UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:36 AM

So, Jim, do you really think the links I provided of my performances at Swinton prove that the folk club there is no longer working? The songs I linked were me performing 3 pieces at different times. "The old cock crow" unaccompanied; "The harvest of the moon", with concertina accompaniment and a guitar piece of unknown origin that I learnt from my Dad. I would have thought they were just the type of pieces that work in folk clubs. Why do you say "from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there"?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:12 AM

Not really interested in the firm of solicitors, just their ill-informed rudeness about my chosen home town
Rudeness, envy and back-biting seems to be a built in part of today's folk scene
Nice to add yet another myth (about MacColls hidden millions) to my collection - perhaps one day we'll be able to discuss is work and ideas - should we all live that long!!!

"Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Dedicated singer (performer sounds far too professional) should realise that the first person to please is themselves - do that and you stand a far better chance of taking your listeners with you
Despite rumors to the contrary, I have firmly come to the conclusion that our folk songs were made to respond to what was happening around them and to record it in song - we've actually been told that by source singers and have recorded descriptions of songs being made
The 'sale' aspect of singing and songwriting was, with very little doubt, always a secondary issue until the hacks entered the picture and, as has been admitted by the print origin lot, that was a two-way street - nobody will ever know which direction the bulk of the traffic moved, we can only use our common sense to decide that - dates men nothing if you don't have all the information

Ray's description of the revival in no way coincides with my experience
We were lucky to have MacColl and Seeger as residents, but we relied on all our residents - booking guests was a break in the normal run of things
Our clubs - there were several - were very much grassroots affairs designed to promote the songs - not the singers - and to encourage the making of new songs
Can't say that any of Ron's first list were among those I'd make much of an effort to seek out
The source singers, most certainly, The Stewarts, Willie Scott, Seamus Ennis, Paddy Tunney, Walter Pardon, Joe Heaney, the Travellers we recorded, Jeannie and Lizzie... I was lucky to see them all and many more
I wasn't there, but Pat remembers the night Harry Cox was the guest and started rather uncomfortably, until he turned his back on the audience, spat his new false teeth into his handkerchief and turned around and transfixed the audience with his singing

The Singers was among the first to stick traditional Irish musicians in front of a folk club audience, we saw the best, McCarthy, Casey, Meehan, McGlinchey, Sherlock...
I still have a recording of the glorious night when Offaly box player, John Bowe formed an instant friendship with Bert Lloyd on the Singers Club stage
A club member asked us to book this new fiddle play he'd just heard, so we booked a fresh-faced young Kevin Burke and his mate, P J Crotty - magic nights that never leave you - I wouldn't swap one of them for all your folk superstars
That's what the revival meant for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:57 AM

Derek was not a traditional singer he was a revival singer who sang trad songs thers a difference.the elliots of birtley are not to be confused with derek elliot

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:51 AM

Did the average punter in the 60's go to a folk club to be entertained,educated, both,or some other reason?
Speaking for myself I would not want to hear a never ending dirge like the unquiet grave in a folk club, but could happily listen to John Conolly singing selfpenned material about the Grimsby/Hull fishing industry.If I received an education from my experiences it was peripheral and incidental, I was there for entertainment.
I wonder if traditional and contemporary folk music passes the old grey whistle test and would this account for the longevity of certain material?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

Apropos of nothing at all, Derek and Dorothy had a shop in Whitby. Dunno if they still do. It had pictures of Derek with various cast members from Heartbeat on the walls. Funny that a traditional singer was in a TV series with a Buddy Holly song as a theme init... :-D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

agreed.
theres a great little quartet round here of adults old enough to know better calling themselves No Direction.
very jolly!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:20 AM

Yes the Folk club boom of the 1960s was multifaceted ~ entertainment ~ singing choruses, see and listening to the likes of Nick Jones with his guitar skills and accompaniments to traditional songs

June Tabor and Maddy Prior ~ the folk entertainers, Tony Capstick, Mike Harding etc

The opportunity to try out songs and get others to sing along ~ a voyage of discovery as to where "we" came from that is our social and family history in song ~ Fred Jordan, The Coppers, The Elliotts (of Birtley) etc

People at gigs may have been hero worshipers but I certainly was too bashful to approach the booked guests!

Must say I still enjoy harmony singing groups ~ Derek and Dorothy Elliott (of Barnsley), The Voice Squad superb

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:12 PM

Well Nic never grabbed me, He was a fine musician. A great fiddle player. People forget that because his singing and guitar playing were so good.
because He got great reviews for his albums in MM at the time, People turned out to see him - he was definitely on the radar.

But he never spoke much on the stage and presented his songs and explained why he chose them. So it was largely unfamiliar material to the audience, which is asking a lot.

In that period, folk club audiences were always polite and appreciative, but I never seemed to hear gasps of admiration or saw people queuing up after the gig.

He was a better really as a recording artist. The albums have stood the test of time.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:06 PM

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear"
Nic Jones once said to me, you dont ask the audience what they want to hear you convince them that they want to hear what you want to perform, that what performing is about, you grab the audience

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:39 PM

Coope. Boyes and Simpson....not my cup of tea but i should have thought they were yours, Jim. Very traddy.

undeniably talented. i should imagine they're all doing okay.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

The only links I have posted are of me performing, Jim. From these you have determined that "it doesn't seem to have worked there". Thanks a bunch. You really know how to bolster a man's confidence.

Don't complain about anyone else being personally insulting again. Just when I thought we were beginning to understand each other.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Thank you for the clarification and apology, Jim

a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat)
(Barry) Coope, (Jim) Boyes and (Lester) Simpson were for quite a number of years the top attraction on the folk club scene in England. The fame that surrounded them mainly due to their wonderful suites of First World War Songs which resulted in their gaining several BBC series to deliver their songs. This made them a major venue attraction with their fees way beyond the means of folk clubs but in spite of this they would fit in visits to our club in Lewes as we had booked them as individuals and as a group even before their rise to fame. I am very grateful to them for doing so.
All three have a very strong background in traditional song and I would rate their album of folk songs Hindsight and their album of folk carols A Garland of Carols as amongst the finest by folk revival singers this century.
Jim & Georgina Boyes have now moved to live in Belgium but Lester and Barry have joined forces with the superbly talented sisters Jo Freya & Fi Fraser in a quartet called Narthen.

Perhaps the oddest thing about your post was that it combined this perjorative description of these very fine performers with a sentence that included the words "you need to learn to receive what you dish out" when actually there is never any call for comments that demean others. Mudcat would be a much healthier place without them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 03:32 PM

Boom and fizzle has been the norm for all kinds of music for centuries, with the cycles steadily shortening since the 18th century. 1815: waltzes. 1842: polkas. 1850s: Highland pipes. 1870s: brass bands.

Those all stuck around for a while. Later on they tended not to. 1900ish: ragtime 1915: jazz - which only survived by becoming something quite different every decade, finally vanishing below public visibility around 1970. The Charleston: maybe ten years from 1920. Foxtrots: not much longer. Instrumentals featuring weird sounds: 1940-1960. String-based easy listening: 1950-1970. Rock and roll: more durable but mainly hung on by fusing with other things. Trippy synthesizer music: 1970s.

Is it really surprising that revived folk ran out of novelty on the same timescale as the Twist?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:54 PM

!You did the editing.
yOU WROTE IT
"but thanks for the compliment!"
No compliment intended - you need to learn to receive what you dish out
"Looks like a mild paranoia to me!"
Looks like yet another attempt to patonise and insult to me - far too much of that around as it is
"Since Jim is back"
Didn't realise I'd been anywhere - must go easy on the cooking sherry
"What links? What club?"
Sorry Vic - that was intended for Dave who put up links to his club

Off shortly to enjoy a weekend devoted to traditional concertina playing rudely interrupted by a day's traditional singing in the north of the county
When we wrote our letter (entitled "where have all the Folk-songs gone" t o The living Tradition, we were greeted by a barrage of protest not unsimilar to this - one particularity from a group sounding more like a firm of solicitors than a folk group (Boyes Cooper and summat) stood out
They suggested the we were suffering from the boredom of the "long, dark winter nights in Miltown Malbay" - wonder if they're still doing the rounds and how busy they are compared to here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

Me too, Vic!

Jim, what links and what club?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

You did the editing. I just copied it, but thanks for the compliment!

Basically when we agree with you were being 'nasty'.
When we compliment your work we're being 'patronising'.
Looks like a mild paranoia to me!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 02:12 PM

Since Jim is back could he answer my question about my links and my club for he has left me feeling puzzled?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:55 PM

"Your paranoia coming out again"
"Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
You seem to moved on from patronising me to ridiculing me - not what I became used to down the years and totally unnecessary
Niether is necessary - I know my place in the order of hings just I I know yours
Nice editing, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. " (SG)
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve (JC)

Your paranoia coming out again.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:41 PM

Conversely, Gordon Strachan the football manager was not the same person as
Gordon Strachan the Church of Scotland radical theologian. I don't think either of them could sing all that well - I knew the theologian slightly but never asked.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

And Didn't Buddy Holly use the traditional "Shave and a Haircut" rhythmic chanting for one of his songs as used by Bo Diddley and probably many more before him.


Dave,

If Alexa has failed you try the star of "The Wizard of Oz".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:32 PM

from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
What links? What club?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Buddy Holly probably grew up nearer to folk and rural traditional singers than most people in England. I don't think you would have to look deeply into his early work to discern traditional song patterns.

he sounds like a hillbilly to me.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

... the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'...
I always heard and thought that "Flowers of Manchester" was written by Eric Winter, the Editor of Sing magazine. This website would seem to bear this out.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

"I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person."
Didn't know that Vic - thanks
I'd always assumed he was talking about Gordon Strachan
THe proof of the pudding lies in the eating - if you can think you can lure young people into folk clubs with badly performed and out of date pop songs mixed in with narrative songs that require attention if they are going to work good luck with that one (from what I've seen of your club from your links, it doesn't seem to have worked there
I believe, based on personal experience, that the removal of the identity of folk songs from the folk clubs drove thousands of us away from the scene and led to the dreadful contusion that surrounds the term 'folk'

John
"is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events."
Of course they are and very welcome, but I can think of no pop songs that do so
The songs that did work and fit in perfectly for me were ones like 'The Hull Trawler Disaster' or 'Grey October', or Guthrie's 'Deportees', or Jack Warshaw's 'Grape Picker's Tragedy' or, on a lesser scale, Pete Smith's'Clayton Aniline' - or even the anonymous Munich air disaster song, 'Flowers of Manchester'... many songs of this ilk were regularly performed in our clubs and welcomed with open arms - I sang several of them myself
We have a friend living in our market Town, who is a member of one the great dynasties of traditional singers - a household name
He came to our house a few years ago to discuss some of his songs with a view to making a CD - Pat and I were moved almost to tears to hear his own composition about a refugee fleeing the incredibly nasty situation in former Yugoslavia
He recently told me of his admiration for MacColl's 'Fields of Vietnam' (I suspect he was drawn to it because Ewan used Robert Cinnamon's beautiful epic-sounding air for 'Napoleon Bonaparte'
For us, these are examples of traditional forms being used to create new songs
Whether they will ever become folk songs isn't in our hands, nor should it be - nobody has the right to declare a folk song 'folk" - that's the job of 'the folk'
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

Yes, I fully understand that, Jim. I think you may have answered my question with

The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend

It is the sound and function for you. Others may think differently.

I am no longer a folk club organiser but when I was we had a fairly successful club. It still is but that is beside the point. If I was still organiser there and wanted to keep my core audience, attract new members and satisfy the needs of a very important visitor, Mr Jim Carroll, what contemporary songs should I showcase and which should I avoid? No need for specifics and take it as read that you don't want anything that has been in the pop charts. What generic sound and function does the trick?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:59 AM

I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer

I hope I may be permitted to say that they were both the same person. The farmer and ballad singer John Strachan who sang at the first People's Ceilidh in Edinburgh in 1951 and judging by the reception that he received on the recordings of the event by Alan Lomax was outstandingly well received by an enthusiatic audience was in his younger days also a semi-pro footballer in the Highland League.
And taking this diversion of what Stuart Hall called "The Beautiful Game" in 1958 a stage further.....

When was the first live radio commentary on a football game?
1927
Who were the teams and where was it played?
Aberdeen V. Glasgow Celtic played at Pittodrie Stadium
What was the result?
Aberdeen won 2-0
And who was the commentator?
Yes! It was the same..... John Strachan!
No recording obviously, but wouldn't I have loved to have heard John's rich Doric Aberdonian language - very similar to my grandmother's - describing a football match.
...and wasn't the previous matter resolved by the admission that there had been a confusion between John Strachan and one of Scotland's greatest footballers, Gordon Strachan?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:49 AM

Jim,
    Although this point strays from the thread subject, surely a song about a disaster or event that happened many years ago or about an historic, notorious character and was written at that time is in good company with any newly composed song that relates to modern events. Disasters are disasters. I have a tape somewhere with Martin Carthy singing about the Falklands War and I hope he continues to perform contemporary songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

"So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs."
Only if they relate - there's has never been an argument about that Dave
About a third of my repertoire is made up of contemporary songs
It's pop songs past their sell-by date and Victorian tear-jerkers I have problem with
The sound and function of the songs is the deciding factor for me - any evening requires a homogeneous whole if it is going to hang together and satisfy those who attend
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Vic Smith wrote:

"Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.

"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question."

He said much the same in the documentary

A portrait of folk singer A.L. Lloyd by Barry Gavin at 48:20

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:30 AM

So, we are agreed that contemporary songs are welcome at folk clubs. That is one bridge crossed. Now, how about the next one.

Which contemporary songs are acceptable, which are not, who decides and how?

Forget Buddy Holly if he just confusing you. His name, along with Ewan MacColl's was only being used to illustrate the different types of contemporary songs anyway.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:25 AM

"how many people other than Martin Carthy champion, Joseph Taylor"
Quite true Dick - and thereby hangs the problem
In my world everybody knew who he was and what he sang - and Sam - and Harry - and Walter- and Cecilia.... and the rest
I remember being involved in one of these arguments with someone who thought John Strachan was a Scottish footballer - maybe he was, but the one I was referring to was the great Scots ballad singer   
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:19 AM

"I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club a"
Isn't this what I have been saying all along Dave - could have swoen I've said it repeatedly
It depends on how they relate to one another - or even if they do,
****** if I can see how Buddy Holly et al fits into all this
Imagine what would happen if you got a bunch of pop fans turning up and being given a night of ballads and narrative songs
The genres not are not only miles apart in their utterances contradict one other - easy listening to attention demanding
Throw in poorly performed pop songs and you've lost them forever
I sometimes think this drive to pass off dead pop songs as 'folk' has more to do with elderly folkies trying to relive their youths raher than artistic reality
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Any sensible performer wanting to please his/her/their audience would tailor their set to what they think the audience would want to hear. Personally I wouldn't want to sing a 20 verse ancient ballad to a general non-folk audience, unless they were expecting something unusual.
I mostly sing in popular singarounds nowadays, unless booked, and I tailor my songs initially for variety, and dependent on what has just been sung before my turn comes around. Because there is usually a number of visitors there I'll try to sing some well-known songs they can join in with, or something obviously entertaining in other ways.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

i have never heard of taylor swift, but howe many people other than Martin Carthy champion, JosephTaylor

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 10:02 AM

"Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. "
Is there any need fro this nastiness Steve
My world was one were we cooperated and shared our ideas and not tried to talk each other down
Dave Harker seems to have left his nasty hand-prints over today's scene
I still don't understand why '54' should be an issue with the new age researchers while most of us old school hardly refer to it
Of course our folk songs are unique - those who think otherwise simply haven't been listening
Nothing like 99% of the population know, care or ever refer to folk song (there go those mythical percentages again) - one of our great failings
"Traditional and contemporary" had its uses even though it didn't stand close examination
We had Traveller singers refusing to sing fifty year old Country and Western songs because the were not 'the old songs' but wite happy to describe Traveller-made songs composed within a year or so of their being made because they considered them traditional artifacts of their culture
All irrelevant to this discussion anyway - we seem to have a revival that prefers Taylor Swift to Joseph Taylor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

Keep doing what Dave Quoting out of context. As you just did then :-) I explained fully and if you had quoted the full section

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'.

I am sure you could have answered the question yourself.

Your other points are quite valid apart from Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life which is something I have never done. I have challenged you before to show us where I have done this. You failed to do so then and I know you will fail again this time because I have never made that claim.

I have always said that both traditional and contemporary songs can be sung at the same club and I fully appreciate that not all contemporary songs would be suitable. Just as not all traditional songs would be suitable for a 'non folk' audience. What I am desperately trying to get out of you is the answer to my question as to where the line should be drawn. Which contemporary songs are acceptable and which are not.

You are missing the point altogether with the Ewan and Buddy statement so let me try and put it another way. We all know that Ewan's songs are acceptable while Buddy's songs are not. There are literally millions of songs between those two extremes. Which of those can be sung at folk clubs and which can not. Who decides which to accept into the annals of folk and which to reject? I suspect it is the audience that have the ultimate say but I am interested in what other people think.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:45 AM

Gasps of horror on the folk scene and Mudcat!!!!!
Jim, actually has a point, in most of what he has just posted. Leaving aside the personal bickering and the references to birth names which are pretty pointless anyway if you think about it.

Traditional songs in particular are indeed in the most part quite different beasts to those produced during the second revival by the likes of Ewan and all those who followed in his wake. They have evolved in a different way in an enormously different era with different influences.

The 54 descriptors are perfectly good as long as you don't throw around thoughtless words like 'unique'. To be 'unique' every song would have to be one side of the fence or the other and this is daft.

The other meaning of folksong, the one 99% of the population uses, is much broader, but perfectly valid. Most of it hasn't gone through any of the processes described in '54' so cannot qualify for that meaning. That doesn't make it any less valid.

In the 60s and since, most reasonable people have used the adjectives 'traditional' and 'contemporary' to describe these 2 different beasts, both types widely included and accepted on the 'folk scene'.

Now what went wrong on Mudcat that produced about a trillion posts arguing the toss?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:33 AM

Meant to ask John - what are we supposed to tolerate ?
I mt opinion he 'singing horse' approach to folk song has all but killed off the clubs where you could go and hear folk songs
Singers on this forum have described feeling out of place when singing unaccompanied traditional songs
Not so long ago a contribute complained that long traditional ballads weer inappropriate" in the folk clubs he was trying to organise a tour in
Is that what we are expected to tolerate ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 09:28 AM

"You keep doing this, Jim."
Keep doing what Dave - I have challenged you on majotr points and you persistently ignore them take up incidental points yourself
My points are these
Folk song has been regarded a peoples creative art for well over a century
It has been identified, researched and documented and defined as being distinct from all other art forms -
it is unique both in its origins and its sound - easily recognisable
By many/most, it is regarded as a carrier of social history
It comes from a time when people weer active participants in their culture rather than the passive recipients they have become - the makers and re-makers of their songs and music
The fact that it is in the public domain is indication enough of its recognised uniqueness....
Given all this, you argue for lumping it in with commercially manufactured pop songs that have long outlived their shelf life (totally neglecting to even mention the damage and confusion that this has generated on the folk scene)
I referred to it because you brought it up, but Buddy Holly isn't by any means the only one to feature in many fok club performances
I was at a folk concert in Scotland a few years ago when a singer whose singing I enjoy immensely sent the evening crashing in flames by finishing it off with two Cliff Richards numbers - as good as the night was, those are he songs that stick in my memory - a spectacular anti-climax to an otherwise highly enjoyable evening   
Do you know any other art form that would tolerate such bahavour ?
Imagine an evening of Mozart String Quartets being topped off with a couple of Scott Joplin numbers
I love both - in their place - when I go out in the evening I expect to be afforded the choice of what I listen to otherwise I might as well stay at home and listen to may own collection - which, I believe many thousands of folk enthusiasts have long been doing

Vic
MacColl changed his name by deed poll many decades ago - he had his reasons for doing so
hat is the name he operated under and has been long racognised by - it's only crumblies like us who know why Jimmy Miller was over half a century ago, yet his name is still used, along with his war record and a song he made when a large slice of the world people revered the man he was singing about - the world has moved on - some of us haven't it would appear
I don't give a toss whether people share my liking for MacColl and his singing
What I do care about is he fact that MacColl and his co-researchers left an invaluable body of work on folk singing that is nigh near impossible to discuss without having to scramble over this almost impassable heap of personalised garbage
'Tina', 'Jim', 'Vic', 'Dave' are friendly diminutives of real names, Jimmy Miller died sometime in the 1940s yet his name still pops up three decades after Ewan MacColl's death - about time that was put to res too, doncha think ?
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

Can you explain why mentioning the birth names of Archie Leach, Robert Zimmerman, James Henry Miller, Ethel Gumm and Charles Hardin Holley can be construed as "small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become"?

The two birth names that I mentioned were given in the context of recording royalty contracts and I imagine that those were the names that - legally - were likely to appear on those contracts. When my wife is asked to sign any document with "Christine Margaret" as the forenames, she has to pause before she signs it and realises that it refers to her because she has been "Tina" since she was a baby.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:34 AM

and tolerance

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

You keep doing this, Jim. You latch onto one small part of a post and use it as a straw man. You used my 'Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly' entirely our of the context in which they were mentioned and you have now zoomed in on one small section of Vic's 'Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire'. Everyone knows who both are just as they know who Robert Zimmerman, Harry Webb and Reginald Kenneth Dwight are. Buggered if I know Ethel Gumm though.

Alexa, who is...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I tried an internet searches for "royalty earnings of..." both singers in question and, perhaps understandably, neither threw up any figures and only in the case of Holly were there any significant hits. There were a number of sites detailing how the inexperienced young Texan had been ripped of by the big record labels. The stories are horrific if not unexpected.
A quote from one said, Holly only received 16 2/3s percent of the songwriter royalties from The Crickets first hit, “That’ll Be the Day.” when it was well known that he wrote both the lyrics and the melody.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:15 AM

Incidentally,
"James Henry Miller"
The use of a name officially changed by a leading contributor to our understanding and enjoyment of an important branch of the arts nearly seven decades ago - three decades after the singers death, for me sums up the small-minded spite and in-fighting that has often made the revival the unpleasant place it has become - are we now going to have to include Robert Zimmerman in our discussions (why do I doubt it)?
What next - Ethel Gumm and Archie leach maybe ?
It really is time the folk scene embraced adulthood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:12 AM

they had receive payment for less than half of them
Sadly this is an all too common experience amongst songwriters of all genres and stages of fame. Then there are the well documented occurrences of artists approaching songwriters to say that they would record their song providing the composing rights were split 50/50 with the singer. I've even seen a letter sent to a songwriting friend of mine which brazenly stated, "After all, a half of something is better than a whole of nothing!" Sad to say, he accepted the offer.
All business tends to be dirty and full of crooks, but the music business is well up near the top of the list.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

Thanks, Vic. I'm glad the esteemed Mr Lloyd agrees :-) I am more than happy to embrace the difference but, as you say, this is the Mudcat after all!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:49 AM

You have to be joking Vic (even if it was material)
Ewan and Peg kept head above water with occasional tours - apart from First Time Ever which came late in life and was a total surprise, the royalties they got from songs was minimal
After Ewan died Peggy gave me a tape of 'First Time' recorded by 'pop names' - they had receive payment for less than half of them
Tey didn't write songs to make money - most of which made zilch
Immaterial - the songs appeal to different people for different reasons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

Dave wrote:-
It is not as black and white as you suggest. There are grey areas in between and it is those that I am questioning. Who decides which is acceptable at folk clubs and which is not? There cannot be an arbitrary line between the two that suits all people so help us out here.

Breakfast time in the Smith house, some time in the early 1970s. Sitting at the table are Vic and Bert Lloyd - he has sung at our folk club the evening before. Vic had been outlining his confusion about what exactly constitituted a folk song and what didn't. His points closely resembled what he has just quoted from Dave. Bert's reply was an analogy that Vic remembers clearly more than 45 years later.

"Look out of your window. I think that we can agree that it is daytime. If we were still sitting here at 10 o'clock tonight, we would look out of the window and agree that it was nighttime. However if you were to ask a hundred people to nominate the exact moment when day became night, you would get a hundred different answers. It is the same with the 'What is folk song?' question.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just embrace Bert's Vive la différence stance? But this is Mudcat so we cannot.
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"Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly"
Sorry Dave - I can see little point in continuing this discussion when we are so far apart
Th two bear bear no relation to each other and there is no common ground between them
One is commercial based and manufactured for sale, the other is narrative based and intended to carry emotions, experiences and opinions

Would anyone know if there is any way of comparing the amounts of money earned from their songwriting of both Charles Hardin Holley of Lubbock, Texas and James Henry Miller of Salford, Lancashire, both before and after their deaths? If we were to have those figures then we would know which had made the most money (i.e. were the most commercial) by researching the facts rather than belief based on unsupported personal preference.
My guess would be that the amounts earned by both these excellent songwriters, both great favourites of mine, would not differ by a great amount.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 06:53 AM

Jim, you have misconstrued what I actually said once again. I am not comparing the two. Read my post. What I said is There are plenty of songs and artists that are somewhere in between Ewan MacColl and Buddy Holly. It is not as black and white as you suggest. I know that the two bear no relation to each other. That is the point. I am looking at the artists that lie between the two and asking where do you draw the line.