UK Folk Revival 2018

Subject: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Despondent of Slough
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM

How much do is it now propelled by Commercial pressures and what are the advantages and disadvantages of Commercialisation

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM

It was much better when it was propelled by beer and sex...

But we are all used to paying for beer,
and in the 21st century paying for sex has become more socially mainstream;
so the prostitution of folk music for £££$$$ was inevitable...

I know which of the 3 I prefer most - and can still get for free...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 12:47 PM

I don't think that commercialism plays much part in folk music for most of us. I don't begrudge buying cds to help out with the cost of producing them -or dvds.


If a friend manages to interest a major artist in their songwriting. I don't feel jealousy. Just very pleased for them.

Once the people with major recording contracts get involved, very often the artist and songwriter lose artistic control. But ironically the commercial decisions often increase the songs exposure to the public, and the likelihood of the song entering the folk repertoire.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 01:51 PM

I don't think it has changed that much since the 60s. There was always a certain percentage at the top of the tree making money out of it. We live in a capitalist society. Bound to happen. As far as the UK is concerned the only thing different that has happened is a group of indifferent lively chantey singers got a million quid contract, but they've probably spent that on holidays by now and things are back to normal. To hit the very top in folk you really have to sell your soul to the devil, but thankfully not many do that.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 02:52 PM

The OP's writing style is very familiar. I don't think s/he lives anywhere near Slough.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:06 PM

Advantage:
Those who keep the wolf from the door by charging to entertain spend many hours practising and improving their product. If they had to keep the wolf from the door in other ways they would find it hard to do this.
I don't have a problem with this.

Without those at the top being paid and pushing the boundaries the standard would be much lower (in theory).

There are many layers of commercialism and non-commercialism in folk music. They are all part of the fabric and we'd be poorer aesthetically without them. (And that's from a died-in-the-wool socialist.)

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:14 PM

What "revival" ?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:17 AM

Very much a move to promote the "young thruster" many with great musical talents as well as the established folk professionals

Attitudes tend to be becoming entrenched by the "hobbyist" as opposed to the professionals who are of course looking to make a living

Any EFDSS views available?

Ray

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:22 AM

What I object to is the kind of faded Punk performers who feel the best way to revive their career is to claim Folkdom. And charge more for one badly sung performance (and playing punk guitar regardless of skill) than the same weekend of top notch ceilidh bands all put together.

And then have the effrontery to harrang and hector the audience on who to vote for - in one party!

And Bragg they have been true Folkies all along.
Not on that stipend Billy boy! You is in it for what it pays, and it ain't just "covering costs".

Rant over - I am off to a folk festival where they have a pleasant weekend AND a ceilidh with a decent band.

The White Horse Folk Festival.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM

GUEST, Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:14 PM, good question, it is one I would have asked myself had you not beaten me to it. Don't expect an answer though. Mr Red above has got the measure of it, very few real Folk Festivals around these days they are all now "Music" Festivals where anything goes. As has been pointed out in another thread there is a whale of a difference between a real "Folk Song" and what the folk sing.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:39 AM

Observer. Isn't commercialism about what the folk listen to rather than what the folk sing?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 07:31 AM

Mr Red - somehow we get the impression you might not be that keen on Barking Billy
or his musical abilities and politics...???

Live and let live I'd say... my big gripe is that after his conversion to folk,
the media and BBC in particular
have elevated him to the staus of grey beared authority and spokesman of folk...

No he aint, and neither does he deserve to be so feted... yet...

But this aint entirely Billy's fault,
even though he was not so slow in oportunistically making most
of this middle aged/class 2nd career boost...

..surely the high tories of Brit folk should applaud him for such brazen grasping 'me-firstism'...???

Though, it's not that far fetched to posit that the 1970s punk generation
were the true heirs and evolution of authentic amateurish working class trad folk spirit...

btw.. his main punk guitar was a Burns Steer... can't really get more trad patriotic British than that...
and still retain credibility as a good socialist internationalist electric punkfolk guitarist,
without a single taint of xenophobic petty Englander brexiteer in his character...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:05 AM

GUEST,jag.

1. What people (folk) listen to has got nothing to do with folk music.

2. Commercialism, strictly speaking, is ALL about what people (folk) PART WITH MONEY to listen to.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 10:47 AM

As one who was there in the first revival, the biggest differences are the lack of participation and the social status of the "folkies".
There seems to be a comparatively youthful academic elite who kno0w absolutely nothing about traditional music, how or why it used to be performed.
In my youth, all folk music was amateur, builders, farmers, labourers, women and children were all expected to contribute to the general wellbeing of society, either by singing, dancing, reciting, or simply joining in.
The present revival ...if there is such a thing, is a different beast.
The audience expected to listen in silence to the personal woes of singer songwriters, or bee indoctrinated by the likes of Mr Bragg into the wonders of an heroic "working class" which no longer exists.
If we survive all that, the coup de grace will be the orchestral genre of folk music, a thousand bloody fiddles, five drum kits, and Christ knows what else, walloping along at breakneck speed, while some psuedo artistic twat

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 10:51 AM

Sorry that was Ake

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:07 AM

My contention why so much current televised folk is so bland & boring,
is that it has become dominated by 'tastefull' sophisticated music college
instrumental virtuosity and arrangements...???

but then again.. public schoolboys also infiltrated and pulled strings in classic era rock and punk...
Just, they hid themselves a bit more efectively...

I'll also state my educated opinion
that the punk indie self recording and distribution ethic
owed much to preceding and parallell cottage industry folk music vanity press record lables...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:09 AM

The first revival had just about petered out by the 30s. Blimey, Ake, you must be knocking a century! I know plenty of youthful academic and non-academic folksingers trying to scrape a few bob who know more about the tradition than a lot of the old farts around.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:21 AM

I thought the first "revival" started in the fifties with the Carter family, MacColl, The Clancy Bros etc......Before that it was just Traditional Music since time immemorial.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:26 AM

Nope. What is commonly referred to as the First Revival started in about 1888 with the collecting activities of the likes of Baring-Gould, Lucy Broadwood and Frank Kidson reaching a peak in the 1910s after the formation of the Folk Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society. As I said it started to wane in the 20s after some of the pioneers had died. The Second Revival started in the 50s with the impetus created by American influences and Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd, and is still in progress, not in decline as some like to think.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM

Thanks for that information Steve.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:39 AM

Revived almost as much as Dracula in the Hammer series of movie sequels...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:44 AM

By the '50's the Carter Family was a mainstream country music act that was comprised of Maybelle and her daughters. A.P. and Sara from the original trio weren't involved (although Sara and Maybelle reunited later on to do some of the old songs).

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Ged Fox
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:36 PM

"As one who was there in the first revival …"


Wow! Did you ever get to meet Tom Ravenscroft?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:52 PM

Don't be silly, Ged, that was the Renaissance wasn't it?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 04:18 PM

Generally on this forum when people talk about the "folk revival" they are referring to the revival in the 1950s and 1960s.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 04:55 PM

The audience expected to listen in silence to the personal woes of singer songwriters, or be indoctrinated by the likes of Mr Bragg into the wonders of an heroic "working class" which no longer exists.
If we survive all that, the coup de grace will be the orchestral genre of folk music, a thousand bloody fiddles, five drum kits, and Christ knows what else, walloping along at breakneck speed, while some psuedo artistic twat

Sums the modern trend up perfectly GUEST Akenaton.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Andy7
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:29 PM

I enjoy many different kinds of music.

But I got into folk music, many years ago, because a friend introduced me to a folk club that was held weekly (and still is!) in a pub on the south coast.

Wow! I thought ... where else could you hear such a variety of singing and music - from expert to beginner - all having a go? And wow again, a place where I might even try a song myself, after a few weeks!

This, to me, is what sets folk music apart from other genres. Is there a local jazz club, operatic club, heavy metal club, rock club, where I could just turn up and have a go, with my amateurish tries, among a group of friendly and welcoming people?

While newcomers and beginners are still so welcome at the clubs, there will always be a place for folk music. And so, I hope, and believe, there will always be folk revivals. There are not so very many places nowadays, where ordinary people can still play and sing.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:59 PM

Amen to that, Andy!

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 06:06 PM

There is room for all types of folk - I go to the occasional singaround or session but the quality is variable with, it has to be said, a few people who will never be able to sing or play well - I don't mind that in that context but I prefer to pay money and see good quality amateurs or professionals - I am just pleased that we have such a wealth of talent and lots of young people who want to get involved in the music that I love.

I also love it when people take folk music in new directions, whether that be by introducing electronica or orchestras into folk - as an example Jim Moray has done both and is one of the artists I admire most. There is room for it all as far as I am concerned and people who try to limit, or who complain about, experimentation and new initiatives should, quite frankly, be more open minded (you don't have to like it but don't complain about it). Fortunately thanks to the efforts of younger artists and some wiser older ones the negative and cliched attitude to folk in the wider community is, I think, changing slowly and long may it continue. We need young people to get involved and be encouraged.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:13 AM

I disagree with Joe's conclusion. I feel if traditional music is twisted beyond recognitions and the emotional content jettisoned, it would be preferable to see the music sleep for a few decades until the "third revival"

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:14 AM

Apologies, that was Ake.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:56 AM

Stick trad folk in a time capsule 6 feet under concrete...

When the post nuclear apocalypse super intelligent cockroaches dig it up many centuries from now,
they can scratch their antenna and argue what the f@ck that was all about...

Of course... they'll probably still be gathering one evening a week under the rubble
singing Beetles songs...





[respect to Basil Brush's joke writer..]

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 05:08 AM

I used to feel very touched at the little group of pink and spiky haired, body-pierced fossilised Malcolm McLaren saddos who used to hang around the top of Royal Avenue on the Kings Road, PFR
Do you think there would be room in your time capsule for them?
I do hoe you are joking, but judging by the way the UK folk revival has gone, I fear not
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 05:32 AM

It is sad that you feel that way Ake. You'd rather the music disappeared unless all of it only survived in your preferred version of it? There is plenty of emotional content in the songs and music of younger people. In any case no-one is saying trade should disappear so why should only your preferred incarnation of folk survive. I suppose we shouldn't have modern jazz, contemporary classical music etc either then. Music has to open to change to remain relevant. I for one don't want to spend all night listening to songs about milkmaids and handloom maids

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 05:41 AM

A good, though not recent, example. My earliest experience of folk music was based around the mining songs of the north east. I loved those songs and still do. The Whiskey Priests took those songs, keeping the lyrics and melodies intact and put them into a folk rock context. They played those songs to thousands, perhaps millions of people across Europe. Many of those people I suspect may have grown to love folk music through their exposure to the songs in a different setting.

Incidentally the WP are staging a few reunion gigs around the country and I am very much looking forward to seeing them at Musicport Festival in Whitby in October - a great festival which celebrates music from across the world

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:26 AM

I feel if traditional music is twisted beyond recognition and the emotional content jettisoned, it would be preferable to see the music sleep for a few decades until it is rediscovered and appreciated for what it is and for what it represents - well said, I agree entirely, far too many people who know spout about "folk music" have forgotten, or worse have never realised, what it represents.

You can have all the "innovation", so-called "new initiatives" and "new directions" you like. BUT in doing so by introducing electronica or orchestras into folk you automatically make it more elitist and make it far less likely that "folk" can do anything other than just listen to it. As perfectly stated by Andy7 - "Is there a local jazz club, operatic club, heavy metal club, rock club, where I could just turn up and have a go, with my amateurish tries, among a group of friendly and welcoming people?

While newcomers and beginners are still so welcome at the clubs, there will always be a place for folk music."

The wonderful thing about TRADITIONAL Folk music, about TRADITIONAL Jazz and CLASSICAL music is that singers and musicians can perform it exactly as it was first heard without the need for 1 Watt of electrical power. The great thing about the music that apparently most posting here would seem to rather see adulterated than listen to CAN be performed by ordinary people of wildly varying talents for pleasure. As a musical genre IT HAS NEVER had to chase an audience to guarantee its survival, those wishing to do so, do so in the hope of making money out of it. The vast bulk of singer/songwriters do not write "folk songs", they write, record and offer up for sale what they hope will be a "hit" and that has got nothing whatsoever to do with "folk music".

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:37 AM

There is room for both. That is what I am saying. How many young people do you see at singarounds? Without people doing new things with the music it will die. We would all be the poorer for that

Most people who write their own songs in the folk idiom do so from the heart. If they happen to be successful then that's a bonus

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:49 AM

By 'in the folk idiom' I mean story songs or songs about social justice

Are you suggesting that people like Jez Lowe, Reg Neurosis, Jon Boden, Jim Moray, Steve Knightly, Megson, Kathryn Roberts & Sean Lakeman are just trying to have a 'hit'?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 07:07 AM

If you rip traditional music up by the roots as it has been in the clubs and as it is bow being in academic circles it will never revive
Traditional music is now being lumped in with all other forms of popular music by a small group of researchers - take your eye off the ball now and that is how it will be seen py the general public
The club scene was established largely on the basis of the folk songs that were being collected in the 1950s, that is why thousands of British clubs were established - to listen to those songs and ones being made using traditional forms.
When it became possible to leave a folk club without hearing a folk song, thousands waled away from the scene, club numbers were decimated, labels, magazines and shps dedicated to selling folk albums, instruments and books disappeared - go count them now to see how many are left
It's not as anybody has won out over the change of policy - there are no audiences for music hal, Victorian Parlour Ballads, Music Hall renditions or whatever passed for folk songs in the New Age folk clubs.

The Irish traditional music scene is throbbing aat present with thousands of youngsters pouring in to listen and play
The British scene isn't, in my opinion, because people can no longer choose what they want to listen to
If you walk away from that situation you may as well hold a Requiem Mass for British folk song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 07:26 AM

I suspect that the reason people have left folk clubs is that there are far more ways of spending an evening listening to good quality live music nowadays (and I am speaking as a folk club attendee of over 40 years!). When I started going to the Hartlepool Folk Club in the late 70's there were few other outlets for affordable live music in the town - now, although I have moved away and don't know the exact details of the local scene, there are many more. Similarly in York where I live now the folk club is only one option in a city full of live music - I attend occasionally but I also go to gigs in pubs and formal concerts - as well as running a folk / Americana concert series at a pub in the city

I think it is important that clubs and singarounds survive but I do not think that they are for everyone who enjoys folk music -clearly my definition of folk music - as I have outlined re song above - is much broader than some of those here.

The places where young people are engaging are the diverse festivals such as Shrewsbury where they can listen to an amazing range of music from trad to Americana, European etc and also play or sing in sessions.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 07:42 AM

Clubs took a nosedive in the eighties before the advent of the technology that gives us access to as much as we have now
There's just as much of that access here but youngsters would rather have their their music as a shared experience as they always have, not by retreating into their private shells
Here we have the best of both worlds - good sessions and traditional music on the media seven nights a week
Rather than festivals, the most successful events are we-end or week long schools for learning to play and understand the music - and hundreds of musicians teaching newbies to play
Song has some way to go to catch up but it's getting there
Of course, a recognation that the music is important enough to work at it to make sure it's played or sung well has helped
You seldom see anybody singing from a crib-sheet or mobile phone here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM

That all sounds great Jim - good to hear that things are going well in Ireland

I think folk is in the ascendancy again in England just perhaps in a different form from what some people on here would like. More young people getting involved in the music has helped this clearly - also in the 80's through to the 90's recorded music (eg dj sets) were more popular than live music with young people but since then live music has thrived in most genres and long may it do so

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 08:22 AM

Thanks GUEST Joe G - you have put it better than I could in the first part of your opening sentence:

I suspect that the reason people have left folk clubs is that there are far more ways of spending an evening LISTENING to good quality live music nowadays

THAT is what has been achieved by the experimentation you seem to favour. It has turned an audience who used to PARTICIPATE into an audience that by now can only LISTEN.

Well said Jim Carroll - When it became possible to leave a folk club without hearing a folk song, thousands walked away from the scene, club numbers were decimated, labels, magazines and shops dedicated to selling folk albums, instruments and books disappeared - That is exactly what I have seen unfold as well.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM

I personally believe that the only way forward is for those who know and care what folk song is to retrench and scream from the housetops how good and important it is
If you respect what you do, so will others, even if they may not necessarily like it
THat is the way air tim and acceptance will be won back
If we don't know what music we represent, how can we expect anybody else to?
One of the great changes here if to have witnessed over the last three decades the turnaround of the music outside its immediate circle of followers
The media now fills its airtime with music it once regarded as "diddley-di nonsense"
Pubs that once body-searched people to make sure they weren't carrying a traditional musical instrument have begun to realise that there is commercial gain to be had from good dedicated traditional sessions rather 'Oirish knees-ups'
Up to the time the bankers ruined our economy, it was pushing on an open door to apply for a research grant or making a CD of your work
Even the tourist industry has come to terms with the long-term draw of our music

It would be lying to claim this is happening everywhere, but it's happening enough to know that the music has been guaranteed at least a two/three generation future
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:36 AM

Jim "over the last three decades" - do you think it was beginning to happen before the'Riverdance' phenomena in the mid 90's?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:48 AM

Observer - I still sing along to the choruses! So are you saying that folk music is the exclusive preserve of people who sing or play an instrument - surely that is far more 'elitist' than music that can be enjoyed by a wide range of people. To be honest the quality of singing at some singarounds I have attended has been appalling (it has also been very good at times). I don't have a problem with that but you cannot insist that to like folk music you have to be prepared to put up with often boring songs badly sung

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:52 AM

Even worse is when an appalling singer gets up at a guest night at a folk club when people have paid to attend - that is what is likely to have driven many from folk clubs when a more consistently enjoyable night of music is available elsewhere

My partner would generally not attend our local folk club if she knew that a particular MC would be hogging the stage with his turgid singing. If she did attend she and half of the audience would disappear to the bar until he had finished. That is the kind of thing that empties folk clubs

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 10:15 AM

But Jim..

"the little group of pink and spiky haired, body-pierced fossilised Malcolm McLaren saddos who used to hang around the top of Royal Avenue on the Kings Road"

were more likely as not unimaginative knobheads, the sheeplike followers of fashion and new orthodoxies;
McLaren and Westwood, the oportunistic self promoters and conveniently accesable and quotable figureheads
for lazy hack media writers and TV producers...

The equivalent of 1960/70s beards, aran sweaters, and fisherman's caps,
and the Sunday lifestyle/arts supplements and BBC's favoured folk artists and promoters...

What you percieve as 'punk' is long dead and gone - as it should be...
and in common with folk, there are still moribund spikey haired pockets of resistance, in their late middle age and dotage;
and the occasional bunch of teenagers who discover retro punk hair and fashions for a few months dressing up...

My idea of trad folk/punk is quite austere and minimalist,
pure in essence and intent, and devoid of unneccesary ornementation and vanity...
yets still with some creative fertile life burning in it's core...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM

"I personally believe that the only way forward is for those who know and care what folk song is to retrench and scream from the housetops how good and important it is"
yes and to try and help raise standards and encourage participation, and encourage people to play or sing for the love of it, not for winning competitions or for becoming a folk "STAR". IF I WAS RUNNING A FOLK CLUB NOW MY PRIORITY WOULD BE TO GATHER AT LEAST FOUR OR FIVE STRONG SINGERS AS RESIDENTS, SO THAT GUEST BOOKING WAS NOT ALWAYS NEEDED

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:18 AM

"The equivalent of 1960/70s beards, aran sweaters, and fisherman's caps,"
That's a stereotype of the music industry's presentation of traditional folk song and it died sometime in the mid-1960s when the boom ended
The traditional clubs were not like that
The Liverpool clubs were full of dock and various types of workers, as were the Mancester clubs
Folk had its posers, as did punk and Jazz and Classical music - that has nothing to do with the various musics themselves
I've never particularly liked punk (or most forms of pop music) but I would not detract from those who do
I don't understand how narrative song of the English folk type can fit in with music based, rhythm dominated punk - probably too old in the tooth to learn now

"do you think it was beginning to happen before the'Riverdance' phenomena in the mid 90's?"
I do Jim
I think it began to happen when the Clancy School began to have an effect (that's now in its 46th year) and a foundation began to be built in 1987 when the foundations were laid with the setting up of the Irish Traditional Music Archive in Merrion Square
Whatever the youngsters coming fresh into the music decide to do with it, they will always have a foundation to return to.
The fact that the children and grandchildren of those who attended the first classes at the early Clancy Weeks are now themselves teaching speaks for itself
Jim