BS: US war with Iran begins

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 10:57 AM

Steve. By bloodbaths do you mean wars? Your defense of Iran overlooks their Byzantine tactics of paying for subordinate mercenaries including right now Houthies and militias world wide to extend their influences. Research how popular they are with Arabians in general. This behavior goes back to Persians who messed with the Greeks which you may already have read about. They are proud of their long history.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 11:17 AM

Ahem.

The primary argument in support of the drone strike is that Suleimani was a bad guy with blood on his hands, which is a juvenile non sequitur. There are any number of military commanders around the world who would fit that description at any given time and, despite his prominence, Suleimani implemented policies rather than formulating them....

If Iraqis’ perspectives featured into the reporting on Trump’s attack, Americans might come to appreciate how outraged they are that al-Muhandis and other Iraqi nationals were killed in a strike on Iraqi territory. They might understand that Suleimani was in Iraq as a guest of the government on routine business when the strike occurred, and that he was seen as a hero to many Iraqis, who credited him for defeating the feared and almost universally loathed Islamic State...

While Suleimani was a brutally efficient commander, he was, contrary to the dominant narrative in the US, a moderating influence on Iraq’s sprawling network of Shia militia groups...

Iraqis are now fearful of becoming caught in a crossfire in an escalating conflict between the US and Iran–of Iraqi civilian deaths mounting as the rivals wage a proxy war within their borders. They have reason to be. And many are furious at both the US and Tehran for trampling over their hard-fought sovereignty.

Just 17 years after a US war of choice that was sold to the world on a pack of lies and which led to the death and displacement of millions of Iraqis, it is this reality that most of the discussion here at home simply ignores.

Excerpted from:

https://www.alternet.org/2020/01/missing-from-the-debate-trumps-assassination-of-suleimani-was-another-egregious-american-assault-on-iraqs-sovereignty/

**************

In this morning’s Wall Street Journal seven esteemed reporters committed one of journalism’s professional sins. They buried the lede. Nearly 30 paragraphs into a 2,200-word story, they said:

    "Mr. Trump, after the strike, told associates he was under pressure to deal with Gen. Soleimani from GOP senators he views as important supporters in his coming impeachment trial in the Senate, associates said."

The buried lede suggests something else worth exploring. The president may not have been alone in seeking to please Republican senators who will sit in judgement of him during the impeachment trial. It may be that a Republican senator—Lindsey Graham comes to mind—encouraged the president to act on Soleimani. In that case, we would have to face yet another unbearable truth: some Republicans in the United States Senate are conspiring with the president in defrauding the people to maintain power.

Excerpted from:

https://www.alternet.org/2020/01/the-wall-street-journal-accidentally-reveals-the-unbearable-truth-about-suleimanis-assassination/

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 12:03 PM

So, in order to preserve his own political career, Big Orange has been prepared to sacrifice 176 innocent lives in the aircraft-downing incident. Very similar to Thatcher’s cunning stunt, saving her prime-ministership by going to war with Argentina in 1982 and sacrificing ~1,000 lives in order to hang on to her job.

Pieces of shit, the pair of them. May they rot in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 01:12 PM

Interestingly in 1973 the Falklands became an EU dependency. The only participating EU ally? was supplying exocets to the Argentinians. This is an issue never raised, but raises many questions about the reliability of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 02:00 PM

Did they really write 'buried the lede'? That should put the entire quotation in doubt.

Actually, the U.S. Administration has said more than once that the target was actively involved in terror attacks. I am NOT saying that it's true. I am saying that your (Mossy) 'lead' is not accurate. Maybe you want to go into full-on Trump tactics like Backwoodsy who is going on to incorporate the tragic and admitted Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian airliner to the account of Trump. I suppose it is considered fair to use Trump tactics on Trump, but the end result is to render oneself unbelievable. Is it really worth it to sacrifice rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb?

Which brings me to what I was hoping not to have to return to, but Iran has been rather impressive in coming around to admitting it shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752. I remember the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by the USS Vincennes and the obfuscation that ensued on the part of the United States civilian and military authorities. It was at least as bad as the recent Iranian progression of: "it was a mechanical failure, it was an engine failure, terrorism has been ruled out" to the current admission of "our military made a mistake". I think they recognized that if the evidence was out, and much of it could not be covered up, they might as well face it. Afterwards they can spin it as Backwoodsy is doing above. It is more mature behavior than obvious fabrications backed up by stolid indifference such as Putin has exhibited with Siberian Flight 1812 (shot down by Ukrainian forces) and Malaysian Flight 17 (shot down by Russian forces).

In the case of the USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air Flight 655 it is a confession that the U.S. military could not tell what they were shooting at. I don't know what the Iranians will end up with, but clearly they did not know either. More accurately, I don't think they knew, because I can't imagine why it would be in their interest to take it out knowingly.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 02:20 PM

”Maybe you want to go into full-on Trump tactics like Backwoodsy who is going on to incorporate the tragic and admitted Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian airliner to the account of Trump. I suppose it is considered fair to use Trump tactics on Trump, but the end result is to render oneself unbelievable. Is it really worth it to sacrifice rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb?”

Any leader who initiates warlike action - e.g. the assassination of a senior official of another country - does so in the full knowledge that there will almost certainly be unintended consequences, which will likely involve other deaths, and very likely those deaths will be of innocent civilians.

Trump is a documented liar, and manipulator of situations to suit his own personal agenda - there is a mass of evidence available to anyone who cares to check it out.

There is nothing ‘unbelievable’ or ‘sacrificing rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb’ in those statements of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

Backwoodsman:
So, in order to preserve his own political career, Big Orange has been prepared to sacrifice 176 innocent lives in the aircraft-downing incident. Very similar to Thatcher’s cunning stunt, saving her prime-ministership by going to war with Argentina in 1982 and sacrificing ~1,000 lives in order to hang on to her job.
Margaret Thatcher did not sacrifice 1,000 lives.
UK losses were 255 military personnel and 3 Falkland islanders. She cannot be held responsible for the deaths in an invading force.
You may feel differently, but the counter argument would be that even the 255 UK military personnel were victims of Argentinian attacks, not of the UK response.

Similarly the 176 deaths which you attribute to "Big Orange" (presumably you mean "Trump") were air passengers (and crew) shot down by Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

I don't know if I'm missing the point, but how, for fuck sake, is it possible to mistake a Civil Boeing 737 for a military cruise missile. Clearly the Persian idiot who did needs stringing up on a crane!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

If The Beast of Grantham hadn’t decided to start a war with Argentina, and had simply offered the Falkland-Islanders repatriation to the UK, those 1,000 deaths would not have happened. To that extent, she had responsibility for those deaths - not sole responsibility admittedly, but joint responsibility nonetheless.

The 600+ Argentinian deaths were no less important than the British deaths - every one was somebody’s son, husband, father, brother, and all deaths in that ridiculous, opportunist war were equally tragic, and of equal value.

The Iranian authorities have stated that they shot down the airliner in error, because they mistook it for a US missile. If Trump hadn’t decided to assassinate a senior Iranian official as a way of increasing his popularity and boosting his chances of re-election, the tensions that caused the nervous Iranians to fire in error at a Ukrainian airliner wouldn’t have existed, and it’s virtually certain the airliner would not have been shot down

In that respect, Trump carries some, if not all, of the responsibility for the deaths of those 176 innocent civilians.

It takes a distinct and deep lack of humanity to be unable to see those points as truth.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 05:22 PM

See how far we've come in 12 years- god help AmeriKKKa-

http://bp0.blogger.com/_v63oTveUEGI/SJjLt0sbepI/AAAAAAAAFBA/lbeXYkrzaMA/s1600-h/tom_tomorrow.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 05:41 PM

The 600+ Argentinian deaths were no less important than the British deaths

Now, now, Backwoodsman - you know wog deaths don't count, be they Argentinian, Iraqui, or Iranian!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 07:37 PM

When you consider what I said about Iran in my last post, robomatic, I'm scratching my head as to how you could possibly see it as my defending Iran. Please reread. If you dispute the unassailable fact that Hezbollah arose directly as a response to Israeli aggression, likewise the Iranian support of Hamas, let's be having your refutation with the facts I appear to have missed. I did not say in any shape or form that I supported those developments. You can ask me my opinion on them if you like but what I stated were the plain facts of the matter. There's far too much twisting of this kind going on in these threads. I'm very disappointed with you.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 07:47 PM

"Iran has been rather impressive in coming around to admitting it shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752. I remember the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by the USS Vincennes and the obfuscation that ensued on the part of the United States civilian and military authorities. It was at least as bad as the recent Iranian progression of: 'it was a mechanical failure, it was an engine failure, terrorism has been ruled out' to the current admission of 'our military made a mistake'. I think they recognized that if the evidence was out, and much of it could not be covered up, they might as well face it."

One more time. "At least as bad," eh? Well that's damning with far too faint damning. It took Iran about four days to fess up. It took the US about four years. I'd say that "at least as bad" is a laughable letoff for your country.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 08:34 PM

Steve: I don't think your bringing H & H into the argument as responses to another country's aggression as unassailable. They are terrorist organizations used by Iran, and loyal to Iran, and very far from Iran. Leave us not forget their heavy involvent with Syria. There are supposedly thousands of military rockets available in Lebanon to fire to the South. I'm not sure that is unassailable but I believe it. And those rockets are not under the control of the Lebanese officials. So I'd say that the current dictatorship of the Mullahs in Iran (so far unassailable) is controlling many forces not related to Iran itself. And let's not forget poor Yemen, which unfortunately has been a long time stomping ground for forces outside itself. Iran is a terror state as I've said above. And that is possibly damning with too faint a damning. Consider that there have been demonstrations in Iran by its own people condemning their own military in shooting down a civilian airliner.

Your perception of my feelings about Iran owning up versus American owning up is accurate. I don't recall it being four years, but in this case there is a possibility that you have some plain facts. But as to Iran and its support of terror organizations, I think you have strong opinions that you have used to generate up your 'own facts'.

Again, bloodbaths or wars? You have your own ox to gore and you are simply denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 08:59 PM

Gosh, nothing I've said is in any way a defence of Hezbollah and Hamas. As for who's a terrorist and who isn't, if you really want to define any state as a a terrorist state (not me, thanks), then Western countries such as yours, mine and, in particular, Israel, should also be so defined, if you want to use the measure of how much death and misery you've caused in other people's countries far from your own. That wouldn't be helpful, just as it wouldn't be helpful in this debate to assert that Iran, in promoting Hezbollah, etc, is merely trying to support repressed Arabs/Palestinians. I like the idea that "terrorists" to one chap might be "freedom fighters" to another chap. If you can't afford for your movement to have an army, then you might resort to terrorism (by its convenient western definition). Always remember that the terrorist is the man with the small bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:17 PM

I prefer the saying that a terrorist is simply someone who delivers a bomb without using an airplane. ToMAYto ToMAHto.
Steve:

I'm not going to play good Kirk evil Kirk with you. I didn't much care for that episode much anyway.

It's easy to say the guy on the other side of the mirror who for all intents and purposes acts the same as oneself is the evil one. At the same time the other side of the mirror sees and says the same thing. This is the equalization argument which muddies the water. But this thread starts and ends with Iran and your trying to drag the Zionist Entity into it is a bad case of equalization.

Let's stick with Iran and its hold by force on its own people and its extention of its power to Arab entities by means known throughout time immemmorial. Let's leave your poor ox out of it for now. You seem bent on dragging it in and you're doing a dog's breakfast of it. Even I could do it better and I'm not going there.

And there isn't much to argue about within the context of this thread. Several days ago I expressed the concern that the last unknown of the wind-down was what happened to the airliner. And it turned out that the worst thing possible happened to the airliner. As of tonight Ukraine and Canada are asking Iran to come clean with the facts. Iran's own people are asking their government to come clean with the facts.

Why don't you care about THAT?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:32 PM

"Why don't you care about THAT?"

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 06:52 PM

It sounds like a horrible accident. Iran, please admit it.

Sorry, mate, but you havehave a message to propagate, and you are doing it whatever anyone else says. If you can't be bothered to read threads, then I can't be bothered talking to you.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:52 PM

Good on ya Steve!

I hereby retract the last line of my last post. Mods, please take note!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 04:45 AM

For the benefit of the leftwaffe - it's Argentine.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM

Despite having unique transponders passenger aircraft will always be at risk if straying into contested airspace. If wars are undeclared so also are no fly zones. When defense crews are on a high alert, and response times severely limited, mistakes will occur. The two catastrophes mentioned in this thread are by no means the only ones, and unlikely to be the last. If you have a potential threat heading your way what are you to do?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 07:51 AM

Iains is suggesting a defensive arms race to fly the unfriendly skies.
The cost for chaff and defensive missles is 12 million per plane/
change a transponder frequency response - free - 25 cents per plane

the word DESPITE is a troll master's favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 08:40 AM

Try reading what I said and stop copying our most argumentative member.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/09/how-iranian-air-defense-forces-could-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-t

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 11:46 AM

Iains:

Civilian Airliners fly scheduled flights along prepared routes. They identify themselves with transponders that carry information about the carrier and the flight. Additionally they are monitored by agencies on the ground which issue control instructions. I think that information can be assimilated into military hardware, with some exceptions such as the 'Ukrainian' front, actually Russians, which shot down Malaysia Flight 17 with a portable Russian made Buk Missile. I think technology and diplomatic capability exists to make this kind of occurrence far rarer. Incidentally your link is incomplete. Please check it.

In the case of Iran Air 655 and the Vincennes, the airliner was flying from an 'enemy' airport, hence who knows but I doubt there was a transfer of believable information to assure the airliner's safety. The Vincennes claimed to have queried the aircraft's identity. Unlike Steve Shaw's claim, apparently Ronald Reagan issued a communication of regret days after the incident. What was argued about was the circumstances of the shoot down.
In the case of Ukrainian Flight PS752 this was Iranian weapons targetting a civilian airliner on their own territory leaving their own airport. The Iranians have done well to 'fess up so soon. But they are still in the hot seat with Canada, Ukraine, world opinion, and their own population which already has serious grievances and has been shot up Tienanmen style over peaceful demonstrations. And yet they persist.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 12:47 PM

All from wiki. There has been no admission of liability or apology from the US for the shooting down of Iran Air flight 255. "Expressing deep regret" is not exactly the same thing, is it? The US has tried to blame Iran for putting its plane in the wrong place, like in its own air space for example There is no comparison between the respective responses of the two countries.   

In the days immediately following the incident, US President Ronald Reagan issued a written diplomatic note to the Iranian government, expressing deep regret. However, the United States continued to insist that the Vincennes was acting in self-defense in international waters.

In 1996, the governments of the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..."As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

Outrageously, the Fogarty Report into the disaster, only partly released in two parts in 1988 and 1993, stated, "Iran must share the responsibility for the tragedy by hazarding one of their civilian airliners by allowing it to fly a relatively low altitude air route in close proximity to hostilities that had been ongoing". Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:14 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/09/how-iranian-air-defense-forces-could-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-threat/#78c3fbe722e3
@Robomatic. There is no guarantee that a missile battery will be receiving transponder data, target designation will be the priority. Also it is highly unlikely a manpad such as a sam7 will be tracking anything but a heat source.
That is why no fly zones are designated.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:25 PM

Steve Shaw:

Thanks for the additional info. I feel the same way you do about that incident. The horrible irony of Iran being at the focus of these horrible occurrences is not lost on me. May there be better times ahead.

Iains:

Technology is so far ahead of where it was in 1988 (when Iran Air 655 was shot down by the Vincennes) and with current technology that allows satellites to downlink to elements in the field down to drones, it is certainly doable. It is high time we get ready for an international conference on warfare and this should be one of the subjects. This is one of those blue sky subject that Donuel might address profitably.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:29 PM

Cheers, robomatic. For the record, I think that neither country exactly covered itself in glory regarding these two incidents. At least in this case enough's been said to enable us to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM

At least Reagan, miserable piece of ________ that he was, hadn't murdered someone to obtain an advantage in an upcoming election.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM

Contras, Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM

The Moron factor:

2 guys are standing out in a dark cold field with a couple hand held ground to air missiles. There is no radar or transponder equipement, just a radio. The airport is behind them so they know what commercial jets sound like. Fighter jets are 5 times louder and missiles sound hollow.
Their training was about loading, pointing weapon toward the enemy, hit the saftey switch and finally the trigger.
"DIDJA hear that? "hear what Akbar" "I see a flashing light" "You hear a flashing light?""Its a plane,its a missile" "well shoot what is it?"
WHOOSH What did you do? "you told me to shoot"
   -Typical moron factor-

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:54 PM

Just as reprehensible, Steve, but not the same thing at all. The Contras were perfectly willing and able to do their OWN assassinations.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 10:51 PM

Is there any indication whether a human or a computer decided this particular plane was shootable-downable? If computer, it really is the Vincennes all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM

The Defense Secretary said there was no imminent threat to warrant a drone strike, unlike what Trump says.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM

Why lie when the truth is justification enough?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM

The Contras were backed and funded by the Reagan administration, Bill, even though they hadn't been supposed to have been. OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:25 AM

OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.

Exactly my point, Steve. Unfortunately, murder by proxy is something practiced, in one form or another, by most if not all countries.

Again, not to excuse Reagan - who aside from every other atrocious thing he did, brought us the latter day Republishit Party & Donald Trump.

In the current case under discussion, Trump pulled the trigger himself for PERSONAL, not ideological, benefit.

PS: quite a few of Reagan's advisors are now working for Trump....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM

Without a doubt Col. North did it with a depleted uranium pipe in the Reagan Library while Miss Scarlet did it to the contras after releasing the hostages for US Weapons to Iran . The Reagan advisors/neocon/white supremacist/Restroomcans/Trumpists are indeed clever at murder most foul.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:16 PM

I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities. The Administration seems to be going overboard, and making themselves look rather ridiculous, by trying to come up with an immediacy to act that they cannot back up even on U.S. talk shows. They don't need it. The immediacy of it was that he was 'doable'. He could be taken out with others of his kind and no civilians involved.

There have been a couple of interesting incidents in fiction that have relevance. In "The West Wing" a terrorist who is a government official is attacked at an island refueling stop (I'm just going by memory here, I could be off on details). The U.S. President and his staff feel justified but are conscious it might have legal and political repercussions, so they are trying to do it but not be traceable. Ultimately they succeed with the killing, but not with the hiding.

In "The Good Wife" one of the legal cases involves a drone operator who takes out armed combatants but also takes out civilians. She is court-martialed based on her violation of Rules of Engagement.

Part of me is wondering whether there is actually a planned "Wag the Dog" effect in making sure that the operation is contentious and controversial so that we are ALL being played in that publicity is off both the Democratic primaries and debates, and also diverted from the Impeachment Saga/Soap Opera.

So the Reps are masterful and pathetic at the same time, yet Trump as an 'executer' gives that all-important masculine dominant trait of making his bones.

It may be that I have exhaustively restated Donuel's point without reference to surrealism. Only D can say!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

Mossback makes some valid observations while I find the motive to murder for ideological benefit hard to take. Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.

For the US to undertake terrorism is a line we should not cross.
Especially for personal reasons.

The morality plays robo listed show our dilemma.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:38 PM

there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was

By that logic[sic] someone should have long ago "taken out" - i.e. extra-legally murdered - Trump, Paul Wolfowitz, Henry Kissinger, Oliver North, Karl Rove, Benjamin Netanyahu, John Bolton (a.k.a The Moustache of Death) and a host of others.

We'd better get crackin' - got a lot of lost time to make up for.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:51 PM

”Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.”

I think ‘we’ killed Nazis, did ‘we’ not, because they were invading, occupying, and looting other countries, murdering those countries’ people, bombing the shit out of London, Coventry, Liverpool, Sheffield, Southampton et al, ethnic-cleansing wherever they went, carrying out inhumane torture and experimentation on human beings, starving and gassing millions of those they considered ‘sub-human’, yadda yadda.

Little to do with ‘ideological benefit’, everything to do with survival, n’est-ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

"I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities."

On that same basis, there is more than ample justification to take out (or to have taken out) Dubya, Ariel Sharon, Menachem Begin, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Tony Blair, Thatcher, Pinochet and Reagan. It's a basis I don't accept. And one more time. Why the euphemistic "take out?" What's wrong with kill, slaughter in cold blood, assassinate, extra-judicially murder, blow to kingdom come? Why can't you say what you mean? Is it about wrapping up the killing of dissident Muslims (as opposed to any of "us") in fake respectability?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:36 PM

The legacy of the CIA is murder and regieme change. Those methods got out of control when they were applied domesticaly (Robert,John and Martin)
Thats not the way to make America great again.

Subject: RE: BSS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM

To expand on why I said "I hope..." is that some people value property over human beings. Truth is, when attacked, they are usually destroyed together.

FDR knew of the 'camps' long before they were liberated by infantry.

What racist drug addled Germans did is still in the realm of possibilty in the future of mankind.

ergo I "hope"

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:23 PM

You see
Drugs do change nations.
Germans took oxy and crystal meth into mental hell.
I see an enlightened society using drugs as well.
We should use psilocybin
and THC

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 09:16 AM

Pervatin and Eukodol (meth & oxy) were over the counter pick me ups in wartime Germany.

In the US you needed presriptions. Trump country is most ravaged by these drugs. Addiction is extreme.

Psilocybin is extremely non addictive and one day will be seen as a psychiactric 'go to' medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:07 PM

I agree with Backwoodsy's last comment. The legitimate reason to take out Solemeini was he had definitely done harm and was good at it and he was actively promoting more. We don't need the excuse that the Reps keep coming up but my point which was ignored was that the Reps may be aware of it and are stirring the pot in order to develop all the kneejerk responses they can and obfuscate and confuse the rest of us, and they are very good at that. My point is they may very well be aware and craftily promoting this, not just ignorantly messing up the china shop.

Donuel, have you ascertained good sources of psilocybin for the rest of us? Inquiring minds wish to know ;-]

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:47 PM

No nuclear weapon for Iran...but the UK has them & we allow our women to get cauliflower ears playing rugby - by which our forebears would have been disgusted!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

If you are in the US you have to say Solenami had it comin or you will labeled an accomplice to terrorists.

It takes 4-5 months to make, robo. I have no urge to do so for 20 years now. Its not addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM

I would kinda agree that fighting nazis involves ideology given that had "we" shared the nazi ideology, we wouldn't'a fought'm.