BS: US war with Iran begins

Subject: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:23 AM

Trump ordered a drone strike killing Iran's Joint Chief of Staff 'archduke' General Solenami. Todays date will rank as the rapid escalation of our march to war. This not to say Iran has not made recent acts of war or that the General was not respondsible for thousands of deaths.

Here comes the war footing Trump has planned to win his 2020 prize.
Proxie wars, tanker wars and cyber wars are expected in the near future.
Happy new year.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:37 AM

If Iran decides to close the Straits of Hormuz this could create major problems, especially for Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:38 AM

Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:47 AM

Europe is a continent I believe, it could be rather hard to upsticks and sail away, but am open to suggestions!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:15 AM

Brexit is hard. I'm sure there have been plenty of suggestions, besides Iran has only stopped ~4 tankers this past year.
Iran vows harsh revenge but what is harsh? A strongly worded tweet?
Naw, Iran is known for truck bombs. Will they hit DC or Mara Lago?

During our last Impeachment even Clinton launched an air strike on Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:26 AM

There are lot of interested parties who care about the Straits of Hormuz. It would not take very much at all to turn into a conflict zone.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:59 AM

"Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?"

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:11 AM

Iran is playing the long game of war over US sanctions.
But wars are unpredictable. The killed General was the best friend and mentor to the Supreme Leader of Iran. This may not be business, it is personal now.

I don't think Trump has a best friend and mentor.
Unless its the author of 'My Struggle'.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM

Maybe someone repeated that old saw to Trump about "wartime presidents" always being reelected. A view of the then Obama war in Afghanistan, though Obama didn't start it (or alas, end it.)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 12:14 PM

If the US insists on ignoring/disrespecting the UN then the other United Nations must turn against them; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "There Is A UN".

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

*Amos was right.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

Overseas hubris is a time-honoured way of getting yourself re-elected. It worked for Thatcher and it worked for Blair. I'd say it worked for Reagan and LBJ. It's far easier than getting things right at home. George Orwell told us this in "1984."

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:36 PM

And bush jr.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:37 PM

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:49 PM

'United we stand' stickers here lasted longer than Obama Biden stickers.

United we're bland, informed we understand.

All I know is that more people will probably die over the avenged murder of evil men.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:59 AM
"Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?"

????

The UK is in the process of leaving the EU. (it has not yet left)
The UK will forever (presumably) be part of the continental shelf on which Europe is situated, so will remain part of Europe.

"The UK left Europe"
Total bollocks for both the above reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:22 PM

The trouble with you, Nigel, is that you are too literal with your interpreting. The whole world bar you understands the sentiments behind our exchanges (I'd bet). And I do tussle with Donuel at times so there's no conspiracy here. We educationalists had a category for blokes like you....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:35 PM

That's the problem, 'educationalists' trying to educate from a position of ignorance.
You claim to be 'well educated' and a 'scientist'. It's a shame you cannot put scientific rigour to your use of the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:36 PM

Don't tempt me, Nigel. I tend to ignore your faulty language but that can always change. I have tried to warn you about this before. And stop being so bloody jealous.

Anyway. The bloke taken out by the US was not a good man. But this is no way to go about things. You kill a big man in his own region and you'll reap the consequences. Stated without bias.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:32 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:36 PM
Don't tempt me, Nigel. I tend to ignore your faulty language but that can always change. I have tried to warn you about this before. And stop being so bloody jealous.

Go ahead. Any problems with my usage are minor, and accidental. (with the exception of deliberate misuse in song words). Your misuse seems to be deliberate, as you then try to justify it by claiming that it was 'whimsy', or that you were lying.
It is difficult to have a reasonable written conversation with someone who deliberately (or through pig-headed ignorance) ignores the standard usage of the language.

There is no jealousy involved. You have exhibited nothing of which I could possibly be jealous.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:46 PM

Egads My thoughts were almost word for word like Steve's words.
Nigel is a purist of sorts and might miss the nuance of wit at times but don't we all.
My dad was a political scientist so my take on the word scientist is more figurative. It is more of a synthesis of disciplines. Even economics has more 'science' in its modeling.

I told Nigel I sometimes like to make up language like James Joyce but after his literal take and extraordinary extrapolation, he was way 'off base' but I never called him 'out'. Well "You're OUT!" :^O

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:46 PM

Don't be silly, Nigel. It's way past your bedtime. See you in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:55 PM

"Any problems with my usage are minor, and accidental..."

Ah, but how would you know that? Most people who make grammatical or spelling errors don't know they're doing it. Secondly, your usage of that comma is incorrect. Just thought I'd mention it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:58 PM

Another ploy from the Steve Shaw handbook:
If you've no good answer to the argument being given make a condescending remark in the hope that others will think you've made a good argument.

Keep trying.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:07 PM

Ah, but how would you know that? Most people who make grammatical or spelling errors don't know they're doing it. Secondly, your usage of that comma is incorrect. Just thought I'd mention it... :-)

The comma is exactly where I intended it to be. I write to be understood, not to confuse. If I had spoken the sentence there would have been a break where the comma appears.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran beginsBS ti sss
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM

'Pure' BS still smells like crap just like regular BS.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:12 PM

You're not reading the thread, Nige, nor picking up on its sentiment. You have a choice. Either stick to the bloody point (which, in world terms, is actually quite important), or else I'll take you to pieces on your use of English. Your decision.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:17 PM

Nigel, my dear boy, you seriously need to look up the rules regarding commas and the use of the coordinating conjunction "and" with regard to what follows that "and." Now don't say I haven't warned you about this stuff. You're cruisin' for a bruisin'....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:18 PM

There is a current tendency today that is committed by people who should know better. It is called "the death of expertise'.

Keep expertise alive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:29 AM

Anyway back to the thread topic. When taking out a military leader in a third country this is clearly an act of was. In these days of alliances
it is the duty of the US president to at the least inform his allies if taking action that will likely involve his allies suffering retribution.
Taking out the Iranian number 2 is not quite the same as a gangland drive by shooting. That is why others have vetoed the same action in the past.
The bigger the action, the bigger the consequences.(for all)

Personally I think it was an act of outright stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:50 AM

If I were to agree with Mr Shaw, then we would both be wrong - new year subjunctive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:00 AM

I suspect The Orange Neanderthal is a believer in the old adage, “All’s fair in fighting Impeachment and Elections”.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:07 AM

Overseas hubris is a time-honoured way of getting yourself re-elected. It worked for Thatcher. Really??????

Thatcher was elected in May 1979 with a majority of 43
The Falklands conflict to retake a British Dependency was from ?2 April – 14 June 1982(With the accession of the United Kingdom to the European Communities in 1973, the Falkland Islands Dependencies became one of the EU Overseas Countries and Territories under the Treaty of Rome, a status upheld by all subsequent EU treaties.) (Good to see our french allies selling exocets to the enemy!)
Thatcher re elected 9th June 1983 with a landslide majority.
Thatcher re elected 11th June 1987. Another landslide.

Hardly hubris but most assuredly due to success in thrashing unions,and success in foreign relations and with the economy.
I suspect only your goodself would describe you as an educationalist, others would apply more honest descriptors.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:51 AM

I'm hoping for a symetrical attack on our #2 and end escalation.
Since thats not going to happen perhaps the Pentagon would be more relieved by an asymetrical attack on our #1.

I assume Republican Senators would not hold Trump respondsible even if his showdown vaporizes everyone on 5th ave.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 09:08 AM

We have the same issue as we had when civil war broke out in Syria. Everybody involved is a bad guy.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iretwbn begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

I wonder if Jesus and Mohammed were in a room by themselves if they could work it out or if they had any problems at all.
The only difference between the two is that Mohammed took the plea bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM

Good riddance to this persian murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

Well, Bonzo, whatever your take on summarily killing a chap outside the normal confines of due process, I think you'll soon see what a bad move this was. Iranian, by the way, not Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:39 PM

I prefer Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:43 PM

Tom Tugendhat :-

Few military commanders have had the freedom Qasem Soleimani has enjoyed. For the best part of 20 years, Soleimani’s actions have been Iran’s foreign policy. Regimes he has backed, militias he has supported and terrorist campaigns he has encouraged have become the strategy of the mullahs in Tehran.

Soleimani joined the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps at the time of the Iranian revolution. Founded to defend the regime, the IRGC is separate from the regular army, navy and air force. It answers to a different command structure and runs companies and businesses that enrich its generals. It has been at the vanguard of Iranian military action inside and outside the country to keep the dictatorship in power.

Over the years the IRGC have crushed uprisings at home using their Basij volunteer militias to assault protestors and terrify opponents from speaking out. Abroad they have expanded their operations. The special operations unit, named the Quds Force after the Arabic name for Jerusalem, is charged with conducting operations to bring about the Islamic revolution’s goals, including the destruction of Israel. That’s where Soleimani has excelled.

Since around 1998, Maj Gen Soleimani has led the Quds Force in expanding from their traditional alliances with Hezbollah and others and used Iraq and Afghanistan to develop capabilities he would later go on to perfect in Syria. In all those struggles he has used three principle means that our own forces would recognise – supplying weapons, partnering with local forces and bringing specialist skills.

In Afghanistan, these partnerships were far from ideological. The Taliban, a Sunni religious cult, almost went to war with Iran in 2001 but only five years later, Iranian weapons were turning up in weapons caches in Helmand. The Quds Force shared skills too. Over the years, Afghan insurgents used increasingly professional shaped-charges to pierce armour and kill British, American, and other Nato servicemen and women. The intelligence trail was clear – the parts and knowledge came from Tehran.

In Yemen the same unit supplied rockets that have been falling on Saudi Arabia and bringing death villagers in the mountains. The Houthi rebellion has largely been a proxy war by Tehran’s military against their Sunni rivals in Riyadh with Yemeni civilians paying the highest price.

On Israel’s borders katyusha rockets that have killed civilians and been hidden amongst a Lebanese population terrified into silence. Both sides of the conflict have suffered but perhaps Lebanon most of all. In recent years thousands of Lebanese have been pressed into Hezbollah’s militias to fight in Syria. Many have been killed.

Skills transfer and terrorist training was not limited to the region but have seen groups spreading around the world. The 2012 attack on Israelis in Bulgaria, the assassinations of Arab nationalists 2015 and 2017 in the Netherlands and the failed bombing campaign in France in 2018 all point to a willingness to use any means to spread terror around the world. In 2015 this reached the UK.

Hezbollah-connected groups were found to have collected three tonnes of ammonia nitrate explosives in north west London and though the planned operation never took place, the warning that we here are not immune from Soleimani’s brand of foreign policy was clear. Even after we signed the nuclear agreement with Iran, the Quds Force saw us as a target.

The question now is what this means for Iran and what it means for us.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei’s rapid appointment of Soleimani’s deputy as his replacement masks the hole left in Iranian leadership. Despite his long addiction to opium he must know that Soleimani is irreplaceable. Over the past decades Iran’s strategy has been the general and his mythical status shows it.

Through personal relationships he has picked political leaders, backed their armies and funded their campaigns. If Bashar al Assad still sits in Damascus, it’s not because of his own skill, we saw how useless a commander he was in the early days of the revolution, but because Soleimani willed it. It is unlikely the IRGC will be able to find another leader like him.

Now Britain and others have a chance to reach out to former enemies and partners and point out that era defined by one man can end. The death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese and more can stop. The policy embodied in one man can end. But that requires some choices not only by the Iranian dictatorship, but many others in the region. This is a chance to change direction, let’s hope we take it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:33 PM

The "facts" of the case the Trump apologists claim are that they have "intelligence" that Soleimani was planning assaults on Americans or American installations. That can be said of any day in his life over the last two decades. Remember the last time GOP insisted there was "intelligence" and started the war against Saddam Hussein? This has the same kind of stink.

News outlets are referring to this as an assassination. Soleimani was an easy target for Trump and whoever on his staff suggested it, because he lived in the open, he was a government official who did horrible things as an Iranian military officer over the last 20-30 years, but he was part of that machine. Bin Laden and al-Baghdadi were always in hiding and aiming their campaigns at civilians. Soleimani probably should have been tried at the Hague, if it came to that.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:04 PM

Yes, a horrid man. As I said, everybody involved is a baddie. But there is more context than you're admitting to, and don't get me wrong, I still think that he's a baddie. But he was operating in his own region, unlike the man who ordered his assassination. He sponsored Hamas and Hezbollah, whether you like it or not two setups formed in reaction to US/Israeli aggression in the region. Historical, checkable fact, lest trolls wish to call me antisemitic. Saddam, Al Baghdadi, Bin Laden and even Gaddafi were all bad men. Not one of them ever brought to trial. Soleimani was not in the same league. He was a powerful man but not a leader. He was warmly embedded in his own nation, which believes that the US is besieging them. Yes, there is a stink, and it behoves us to reject everything that Trump propagandises about this. Killing this man was a stupid move. There will be successors who are no better.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

I really don't know why we need a government, the Leftwaffe here know all the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel for the ordinary Persian people.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

the Leftwaffe. Magic!!

I do like a little light relief in a serious thread.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:01 PM

I'm willing to wager that Mrrzy, whose father was killed in the terrorist car bombing of the US embassy in Beirut orchestrated by Soleimani, isn't wringing her hands over his "martyrdom".

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:06 PM

Perhaps there should be another Berlin Conference" - this time to car up Persia!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

There have been many past US administrations that could have taken a shot at him, but didn't, because there is a whole bunch of baggage that comes along with assassination. I included context, Steve, there was no "not admitting to" part of it. He was a hero in his own country and seen as evil be everyone he plotted against. But he did it from a political position embedded within his nation, he wasn't like Bin Laden, et al, who were pariahs everywhere they went. Trump pulled this stunt because the generals who presented a large number of options to address the embassy assault included it as the most extreme option to make the other suggestions sound more reasonable. They were apparently shocked that he chose this one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:40 PM

"He was a hero in his own country..."

Not according to most of the Iranians posting on Twitter - they are celebrating his demise. They also consider the regime ruling over them as foreign and are appealing for its end and a return to democracy and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:07 PM

That's exactly what I was trying to say, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM

A smarter person would weigh the repercussion of assassination against maintaining a messed up status quo. Trump decided to poke something snarly with a stick. I have no clue what the Iranians will do, but it won't be good. It would make more sense for them to do something personal against him (well, it's not the country, it's Trump and his collection of sycophant assholes), and avoid war, but who knows what's going to happen