BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:23 PM

Well said Howard. We must not descend to the level of Isis and bay for blood.
Shamima hasn't (and I admit I'm assuming this, but it seems reasonable) physically undertaken terrorist activities. She has offered herself as a jihadi bride (as stated above). She has also been brought up by a radicalised father and been subjected to indoctrinating pressures.

I'd like to think that most British people would not be despising her, wanting to see her suffer or wish her ill.

We can adopt the moral high ground and show tolerance, sympathy and care. I'm old and have always thought of my country as made up of mild, tolerant and kind people. But sadly, this appears to be changing these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Iains, you originally said "we are at war with ISIS". If somebody is bombing the crap out of people, it isn't "we", or at least not any grouping which includes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

Absolutely spot-on, Howard. Those who, like Savid Javed, say otherwise are themselves no better than the savages who radicalised her as a child and enticed her to Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:34 PM

Well put Howard.

Sadly some on here would have her publicly shamed, pilloried, whipped ........... if not hung, drawn and quartered.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:14 PM

She didn't go abroad to fight, IS recruits these girls to be sexual partners for its fighters, that's why the press calls them "brides". If a 15 year old girl had been groomed to run away from home to a location in the UK in order to have 3 children by an older man, without question that would be considered abuse and she would be regarded as a victim. Why should it make any difference that she went abroad?

She was also radicalised, both before and after she left the UK. To undo that sort of indoctrination/brainwashing takes expert intervention over a period of time. To expect a child (which she was until recently) to de-radicalise herself without assistance, and in an environment where the slightest indication of doubt in the cause or wavering of faith will bring down the most severe punishment, is completely unrealistic.

She should be allowed home. That is not to say she should not face the consequences of her actions, which may include jail, but that should also take account that she was a child who was taken advantage of by adults for their own purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:50 PM

"No mention of ISIS "From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:15 AM
Maybe not but a rational person would accept that bombing the shit out of someone is an act of war whether formally declared or not.
Quoting extracts from wikipedia is not a very reasoned response.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41336973

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:29 PM

I suspect that you are right Raggy. And the sad thing is, that he is too. Because the rabid, foaming at the mouth, crypto-fascist wing now rule the tory party. As Soubry, Wollaston and Allen have correctly identified.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM

She is now in a Syrian Refugee camp -
If Assad runs true to form, the inmates of those squalid ghettos will be first in line for his torture chambers in a bloodbath of revenge taking - that's if he doesn't decide to annihilate them in one go with chemical weapons - wouldn't b he first time
Im just waiting for a Tory suit to clam that all this is "being done in the mother's and child's best interest" - that wouldn't be the first time either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:05 PM

I would suggest that his decision has much to do with his positioning himself as the next leader of the conservative party.

Time will tell no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:39 AM

I make no comment on the case of the young lady in question, which case is presumably now sub judice, but it is entirely wrong that the citizenship of anybody should be removed by a stroke of a pen from a government minister, particularly one as patently unfit for office as Javid. He hasn't had time to make a thoughtful consideration of the matter, if indeed he is capable of thoughtful consideration of anything, which I doubt. He is simply pandering to his audience amongst the foaming at the mouth Daily Mail brigade. He should have to apply to the courts for a revokation, it shouldn't be left to the family to take it to court.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 11:15 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarations_of_war_by_Great_Britain_and_the_United_Kingdom#Formal_declarations_of_war_by_the_Unit

No mention of ISIS

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

A 'stickler for accuracy" would not post a quote from a post by someone else, which they in no ways agreed with, i such a form as to make readers understand that it was their own view.
...............
This attempt by the British government to pass of responsibility for dealing with this problem to the Bangla Deshi Government. If this young woman is a danger, why should that be foisted upon another country. It's a shameful act of the British Government to impose in this way on a fellow member of the Commonwealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 09:03 AM

You have lost the plot Iains.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 08:36 AM

Oh Dear. Another with nothing sensible to add to the discussion, so resorting to crticism of modes of data presentation. Perhaps the wind has gone out of their sails as their representatives, who know better than them, have made a decision they do not like. Does this mean we have to put their perpetusl whinging like Democrats who lost the US election. Perhaps they would like to blame the radicalisation of Shamima Begum on the Russians, instead of closely inspecting the syllabus of Bethnal Green Academy in London that all three isis brides attended, and also the mosques they attended?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:34 AM

"Backwoodsman:
The post appears to make no sense because it doesn't make clear that the first two lines are a direct quote from Raggytash as 2:35pm yesterday.
Read in that light it makes perfect sense."

Yes Nigel, I was fully aware of that , I was making a point - a point which, judging by his subsequent posts, went straight over his head.

Fortunately, I'm sufficiently well-educated to understand the importance of making it clear when one is quoting, and how simple it is to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Do describe a child/woman who went out to fight Assad as "a traitor" is as sick as it gets
That she was almost certainly groomed, a were many, makes her as much a victim as any.

She went to join Isis.
She has British Nationality
We are at war with ISIS
Therefore She is a traitor.

No amount of squealing from leftards can alter that unassailable fact.

Grooming NSPCC definition:

Grooming is when someone builds an emotional connection with a child to gain their trust for the purposes of sexual abuse, sexual exploitation or trafficking.

Do you mean radicalisation? That makes her a potential risk not a young naive innocent. It helps to use the right words, but that would highlight the stupidity of your argument.

Your endless posturing about your family involvement in the Spanish civil war means nothing to me. Mine were both in the London Scottish as territorials prior to both world wars. So What!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:10 AM

A perfect demonstration of what I have been saying. As a stickler for accuracy I feel I should point out that 'Idiot' in the above context requires an 'S' on the end indicating a plurality.

Bangledeshi Citizenship
A significant reform with regard to citizenship by descent was brought about in 2009. Section 5 of the 1951 Act,as amended, accords citizenship to children born outside Bangladesh to either a Bangladeshi father or mother.
A commendable aspect of the Bangladeshi citizenship law has been that it does not provide for arbitrary deprivation of citizenship.11Moreover, there are no differentiated citizenship rights for citizens by birth and naturalised or other types of citizens.

jihadi bride Shamima Begum faces ban from Britain as ... Her parents are from Bangladesh.

http://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/44545/EudoCit_2016_14Bangladesh.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Very different, but I can't help seeing parallels between this young woman's experiences and what happened to my Dad in the thirties
When or family heard stories from Jewish neigbours abou what was happening in Germany, they took to the streets to stop The Blackshirts marching - my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone which hit Mosley
My father and his mates, worried at the apparent appeasement to the Nazis, volunteered to fight in Spain, was wounded and captured and spent a year in one of Franco's prisons, where he was subjected to the mental torture of irregular 'mock executions'
When he finally returned home he found himself excommunicated from his religion and blacklisted by MI5 as what later came to be known as "a premature anti-facist"
He was forced to leave home and work a a navvy and wasn't able to return permanently until nearly twenty years later.I have no idea what promoted this then child to join, but the parallels of appeasing a murderous tyrannical regime are pretty obvious, to me at least
Do describe a child/woman who went out to fight Assad as "a traitor" is as sick as it gets
That she was almost certainly groomed, a were many, makes her as much a victim as any
If the West had stood up to Assad's crimes in the first place this configuration need never have happened and Isis would have remained the insignificant bunch of cranks they were
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:33 AM

Idiot seems to fit the bill rather well.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:21 AM

See what I mean? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 AM

Dave the only ranting and abuse is coming from your own miserable cabal and you with your usual sly, devious modus operandi encourage it. Hardly surprising new faces are rare below the line. Would you like a complete list of the thinly disguised insults sent my way in the last week?

You and your vicious little packmates do more to damage and cancel threads than the rest of the mudcat membership put together. You can deny for all you want but the evidence is clear for all to see.
Do you all suffer from the same character deficiency or are you simply
nasty people?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

Backwoodsman:
The post appears to make no sense because it doesn't make clear that the first two lines are a direct quote from Raggytash as 2:35pm yesterday.
Read in that light it makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:34 AM

The only reason for the return to ranting and personal abuse is that people have started responding to him again. Don't say I didn't warn you!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

That post makes no sense. The first and second lines appear to be contradicted by the third and fourth.

Is someone losing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

What the hell has this country become. The likes of some of the callous bigots on this site seem to have won the day.

At the expense of a young person who is barely old enough to be called an adult.

18 is the usual age for conscription in the UK and US. I cannot recall any general feeling that children were being sent to war at age eighteen.

Yet another circle to be squared? or simply inconsistency?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:56 AM

Back to ranting personal abuse I see
Somebody must have struck a sensitive nerve somewhere
Pity the Mods have decided to underwrite it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:55 AM

I'm surprised that corbyn hasn't voiced his pro-terrorist opinion!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Interesting that those that protest the decision to strip the young lady's British citizenship are also largely the same people that would deny people a referendum on the basis that out duly elected leaders know better than we lesser mortals. Unless of course the government makes a decision they disagree with.

As the government know all the facts and are superior to us they obviously made a judgement that we should be protected from her.
More importantly it will send a very strong message to others tempted to follow the same road to perdition.

Unfortunate for her-A win win for us. Treachery should never be rewarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 03:40 AM

Here you are raggedy tash;
Let me refresh your memory.
Your rather sour response response to my joking aside:

Cars are not green. You should walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM

Well. lets see.

The nearest "city" to where I live in 40 miles.

Now in my youth I may have been able to walk that in 10/11 hours.

Now I fear it may take me a week.

Idiot.


There you are laddie! In all it's pathetic glory. Now can we move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:41 PM

Really not worth it, Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

It might help if you included the posters name.

I am not inclined to trace back through 195 post to verify it for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

Nobody has suggested that IF she has put our society at risk she should go unpunished.

No-one, not one person.

Once again deflection is your modus operendi.

wot's this then:

Young people, possibly this young woman, became =involved, not out of religious fervour bu to fill the gap the West left when they allowed Assad to do what he is still doing
It little behooved them to punish one of his possible victims

and you label me the idiot?
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM
Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:44 PM

I agree Iains that fundamentalist preaching in some radical mosques was ignored by the authorities for a long time. I suspect this was because they were trying to avoid causing an uproar among Muslim communities and ending up with rioting and civil unrest.

But while I support tolerance, there are limits to what can actually be tolerated. Pussyfooting around dodgy hate preachers is not the best way forward.

It's now regulated more stringently, but it went on for too long unchecked.

I've had to speak a bit sharply to that 'fundmentalist' couple of Muslims we keep seeing in Tesco. They wouldn't stop demanding that I change my religion, should wear a hijab and repeating that I wasn't really married to my husband.

Eventually my usual easy-going, polite and laissez-faire attitude snapped, and I pointed out that they were lucky to live in UK where we accept all religions and races, and I insisted they show me the same tolerance. My husband said a lot more (ie they were actually committing a crime!) and they stalked off.
They keep out of our way now... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

Nobody has suggested that IF she has put our society at risk she should go unpunished.

No-one, not one person.

Once again deflection is your modus operendi.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

Under Syrian Law it is quite clear. The child is Dutch by virtue of taking his fathers nationality.
Senoufou I cannot see how Piers Morgan adds anything useful to the discussion of the problem, it is merely a rather nasty unthinking soundbite. But it is a real problem. Extremism in certain mosques was ignored by the authorities and government negligence aided and abetted the problem. I can accept brainwashed as being an outcome,but words like grooming betray an ignorance of the meaning of the word, that has strictly sexual connotations. To what extent they were the young innocents led astray as beloved by the majority of those here attempting the moral high ground is a total unknown at this stage. I have severe doubts about such an explanation but that is an irrelevance at this stage. She and others went to a warzone on the side of enemies we were fighting.
Britain had no role during the Spanish civil war but the release of recent records show what a close eye British intelligence kept on the potential volunteers at the ports, and how unwilling they were to prevent their departure. The British government was loth to use the 1870 Foreign Enlistment Act, fearing that if a case came to court it could not secure a conviction, and would face political embarrassment.
the returning British veterans received a tumultuous reception from friends, families and supporters, they faced grave suspicion from many within the government and security services who suspected that the veterans had been ‘imbued with revolutionary sentiments’.

Although it was recognised that there was little chance of successfully prosecuting any volunteers under the archaic Foreign Enlistment Act, many veterans found their attempts to volunteer for the armed forces in the Second World War blocked, or encountered discrimination in their workplaces for many years to come.

A similar treatment was handed out to Irish Nationals who fought for the allies in WW2

In both these cases the combatants were not fighting their own country,unlike the present crop of jihadists.
The closest equivalent would be the British Free corps commanded by Waffen SS officers. Most of the members were handed
custodial sentences.
Some suggest the treason laws should be updated.
It is hardly inhuman to insist that those that might be judged to have put society at risk should be punished. To advocate any other course of action would be stupidity

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

That's true Raggytash. My husband is said to have 'dual nationality' with two passports, Ivorian and UK. But it was 'UK Citizenship' he was granted, not nationality.
It's very confusing isn't it?
I think this may be the first time someone has been rendered stateless by this procedure. And there is a possibility of Appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM

Oh PS it is citizenship she is being denied not nationality.

I post this so the pedantics and nitpickers can't put me up on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

Very sad day. That's that I suppose, case closed.

There are questions as to whether she might be able to adopt Bangladeshi nationality, as both her parents have Bangladeshi passports.
I do worry about her little baby boy - what's to become of him in all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:41 PM

I should have also said that I am ashamed to what this country has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:35 PM

It would seem the UK government are to revoke Shamima Begun's nationality.

Doesn't it just make you proud to be British ............ not.

What the hell has this country become. The likes of some of the callous bigots on this site seem to have won the day.

At the expense of a young person who is barely old enough to be called an adult.

I am appalled and upset by this decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 01:10 PM

I've just read Piers Morgan's (not exactly my favourite TV personality) vituperative rant about this. He advises her to go f*** herself and wishes she would rot in hell.
Charming.
I respect his opinion (as I'd respect anyone's opinion) but why do people express themselves in this unrestrained fashion?

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:34 AM

https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/boris-johnson-s-position-syria-problem-uk
But why link to an article from 2016, The world has moved on since then and the geopolitics in Syria have also changed dramatically.
You merely demonstrate your abject ignorance of the country that you pontificate on whereas I know the terrain of the areas under discussion first hand and have some knowledge of the practicalities of extricating the young lady.

You also appear to revel in the fact that 850 jihadis left Britain to fight.What does ain't seen nuffin yet supposed to signify. Hiding in your bog it is unlikely you will see anything but your attitude seemingly applauds the fact they will return and potentially unleash mayhem.
You are one sad sicko!

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

The sad thing about all this is that around 850 young people left Britain to fight Assad - we ain't seen nuffin' yet
Perhaps they need to think in terms of setting up a refugee camp for themselves somewhere
AND SHOULD WE HAVE A REGIME CHANGE IN BRITAIN....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

I quite often meet adolescents who are "Cold, hard and arrogant"
It's the adults who display those qualitis who worry me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

What she says to journalists after stories in a context which we recipients can't possibly understand is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the case for getting her home. What she says in front of a judge once she's home would be a different matter. The people who are clinging to any little adverse comment by a nineteen-year-old runaway in order to strengthen (as they see it) their case for leaving her to the wolves are inhuman charlatans. We have a couple of them polluting this forum, unfortunately. The kind of people who'd have been out there in gangs hanging untried people from bridges a hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

She does comes across as very hard, cold and arrogant in that interview. But I think she's being very, very careful not to aggravate the other jihadis around her. After all, she's still in Syria and could be attacked for expressing anti-Isis views.

She's obviously been indoctrinated, manipulated and radicalised most thoroughly.

She makes me think of a cornered animal, wary, defiant and 'tough' but in reality trembling with fear and desperately looking for a way of escape.
By showing her care, kindness and reassurance, (while of course going through the due processes of Law in UK) she will have more chance of seeing that 'our' side of things is less barbaric, murderous and wicked than 'hers'.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:52 PM

The young lady seems to be doing all she can to destroy her cause.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1089038/shamima-begum-interview-quotes-shocking-islamic-state-ISIS-beheading

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:19 PM

Interesting you have not the wherewithal to make the direct accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:30 AM

"I find your comments insulting!"
Interesting someone should identify themself with an undirected comment

Subject: RE: BS: Should 'Jihadi bride' come back to UK?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:02 AM

The Family Division of the High Court had presided over cases involving at least 150 children deemed at risk of radicalisation in the last five years.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10671841/The-children-taught-at-home-about-murder-and-bombings.html