UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM

the man's crackers

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

It comes to something when an outsider revivalist corrects a member of the Copper Family about their attitude towarda folk/traditional somgs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

Bit spiteful Al - I thought you were above that
Byee - off to find someone else top talk to
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

How is it ever going to disappear?

Its there in the museums, on the internet, on cd, in archives, in folk clubs, university courses, dull as fuck programmes on BBC4 . and BBC Alba, digital radio stations, folk festivals, summer schools......

Like jazz. Its context will change. i don't suppose theres too many Jelly Roll Mortons playing piano in sporting houses. But thats how it is.

Remember Jurassic Park...Life will find a way!

Perhaps someone will extract the DNA of folksingers and in a million years, they will give us our own theme park and we will rise up and eat people!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

the way A
Most certainly have an agenda - to hel sort of the wheat from the crap and help prevent folk music from disappearing down the plughole of indifference and antipathy
I argue because I care what happens to olk music
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

"You've got an agenda, Jim"
No al - I've got a definition - where's yours
This gets more nonsensical as it progresses

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

I suppose Lola tells a story of a time and place and a cultural milieu
It tells a remarkable story of how gay love became the love that dared speak its name in a country where it had once been punishable by death.
Pretty much as little Armstrong or one of those related songs, where the lord of the manor could do what he wants.

And yes. young people do enjoy finding songs and music the radio has stopped playing on their stations. Its like that business of hackneyed folksongs. Since they don't do programmes like Singing Together - young people (many of them) don't know the staples of English and American folksong.

You've got an agenda, Jim. Fair enough. So have the people running folk clubs. Why argue. We're all on the side of the angels.

Nobody's running a club for serial murderers. I don't think.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:31 AM

Sortry - forgot to add "for crying out loud"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:17 AM

Maybe the tedious repetition was used for hauling up the mainsheet
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 AM

"Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks'"
Fine - but personal taste has nothing do do with discussion other than to underline the craziness of the 'anything goes policy now adopted by many here
I didn't introduce them to this discussion
Neither did I ever describe Dirty old Town aS A FOLK SONG - Ewas was first in the queue to insit it wasn't
"as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. "

My point exactly - from day one, but all the clubs I was part of had their feet firmly set on the real thing


I met her in a club down in North Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola
C-O-L-A cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice she said, "Lola"
L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walk like a woman and talk like a man
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said, "Little boy won't you come home with me?"
Well, I'm not the world's most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes
Well, I almost fell for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola lo lo lo lo Lola

I pushed her away, I walked to the door
I fell to the floor, I got down on my knees
I looked at her, and she at me
Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world
Except for Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well I left home just a week before
And I've never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said, "Little boy, gonna make you a man"
Well I'm not the world's most masculine man
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
And so is Lola

Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola...

Very folky, I'm sure
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Swan Arcade - Lola

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks' 'frothiness' and to never having become a man and therefore to not having 'put aside foolish things'. I don't suggest their songs are candidates for folk songs, but just like McColl's 'Dirty Old Town' they're bloody good. Or am I straying from the discussion...yes, probably...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective". So what are "the rest" to be called, if not "folk"?

That was exactly my point, that "folk" as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. The point where modern songs performed in that style cease to be "similar in style and objective" to traditional songs is always going to be blurred, and individual opinions on where the line should fall will inevitably differ.

Folk clubs are first and foremost places of entertainment rather than scholarship - whilst an understanding of folk tradition and folk process can add to one's enjoyment (which can be said of any form of music) it is not essential in order to enjoy it. For many people, what attracts them to folk music in the first place is how it sounds and what it says, if that leads them to an understanding of its roots then so much the better.

I was not suggesting that the Kinks' "Lola" is by its nature a folksong (although it tells a story), what I was saying is that Swan Arcade's performance in a folk style made it suitable for a folk club. In the same way, Britten's treatment of "Foggy Dew" and Pears' singing style took outside the scope of folk clubs, although it cannot alter the fact that the original is folksong.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:55 AM

" I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music"
Not if it's buried in evenings full of songs that have no identity to what you have sung
The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective
I go to a Classical concert to hear classical and classically based music - the same with Jazz, C and W, hip-hop, - any genre you care to name
I ask again - why should folk be any different ?
I quite enjoyed the frothiness of The Kinks back in the day, (I quite liked Buddy Holly and Rickie nelson and some of the other outpourings of the Music Industry) but "when I became a man I put aside foolish things" as they say
SFA to do with the slices of cultural history ot human drama that the fokk songs are
I think the fact that The KInks have been raised as likely candidates for today's folk scene makes my point far better than i can
I can just see the thousands of today's youth filling the folkk lubs to listen to their songs - are you people puling my chain !!!
Jim Carrollo

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

Jim Bainbridge makes an interesting point. I have raved on about the Kinks ad nauseam to anyone who'd listen, particularly American friends. To my mind the most English of bands, Ray Davies' lyrics capture the time and the mood which I remember so well. As you say, singing in an English accent helps, and to Jim's list I'd add the song 'Victoria' ...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:48 AM

the answer was 42 whatever it was

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

I've forgotten what the question was!

:D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

501... and still no answer to the question. Congrats.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

500!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

No one really has an identity when they sing. You take on (or attempt to take on) the persona of the person making the statement.

Isn't that right?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If you want education and research you can use the resources of a library or the internet.
If you want entertainment you can go to a folk club or many other venues.
In a folk club the audience may or may not participate to varying extents. They are entertained by a mix of material loosely labelled folk. It may be traditional, it may have been written last week, It may be in a published source, it may not.
It may be subjected to copyright it may not, this may apply to the arrangement, lyrics, or both.
some may be interested in the origin of the material others may not.
It is a broad church therefore it should be no surprise that what is regarded asfolk is equally broad. Trying to pigeonhole a minor spectrum of the material into one box and exclude everything else is not going to fly.
Traditional folk was composed in a traditional way as we have been told ad nauseum. But to quote a well known modern folksong:
Like my house that fell to progress my trade's a memory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SB4gB3DEhA

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

When Roy Bailey died recently many newspapers carried obtuaries, in which he was invariably referred to as a "folksinger". They didn't feel the need to explain the term, so presumably they expected their readers to understand it. Of course, since many of his songs were not traditional they were not "folk", according to you, so this is another misuse of the term. However there is clearly no point in trying to persuade you of the meaning of the English language.

We are discussing folk clubs. If "folk" means the traditional music which came from the people, are you saying that folk clubs should present only traditional songs? If that is the case then the rot set in during the 60s boom, because most of the clubs were already including other songs as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM

I guess I will have to wait for a reply until you return from seeing Hamlet.

I suppose There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. :-)

If it is after lunchtime tomorrow I will be hiding in a Dales pub, drinking good beer, singing (non folk) songs and offline :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Yes really...

I would say that the songs written by Ray Davies of the Kinks around the height of the 'folk' boom were some of the most perceptive and interesting of any written around that time.
a few- Dead End Street
      Sunny Afternoon
      Village Green Preservation Society

I will not make any comparison with 'folk' or 'contemporary' songs of that era, but I'd recommend that any critic of the Kinks should actually listen to the words, always sung in an identifiably English accent.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM

"Oh yes I can!!!"
Snipe away then Steve and it will be treated with teh contempt it merits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Oh yes I can!!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

Don't get distracted, Jim. I asked first! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

"Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!"
Is that why you gave up sever threads ago and stood on the sidelines egging others on Steve ?
New Research writ large
Please take part or butt out - you can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:23 AM

"Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning "
Far from it Howard - it floated outr boat for several decades until it was edged out by an amorphous something else
It still exists in recordings, published collections, labels like Topic, Springthyme, Folktrax and Folkways, and is heavily documented
Over here, just across the Irish Sea, youngsters are finding for the first time in their many thousands and plating and singing it to a perfection that is breathtaking
There is no "general use" of the term folk - most people don't use it , those few who do are guided by its misuse rather than what it actually is.
THere isn't enough agreement of the misuse to have stabalised it into a different meaning

Look - in the end, the misuse doesn't interest me other than the damage it has had done and continues to do on the real thing
None of you seem to be prepared to discuss that damage, which confirms MacColl's words for me - "Folk song will only die if it falls into the hands of those who don;t like it or don't understand it"
Until some of you are prepared to discuss the real thing, I see little point in these circles we seem to be moving in
The Kinks - Really !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

Jim, it is commonplace for words to have two (or more) meanings, especially where one is in general use while another has a more technical meaning for specialists. Most activities have their specialist language, because they need to be more specific and nuanced than the general language allows. There is nothing wrong with this jargon, indeed it is absolutely necessary, provided it is used in the correct context.

Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning (for brevity I will write this as "!folk" to distinguish it from the general meaning). It is of necessity precise and restricted in its meaning, and it is intended to be used as a definition of what is under discussion.

The general use of "folk" is more a description of a range of sounds and styles which make up a distinct genre. It is not a definition, and it is not precise because it doesn't need to be. It is mainly concerned with how a performance sounds, rather than the origins of the song itself. It is a useful label to help people to know which rack to go to in record shops, or in the words of Terry Pratchett, to know that "folk music is about to be perpetrated, and give them time to get out of the way." This use of the word has been around since at least the 60s, and possibly earlier, and I do not believe for a moment that you do not understand what it means.

This general use includes traditional song, but this because of the styles in which this is usually performed. Not all !folksong is "folk" - for example, "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" is !folk, but when arranged by Benjamin Britten and performed by Peter Pears it is not "folk". On the other hand, Swan Arcade's version of the Kinks' "Lola" is "folk" because of the style of their performance.

These two meanings are not contradictory or confusing when used in context. However folk clubs exist in the the general world, they are places of entertainment rather than academic study, and it is the general meaning of "folk" which applies to them. Only a small number of clubs restricted themselves entirely to traditional !folk, and that was sufficiently unusual to attract comment. Most clubs have always put on a range of music, including traditional !folk but not limited to it. (Many people interested in "folk" are also interested in !folk, but by no means all of them, and an understanding of !folk is not necessary to enjoy "folk" simply as a form of music).

The reason why I feel this discussion is at cross purposes is that you are insisting on using the jargon !folk meaning when in discussing folk clubs we should be using the general meaning. This is simply pedantic, and unhelpful to the discussion. Folk clubs have always presented a wider range of music than strictly traditional, but usually within the broader scope of "folk" in its general sense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:57 AM

Ah, OK. Sorry Jim, but I tend to think a post that starts "When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave", the statement and therefore the post must be addressed to me. Just call me old fashioned :-)

Having got that out of the way, I suppose I need to re-phrase my question. You say "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". That is the only statement I am referring to. My question is about what makes you think that. I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music. So it does have a distinct identity. I have not noticed any links to other contributors performing and I am not aware of ever having seen them live so I do not know if they sing folk songs or not. How do you know that what they sing does not have a distinct identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

2Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? "
These are generally addressed comments not aimed at anybody in particular Dave, but some of the arguments you have put up indicate that you are happy with a scene that does just that
You linked to your club yet put up failed (to one degree or another) or wannabe pop singers
Folk is folk - it defines itself and we've been arguing that definition for some time now
What is being put up as suitable for modern clubs bears no relation to folk as it has always been
The argument seems to be whether a small and diminishing group of folkies can make 'folk' mean sonething else (but seem reluctant to say what exactly (playing a guitar on the street seems to have come nearest - Dublin streets are full of wannaby Tommy Steels (I kid you not), doing just that

"and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? "
You didn't - Ray did
Keep up :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

...and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? :-(

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

Sorry Jim but I think I have lost the thread here.

When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did

Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? Not me as I don't run anything at all!

Next, I am confused as to the difference between 'what I put up as folk music' and 'what I linked to'. Why is the former not folk music but the latter is? I just mentioned what I linked to in context of your statement about what people on here sing. I have not 'put' anything else up as folk song. I think you may be referring to something much earlier when all I am asking for is an explanation of why you think "while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

"That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. "
When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did - but that's not what is being argued for here
I actually enjoy what I do and am involved in - hedonistic, I suppose, but none of us are in position to define anything based on what we like - the reverse is the case - we involve ourselves in things that are already defined and we have no right to re-define them because they don't suit us

"far too argumentative"
Isn't that what we're here for - to share ideas and argue for them if we don't agree
You can hardly claim that I have not put up a case for my views - that you don't agree with it is something else
I've never regarded Mudcat as a fanzine site where we come together to slap each other on the back - I came to learn and share
You've put a lot of time and effort into something you now decide if an "off-topic sub thread" - what took you so long to decide that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity

That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. How many people on here have you heard singing and how do you know what songs they sing? The ones I have linked of me singing/playing, for instance, are all folk songs as far as I know. Are you telling me otherwise? In fact, there is one in particular that I learned off my Dad, who learned it off a Gypsy guitarist in pre-war Poland and no-one knows anything about it apart from that!

As far as I am concerned, hedonistic as it sounds, it is only for enjoyment now. I am of an age that if I don't enjoy it, I don't do it. Other than medical procedures and funerals that is.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

I nearly resisted from making further comment

It is a fact that no one can force anyone to think any differently than they are prepared to ~ that btw includes everyone on this thread ~ Jim Carroll is far too argumentative

If this were a court of law I know where my understanding would be

NO further comments on this off topic sub thread from me

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:51 AM

It goes far beyond 'enjoyment' - that my be why we became involved in it in the first place, but once you do, it takes on far mor needs and functions
It would be interesting to discuss why people sing what they do, but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity, that's out of the question
I can tell you what brought me to folk songs and why I have continued to sing and be interested in them for nearly three quarters of my life - I wonder if anybody else can ?

"Howard, how your head must ache!"
Very profound Stave - and very safe
Always easier to stand on the sidelines and let someone else do the hard work
JIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM

Enjoynent is subjective, i enjoy most things i hear in guest booking clubs , i do not enjoy lets all go on a summer holiday, some enjoy fred jordan singing tiptoe through the turnips. or carthy singing rave on, thers no accountimg for taste

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

...Maybe I am too easy to please but it does make for some very enjoyable evenings :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

I'll be honest. I used to be actively involved in running both a folk club and a festival for nearly 30 years I have not been active for around 10 years and not involved at all for 6. I still go to folk clubs and occasionally sing (reasonably) and play a couple of instruments but to no great extent. When I perform I try to do folk songs. When I am listening I really don't care about the provenance of the song as long as it meets my own measure of a folk song, I like it and it is well performed.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Howard, how your head must ache!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:00 PM

perhaps its part of the folk process that we have extemporised a new variant of the meaning of the word.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

when i go to a jazz club i expect to hear improvisation ,i cetainly do not want to hear cliff richard performing

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

"Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings."
I know nothing of the sort Howard
It has a researched definition and it has become meaningless - a convenient label for a small and rapidly diminishing group of people who have decided to make use ofr it
There is massive researched documentation which confirms the first there is not even agreement on what the latter group mean - no documentation, no research.... just a deliberate misuse of the term
Singer with a guitar could mean any pop singer, equally it could be a Spanish traditional singer
His gets more and more ridiculous
The vast number of people in Britain have no idea what folk music means, nor do tey care
Tpo base anything on that level of ignorance or disinterest is a desperate grasping of straws to justify the unjustifiable
I find it sad that anybody should wish to go to such lengths to, in essence, replace an extremely important art form with.... well - nothing really
Sorry - you really are going to have to do better than that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:41 PM

I can , but not sure they are a threat more what i do not want to listen to, peggy sue.. one peformer used to specialise in them he performed them well ,but it is not what i go to folk clubs tohear,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings. One is the original meaning, which you cling to. The other is broader, and includes traditional song but also extends to modern songs, It can be briefly, if not entirely accurately, summarised as a "singer with a guitar". It is this broader meaning which is what the general public understands by "folk music", which is why I am confident that most people would have said my busker was performing a folk song. In much the same way I would expect them to be able to recognise a jazz band or a classical string quartet, and distinguish between a fiddler playing folk tunes and a violinist around the corner playning Bach. People may not know much about musical genres, but they have a broad idea what they sound like.

You may feel this is an incorrect meaning (I assume it comes from America, where it may have more of a connection with authentic traditional folk) but that is how it is widely understood. The folk scene as a whole also embraced that meaning, from at least the 1960s. There may be a case to be made that the 60s boom was largely given its impetus by this sort of folk, at a time when performers like Dylan, Donovan, Peter Paul & Mary, Simon & Garfunkel etc were part of mainstream popular music. Individual clubs positioned themselves at different points along the spectrum between wholly trad and wholly contemporary, but in most you could expect to hear a mixture of both.

To pretend that this meaning of "folk" does not exist or should be ignored is to bury your head in the sand. This is the music, centred on traditional songs but including much more, which the folk clubs existed to promote. This is what the public at large, "the folk", understand "folk music" to be.

This is why I said earlier that we are at cross purposes, because when we we talk about "folk" we mean different things.

I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion about why the clubs declined, that has been discussed at length elsewhere. You have claimed that the current problem is that folk clubs have become places where you can expect to hear pop songs rather than traditional songs. Can you please give some examples of some of these pop songs which you feel present such a threat?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:52 AM

Literacy had the eventual effect of destroying the oral traditions because it did away with the need for them

I think the facts do not wholly support that assertion, unless talking specifically about travellers.
" Irish literacy rates before the Great Famine were high relative to GDP per head. In 1841 nearly half of those aged 5 years and over could at least read, while 53 per cent of those aged over 15 years declared some literacy. Literacy in, say, Italy or the Iberian peninsula was less than half the Irish rate at this time, and in the late 1820s more than half of [male] recruits in half of France’s eighty-six départements were illiterate"
https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp10_22.pdf


iscovery.ucl.ac.uk/10019999/2/__d6_Shared%24_SUPP_Library_User Services_Circulation_Inter-Library Loans_IOE ETHOS_EThOS - Redact

Perhaps the illiterate cohort were the ones that specialised or kept the folk tradition going. It could be an interesting reasearch project. But the origin of the folk revival was (US) public folklorists, cultural preservationists, scholars, musicians, political activists, musical entrepreneurs, and folk musicians together in the effort to protect and preserve, as well as promote and popularize, the genre of folk music.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-03232011-085825/unrestricted/FINALDISSERTATION.pdf

It must also be kept in mind that modern illiteracy rates appear to be rising and the statistics are frighteningly high (I am assuming the UK matches closely the figures from Ireland

https://www.nala.ie/literacy/literacy-in-ireland

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

Missed a bit
"What proportion of the songs in this book are broadside ballads and what proportion would you say are taken from oral tradition?"
I have no idea which of Bells songs originated from the oral tradition, any more than you have
That Bell got them from print is totally immaterial to where they originated, as you should know
Jim Carroll