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BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?

Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 07:45 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 08:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM
Jack Campin 20 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 09:38 AM
Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 09:38 AM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 09:40 AM
Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 09:45 AM
G-Force 20 Jan 19 - 11:29 AM
Thompson 20 Jan 19 - 11:35 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 20 Jan 19 - 11:44 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 11:50 AM
Jos 20 Jan 19 - 12:11 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 12:32 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jan 19 - 12:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 19 - 12:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 19 - 12:52 PM
Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 12:59 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 01:43 PM
Thompson 20 Jan 19 - 01:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 19 - 01:49 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM
Jos 20 Jan 19 - 02:09 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 02:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 19 - 02:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 19 - 03:01 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM
Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 04:18 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 04:53 PM
Mo the caller 20 Jan 19 - 05:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 19 - 05:30 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 05:50 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 19 - 06:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Jan 19 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 19 - 10:01 PM
leeneia 20 Jan 19 - 10:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 19 - 11:21 PM
Thompson 21 Jan 19 - 02:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 19 - 03:34 AM
Senoufou 21 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM
BobL 21 Jan 19 - 04:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 19 - 05:16 AM
Senoufou 21 Jan 19 - 01:36 PM
leeneia 21 Jan 19 - 10:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 19 - 12:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 19 - 12:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 19 - 03:41 AM
Joe Offer 22 Jan 19 - 03:56 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM
Mr Red 24 Jan 19 - 07:00 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:54 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 19 - 01:01 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 19 - 04:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jan 19 - 07:41 AM
Jack Campin 25 Jan 19 - 08:13 AM
Senoufou 25 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 19 - 02:59 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 19 - 03:09 PM
Senoufou 25 Jan 19 - 03:21 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM
Senoufou 25 Jan 19 - 03:39 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 19 - 07:14 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 19 - 08:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jan 19 - 12:41 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 19 - 05:34 PM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 19 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 19 - 07:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jan 19 - 01:19 AM
robomatic 27 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM
Mo the caller 29 Jan 19 - 06:52 AM

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Subject: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 07:45 AM

As I asked in the First name Only thread how many of the 12 apostles can you name?
No spoilers please, but claim your totals here and maybe tell us if you are
a) an active churchgoer
b) once active now lapsed/ atheist
c) old enough to have learnt it at school

My score was 7 I was certain of, 3 + spare that were confirmed right by Wiki and 2 I should have got but didn't. I would have had to think hard to get them all, even in my active days.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM

As Jesus probably didn't exist, there probably weren't any apostles. Just blokes. But anyway I got eight. I missed two obvious ones and two that I'd never heard of, and I named one that wasn't one. Joe Offer will tell you what I believe in. He's good like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 08:58 AM

Oh I can name them all, and almost anything else you like that's in the Bible! I'm old enough to have had it drummed into me at Sunday School, school RE lessons and assemblies and weekly church services (CofE) throughout my rather long life.
I also taught RE (mandatory) to my primary school pupils.

As a bit of a feminist though, I do wish there was a lot more said about the women who were part of the retinue of Jesus. They catered for the domestic side of things and actually played quite a large role in the early Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM

Sen - As a non believer, I just happen to enjoy movies based on bible stories...

..rousing yarns that they can be... easily as good as Grimms fairy tales....

We watched the recent "Mary Magdelene" movie..

Stunningly visual evocation of the atmosphere of 2000 years ago.
Top cast and acting... but a really weak script and unengaging empty drama...

BTW.. I can start naming the magnificent 12, but go a bit off track when I get to George and Ringo....


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM

There are a few churches dedicated to St James the Less. You have to wonder if there are others dedicated to St Mildred the Forgettable and St Darren the Utterly Insignificant.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

Oooh yes pfr, I've enjoyed loads of 'bibilical' films over the years, some of which my school took us to see ('Song of Bernadette', 'The Ten Commandments') I liked 'The Passion Of The Christ', 'Ben Hur' (where Jesus apparently heals the mother and daughter of leprosy) 'The Last Temptation Of Christ' etc.

I was also chosen to take part in countless Nativity plays and biblical depictions in my infant/junior school days, and produced many similar performances when teaching.

To folk of my age I suppose it was all a part of our culture, whether one was a fervent believer or not.

It's interesting to me to see how little today's youngsters know about Christianity. Many of them don't know the Lord's Prayer, and I bet hardly any could tell one the names of anybody whatsoever in the Bible!
I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I don't like fundamentalism in any form or in any religion. Tolerance and acceptance of all creeds and none are far better codes for living in my humble opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:38 AM

Or St Simon the Slightly Smelly! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:38 AM

Steve, I think you've told us what you (don't) believe in, yourself. And I only said 'maybe tell us' - interested because I think the school teaching has changed . Which I approve of in a way - I don't think teaching of morals should be hung onto a peg of religion which pupils may not believe in or may see others giving only lip-service to.
On the other hand, even as an atheist, those stories are part of our folklore, as much as Goldilocks or Miss Muffet.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:40 AM

There's actually a real church in Blackfriars, London called 'St Andrew by the Wardrobe. What was he doing lurking there may one ask? Trying to pinch the clothes?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 09:45 AM

Senoufou. I didn't end up teaching, but did read the Approved syllabus for RE (if it was called that) back in the 60s. Very fundamentalist. I suspect many teachers would have been teaching things they didn't quite believe in.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: G-Force
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 11:29 AM

You had to love our RE teacher at school. He used to walk about with detention slips hanging out of his bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 11:35 AM

And me thinking you were talking about a lagniappe.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 11:44 AM

Dasher, Dancer.... No, wait! Sleepy, Bashful, Dopey.... Oh, shit! I keep getting my fairy tales confused!


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 11:50 AM

In my first year of teaching I got railroaded into teaching a Year 7 class RE. I got into trouble on one occasion for punishing some naughty boys by making them copy out the Eight Beatitudes three times each.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Jos
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:11 PM

"Saint Andrew by the wardrobe"? - probably trying to get into Narnia and worship Aslan.

I'm not surprised at modern children knowing little about Christianity and/or the Bible, but I was surprised when one of the recent radio serials about life 100 years ago included someone reciting the Lord's Prayer and beginning it with "Our father, hallowed be your name ...". I'm not sure when the modern version began to be used, but I think it was nearer 50 years ago rather than 100. When I was younger no-one would have dreamed of using "you/your" when addressing God, rather than "thou/thy", and I would have expected the drama producers to know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:32 PM

Hahaha! Indeed Jos. I never thought of Narnia!

We were always taught 'Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name...' in the late forties (just after the War)
The Bible too was always the King James version, and the Book of Common Prayer 1662 version.

Have to say, the modern versions do jar a bit on my old ears. I miss the beautiful language I knew. It's rather as if Shakespeare were to be rendered in Estuary English. 'The lady doth protest too much methinks' might come out as 'Tell 'er ter quit whingeing. Any twit can see she's guilty as hell!'

I reckon schoolchildren should be shown all the major religions so that they aren't ignorant about others' beliefs. But no-one has the right to ram a particular belief down their throats.

I'm always suspicious of fiercely fundamentalist, strictly correct people who condemn and judge, discriminate and reject. They exist in every type of religion, and I've no time for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:51 PM

There is currently a bumper sticker that says "Pray for Trump. Psalm 109:8".


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:51 PM

Sen - not just religion... you just nicely summed up zealous brexiteers...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:52 PM

Lapsed Christian here. I could only name 4. I think having stuff like that drummed into me as a kid has created a mental block!


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 12:59 PM

But were they right, Dave? Or did you include all 4 gospel-makers (and 3 rivals).
Sen - only go to church now-adays for funerals and have trouble with the updated words of the hymns.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 01:43 PM

You're right Mo.
In Hark the Herald Angels Sing, 'Pleased as Man with men to dwell' has become 'pleased as flesh with us to dwell'.
And 'offspring of a virgin's womb' has been changed to 'offspring of the chosen one'.
I'm afraid I stubbornly bellow out the original version and stare straight ahead with a face like fizz.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 01:44 PM

In my youth, Catholics said "Our Father, a wart in Heaven" and Protestants (people of the book) said "Our father, a chart in Heaven".

The apostles… hmm… well, Peter, that's easy; James and John, Jesus' brothers; Judas of course… that's about it for me, though if one of them were named I'd know he'd been one of the gang. Was Judas Thaddeus also an apostle, as well as the group's accountant, Judas Iscariot?

Oh, and Matthew, wasn't he an apostle too, the only one of the New Testament scribes who knew Jesus…


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 01:49 PM

Interestingly... I find I can no longer recall the names of The Mgnificent 7..

But have no problems at all with instantly reeling of Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM

Or perhaps Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grubb?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Jos
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 02:09 PM

And what about Uncle Tom Cobbley's companions? I remembered them fairly easily, but I never did know the names of the Magnificent Seven.

Thompson's "a wart in Heaven" reminds me of something I always find annoying - people pronouncing Saint John's wort as if it is "Saint John's wart". I always imagine Saint John with a big wart on his nose.
For the pronunciation of "wort", think of worm, and worth, and word, and work, an worse ...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 02:19 PM

Oh yes Jos! Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer etc. I always reel them off in a (probably terrible) faux-Devon accent.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 02:56 PM

Yes, the four I got were right :-) I got the one that doubted, the one that denied, the one that dobbed JC in and the one that had a domestic moment.

The Mrs said the gospel makers and I knew that wasn't right.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 03:01 PM

The pun should have been domestos rather than domestic moment. Spill checkout strokes again!


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM

Tom Cobley was a real man. His grave is a half-hour drive from my house, in the churchyard in the little village of Spreyton, near Okehampton in Devon. That particular Thomas Cobley died in 1844, though there's controversy in that the grave may be that of the real Tom Cobley's nephew, not Uncle Tom himself, who died in 1794 (allegedly buried in an unmarked grave) and who severely disproved of his nephew. There's an excellent pub in the village, renowned for its real ales and good food (I've been often and can vouch for both!), though the landlord, a very fine man of the old guard, is always in severe danger of talking the back legs off you. The pub's called, you might have guessed it, the Tom Cobley Tavern. If you go in spring on a sunshiny day the churchyard is an absolute delight, with a long avenue of tall trees, yet to burst into leaf, the grass underneath bedecked with primroses and celandines.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 04:18 PM

Since we've done so well (!) on the NT 12 how about the OT. 12 tribes.
I used to know them, now can only think of 3 or 4.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 04:53 PM

Disapproved! Not "disproved." Dammit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:05 PM

Dave, thanks for the pm explaining, but the Domestos one was neither one or the original 12 nor the replacement (so perhaps that makes 14)


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:30 PM

So was jesus putting together a football or rugby team before things took a turn for the worse...???


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 05:50 PM

Jesus plays for Man City. Gabriel Jesus. Do try to keep up. Tsk.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 06:00 PM

I can't work out the Domestos pun Dave, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 06:22 PM

Apostle Spoons
Pete Postlethwaite
Post Haste
A Postillion Struck by Lightning
Post Chaise
Post Natal
Apostrophe S
er... that's it...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 10:01 PM

Jesus is also the name of the lovely but rather morose man who runs one of the two village bars in Alhabia in Almería province in Andalucía. I highly recommend his tapas, particularly the deep-fried peppers in batter. Very filling. He also does deep-fried prawns in batter, a thing of beauty as long as Jesus has remembered to take them out of his freezer for an hour first. I once spent a very nervous 48 hours wondering what vile ague was to befall me after biting through the lovely, crispy batter...into a rock-hard, still-blue frozen prawn. I made it, and I still eat his deep-fried prawns!


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 10:34 PM

I think you mean disciples. I can think of 8, but if Mary Magdalene counts, that's nine. I'm a churchgoer.

Ah, the doubter. That makes 10. Are you sure they are all named in the New Testament?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 19 - 11:21 PM

In any gang of mates there's always a Dave...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 02:33 AM

Peter Green and his Fleetwood Mac?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 03:34 AM

Looked at a Wiki article, Mo, and it does say the domestos one was not one of the original 12 but "described himself as an apostle, one "born out of due time" (e.g., Romans 1:1, 1 Corinthians 15:8 and other letters) ".

Sen, PM sent.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

Ha Dave, thank you! :)


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM

Steve Shaw probably believes more than I do. Belief-based religion gets us in trouble. What good does it do to believe in lists of stuff?

But Simon Peter, James, James the lesser, John, Andrew, Bartholomew, Philip, Judas Iscariot, Simon the Zealot, Matthew, Nathaniel, Jude Thaddeus.

Matthias was the spare.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: BobL
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 04:28 AM

Are you sure they are all named in the New Testament?

Well, they wouldn't be named elsewhere. They are listed in two of the Gospels - can't be bothered to find them at this precise moment - but some of the names in the two lists don't match.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

ok... now name all the actors who played them...

.. there surely be at least one Dave amongst all 'em...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 05:16 AM

I neither believe nor not believe any of it, Joe. Now if you can come up with anything better than Josephus or Tacitus...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 01:36 PM

A propos of nothing (but you know what I'm like) I had two boys in the same class once, each named after a chap in the NT.

Paul Small and
Mark Clark

The children were a bit cruel and called one Luke Puke! (The other one was a bit of a bruiser and would have given any teaser a clump, so they didn't dare taunt him)


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Jan 19 - 10:49 PM

Joe, I think you are pulling my leg.

Biblehub.net says
Bible Search

Your search - Jude Thaddeus - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "Jude Thaddeus".

also, where do James and John, the sons of Zebedee fit in? The millenials [sp] at church tell me this means Sons of Thunder.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:34 AM

Zebedee...
Florence...
Dougal...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:35 AM

oh.. wrong thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:41 AM

What about Winken, Blinken and Nod?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:56 AM

Leeneia, o ye of little faith, I think I got all 12, and I typed my list from memory. Once again, Wikipedia confirms my infallibility. Pope, shnope - it's Joe Offer that's infallible. The churchy people wanted to make sure the "other" Judas wasn't mixed up with Iscariot, so they called him Jude Thaddeus, the Patron Saint of Hopeless Cases who earned Danny Thomas and his favorite charity a lot of money.
If you spend 8 years in a seminary, you have to know these things....

Steve Shaw, since I stray far from biblical fundamentalism, I don't particularly care whether the Old and New Testaments and the Church Fathers are historically true. These writings have been held sacred for millennia, and they have inspired a lot of good people (and a lot of not-so-good people). But all in all, they're a good story, a story that a people view as their foundation. And since I'm one of those people, the story is sacred and important to me. Since I'm not a fundamentalist, whether or not it's historically true, is basically irrelevant to me.

But nonetheless, I got the list right.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM

James Rebanks, shepherd and writer, said on Desert Island Discs this week that he wouldn't want either the Bible or the complete works of Shakespeare, the two books that every guest is automatically allowed. That's quite rare is that. It definitely puts him out of kilter with Joe but onside with Dick. Still, when you've forgotten to make a supply of bog paper your luxury item...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:00 PM

As Jesus probably didn't exist, there probably weren't any apostles.

I was once told that there is enough documentary evidence of a personage in Palestine who made waves in the status quo. It is the significance you put on it, and the nits you pick to aver you cherished beliefs, when it gets a bit nebulous, or for some, cast iron certainty. Was it ever thus?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:54 PM

The evidence is pretty scanty, Mr R. Yes there are those who cling to the tangential references by Josephus and Tacitus, but they can't explain why, in all the massive, voluminous Roman contemporary writings, there are next to no references to this chap in the Holy Land who was claimed to be such a trouble to the Romans. Funny, that!   

You know me. I don't need to disbelieve stuff. All I want is evidence, otherwise I shrug. .


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 01:01 AM

OK, Steve, but what if faith isn't about proving oneself right? I think that too many people waste too much time trying to prove themselves rights about things that don't matter anyhow. What if faith, is about living a well-lived life, based on shared values and myths and traditions?

I just finished reading a fascinating novel Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson. It's a Congregationalist pastor's examination of his own life, written in the form of a letter to his son. The letter is full of self-doubt and self-questioning. I think that self-doubt and self-questioning are the fate of all honest people with healthy psyches.

An interesting quote from page 177: Nothing true can be said about God from a posture of defense.

I think there's a lot of truth in that - faith is something to be lived, not argued about.                        

It really doesn't matter who's right or wrong...but I'm still proud I could name the 12 apostles without looking them up.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM

What about the twelve cranial nerves? There's a mnemonic to remind you what they are but I'm blowed if I can remember it. I think it starts with three letter Os...

I mean, what's the point of a mnemonic if you can't remember what it is, I muse to myself...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:40 AM

Damn, I hope I haven't just invited a plethora of rude ones....


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:41 AM

"What if faith, is about living a well-lived life, based on shared values and myths and traditions?"

Well that'll be humanism & moral maturity then...

so all the gods and religion stuff is completely superfluous...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:13 AM

Islamic tradition is often a source for Biblical stories the Jews and Christians left out. Did they list any extras? Senoufou, I guess you'd know?


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM

Husband says no extras, but they don't refer to Eve by name. Adam was given 'a woman' by God.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:59 PM

Joe sez: "What if faith, is about living a well-lived life, based on shared values and myths and traditions?"

PFR sez: Well that'll be humanism & moral maturity then...

so all the gods and religion stuff is completely superfluous...


But not superfluous for people who value the "gods and religion stuff."

Why the need to refute something that some people find meaningful, PFR? That gets into Steve's cycle of some people being right and some people being wrong - and being driven by a cycle of feeling obliged to prove the others wrong. I see far more value in valuing diversity of perspectives. I come from a Catholic/Judaeo-Christian tradition, so that's the one that feels authentic to me; but I value being able to explore the questions of the universe from the perspective of a variety of traditions. And I find all of them, including non-religious perspectives, to have value.

Egyptian mythology, for example, is fascinating and colorful, and provides some very valuable insights. Why dismiss it as "superfluous"? "One size fits all," just isn't my size.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:09 PM

"I value being able to explore the questions of the universe from the perspective of a variety of traditions."

Does your exploration allow for you to accept that there is no driving force behind evolution? That's the trouble with exploring things from the perspective of traditions. Those traditions can take you along the wrong paths. And yes, I'm right: there IS no driving force behind evolution. Plenty of things that I'm wrong about but evolution having no driver and Liverpool being the greatest team on earth cannot be argued with.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:21 PM

I rather like what the Queen said at the West Runton WI in Norfolk yesterday, about people respecting others' point of view and making an effort to explore the common ground.

She was probably covertly referring to the Brexit debates, but it's a good way to approach other people's religious tenets too.

I'm curious and interested in all religions and beliefs, despite being broadly Christian. What I detest, I'm afraid, is rampant fundamentalism.

I've moaned on here before about this ghastly fundamentalist Muslim couple who zoom up to me in Tesco if they spot us, and exhort me to accept Allah, and say I'm not truly my husband's wife as we weren't married in a mosque blah blah blah.

I stay calm, smile weakly and change the subject, then whizz off to the crumpet aisle. But it does make my blood boil.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM

The problem is that there are some points of view that should not be respected. Hitler's point of view was that the Jews were a menace and had to be eradicated. I'd rather cut my own throat than respect Nigel Farage's point of view about immigrants and I will not respect Trump's point of view about Mexicans. There are some points of view that should be severely challenged, not respected, and there some which should be rejected outright. Our problem isn't that we should respect all points of view. Our problem is deciding which ones should be kicked out the door.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:39 PM

My sister would agree with you wholeheartedly Steve. She tells me to challenge the Muslim couple and point out how blooming cheeky they are.

And you're right that not all viewpoints are equally valid, some being downright evil and toxic.

But regarding religions, as long as nobody is being domineering, trying to convert others or doing bad things, I can tolerate quite a bit of guff!


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:14 PM

Steve Shaw sez: Does your exploration allow for you to accept that there is no driving force behind evolution?

Of course. That is my basic view. Evolution is just the logical way that things work, same for all the laws of science and nature - they are logical consequences of logical causes, not subject to any external spiritual force.

Where does God fit into that? That's what I ponder. But no, I have no concept of God as an external cause of anything. My tendency is to think of God as an internal essence.

Proof? I don't need no steenkin' proof. I can ponder whatever I want to. This is my faith journey, and I have no need to prove or defend it. And you should have no need to attack or refute it.

In general, I see no benefit from argument. I like to discuss and consider things, but I don't like to argue and avoid it as much as I can. To my mind, argument generates animosity, and I don't need that.

Back to PFR and the contention that religion is superfluous. Perhaps it IS superfluous - but if it is, then so is art and music and poetry....and beauty. I tend to think it is the superfluous things, that make life worth living.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM

I never say anything about proof, ever, Joe, and you know it. "Proof" has a finality about it that true scientists don't seek. The true philosophy of science is that we are involved in a never-ending, delicious quest to get nearer to the truth. But every step along that path requires evidence. Religious belief is always irrational because it is never predicated on evidence. But that's fine. We are not Mr Spocks, any of us, and an innate quality of the human condition is the capacity for irrationality. Which is why I support Liverpool FC and why I love Kylie. Arguably, that's a lot less harmful than religious belief has ever shown itself to be. That doesn't have to be the case, of course. If only people of faith would keep it strictly to themselves...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:06 PM

Actually, Steve, it's the born-again Christians who annoy me no end by claiming they can "prove" their beliefs. For me, faith is a way of exploring the mysteries of life and trying to find meaning and value in them. I find it worth my while. It's an exploration of the questions, and doesn't supply answers.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:41 AM

Joe - the arts certainly are not superfuous, it is a basic function of our humanity.. our imagination..
Our urge to create, to ponder, to amuse, to entertain, to titilate, to thrill, to question...

To attempt to understand and explain the mysteries of reality and existence...
and have fun, even try to transcend the mundanity of the daily grind,
whilst making up stories, songs and pictures to share with each other...

That's how we can make something from nothing with our own minds and hands and will...

Anything from the dumbest common denominator tripe TV shows, to the most profound art, music, and writings..

Creative collective culure birthed from the human mind...

That's the artistic process how folks many thousands of years ago arrived at the big bumper fun books of religions
and carved stone and wood idols representing the lead characters within those books...

Similarly, now in the modern world we have the new cults of Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr Who, Marvel & DC, etc..
and all the spin off books and collectable plastic toy figurines...

Of course folks are also far more educated now than they were thousands of years ago,
and most accept that Luke Skywalker, Spock, and Superman are very vivid figments of the imagination, but not 'real'...


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

Genuine exploration of questions requires the seeking of evidence. Any other approach is, well, just fannying around with fanciful notions. But whatever lights yer fire, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 05:34 PM

PFR sez: Joe - the arts certainly are not superfuous, it is a basic function of our humanity.. our imagination..

Our urge to create, to ponder, to amuse, to entertain, to titilate, to thrill, to
question...


Exactly, and very well said. I would propose that serious religious thought (as opposed to packaged ideology) should fall into the same realm. We in the Western world seem to have a certain self-loathing for our own religious traditions, and that makes it hard for us to understand what their roots are. And so we have people seeking enlightenment in religious traditions that are not their own, that are not authentic to them. That works for some people, but I question the lack of authenticity.

But if we look back at a religious tradition that is no longer in practice, we may be able to get a perception of the root purpose of such traditions. Ever since I visited the Upper Nile in Egypt with a very good guide in 2012, I have been fascinated by the very imaginative practices of Egyptian mythology, which spawned amazing art and architecture - and, no doubt, literature and music and other accomplishments. I think that if we can drop the self-loathing, we can see that our own Judeo-Christian traditions have given us many of the same gifts.

Steve doesn't like the word "proof." It's "evidence" that he seeks, although I don't know that I can really see much difference - the evidence supports logical conclusions which most people would consider to be "proof," no?

Anyhow, I think that religious traditions have left behind a lot of evidence of their value, and I've spend my life enjoying my exploration of that evidence.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 05:37 PM

Back to the original question - the stories of the Twelve Apostles and their fates are mostly legend, but they're often terrific stories. I can't tell you how often St. James has risen from his entombment in Santiago to win a battle here and there for Spain. Silly, I suppose, but there are some great stories there.



-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 07:52 PM

Sure. Religious tradition has "given us" amazing art. And the art and architecture spawned by Islam, arguably far greater than that spawned by the Judaeo-Christian tradition. I'm a rabid atheist but that art is as much mine as it is yours. And there's an awful lot of art spawned by no religion at all. Actually, I could point to near-pornography spawned by Christianity. I went to the Santa Croce basilica in Lecce in Puglia. The place is replete with sculptured putti, naked full-frontal pre-pubescent boy-child angels by the hundred. Wow. Well what to think! The greatest art I've ever seen, the ceilling of the Sistine Chapel, was created by Michelangelo under severe duress. Art always, always, always, comes from the human soul, never from religion or from paganism or from atheism. You can pay an artist but you can't buy an artist. Your tradition hasn't given us those gifts. Art is the urgent need for humanity to communicate with humanity and you don't get to usurp it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 01:19 AM

On that note...

tonight I finally got round to watching one of modern mainstream cinema's
most astute explorations of religious delusion and tolerance...

Sausage Party (2016)

"Unbeknownst to humans, a supermarket called Shopwell's is filled with anthropomorphic grocery items
that believe that the human shoppers are gods, who take groceries they have purchased to a utopia known as the Great Beyond.
Among the groceries in the store is a sausage named Frank, who dreams of living in the Great Beyond
with his hot dog bun girlfriend Brenda and of finally consummating their relationship...

"Despite all the cursing and envelope-pushing and bat-bleep crazy sexual stuff,
Sausage Party isn't mean-spirited. It's just … stupid.
But also pretty smart. And funny as hell."...
"


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM

preachy
peachy
pleady
scruffy
twitchy
specious
happy
drippy
flippy
hortense
frank and
earnest


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Subject: RE: BS: 12 and a spare, how many can you name?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:52 AM

Steve mentioned putti.
There is an amazing fragment of old Flemish glass in a window in Acton church near Nantwich Cheshire.
Peering at it you can see a woman (Mary?) and an angel. Is it the annunciation? Why is there a dragon's neck? Oh, it's not a dragon. So that's how it happened! "Well Joseph, there was this angel...."

Joe would like the born again Christians to keep their beliefs to themselves. But if what they believe is true, it would be like letting a blind man walk under a bus without warning him. So I understand, though I no longer share their beliefs.


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