Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88]


BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 06 Jun 19 - 12:53 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 19 - 11:33 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 19 - 10:50 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 19 - 10:48 AM
David Carter (UK) 06 Jun 19 - 10:08 AM
DMcG 06 Jun 19 - 09:23 AM
DMcG 06 Jun 19 - 09:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 19 - 09:01 AM
Raggytash 06 Jun 19 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 06 Jun 19 - 06:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 19 - 05:29 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 19 - 04:41 AM
Iains 06 Jun 19 - 03:22 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 19 - 02:29 AM
DMcG 06 Jun 19 - 02:09 AM
Raggytash 05 Jun 19 - 02:29 PM
Iains 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 PM
Backwoodsman 05 Jun 19 - 07:25 AM
Raggytash 05 Jun 19 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jun 19 - 12:29 PM
DMcG 04 Jun 19 - 10:59 AM
DMcG 04 Jun 19 - 10:55 AM
DMcG 04 Jun 19 - 10:53 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Jun 19 - 07:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jun 19 - 03:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 19 - 05:57 PM
David Carter (UK) 03 Jun 19 - 03:35 PM
Raggytash 03 Jun 19 - 03:34 PM
Iains 03 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM
gillymor 03 Jun 19 - 02:39 PM
Mossback 03 Jun 19 - 02:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 02:32 PM
bobad 03 Jun 19 - 02:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 19 - 01:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 19 - 01:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 12:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 12:35 PM
DMcG 03 Jun 19 - 12:30 PM
Iains 03 Jun 19 - 12:16 PM
Raggytash 03 Jun 19 - 11:54 AM
Iains 03 Jun 19 - 10:27 AM
Raggytash 03 Jun 19 - 10:22 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 19 - 10:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 09:43 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 19 - 08:13 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 07:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 19 - 05:20 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 12:53 PM

The whole paper is negotiating objectives, Nigel. We know that means that these are what will be sought but it accepts they may not all be achieved.

All the commentary I have read on this says it is very much an 'America First' stance. Which is exactly what you would expect: of course the US is putting together the objectives it thinks are in its interests - why would it not, in any circumstances, never mind under an 'America First' administration. So there are lots of phrases that must be read at a deeper level than just the obvious meaning:

Eliminate practices that unfairly decrease U.S. market access opportunities or distort agricultural markets to the detriment of the United States, including:
? Non-tariff barriers that discriminate against U.S. agricultural goods; and
? Restrictive rules in the administration of tariff rate quotas.


Those are things like making the UK accept GM foods, whether it wishes to or not, and no labelling that lets the consumer know. This is stressed elsewhere

Establish new and enforceable rules to eliminate unjustified trade restrictions or unjustified commercial requirements (including unjustified labeling) that affect new technologies.



It is obvious that in principle we can decide not to accept these terms, but once again, the question boils down to are you prepared to "no deal" to maintain your position? So far, the impression I get, Nigel, is that in principle you are prepared to trade anything if the price is right,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 11:33 AM

I read the section on pharmaceuticals, and on SOEs (State owned enterprises).
I also read the introduction, which seems to be in line with my comments above:
On October 16, 2018, the Trump Administration notified Congress that the President intends to negotiate a trade agreement with the United Kingdom (UK) once it leaves the European Union (EU), in accordance with section 105(a)(l)(A) of the Bipartisan Congressional Trade Priorities and Accountability Act of 2015 (the Trade Priorities and Accountability Act). Our specific objectives for this negotiation will comply with the specific objectives set forth by Congress in section 102 of the Trade Priorities and Accountability Act.
I realise that American English may differ from British English, but to me the section I've put in bold deals with 'objectives' (a 'wish list') this does not mean that failure to reach one or more 'objective' will mean no deal, just not one which meet all of the objectives.
The paperwork is even headed "Summary of specific negotiating objectives" (same implied meaning). It's just a shame our government didn't think to issue something similar before starting to negotiate with Brussels.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:50 AM

”In fact I fail to see why we need them at all, what do they produce which we need?”

WMDs and their delivery & control systems?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:48 AM

”Read the section on pharmaceuticals, for example.”

I’m sure the section on ‘State-Owned and Controlled Enterprises’ didn’t escape your attention either, DMcG.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:08 AM

"No matter what you offer us we will never allow you access to any aspects of the NHS under any circumstances."

That is not at all a ridiculous position. It should be our only position. If they don't like it they can do one. Unlike with the EU, in this case they really do need us more than we need them. In fact I fail to see why we need them at all, what do they produce which we need?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:23 AM

US negotiating objectives

Read the section on pharmaceuticals, for example.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:17 AM

We know what they are asking for Nigel. They have published a negotiating document. So that side of the equation is well known.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:01 AM

I agree with all of that Nigel but it does not address the key question. If the US insist they do get access the aspects of the NHS or they no deal, do we say ok or do we no deal?
That would have to depend on what aspects of the NHS they were asking for access to, and what we would be getting in return. As a general question, with no specifics, it makes little or no sense.
We need (once Brexit is achieved) an opening stance for any negotiations.
Two positions which would be equally ridiculous are:
We will give you full access to all aspects of NHS even if we get nothing in return.
and:
No matter what you offer us we will never allow you access to any aspects of the NHS under any circumstances.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 07:56 AM

Hmmm Peterborough By-Election .........

Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Welfare
Mr Greene: Er .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Housing
Mr Greene: Er .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on the NHS
Me Greene: Er .. yet to be formulated .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Green what is your policy on Education
Mr Greene: Er .. we have got one yet
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Defence
Mr Greene: Er ... what... er I haven't got one I'm fairly new to this game

I could go on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 06:52 AM

I agree with all of that Nigel but it does not address the key question. If the US insist they do get access the aspects of the NHS or they no deal, do we say ok or do we no deal?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 05:29 AM

I'm only quoting the full post to make clear what I'm replying to:
It's been quite a long time now, and no comments on the idea that the NHS should be part of a trade deal with the NHS (and yes, I know Trump said two completely different things an hour apart. SO he could switch back to his original statement equally easily.)
Of course, the NHS is not a single thing: it would be possible to have say the mechanisms of NHS drug purchasing - which the US hate - part of the deal but not something else.
So imagine the US decides to play hard-ball. Their stance is (some aspects of the) NHS is part of the deal, or there is no deal at all.
Forget what any of the politicians say. What do our resident Brexiteers say?


The fact that some aspect of the NHS is on the table as part of the deal does not mean that anything involving the NHS will be part of a final deal.

On the table seems to be a widely misunderstood idea.

Brexit negotiations need to keep "No Deal" on the table. It doesn't mean it will be part of the final decision, but if it is not kept on the table, then it is not available as a fall back position if all we are offered is a poor deal.
Similarly, keeping NHS on the table does not mean that we are surrendering the option not to make it part of any deal.

So having the NHS on the table is not the same as saying it will be part of any trade deal. It is just keeping all options open during the opening of any negotiations.

Hopefully any negotiations would not be handled by someone with the lack of business acumen of Theresa May, who seemed to think that you open negotiations by making all possible concessions, and then expect to still have something to negotiate with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 04:41 AM

Voters might do better to listen to these people. than let themselves be misled by the multi-millionaire man-frog and his sycophantic followers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 03:22 AM

Popcorn ? What a good idea !
To have while awaiting the results of the Peterborough By-election where the Brexit party is expected to give their opposition a fine drubbing. Truly a popcorn moment !

I cannot wait.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:29 AM

Popcorn anyone...??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:09 AM

It's been quite a long time now, and no comments on the idea that the NHS should be part of a trade deal with the NHS (and yes, I know Trump said two completely different things an hour apart. SO he could switch back to his original statement equally easily.)

Of course, the NHS is not a single thing: it would be possible to have say the mechanisms of NHS drug purchasing - which the US hate - part of the deal but not something else.

So imagine the US decides to play hard-ball. Their stance is (some aspects of the) NHS is part of the deal, or there is no deal at all.

Forget what any of the politicians say. What do our resident Brexiteers say?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:29 PM

Basically Iains cannot, with any honestly, defend his "champions".

Farage, Johnson, Yaxley-Lennon Dyson, Banks et al.

At least Iains has the wit not to pursue their cause further.









Or does he!?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 PM

No point in making any comment. Anything contrary to the lefty narrative is promptly deleted.

Feel free to continue with your delusions, you only fool yourselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 07:25 AM

Makes Labour MP, Fiona Onasanya’s offence of fibbing over a speeding ticket, that our Resident Right-Wing Extremist Blabber-Gob kept trying to turn into some kind of major international organised crime, pale into utter insignificance, dunnit?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 07:08 AM

Oh dear. oh dear.

Reported that Farage has been called to the European Parliament "to explain in person his failure to declare lavish expenses funded by Arron Banks, an insurance tycoon under investigation by the UK’s National Crime Agency."

These expenses may include " £13,000-a-month Chelsea home in the year of the Brexit referendum, visits to the US and a chauffeur-driven car."

Something else that slipped under my radar was a that "Farage, an MEP for two decades, was docked half his salary last year after being found to have misspent EU funds intended to staff his office."

Well fancy that Farage guilty of misspending EU funds.

Link


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 12:29 PM

I worked it out but I'm sure Nigel will be along shortly ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:59 AM

Even by my standards, there was a lot of eccentric typing errors in that previous-but-one post. I hope people can glean what I meant without my needing to post a corrected version, but let me know if you want me to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:55 AM

Other potential PMs, of course, not MPs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:53 AM

Now both the ambassador and Mr Trump have suggested the NHS is to be considered as part if the trade deal. Matt Hancock has said no, and we await the view from most other potential MPs.

I don't support anyone here in favour of a trade deal wants to declare a red line: "no trade deal if it includes the NHS in any way"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 07:20 AM

Brexit a complete clusterfuck? “Look over there - Jeremy Corbyn {{insert chosen Righty-invention here}}.

The standard diversion-tactic of the Righty nut-jobs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 03:01 AM

And all this is to do with the EU because..?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 05:57 PM

Mine too, when I was having records released in Germany. He was very proud. And my Dad fought through Caen, Vieux Bocage, the Low Countries, the ctossing of the Rhine in a Sherman tank. Quite a lot of his comrades didn't come home to their families.

But he thought the EEC was bollocks and he was right. So I say what I say with quite as much authority as you do.

Gadaffi had been giving succour to the terrorists which plagued and attacked our society for years. Not almost certainly. Definitely.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:35 PM

Don't you dare bring up the war Big Al, my father was fighting in the jungles of Burma long after the D Day lot were home with their families. And he would be thoroughly ashamed of what the country is turning into now. Its not what he fought for. Whilst he was still alive, I was traveling to and working with colleagues from both Germany and Japan. And he thought that was great.

Interesting that you should mention bombing Libya after Lockerbie, when it almost certainly wasn't the Libyans who did it. The USA stuffed us there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:34 PM

Yeah a real patriot is your man Dyson.

Took European money to move his operations to Malaysia. You can bet he won't be paying UK tax on future profits from that.

That in my book is akin to the 'treachery' that you are so fond of accusing remainers and even members of the government of.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM

Dave the gnome obviously cannot differentiate between dyson the man and his tax payments and Dyson the company and its liability (£1.5 billion over the last 5 years.
It is also necessary to bear in mind corporate entities are subject to regular audit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:39 PM

If Trump has his way you can kiss goodbye to NATO as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:36 PM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week.

SOD THAT !!! We have more than a sufficiency of utter fuckwits here already, thank you very much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:32 PM

Maybe. Maybe it was a lot of factors. But they all work towards keeping the peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:26 PM

That has more to do with NATO than the EU.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.

They have managed it for nearly 75 years. Longest period of peace Europe has ever known.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:59 PM

Iains mate ...that point about tax....you're making us look stupid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:54 PM

People setting off to fight on D day, reportedly said we expect jobs when we get back. THe EEC, the international capitalism (with rich folk investing everywhere but Britain) and big bang economics that came in its wake have done for British industry and the jobs.

The Welfare State was what the war heroes voted for when they returned.

I'm sorry you don't see the significance. Europe has gone missing whenever we have been threatened or needed their cooperation ever since.

Whether its been sympathy for the IRA in the Euro Courts, or denying airspace for bombing Gadaffi after the Lockerbie bomb, supplying Galtieri - and a dozen other examples - they always go missing or worse.

If it had been us that needed help this side of the English Channel - the 2nd WW wouldn't have happened. If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:38 PM

...and, yes, it is you that wants to leave Europe. Not me. If you really want to do so, feel free. But don't take me with you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:35 PM

Dyson I presume? The company who's profits topped £1 billion last year? By anyone's reckoning £100 million is 10% of £1 billion using the US definition of 1 billion being 1000 million. Why have they paid so little when even the basic rate of tax to us mere mortals is 20%?

Al, wtf has our parents fighting in the war got to do with anything? If you hadn't noticed, there has been peace in Europe for nearly 75 years now. While the EU is not directly responsible for that, it plays a huge role. What is this EU charity we have been paying our hard earned wages to? You are talking nonsense now. Which brings us to middle class kids ruining the economy. You have lost me there. Just who are they?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:30 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax

And have rather more left after tax than most. No, this is not "envy", it just presenting both sides of the picture as you recommend elsewhere.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:16 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax, with famous names including David and Victoria Beckham in the top 50 taxpayers. Sir James Dyson, Mike Ashley and the Beckham family were among those who paid the most tax in the UK last year.Jan 27, 2019
Sir James Dyson is third on the list with £127.8m.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 11:54 AM

Any evidence for that statement .............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:27 AM

Yet he still pays over £100,000,000 in tax this last year to the UK. What miserable amount can you generate?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:22 AM

Oh dear, oh dear.

One of the heroes of Iains took an EU loan and moved his operation to Malaysia.

Well who'd have guessed it.!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:14 AM

All very well - piss off, you effectively say.

It was our parents who fought for this country. Our excessive tax burden on very low wages that kept the country going through the years when it was dispensing charity with both hands to the EU.

You've paid for the meal, give us the money for the night club - now you can bugger off.

You can see, its middle class kids powering this drive towards sodding up the economy permanently. You've heard this attitude to their parents for years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 09:43 AM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week. They can avoid all those harmful EU laws, not be limited to the hours they work or take any holidays and pay for their own health and social care. The rest of us can stay in Europe where we belong and benefit from a reduction in the number of right wing little Englanders as well as better employment laws, more social care and higher food standards. The roads should be quieter with 17 million less people too:-) win-win!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:13 AM

Sorry, that should have been, “The wish to remain in the EU, in my personal case, has very little to do with ‘class’....”


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM

”The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense.”


Amen, Dave, Amen.

Your story very closely mirrors my own - except that my dad was the British-born son of the British-born son of a South African immigrant and was a fitter in an engineering works, and my mother was the daughter of a dock-worker - and Al’s thinly-veiled suggestion that I’m ‘Middle-Class’, and living in an ‘affluent area’ is ill-informed and, quite frankly, laughable.

The wish to Remain in the EU has very little to do with ‘class’, and everything to do with having a brain and using it to sort out the lies and bullshit from facts and truth, and not seeking a scapegoat for one’s dissatisfaction with one’s lot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 07:48 AM

The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense. You could at least have the grace to admit that you just don't want "the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston" (your words) that you have complained about before.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM

The point is that education and relocation isn't the answer for everybody.
Take an extreme case: Django Rheinhardt. The guy was a a musical genius. But given the attitudes he grew up with ( his wife piggy backed him to gigs so that he didn't get his feet muddy) there was no course the Open University or other any gang of middle class toffs could devise that he could engage with.

A lot of us run out of road with education. Its not the answer for a lot of people. It doesn't mean we're stupid, or unworthy of a vote, or the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Its just not for us.

This was the basis of the 1940's government's contract with the British people. We fought for them keeping their king's share of the nation's wealth - but from now on they would take care of us. Provide employment, health care, a decent place to live.

Like Iains said. The Heath government basically said, fuck that! we're in the EEC. A lot of us didn't agree with that. The reasons have become obvious to everybody, apart from those who fancy themselves as somehow evolved ahead of the 1940's socialism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 05:20 AM

Going to work anywhere in Europe is a splendid idea, Al. One that will be made far more difficult if you and the rest of the brexiteers get your way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 8 December 1:30 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.