The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:05 PM

I had to sell the Rolls to keep putting gigs on ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM

Jim - we know you have a bee in your bonnet about the corporate music industry,
and media representation of Folk...
Guess wot...
So do I, and probably most other mudcatters.

Your complaints are largely justified, and we agree..

So having established that..
It is a very important consideration,
but in this thread perhaps not the most vital right now...

""Sorry P - I don't see how handing our music back to the industry we we used it to escape from is carrying on anything"

I seriously doubt any of us advocate annything at all like that, directly or tacitly,
and would resist such surrender as best we could...

So imho it's pointless you constantly raising that complaint with us,
and at worst a distraction from what we are really trying to discover
through discussion...

I've had a quick look, and I can't see any music biz sell outs amongst us..
nope.. no sign of a rolls royce or diamond studded gold tooth veneers...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM

Thanks for the explanation Jim - that clarifies your meaning

I tend to disagree though (I suppose I would wouldn't I?) I find many (though not all of course) folk rock renditions of songs more emotive and meaningful than unaccompanied (or minimally accompanied) performances. But then I am very used to listening to rock music and relate to the power instrumentation to enhance a song (once again IMO) whilst I gather you generally prefer an unaccompanied setting. i am also a huge fan of orchestral music - including Butterworth as it happens - and have long found music as important as words in the expression of emotions and the painting of pictures in the mind.

Neither of us are wrong in our beliefs on how the songs are best served - it is personal preference. We both passionately want the songs to survive and to be shared - we just disagree on how that might be best achieved

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 11:28 AM

"How is folk rock 'non narrative' Jim - the songs are the same so the narrative is the same surely? How is folk rock 'non narrative' Jim - the songs are the same so the narrative is the same surely? "
When the words are dominated by the accompaniment and the singer follow the music rather than making grammatical sense of the words it ceased to be narrative or even singing - it becomes a musical rendition
I have reservations about the example I put up, but at least you can follow the story and the emotion arising from the situation it describes
That's what makes folk song stand out
Once the objective of whoever created the song is abandoned it becomes something else - that's not a value judgement, by the way

Sorry P - I don't see how handing our music back to the industry we we used it to escape from is carrying on anything
I's not my work anyway - I dodn't make the songs, I just want to share them
Don't to think we've watched our songs handed over to Shirley Ellis abd Rod Stewart and the like only to see them be copyrighted, used as a vehicle for the artist, given a few minutes of fresh air and abandoned over and over and over again
Each time some eejit has yelled "look, folk song has come into its own" only to see the back of it when the next flavour-of-the-month comes along
Folk song is further from being a recognised part of British culture than it ever was
The media parades the few who have made it up the greasy pole as performing seals, without any attention being paid to the songs, who made them, why they were made and what part they played as history carriers
Tearing them from the club grass-roots is only going to hasten their disappearance and rob the enthusiasts of the social communication the folk scene provided
No internet presence is ever going to replace that
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:46 AM

Jim - your generation of folk activists have layed the foundation for mine,
and those to come..

Thank you...

Now it's up to us to carry on your work.
You can influence how we do it to some extent.
We can learn from your precedence..
You can suggest how you would prefer we should do it..

But ultimately it's up to us,
and those who follow on after replacing all of us...

You let on your age earlier in this thread,
so I know when I was born you could have been a Teddy Boy or Beatnik,
or even a young Square...
You are just old enought to be my d.. uncle..

But despite the 18 years diference, we are both categorised as baby boomers...

None of us liked being dictated to and controlled by grown ups,
and in our final decades..
we still don't..

Just rest assured this new lot of millenials
will carry on the folk music torch..
whether you like what they do with it,
or I like it either...

My generation faught the punk wars,
and yet these ungrateful young f@ckers
tell us to stuff our electric guitars
while they all flock to take up the bloody ukelele...!!!???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:45 AM

How is folk rock 'non narrative' Jim - the songs are the same so the narrative is the same surely? Or have I misunderstood your meaning?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:43 AM

We will have to agree to disagree on that Jim - you have your views and I have mine. I have been attending folk clubs for 43 years, promoted many gigs (almost all at cost to myself), been involved in running festivals and generally supporting folk music for the whole of my adult life. I, like most others here, do not support your narrow view of what folk music is so we are never going to agree.

Folk rock and other, non traditional, forms of folk music have brought pleasure to many thousands of people - it is not about money except in a very, very few cases - it is about artists fulfilling themselves and bringing enjoyment to their audiences.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM

Here is Henry Parker's album version - I must admit I prefer his acoustic guitar version but this is still very good IMO.

Henry Parker - Willie O Winsbury

Henry is another example of how healthy I believe the folk scene is at the moment. He contacted me with some mp3s of his when I was running a monthly folk/roots gig in Shipley a few years back and I was so impressed I asked him to support the Durbervilles - a local Americana band who also have a folk programme on Radio Leeds. The Durbs were really impressed too and invited him on for a session and later one of the Durbs, Dave Crickmore, produced his album and released it on his record label - it has gone on to receive many excellent reviews.

When I met Henry I persuaded him to come down to the Topic as a floor singer and he gained in confidence as time went on. He is now playing very regular gigs, often with his partner Katie Spencer (another singer well worth discovering) and, by coincidence he and Katie are on at the Topic in Bradford tonight. Henry also recently supported the venerable Soft Machine on a couple of recent gigs!

The Topic has been supportive of many young artists and, although the audience is ageing they still regularly programme young artists on their guest nights which run three weeks out of four except in August.

So it is certainly not all doom and gloom!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:26 AM

"folk rock. "
An oxymoron Joe -rather like describing George Buttterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow as folk music
One is a non-narrative product of the music industry, the other a narrative creation of 'the people
If that represents today's 'folk' output it has been sold out
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:22 AM

I love Wille o Winsbury - a friend of mine does a sublime guitar instrumental based on the tune. Just listening to the Offa Rex version - her voice gives me goosebumps!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:19 AM

Apologies that last guest was me! For once I forgot to add my name!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:17 AM

I would certainly describe it as folk - though to be more accurate I would probably call it folk rock. Must admit I much prefer Olivia's voice to that of Brian's in your clip but each to their own. Both are interpretations of a folk song. You might describe the instrumentation of the Offa Rex version as 'noise' but I love it and I am sure many others do too. Maybe someone will hear this version and become interested in the original folk song and go on to hear other songs in the same way I did when I heard Steeleye Span. That is the way the music will survive - by new people discovering the songs and bands such as this are helping that process as well as making excellent (IMO) interpretations of the songs.

Did you listen to the Granny's Attic track? Don't worry no electric guitars in that one :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:10 AM

I've never cared for the singing of the male singer for The Decemberists
so it's nice to hear them with a first rate singer in Chaney. She does a lovely Willy o Winsbury on the same album along with some other outstanding cuts.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM

"Offa Rex"
Is that noise really what passed for folk now Joe ?
NOT PERFECT bUT IMMINENTLY PREFFERABLE
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:58 AM

Also on the same Folk Programme was this beautiful tune composed by a member of Granny's Attic. Folk music is in very safe hands with these young lads! (Sorry only got a Spotify link for this one)

Granny's Attic - Fenland

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM

Here's You Tube link in case Spotify link only works for members

Offa Rex - You Tube Link

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:43 AM

Thanks for everyone's continuing contributions to this thread - do try to keep it friendly though - it has become a bit fractious again recently.

Heard this on the Radio 2 Folk Show recently and it reminded me of the tremendous music being made by Offa Rex - a collaboration between Olivia Chaney and The Decemberists where they take folk songs and do rather wonderful things with them thus bringing them to the attention of a wider audience

Offa Rex - Sheepcrook and Black Dog

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:19 AM

Happiness is good!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:18 AM

well true enough - but you don't learn the craft in five minutes. you have to go about making an idiot and bore of yourself, and stick at it - to find out what YOU can do. you start off copying others - but if your heroes are any good - you find that you can't do what they do - because you're not them. But hopefully by doing something you learn what are your strengths.

everyone starts somewhere.

Out of the hundreds of guitar lessons I gave - only two got to the point where they achieved international recognition. But scores went on to become proficient guitarists.

Some poor sods are never much cop, but they've enjoyed themselves a bit. Isn't that some sort of achievement for them? Happiness...isn't that worthwhile? I think next to that, the meaning of fplksong is very small beer.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM

I've just woken up from my first decent sleep all week...

Wake up routine ..

toilet
check phone for messages
kettle on
check mudcat for any new stimulating posts
and to see what the obsesssive row of the day is,
and which mudcatter is behaving like a nutter...
look out window for signs of zombie apocalypse
cheese sandwich
BBC news
Face up to coping with demands of mother's dementia..
Look sadly at guitars and amps gathering dust....
Look in on mudcat between phone calls, kitchen and lavatory visits...
Mudcat punctuates the day and keeps my mind ticking over on folk music related topics
while I consider my own recordings if I ever get time back to get on with my own life..

To me as an isolated individual
thst is The current state of folk music in UK...

Folk music is made up of individuals and how they relate to the music...
After that comes all the bollocks that feeds arguements about clubs
and University researchers...

Oh for a simple polite thread about banjo strings or capos..
But it's mudcat, you know there will be an obsesive nutter
with entrenched views even on string technology...
Selling your soul to the corporate string industry, or making them your self the traditional way
out of cat gut and fence wire...

Btw Jim.. not telling you to shut up,
just asking you to be a bit more coherent sometimes,
so we know what you are going on about...
Effective communication is essential when we have busy demanding lives
and lttle time to uravel and second guess the state of minds
of distant internet mates...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:08 AM

maybe the truth is that the folk clubs are not what they were- think that's a given?... but the state of folk music in the UK outside the clubs isn't bad at all?


Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 08:57 AM

maybe the truth is that the folk clubs are not what they were- think that's a given?... but the state of folk music in the UK outside the clubs isn't bad at all?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 07:43 AM

(Attempts one last time to get the discussion back on topic and back to some sort of civility, with apols for any part played in disturbing it)

…..

Folk music in the UK is in a good state because of all the recordings that have been done.

This enables stuff to be passed on. To count as folk stuff has to be passed on. Passing on the songs was never just a favourable aspect of the tradition - IT WAS THE TRADITION, and without it, our song tradition would be very much impoverished - non-existent even.

Aural and visual recording has become a part of the passing-on process, whether we like it or not.

Worth a thought?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 07:40 AM

"What have I distorted, Jim? "
You really are determined to avoid a decent discussion on this, aren't you
I've answered wevery one of your questions (and everbody else's) up to now - how about you reciprocating for a change
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM

Your repetative distortion of my position

What have I distorted, Jim? You have said many times that you no longer to go folk clubs and, not many posts back, you said you no longer care about them. Therefore you neither attend not care about folk clubs. True or false? If true, I have distorted nothing. If false, I have misunderstood and you need to clarify what you meant.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 06:55 AM

Folk music is in a good state because of all the recordings that have been done. This enables stuff to be passed on. To count as folk stuff has to be passed on. Passing on the songs was never just a favourable aspect of the tradition - IT WAS THE TRADITION, and without it, our song tradition would be very much impoverished - non-existent even.

Aural and visual recording has become a part of the passing-on process, whether we like it or not.

Worth a thought?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:53 AM

"You have said yourself, Jim, that you neither go to nor care about folk clubs yet here you are again pontificating about the state of them"
Your repetative distortion of my position and your refusal to respond to what I have said really does you no favours Dave - I have responded to this crassness at least a dozen times yet you are now making it your mantra
Shame on you
IJim B
I agree that 'some' people are striving to keep folk song alaive, and I count you among those, but it is my contention that there are nowhere enough to halt the decline
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:35 AM

We older folks who came across the 'revival' were poorly provided with recorded folk music (however you define it) but fortunate enough to actually meet, hear & learn from source singers like those mentioned & argued about.
The early revival singers like Ewan MacColl, Dominic Behan, Shirley Collins, Louis Killen and Bob Davenport took inspiration in their own way from what (and who) were available and mostly very willing to share what they had without any great financial reward. Mind you, the low-key fame it brought was very welcome- how else would a Border shepherd like Willie Scott ever have got to sing his old songs in Australia.
I've only been to one folk club in two years, and play my music outside the clubs, but the decline discussed here has echoes of the previous decline, which the revival was meant to address?
The difference is that today's resources are vastly superior to what we had.
So what I'm saying is that while many people are making serious efforts to maintain the 'tradition' maybe it NEEDS to decline again, so that future generations can re-discover the old 21st century stars like Martin Carthy and Andy Irvine & build a new movement on such folk stars?

Those with any eye for the real thing will have one advantage in still having access to the same sources we had- like Fred Jordan, the Stewarts, the Elliotts, and Sam Larner, to name a few?

So maybe the revival has done its job now & we need to be proud of what it has achieved & not denigrate its current product?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM

The attitude to folk music being shown by today's clubs

You have said yourself, Jim, that you neither go to nor care about folk clubs yet here you are again pontificating about the state of them. How about you stick to things you do know and care about like Travellers or Walter Pardon. Your knowledge and passion on those subjects shine like a beacon. Your ignorance of the current state of folk music in England is plain for all to see. I will no longer engage with you on something you so blatantly know very little about. I shall continue to learn from your posts on things you are an expert on. I suggest you do the same with people who actually know and care what goes on in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM

I regard postings from trolls telling me not to post have the opposite effect -thanks for the encouragement to go on Troll

Al - most music has it's roots in the past and comes back to life at the point of performance - not sure what that was all about
We are talking about what is being passed off as 'folk' which has nothing to do with that description
People keep taling about 'definitions' and 'rules' - they are the only ones to do so
For me, if you are going to involve yourself in pulicly presenting folk music there are a a couple of guidelines
a. You respect your audiences by giving them what you tell them you are giving them - if you don't, you are conning them
b. You respect the music you are giving them by performing it to a level that it doesn't damage its image or its identity

The attitude to folk music being shown by today's clubs breaches both of those guidlelines and the reluctance to discuss it indicates that that today's scene respects neither the audiences nor the music nor those who come to listen to folk song
The reason for this was put perfectly by an earlier poster - the clubs are being run for the benefit of the performers, the audiences and the music has ceased to count

"You could listen to ThWell down in the Valley, or Knife and Sheath half a dozen times without having a clue what they were about. They're a bit cryptic - wouldn't you agree?"
Like all worthwhile things, sometimes you have to work at something to appreciate it
I take it you are not a film fan or a reader (or maybe you confine yourself to Star Wars and Jack Ryan)
Both of these ballads have survived fro centuries - 'Well' was preserved in the non-literate Traveller community
If they found it worth listening to, why can't we ?   
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:34 AM

The last time I saw Joe was back in the 90's at the Embassy in Skeg - along with Mike Penders Searchers. Yes he is good on the mandolin, and the uke. But to my mind, he plays it like an inferior sort of guitar - rather than looking at it as a unique instrument. Of course he tore everyone's heart out playing I'll See You in My Dreams at the Concert for George.

I sent him my Barbara Windsor song - got a snotty dismiss from his management - " Not foe Joe". I wrote back saying, are you the guy who picked Three Hats for Lisa?

As for folk, blues, jazz, being rooted in the past. Its the sort of comment that makes mw wonder if you understand anything about the nature of music generally. At the point of creative performance, even the oldest song should feel like cutting edge to the performer. in a way the audience can supply part of that feeling. The only thing I can compare it to, its like feeling a live fish at the end of a line. And its what keeps everyone doing it.

As to the narrative element being an essential ingedient of folk music. I'm not sure. You could listen to ThWell down in the Valley, or Knife and Sheath half a dozen times without having a clue what they were about. They're a bit cryptic - wouldn't you agree? And the drinking songs. Are they not folksongs? Some of them are a bit incoherent, for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM

Hence it would be better to have his own personal thread where he can type away all day and the rest of us can have more reasonable conversations and even disagreements. Time after time things get constructive here when Jim is bestowing his greatness on the Irish folk scene.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

"You, who claim to love folk music, damage it every time to start to pontificate about it."

Example: I had got to loathe even the mention of the name Ewan MacColl, largely as a result of the tirades relating to him I had encountered here, some of which is in the copious posting and splatter as referred to above.

It was only going back to Harker, that I began to appreciate his talents again, though I still do not regard him as a folk singer.

And I'm still not sure that a trained technician, who at one point was almost certainly self employed counts as a manual labourer as opposed to petit bourgeois.

I would not mind copious posting if it were carefully thought through, organised, well written and reliable. I know Jim has in the past sneered at people not literate/careful enough to write correctly in their posts. Time he took his own advice. And as complaint after complaint shows, his reading skills seem a bit rusty. Too much taking out of context and twisting.

IMHO

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM

Aaaahh! Mea Culpa!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

"Not the kind of Yellowbelly I was talking about Jim! "
I do know that Baccy - it was a wry comment on what seems to be happening on the scene today (which people would rather not talk about)
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 AM

Not the kind of Yellowbelly I was talking about Jim! My reference was to Joe Brown, who is a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly, having been born in Swarby near Sleaford.

And I didn’t make any mention of folk, I said he’s a great entertainer! Which he undoubtedly is. Although, as usual, that’s IMHO and YMMV.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 AM

FOLK - YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS !!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

"You would do yourself, and mudcat a big favour if you also
showed a bit more self restraint with your copious posting..."
There we have it - we have no answer to your questions so shut up

Says it all really
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:47 AM

Another great Yellowbelly! And an excellent entertainer.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM

Have you listened to Joe Brown reccently, Al? He is very good on ukelele. Also does a surprising amount of folk and folk related stuff although I care say some would disagree. He is one that shows quite a remarkable evolution. Not someone I ever considered before but I went to see him a couple of years back. He has moved on considerably from the 50s and now does a show with something for evetyone. Lots of new stuff and diversity mixed in with old favourites done in a more up to date style. Rather like the folk scene really:-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM

G’waaa-a-a-an, ya know ya wanna! ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:49 PM

I've just typed a follow up, which I'm now thinking twice about..

I think it's funny, most others would get it is intended tongue in cheek..
But as usual, you'd probably take the matey sarcasm entirely the wrong way and have a huff...

ooh.. should I risk it...?????

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM

Jim - That post makes some sense up until "fortunately for both of us, I don't"
Fair do's..
After that it just falls apart into random misdirected splatter...

Here's a thought...
Today, as most days, I typed at least two long posts,
which after a break for a mug of tea,
and a further proof read,
I decided to not submit - so scrapped them...

I've another, written this afternoon which I am still considering
if it will genuinely add any value to the discussion.
It will probably also be discarded..


You would do yourself, and mudcat a big favour if you also
showed a bit more self restraint with your copious posting...
Or at least, please proof read your posts properly
so we have some idea who you are talking to,
and what about...

You too often make totally wrong conclusions,
about our individual words and intentions...

ie.. "Nevr mind - yo all have ,Pseudonymous on your sisde
That should ease your consciences a little"

what complete bollocks...!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:02 PM

"I think we just need to accept that while there are people with their heads firmly planted in the past "
Folk, like much of classical, jazz, theatre Blues, is of the past
That's what you sign on for

"No insult at all Jim, perchance a rather insightful description of your attitude"
rose coloure glasses to someone who has spantgetting on fidor sixty years in the game, from asomeone who urefuses to offer any arguments is deeply insulting
If I bothered about this sort of thing it would also be deeply hurtful - fortunately for both of us, I don't
You have offered no argument - you have offered no alternative description of what you mean by folk songs - just dismissive insults - fine
I think you make my point for me far better than I can
Not one of you acknowledges or denies the importance of the music you have swept aside to make for..... whatever
I wonder why I keep seeing pictures of the state we have left our planet in for our kids....
Nevr mind - yo all have ,Pseudonymous on your sisde
That should ease your consciences a little
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:59 PM

One of the greatest contributions made to our access to and understanding of our song tradition over the last 30-40 years has been the Roud Index. The work continues and must count for something.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM

There was a window around 3 - 6 Nov where the thread seemed a lot more positive.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:10 PM

Anyway - can we talk about recent developments.

I love this revival of the ukulele. I've got to admit it has provided me with a lot of inspiration. There are lots of uke groups - one meets every week in Weymouth.

Personally I relate to the George formby split stroke style more than the hawaiian thing. Although , that's fun as well.

I just think its great. there are singers in our local folk circles using all versions of the uke - soprano, tenor, baritone and bass.

One trad group uses the bass uke rather like a bass guitar.

The uke has been around for a long time and English players have been amongst the most innovative, and by and large it has been ordinary working class people who have adopted into their folk culture.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM

I'm with Dave the Gnome. I think there a certain degree of what amounts to heckling.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:47 PM

I must add that in my opinion the folk clubs started to fold because the teenagers and twenty somethings that made them in the 60s got married and had families and didn't have enough time to put into it. Our club was so successful people started going off and forming ceilidh bands, dance teams, mummers teams, writing books, collecting folk songs, turned professional, and didn't have time for the club so much. Another massively important reason is we didn't see the writing on the wall and didn't do enough to encourage younger people to participate. Result many clubs in the 80s 90s full of ageing folkies and now today those clubs that are left, with a few notable exceptions who did encourage younger people, resemble old people's homes.

However, that does not mean the scene is not thriving in many other ways, lots of festivals, concerts, sessions, singarounds, going into education, etc., etc.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:39 PM

For God's sake not the 'definition' again! This has been perfectly well covered in great detail in other threads. The only thing I'll say is that like most terms in the dictionary/encyclopedia 'folk' has several meanings and means different things to different people. Words evolve.

For someone who celebrates the evolution aspect of tradition, Jim, you are remarkably anti-evolution in your outlook.

The folk scene has changed. It had to. Many of us were there at the beginning when the folk club was the hub. There weren't that many festivals or workshops or singarounds or sessions, and there were lots of relatively passive people who made up the audiences. Nowadays because of the many more active participants, the festival, singaround and session are much more predominant.