BS: UK Politics - Another Try

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 09:37 PM

The story must be true, Jim Carroll; if it had been made up, wouldn't the "corpse" have rolled off at an ale house he used to frequent, the "punch-line" being fairly obvious? Had someone made a song on the incident, I wonder whether that very obvious change would have occurred at some point during the hypothetical song's history, as it was "mediated" from one singer to another down through the years. Just an immediate, not especially political, thought. Self-isolating ABCD. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 04:55 AM

Pretty sure it is true - it's treated as such around here
Incidentally, the wall adjacent to the smithy is spattered with bullet holes from 'The Canada Cross Massacre' when the Black and Tans fired into a crowd which had gathered to celebrate the release of a couple of Republican prisoners from Limerick Jail
The centenary of the event was due to be commemorated in a few months time but that's doubtful now, I should think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 05:56 AM

Sorry, Backwoodsman but I do want to respond to this point Iains made on another thread. By way of mitigation, it is the point I am responding to, rather than Iains per se.

"Why drag politics into a national emergency?"

The virus is certainly an international as well as national emergency. And, yes, Johnson's team is following the scientific advice. But the way in which they respond is inevitably a political response. You can be advised by the scientists that groups more than a certain size should not meet. Whether you simply recommend that or enforce it is a political decision. That people should work from home rather than go to the office is scientific advice, but how much financial support you give from the centre and how this is shared between supporting businesses and the individuals who work there are political decisions.

Politics in this situation is inevitable: *how* you act on the scientific advice you receive is itself political, not just *whether*

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 06:18 AM

A sobering though
If Trump's America gets to a cure first they with inevitably attempt to corner the market on it for profit
'Free medicine' has always been regarded as tantamount to 'Communism' in the US
A sobering thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 06:41 AM

Sobering indeed. There's been a deal of adverse criticism here about people buying up hand-sanitiser and the like then selling some at greatly increased prices. Isn't that kind of speculation exactly what commodity dealers &c. do? Buy low, sell high.

I'd wondered some four years ago just how various centenaries might be commemorated in Ireland. Maybe not quite so many re-enactments.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 06:47 AM

”Sorry, Backwoodsman but I do want to respond to this point Iains made on another thread.”

No reason to apologise to me, DMcG - as was pointed out to me in a sequence of unpleasant PMs recently (not from anyone on this thread), I’m not a Moderator.

FWIW, I have no personal issue with anyone who responds to anyone else, as you invariably do, with reason and civility. My request in my OP was made in the hope that others would refrain from reacting to flame-bait (and yes, I’m fully aware that I’ve done my share, but I’ve adopted a policy of ignoring the flame-baiter and, for me at least, it works).

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

DmcG. I agree that in a democracy the response to any crisis is political and there will be controversy over the speed of reaction and type of reaction. But it can be clearly demonstrated that as the science has ramped up the threat so government has ramped up the response.
As I said on the other thread the figures we have all quoted do not paint an accurate picture. The data is surrounded by caveats, that is a given, but it is all that is available as a planning tool.
I would argue the real figure to be following is the rate of infection per head in the population.
There were complaints we did not shut schools down fast enough. Ireland closed theirs one week ago, along with colleges and universities.
However Ireland has one person in 17000 infected, the UK one in 26000.
There are reports Spain is flying drones to enforce the curfew, their infection rate is one in 4000.Italy on shut down with one in 2000.
As a gauge of proportionate response the metric of per head infected seems a more accurate way of looking at the problem, as the raw figures can only be meaningful when considered in terms of the total population.
Sweden is not mentioned yet the infection rate there is one in 6700.
The UK government updates infection number at 2pm daily.The mortality figures arrive later.
You can nitpick the tory response to your hearts content,but would you seriously have greater confidence if corbyn was in the driver's seat?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 08:21 AM

While I agree with Iains about the proportionality of any response, it is pointless backing up the argument with relative incidences in the various countries unless those countries are equal in the level of testing for the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM

Nigel am assuming those tested are sick enough to be requiring medical care. Sadly this is a situation where assumptions have to be made. The alternative is to do nothing, and watch perhaps 1/2 million die if assuming a mortality rate equivalent to seasonal flu,or 1/4 million if half as deadly.
According to the CDC "The virus that causes COVID-19 seems to be spreading easily and sustainably in the community (“community spread”) in some affected geographic areas."
China seems to have brought the crisis under control. BUT that is onlt the first wave. Will there be a second or third wave?
Serious questions but definitive anwswers are but constructions based on projections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 08:43 AM

Quite so, Nigel. I think it needs to be stressed how much uncertainty there is in these figures. We cannot actually know what infections per head of population is. We can know infections per tested person and try to guess the total population but a guess is all it is. And it is not even that a high ingextion per test is bad: that could show a relatively good tracing of potential infections, whereas a low rate could mean you are testing too many people who could not have been infected. If you like, is the testing focused or unfocused?

Add in that we have seen changes of 40% infections in a single day and your rate could almost double overnight.

The figures may well be the best we can get for planning purposes, but the level of uncertainty in them is huge.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

Corbyn wouldn't prioritise the wealthy and "important" members of society, as is likely to happen at present
Can't help but notice how you people duck and dive around that fact while you make political capital out of this emergency
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 11:12 AM

Educated consensus seems to be established that the general public wearing face masks
is a pointless false sense of security..

But some 'experts' are still recommending such protection,
and news reports show global wearing of makeshift scarves, tea towels, and hankies, etc..

Wrapping our heads in cling film and breathing through a snorkel...???

Is there actually a serious definitive conclusive scientific/governmental decision on this matter...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 11:18 AM

yes I quickly realised, wrong thread.. but they have got a bit blurred together
when the 2 tabs are open at the same time...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM

FACT OF LIFE - we are stuck with boris and dom's regime for the time being...

Labour need to become an effective opposition,
or if the situation drastically worsens,
partners in an emergency coalition government...???

WE need a govt that can do the decent right job for ALL of us in this crisis,
and beyond...

Things could get so bad old enemies will need to fight side by side together
against this new common adversary...

[just like in a hollywood space aliens invasion movie...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 03:23 PM

C'mon PFR
He's just equated supplying medicine for all with Communism
You couldn't get a declaration of a shitty unequal society more clearer than that - hoist on his own petard, I would suggest
Don't rats always go for the jugular when cornered ??

"little jimmie "
And the inventiveness - never been called that before - since the last time
What a tosser - and he's looking for a rise from terrible Tommy !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 03:31 PM

Mod - NO.. that deletion is absolutely unacceptable...!!!!

Jim's post deserved best of the week award,
Iains should be left as a stark reminder of what he is...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 04:51 PM

What you are forgetting is that we are always told only what they want us to know, no matter which political party is in power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 03:19 AM

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 05:04 AM

In which case, why vote !!!
When someone promises something completely different, as Corbyn did, you take a chance
It worked a charm in the last election here in Ireland and the electorate kicked the old usual lot right up the arses
The established parties have combined to attempt to keep the people's choice out of power - it remains to be seen if they win when things finally sort themselves out
At least nobody can say we didn't try instead of moaning "you can't trust any of them" and doing S F A - that changes nothing and they win anyway
I'm proud to have chosen to live in among people who stand up for themselves while keeping their humanity intact
We get regular calls from our neighbours asking if we are ok
I understand from my sister that the same id happening in Liverpool ('the 33rd County of Ireland')
Jim Carroo

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 05:05 AM

Forgot to add :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 09:16 AM

Labour’s leadership election has become much more subdued due to the Coronavirus outbreak, with their announcement event (due on April 4) being cancelled; however the zeal of Rebecca Long-Bailey’s hard left supporters hasn’t softened. Messages sent last night in the ‘LDN for RLB’ WhatsApp group – used to organise Labour members campaigning for Rebecca for Leader – show Long-Bailey’s activists calling for a “Real Labour Jehad to bring equality for all”.
An unfortunate campaign slogan… (That means an extra 5 years in the wilderness)
The group’s admin info links to the official campaigns guide setting out the groups’ guidelines, asking participants to both stay on topic, and be respectful and tolerant. Some of Becky’s fans clearly don’t understand the rules…
Imagine the squealing were a Tory to say something similar!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 09:24 AM

Talking of squealing.


"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

From Animal Farm by George Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 10:12 AM

Must be labour suffering from Corbyn-19!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 10:21 AM

"Jehad"

Must be far right infiltrators running covert spoiler campaigns to undermine Labour...

A far more plausible explanation...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 10:23 AM

Ps.. your wicked cruel post from yesterday may have been deleted,
but nothing vanishes forever off the internet..

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM

A very interesting POV from Another Angry Voice. To anyone other than a brainwashed working-class Tory, or a very rich person reading it, it has the ring of truth...

”In 2008 the Westminster political establishment class decided to keep the bloated monster of speculative capitalism alive with vast bailouts at the public expense.

The fact that capitalism required such an extraordinary dose of 'socialism for the rich' should have been the wake up call we needed that capitalism doesn't work.

Instead of demanding something better, the British public decided to elect the Tories, who decided to load the cost of this 'socialism for the rich' onto the poor and ordinary through a decade of ruinous austerity fanaticism, whilst lavishing the bankers who caused the crisis with one tax break and handout after another.

We didn't just return to business as usual, we sped up the process of increasing inequality, transferring wealth upwards, and handing ever larger slices of the public sphere over to private capitalist profiteers.

The whole thing was bound to come crashing down again at some point, because it's literally insane to keep on transferring ever larger proportions of the economy's wealth and resources to the greediest people in society, to use for their own advantage.

This kind of hard-right neoliberal economic extremism leaves us weak, and unprepared, with public services in chaos, spare capacity slashed to the absolute minimum, and millions living on the absolute brink of survival before the crisis even comes along.

The virus was just the straw that broke the camel's back, after years of mistreatment and neglect.

When this chaos is over we'll need to ask ourselves whether we want to continue down the same path again (austerity extremism, devastating public service cuts, wage repression, soaring inequality, privatisation mania ...) or change direction so we're actually economically healthy and much better prepared the next time a major crisis comes along.

And you damned well know which of these directions will be favoured by the Tories, the corporate elites who fund them, and the mainstream media hack pack who propagandise for them, don't you?

This means that those of us who want something better will have an almighty fight on our hands to stop them from opportunistically using the coronavirus crisis as an excuse to poison us with yet another deadly dose of their toxic neoliberal economic quack medicine.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 10:53 AM

"Labour’s leadership election has become much more subdued due to the Coronavirus outbreak,"
Arrangements to 'stand on our own two feet" have actually ground to a halt TBTG and by the time they are ready to resume the economy will be in such a state that it will have to apply for wheelchair assistance to go to the bog, never mind 'make Britain Great again'
It was a Labour Government with mildly progressive Socialist policies who cleared up the debris and began to make Britain 'a land fit for heroes   to live in' - I can't see the Johnson/Patel/Cumings triumvirate coming anywhere near to wanting to do that - can anybody ?
They were a friggin' joke before this began
HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 11:43 AM

PULLING TOGETHER FOR THE GREATER GOOD
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Pulling together for the common good means letting the PM follow the advice given by his experts and not be deflected by all those sniping.
Now Boris too is closing the bars, hopefully more successfully than Ireland where one was raided by the guards last night and found everyone had crept in through the back door and were partying like no tomorrow. .

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 02:04 PM

The majority of British citizens are either too selfish and stupid, or not,
depending on if they are voting for your side at elections..

But in times of national crisis, I think we can all agree..
yes they really are...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 04:03 PM

"Pulling together for the common good means "
Then it doesn't mean a posh hotel sacking all its staff and evicting them in the middle of a severe crisis - which is why you choose to ignore it
Your Pro-Booris rhetoric is somewhat reminiscent of that used to fight for a New Germany - sme leaders different times
The man is a moron and he is hardly beloved by his people as his earlier counterpart was
Boorish has taken so long to take the advice of his experts (or ignore it) that it's hard to know what he's going to ignore next
Jim Carroll

Independant   4 days ago
Horseracing to continue across UK behind closed doors amid coronavirus outbreak
Decision means the Grand National may yet go ahead as planned though officials will monitor the coronavirus case with a view to making a decision on the April meet at Aintree
Jack de Menezes @JackdeMenezes

Horseracing in the United Kingdom will go behind closed doors until the end of the month after the British Horseracing Authority (BHA) confirmed meets across England, Scotland and Wales will continue to go ahead without spectators.
A meeting on Monday of the Racecourse Association, The Horsemen’s Group and the BHA saw racecourses across Britain shut to the public from Tuesday, with Taunton and Wetherby set to be the first venues forced to close their doors after Kelso decided to trial the move on Monday.
But while the ban does not yet include the Grand National meet at Aintree, which gets underway on Thursday 2 April with the main event on Saturday 4 April, the government’s expectation that the worst of the coronavirus outbreak is yet to come leaves the Festival facing the prospect of being ran behind closed doors.
The move comes after more than 150,000 racegoers attended last week’s Cheltenham Festival, which attracted widespread criticism despite organisers following government guidelines not to close their doors to the public.
A statement from the BHA read: “Racing industry leaders have confirmed a plan to continue racing behind closed doors from tomorrow. Any fixtures that take place in England, Wales and Scotland, initially until the end of March, will take place without spectators and with restrictions on the number of attendees.”
Watch more
Europe is not prepared for coronavirus, doctors warn- live
The decision not to fully cancel meets is to enable those who depend on the horse racing industry as their main source of income to be supported during what will be extremely difficult months, with planned cards for every day across the remainder of the month.
The statement added: “The intention is for scheduled race meetings to take place wherever possible. However, the situation is very fluid at present and decisions may have to be made to cancel meetings. Every effort will be made to notify customers and the betting industry at the earliest opportunity.
“With race meetings due to happen every day, the aim is to agree a programme that is sustainable, in the light of possible staff absences, including in critical roles, in order to protect industry staff and support the wider effort to free up critical public services.”
France has taken a stronger stance in their action by suspending all horse racing until 15 April at the very least, while bookmakers’ are predicting huge losses over the next few months – though the BHA’s decision does at least ensure races will still go ahead and help betting shops to remain open.
The chief executive of the BHA, Nick Rust, said:“Racecourses and racing yards are embedded in their local communities and we are acutely aware of our responsibilities to protect public health.
“The restrictions we are putting in place to close racing to spectators and limit attendees will reduce demand on public services. We also have a range of measures in place designed in response to the government’s guidance on public health and we will continue to update these as appropriate.
“We acknowledge that today’s decision will also impact on local businesses, especially hotels and restaurants, who are struggling at this time. We are following the government’s advice to strike a balance between protecting public health and maintaining business activity and will continue to do so. We thank our customers and staff for their support"

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 05:39 PM

I thought Johnson really fumbled one of the questions badly. One reporter said it was Mother's Day on Sunday and was the PM advising people not to visit. He needed to say "I am afraid so. Use the phone, use Skype, or Messenger or any of the video tools. But this is serious and however hard this is, we need to keep our distances for their sake as much as anyone else's." Instead he ducked, and fumbled, and then said he would be visiting his - precisely against all the advice he was given.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 06:05 PM

Expect a few more fumbles. Working under the pressure as Boris is does not make for 100% reasoned responses. Even Churchill screwed up on occasions,but back then it was not picked up and dissected to the nth degree by the waiting vultures of the MSM.

How would Comrade corbyn be fairing had we the abject misfortune to have him as leader? Those 2 grade E A Levels and an abandoned degree in Trade Union Studies from a Poly hardly boast a towering intellect.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 06:51 PM

How much of the pressure that the NHS is under with the coronavirus crisis is due to the years of underfunding? Little wonder that the government is now panicking. NHS funding will be in the forefront for years to come and when the last 10 years comes under scrutiny this shower will be shown up for the damage they have done.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 07:24 PM

By taxing the rich to fund the various macro economic interventions for COVID_19, our government can, at the same time, level the revoltingly unequal society that free-market capitalism has produced. My poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Global Regulationism"

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 03:28 AM

I do wonder what the response would have been if Corbyn had won and issued word-for-word Sunak's budget statement of 20/3/2020.

Actually, I don't. I am pretty certain what it would have been.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 03:56 AM

The left want to change a dangerously unfair and unequal society and those who that imbalance advantges or doesn't effect, don't - it never gets more difficult than that
All politicians make mistakes - that's not the problem - it's the overall intention of political parties that they should be judged on
Johnso is a caricature educated fool - the stuff that gave satirists like 'The Establishment their BREAD AND BUTTER
It's when that satire becomes a form of Governance that you rialise that society is on the skids
The lower echelons, gofers and arse-lickers of that group (like our friend) are only the foot-soldiers, usually willing victims themselves (but not quite as badly off),
They support the idea of putting a price tag on medical treatment during a pandemic, or sending fire-survivors to sleep in the local park rather than allow them to 'defile' private property, they make human tragedy a macho display of inhumanity
THey'ret the ones hat you really have to watch - it's they who'll come kicking your door down to drag you off to be 'educated' hould their bosses feel it necessary
I've become a fann of WW2 'occupation' films since we got 'Talking Pictures' o our TV - you can watch 'em in action most nights nowadays
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 10:25 AM

btw.. the deletion I protested about 19 Mar 20 - 03:31 PM..

Jim's heartfelt post and iains's vicious reply should be framed here for posterity,
not censored..
Forever condemning iains with his own malevolent words...

---

Final words, as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

"Wot are you doin then, playing tiddleywinks?"
Tellin it as it is Iains and you damn well know it given your peference of leaving survivors of a horrendous fire to sleep
in the local park and taking the piss out of Corbyn for showing your concern over beds
From your own mouth "try running that one past the shareholders! Get real!"
We live under a system where the only guarantee of decent care is wealth, and you and yours are among the most
vociferous in supporting that
You use a tragedy to support that shitty situation by making political capital by denigrating those who would change it -
you would even deprive us of our rights to milk humour out of the situation - I'm surprised someone as level-headed
as Donuel should join you in this
I have suffered from chronic bronchitis for most of my life and am of the age that puts me slap in the red-zone in this
situation
Pat has long term heart problems and is of a similar age
Both of us are in the economic bracket that puts us a long way down the queue when it comes to a society that
prioritises the wealthy - both of us stand little chance of survival should we catch the Dreaded Lurgi
That sort of thing makes you acutely aware of your own situation making what I write not your scoring political points
for the extreme right, as is your wont, but frighteningly real
Nor tiddly-winks - but very real for people like us
Jim Carroll


Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: Iains - PM
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 02:05 PM

Well little jimmie we live in a democracy under the rule of law. This allows no place for your special kind of stupidity
when it comes to sorting out the problems of society. You constantly bring up the same tired old arguments that a two
year old would condemn for abject idiocy and when they are ripped apart by cold logic you resort to to your usual
insults and then appeals to mods to ban people.
This forum was a much cleaner place without your toxic presence. And dont bleat about how old you are. I am not
interested as I am in the same demographic, so appeals to me for the sympathy vote are pissing in the wind. When
you present arguments that are halfassed sensible you will receive reasoned responses. We will await the first with interest.
Communism does not work in a democracy neither does rabid socialism.
That is why the allotment man keeps losing. Most of us have managed to figure this out but sadly some have not the
capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics - Another Try
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 03:08 PM

Iains - Did mudcat advertise for a toxic sociopath...???

An excellent presentation, you get the job...