory notes from an album "Beyond The Waves" - Ciara Considine. Not the first time album notes create controversy!

A note that kind of brings it all together:


http://www.capeirish.com/bbworks/piano_arr/pdf/for_irel2-p.pdf

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:48 PM

It's quite difficult to judge these songs unless you tie them up with the situation that brought them about
I've alwways been fasinated by Brendan Breathnach's linking the air with Mary Queen of Scot's murdered lover
Some disagree, but Breathnach was probably one of the most respected of traditional music scholars
Sleeve notes writers are as dependable as Wiki - it depends who provides the information
Jim

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:09 AM

Thanks reinhard. That's what I thought; an archaism. But how do you say it

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:29 AM

Reinhard is correct - it's a form of the irregular noun "bean" (woman). The Wiktionary entry looks to be based on O Donaill's Irish-English Dictionary.

As to pronunciation: depending on context and dialect, the "mh" can have any of three effects
- silence the "m" completely. For example - the dictionary compiler's name can also be spelled "O Domhnaill"!
- be pronounced as "v"
- be pronounced as "w".
The last two will tend to be regionally distributed.
If I were singing it (which I don't), I would instinctively sing "ince on v-knee" - forgive the phonetics!

Regards

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:20 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Help with coupla Irish song words
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:28 AM

I knew we could rely on you Martin
See ya Sunday
Jim