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BS: prisoners families rights (UK)
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Subject: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 19 Oct 19 - 06:00 PM Just a discussion subject. Today we visited a National Trust property located next door to a prison!!! Finding out more about it (after WW2 Rudolf Hess was interred there). But being curious I clicked on a series of links which led to prisoners rights regarding visits. According to what I read, convicted prisoners are entitled to only 2 1 hour visits every 4 weeks. Turning this around this means that the prison services only allows prisoner's families only 2 hours contact every 4 weeks. In my book that makes the Home Secretary a vindictive little proverbial victimising/punishing family members who have not committed any crime whatsoever. Surely (and ironically), therefore, should the families of Home Office Employers and prison staff SUFFER the same punishment/human rights?? If not, please state below why you believe families of convicted criminals should not have the same rights as the rest of us (unless there are real child protection issues). I look forward to finding out what the moral (not legal) reasoning for this abuse is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Oct 19 - 06:53 PM My view on prisons is that they should be exclusively for people who pose a continuing danger to the public. Not for petty theft, for fraud or for not paying fines or your debts, etc, and certainly not for most motoring offences. And prisons should be places of rehabilitation, not for punishment. I can't imagine that severe restrictions on visiting can cause anything but harm and distress to both families or prisoners. Fat lot of good that does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Oct 19 - 07:38 PM Rudolf Hess was the only person interned at Spandau Prison in Berlin while I was stationed in Berlin 1972-73. While still in custody in Spandau, he died by hanging himself in 1987 at the age of 93. After his death, the prison was demolished to prevent it from becoming a neo-Nazi shrine. I don't think that Hess could have done much harm to anyone at the age of 93, but he might have become a living martyr, inspiring others. Same with Charles Manson, I think. In general, I am in favor of all efforts to keep inmates close to their families. Our local jail has gone high-tech. For a fee, inmates can have video visits with their families as often as once a day - but fees are high, and face-to-face visits are very limited. I don't think that's very humane, but the Sheriff claims this is a great benefit to inmates. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:23 AM I read on same web page that a number of prisons can receive emails, but they charge 30p per message. Something that innocent families have to pay for something we take for granted being free. Limiting visits also limits parental contact which should not be denied to children unless decreed necessary ny the family court for the child's safety. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Dave Hanson Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:48 AM Prison is a stupid idea for a punishment, but while a criminal is in prison he/she cannot be committing crimes. I live a few miles away from HM Prison Leeds [ aka Armley ] what a bloody godforsaken awful place that looks. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Megan L Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:08 AM What help do their victims get? |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Dave Hanson Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:36 AM Got to agree Megan, the system seems biased towards the offenders not the victims. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM Society cannot exist without rules, and sanctions for breaking those rules. Trying to pretend criminals are victims may be fine in a happy clappy rose tinted wonderland of make believe. In the real world it points to a road leading to mayhem and madness. We have had a perfect example recently. An ecoloon climbs on top of a train and disgruntled commuters drag him down and because he attacked a person removing him,he was subjected to summary justice. Mr plod is treating the ecoloon as a victim and pursuing those carrying out a citizen's arrest. With our set of miserable MPs in parliament I can see citizen justice becoming more frequent. The collective kettle is slowly coming to the boil.The veneer of civilisation is very thin, as exemplified by events in Paris and latterly Barcelona. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:59 AM Where did I say that prisoners should not be subject to appropriate sanctions for breaking societies rules? Anyone who gets a sense of gratification in punishing their kids in my opinion are the lowest form of sewage on the planet. So asking a simplw question again, what gives the justice system the right to punish criminals' families a nd deny them 24/7 access? |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Doug Chadwick Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:08 PM There are many law-abiding people who are separated from their families by circumstances. For example, Royal Naval personnel may be away for six months or more before returning home. Prison is not normally the first recourse of the justice system. Fines, community services orders and suspended sentences may be used first. If offenders do not respond to these then they must shoulder the blame for any detrimental effects on their families. Prisoners' families are victims, not of the system, but of the lawbreakers themselves. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:25 PM I spent the majority of my working life thousands of miles from home and family for upwards of 6 months of the year. Don't expect me to be sympathetic to the idea that prisoners have access to their families 24/7. Break society's rules, suffer the consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:36 PM So Doug, do you believe that the children of prisoners should have less human rights than other children? it should be up to families to decide when they want access, not the penal system. Iains, I never mentioned the right of prisoners to be able to see their families 24/7, but the fundamental human right for families not to be denied access to prisoners. As a society we should be putting the rights of families first and the penal system second. To deny this is nothing short of child abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Doug Chadwick Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:27 PM So Doug, do you believe that the children of prisoners should have less human rights than other children? Should we be installing family rooms in submarines for visiting children so that they can spend quality time with their parents ... or don't their human rights count? ... that makes the Home Secretary a vindictive little proverbial victimising/punishing family members who have not committed any crime whatsoever. What I am asking for is that you put the blame where it belongs. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:43 PM Well 24/7 is pushing it. Even hospitals and old people's homes don't have that. There will be many security issues connected with prison visiting. But a punitive regime (punitive for families as well as the inmates) is going to cause angst for innocent family members and will not help in the rehabilitation of the offender. There may well be unreconstructed evil bastards in prison who we all hope will rot in hell. But they are the very small minority. Most people in prison are capable of being rehabilitated and that should be the aim. Punishing families who already have the trauma of having had a family member removed for years will militate against that. We are not in Victorian times any more. And that is not to suggest that prisons should be holiday camps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:43 PM "Trying to pretend criminals are victims," just doesn't happen in the United States, and I'm sure it doesn't happen in Britain or anywhere. That's just a silly slogan made up to score political points - like the term "country club prison." I worked as a U.S. government investigator for 25 years, and I visited dozens of prisons and jails. Not one of them would be a comfortable place to live, and certainly not a "country club." The money we spend on prisons, is meant to punish crime and to make it likely the prisoner will not commit a crime again. One of the best things a prison can do, is give the prisoner an education so he/she will be able to work for a living once his/her sentence is over. Allowing contact with family members, is a very good way of helping an inmate maintain ties that will sustain him upon release. If we put our efforts into "tough on crime" measures that border on cruelty, we make recidivism more likely. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Oct 19 - 05:57 AM The authorities are not penalising the families. The prisoners are. By committing the crime they are implicitly accepting the possible repercussions of being caught. If they do not also consider the effect on their families, they, and they alone, are responsible for the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Doug Chadwick Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM Hear hear! |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM Jesus fucking wept... |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:20 AM The UK penal system is far too soft.. It needs to model iteself on other stricter nations that bang up and torture the criminal's families as well... Threatening to execute a criminal's spouse or kids, ought to make, for example, a shoplifter think twice about carrying on a life of crime... Cutting a thiefs hands off seems to be quite effective as well... Threatening to cut family members hands off, perhaps even better as a deterrent... Now to see which mudcatters agree with the above ideas, but were maybe a bit cautious about mentioning it themselves...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:20 AM If we are going to bring religion into it: Leviticus 24:19-20/John 8:7 I am reliably informed weeping commonly occurs when caught and when subsequently sentenced. Take heed of Proverbs 3:11-12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM Iains Nobody brought religion into the discussion. Backwoodsman's comment seems to be a form of disagreement with an earlier comment, without clarifying which side of the discussion he disagreed with. In his usual manner he managed to be both obnoxious and blasphemous in just three words. Both may have their place, but not if used solely to be objectionable. His comments (as is often the case) are like adding water to beer. They add nothing to the discussion, but manage to dilute it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM The reality is that large numbers of people in prison come from chaotic family backgrounds and/or may be drug addicts and/or suffer from mental illness. To characterise people like that as guilty of making their innocent families victims is unspeakably cruel and is revealing of the person making that accusation of never having lived in the real world. I worked in the East End of London, then Walthamstow, for many years and I came across hundreds of children who lived in busted families, in poverty, in neglect, many with parents or siblings who were addicts or criminals themselves. It's a tribute to the resilience of children that most in those circumstances end up as decent citizens, but, of course, plenty don't. It behoves us to not condemn outright the ones who turn out "wrong" without showing at least some understanding. Dangerous people will always need to be locked up, but, with the exception of a few of the hardest of hard cases, most people can be helped to become better people. Involved in doing that is allowing them easy contact with their loved ones. Not 24/7 but good opportunities and without the need for long-distance travel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM By the way, there has been no blasphemy in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:32 AM Nigs - my words were, as you perfectly well know, an expression of absolute disgust at the inhumanity of the two posts immediately prior to mine. Anyone who expresses support for the principle that the sins of a father/mother should be visited by society upon his/her innocent children is beneath contempt. Know thyself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM It behoves us to not condemn outright the ones who turn out "wrong" without showing at least some understanding. Murder is murder. I do not care how deprived a childhood the murderer had, the victim is still dead and society demands recompense. In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10 years old. Below that age children may be subjected to curfew, their parents held responsible, or be taken into care. If they are old enough to be able to distinguish between right and wrong, they are old enough to be subjected to punishment. Looking for excuses doesnot hack it. Levels of deprivation in third world countries far exceeds anything in the UK. Their societies are not automatically hotbeds of lawlessness. Religion is at the heart of western law because it(law) is derived from both Graeco Roman and canon law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:35 PM Anyway, the point is that some of us have actually moved into the 21st century. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:19 PM The authorities are not penalising the families. The prisoners are. By committing the crime they are implicitly accepting the possible repercussions of being caught. If they do not also consider the effect on their families, they, and they alone, are responsible for the situation. I can't agree. Separation from family is a possible but perhaps not necessary consequence of imprisonment. "The authorities" have the ability to prohibit or allow family contact. It would seem that some amount of inmate family contact would be constructive, benefitting families and inmates - and society. To my minds, total prohibition of family contact, borders on inhumane treatment of both inmates and families. Prison is tough enough, as it is. And it boils down to this: does prohibition of family contact do any good? Does it serve to prevent inmates from committing crime upon their release, or does it merely create animosity? "Make them suffer for their crimes because they deserve it," is not an acceptable way for "the authorities" to spend my tax money. If I'm paying for it, then my money should accomplish something. Up above, posters asked, "What about the rights of the victims?" I agree that government should do what it can to help relieve the loss suffered by victims, but is vengeance against the criminal a "right" of the victim? I don't think so. No amount of vengeance is going to help. Thirty years ago, the sister of a woman in our church was killed by a boyfriend. This woman and her mother made a career out of opposing the parole of the sister's killer, and the parole of all others convicted of violent crimes. The woman became an attorney, and the mother founded a very aggressive nonprofit organization that fights for "victims' rights" - bankrolled by the state prison guards union. I try to keep a reasonable relationship with this woman, but I'm very careful around her because she always seems to be on the verge of an outburst of anger. She has devoted her life to seeking vengeance, and I think that lust for vengeance has ruined her spirit. I believe in just compensation and victims' rights, but I don't think that vengeance should be one of those rights. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Megan L Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:19 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:14 AM I agree, Megan... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: meself Date: 22 Oct 19 - 06:57 PM "She has devoted her life to seeking vengeance, and I think that lust for vengeance has ruined her spirit." FWIW. Shortly after high school, one of our classmates was kidnapped off the freeway in Detroit after her car broke down, and subjected to all sorts of sexual abuse for several days by a gang of young men. They were all arrested and sentenced to substantial prison stretches; the gang-leader was given life without parole. However, after almost forty years, the state of Michigan decided that maybe it wasn't worth the expense of holding him. My former classmate attended the parole hearing, told in detail the crime against her, and concluded by saying (paraphrasing), "I wanted you know exactly what he did. I don't know if he should be released or not; I leave that decision to you." The parole board released him with strict conditions, and my classmate accepted that. We have not kept in touch, but I gather that she has devoted much of her life to both her own healing and helping other victims of abuse - but, from anything I've seen, not to vengeance or even "victims' rights". She seemed to have taken some criticism for not being outraged at the release of her erstwhile tormentor .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:35 PM Thank you, meself. That's the point I'm trying to make. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:39 PM I suppose it's to be expected when the revenge our justice system is based on is argued for as an alternative to humanity and understanding Christianity has always been high on the list of the most brutally cruel and vengeful religions - looting for wealth and power in the name of God to the justification of World slaughter for power and wealth for the privileged It is a religion where those believers who support the weakest and take the moneylenders in the temple lesson seriously are considered a menace God save us all from those who quote the scriptures - they are the true "Smilers with the knives under the cloak" Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Oct 19 - 11:03 PM There's really no reason to bring religion into this discussion, Jim. But since you did, allow me to offer clarifications to your statements. It is a religion where those believers who support the weakest and take the moneylenders in the temple lesson seriously are considered a menace. It is also a religion where there are believers who support the weakest and take the moneylenders in the temple lesson seriously.... The same can be said for all humankind, Jim. Some are good, and some aren't. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:46 AM I suppose it's to be expected when the revenge our justice system is based on is argued for as an alternative to humanity and understanding What do you suggest as an alternative - A reward system? The Old Testament was hellbent on revenge with an eye for an eye...... Modern Christianity has a more enlightened approach. punishment should protect society from the criminal and the criminal from themselves. ... retribution - punishment should make the criminal pay for what they have done wrong. reparation - punishment should compensate the victim(s) of a crime. vindication - the punishment makes sure that the law is respected |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:53 AM I meant to hit the preview button so to continue. What is society trying to achieve by punishment? It is elements of all the above, depending on circumstances. It is unfortunate that the families become collaterally damaged, but the criminal had free choice with his/her actions. People lose employment due ti drunk driving charges that inmpacts families, not being an achiever impacts earnings and this also reflects on the family. Life is not an even playing field and never will be. There is no point in trying to pretend that it is. Think how much worse life would be under Sharia Law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Mossback Date: 23 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM Whataboutism at its finest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM Not at all - I regard nearly all religious with equal mistrust and contempt and have read enough history to feel comfortable in doing so We have yet to come to a satifactory conclusion to the decades, maybe centuries of child rape in the South of Ireland and the North has yet to begin It is not humanity that is the problem JOe but those who use the power of their position in society alongside many centuries of religious brainwashing to get their evil satisfaction from children - those who have covered it up to allow them to continue are even worse, if that is possible Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: BobL Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:24 AM "Christianity has always been high on the list of the most brutally cruel and vengeful religions" - absolutely not! In fact, one of Christianity's few express commands is "love your enemy". It can hardly be blamed if people - even its supposed followers - disobey its teachings. I guess it depends on what you mean by "religion": this can mean several different things, which it's important not to confuse. It can be a particular set of beliefs - e.g. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism. Or it can be such beliefs in general, as in "Comparative Religion". Or, it can refer to a particular organisation professing and (supposedly) applying such beliefs, e.g. the RC Church or the Salvation Army. These organisations are run by human beings, and are as much at the mercy of human failings as any other corporate body, however high their stated principles. Hence the sad situations where ordained ministers misbehave and their parent body, instead of disciplining them, covers up for them. Or different branches of the Church find themselves on opposite sides of a political problem, and stoke fires that they should be trying to extinguish. Which doesn't excuse any of these evils, but putting the blame in the wrong place doesn't help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Oct 19 - 11:54 AM Sorry - thought I clarified that I was not referring to the philosophy of religion - any religion, but to how it is interpreted by those whose job it is to do so As far as I am concerned anybody is entitled to believe what they wish as long as they don't impose their beliefs on me and mine If they wish to discuss their beliefs - again, fine by me, as long as they are prepared to listen to my views The problems arise when religions are adapted to excuse or even carry out acts of inhumanity or oppression - the current crisis the Catholic Church is facing provide enough examples of this Double standards bought about by hypocrisy can also be a major problem We don't have to travel too far to find people who constantly quote the Christian Gospels, yet when it comes to the treatment of wrongdoers, are the first to demand justice/vengeance, often claiming that the law is too lenient - little Christian mercy there Then, of course, there's the behaviour of The Church, the temporal arbiter of 'God's Word'..... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: BobL Date: 25 Oct 19 - 03:49 AM Absolutely with you there, Jim! |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Oct 19 - 12:30 PM Um, who thinks it is not likely to be good for said children to go to prisons to see incarcerated parents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 19 - 02:32 PM "who thinks it is not likely to be good for said children to go to prisons to see incarcerated parents?" Never sure about this, but on the other hands I ha.e ma doots about 'curing' criminals' buy locking them up along with with other criminals to allow them to swap ideas on how not to get caught next time Prison is designed to deprive a wrongdoer of a period of liberty - hopefully it should never be used to rob them of everything that makes them human beings - like families, for instance Sobering statistics overall, for the period October to December 2015, 43.1% of juvenile offenders reoffended, compared with 29.6% of adult offenders. ohnsonn's cure for this is more and bigger prosons Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:38 PM The prisons would have to ensure that the visiting environment is family friendly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Oct 19 - 04:59 PM Visiting anyone in prison, if you're a child, simply normalizes prison. That is worse for the kids than missing that someone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Oct 19 - 12:48 AM My social justice group supports a program called "Get on the Bus." It takes busloads of kids to California prisons to visit their parents once a year. I haven't been on a bus trip yet myself, but all I hear is positive responses. This is done in a warm environment, not over the phone in a normal visiting room. But I've seen kids visit their fathers in visiting rooms, and that has also seemed positive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:30 AM ohnsonn's cure for this is more and bigger prosons Jim Carroll Since you wish to make political capital out of everything it must be pointed out that according to Government statistics the greatest rate of growth in UK prisoner population was under the regime of bliar and the broon From a base year of 1900 the prison population had doubled around the time labour came to power after the fall of the grey man. On their watch if tripled and then quadrupled by the time the Tories brought sensible government back. Shortly after the Tories came to power the figures peaked, around 2011. Since then they have declined due to good governance. Government analysis: The key findings are that, at March 2019: • The prison population is ageing: in 2002, 16% were under the age of 21 compared with 6% in 2019 and the number over the age of 50 went from 7% in 2002 to 16% in 2019; • Prison sentences were longer in 2019 than in 2010, with 48% being over 4 years compared with 33% in 20195; • Foreign nationals made up 11% of the prison population; • People of minority ethnicities made up 27% of the prison population compared with 13% of the general population. Foreigners by Nationality Albanian 802 9% Polish 791 9% Romanian 723 8% Irish 705 8% Jamaican 467 5% Lithuanian 404 4% Somalian 303 3% Pakistani 301 3% Portuguese 242 3% Nigerian 239 3% (UK Prison Population Statistics - Parliament.uk) |
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Subject: RE: BS: prisoners families rights (UK) From: Iains Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:36 AM Difficult to link to a pdf, but for those interested the full report can be accessed at the bottom of the link supplied. https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04334#fullreport |
