BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 06:06 AM

I agree Interpol existed long before the EU, but the databases, the content and the technology on which they run bear little if any relationship to what existed before the EU. It is not the standard of information that existed prior to the EU that the UK is seeking access to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

As I said wriggle wriggle wriggle. Let us have my actual words with the context of the post instead of your continual distortions. You are a disgrace! Put up or shut up. It seems a simple enough request to me. Obviously a bridge too far for you. Some might reasonably wonder why


DMCcG Interpol existed long before the EU, as did Nato. They served/serve the equivalent functions you allude to. Some things are mutually of benefit. No doubt if the Germans are pigheaded we can bring Bletchley Park back online in a thrice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 05:32 AM

According to reporting of a leaked German account of the Brexit negotiations, the UK is determined not to ask for an extension of the transition period, and also wants access to a number of the security databases run by Europol and others. The Germans, in particular, are strongly opposed to granting such access.

We need to remember these are opening stances in the negotiation, and therefore not necessarily where either side expects to end up.    Nevertheless, the UK will undoubtedly be seen as following another 'having cake eating it' approach, wanting some of the benefits of EU membership while remaining outside it.

A statement from the EU on the proceedings is expected on Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM

Incidentally
The only time political views should ever become an issue on these threads is when they
(a) directly effect other members - i.e. the effect some people's vies have had on Irish and muslim people not being welcome here
(b) When they breach the incitement to hatred laws of the countries of members involved - no forum should ever be used as a way around those laws - there are far to many sites on the internet that already do that as it is
Iains is not the only one to fall into this category which has had a detrimental effect to the image of this forum
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM

I   have a question for everyone;
Is changing the title of a link from
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1271505/boris-johnson-brexit-latest-update-coronavirus-covid-19-john-curtice

to

EVEN THE WORST BREXIT BUMWIPES REALISE THIS
really designed to spread peace and tranquillity or cause maximum offense to one of the opposite political persuasion?

Do you think deliberately creating flame bait is the way to go?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM

"OK, so we remove one person because they disagree with you in a 'robust' manner. "
I was hoping you weren't going to fall into this trap so soon Barbry
Iains problem has never been his politics - it has been the effect his behavour has been on others in souring up most discussion he has ever taken part in with personal abuse
I once tried to stop him by gathering his abuses into groups and putting them up for public view - 20/30 at a time on several threads
I was accused of objecting to his politics and nothing was done - he continues and will do so while people defend him on the grounds of "censorship"
Go wash yo mouf out - please - personal abuse has never been "robust" - when done on line anonymously it is hate mail
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 02:52 AM

I was there with the anti Whitehouse and Longford too PFR but I would defend their right to say what they believe. I would not defend anyone calling those who disagree with them idiots or worse, deliberately causing trouble and constantly repeating the words of a known agitator. Nor would I defend anyone involved in trying to subvert the democratic process by closing down debates with these tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 10:58 PM

Steve - Some of us have more stubborn principles about ceretain things other folks don't..

One of my biggies is anti censorship and banning..
If that defines me as some kind of libertarian lefty..
simple enough.. innit...!!!

Remember I became an adult during punk rock,
when the Mary Whitehouse brigade were trying to censor and ban
everything we wanted to hear and see...
..and they succeeded far too much, and got away with it for decades...


It's not that I like or want to keep Iains per se..
But in the absence of any better quality right wing mudcat sparring partners,
he's all we got, and'll have to do..

If only we could swap him for other rightys more stimulating
to debate with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 08:42 PM

Bravo. Seconded. Even tho' pfr don't agree...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 08:01 PM

just give it a go - give the troll a break for a few weeks. please. lets see how we get on without him . this shit has been going on for years ffs. it's ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 07:52 PM

My bad - fed the troll.

Not at all,Stilly- a particularly clear analysis of this ludicrous situation.

Would there were more like you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 07:50 PM

btw.. If I read your green comment correctly...???

I've already suggested that any mudcatters plaguing mods with PMs,
secretly complaining about and demanding that other mudcatters be punished..
Well, they themselves should be threatened with suspension for bothering mods
with constant petty complaints...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 07:41 PM

Barb'ry - s'ok.. I know you are one of us Brits..

..and very welcome from our point of view..

If I'm ever being a bit sarky about our American mods,
I'm sure by now they know, I'm not entirely serious in any complaining I indulge in..
Though my underlying points are usually sensible and valid...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:35 PM

I'll swear that apostrophe was there when I posted. Oh, hello...What's this grease doing on my reading specs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:33 PM

I don't see that you did. And we should be able to discuss stuff without always walking on eggshells. Thats honest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:30 PM

My bad - fed the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:26 PM

How do you know, Barb'ry? That's just received wisdom, which, along with victim-blaming, is a rather easy fallback for you mods when the more difficult decisions (such as sacking idiots) evade you. As I've always said to Maggie, I'm on your side. You have this shite to put up with and no-one's paying you. The recent history is that Iains stepped in bigtime, like the big girl's blouse he is, when Teribus was sacked. But he was here before that happened and was already a complete pain in the arse. I don't see anyone here who is waiting with baited breath to step into a sacked Iains' shoes. So basically, and I know that you're a lusty soul who suffers no fools gladly and who can take flak, er, don't give me that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Barb'ry
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:12 PM


OK, so we remove one person because they disagree with you in a 'robust' manner. Who then comes along to fill the vacuum? Because come they most certainly will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 06:07 PM

So you know what to do, then, Maggie...?

If she doesn't I'm sure Helen can guide her to true enlightenment.

And why the one individual - Iains - pushing every button he can think of, to cause dissension"

having been identified, documented, and acknowledged is tolerated, protected and encouraged is one of the great cosmic mysteries of the age.

Greg F, where are you when we need you???

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 05:35 PM

So you know what to do, then, Maggie...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM

But there is one individual - Iains - pushing every button he can think of, to cause dissension.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:47 PM

Pfr I think if you look at my responses and what they responded to then you must admit that you are probably talking to the wrong person.
A   position can be stated in several different ways. If deliberately stated or titled in such a way as to cause   maximum   offence to those holding a counter view there can be no surprise if the perpetrator is mocked. Act like a child - be treated as a child is   my view. Check any of my posts and see what previous posting triggered the response I gave. There are few innocents on this forum, especially among those constantly claiming to be so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:26 PM

He must mean that nice Mr Mogg, stalwart of the Brexiteers, a major player in the ERG, who as soon as Brexit was on the horizon moved his Somerset Capital Management company to Dublin so that is could remain with Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:56 PM

Iains - but you well know we are all stuck in the same boat of having to appease mods
with goody two shoes non insulting behaviour and language...

As tiresome as that is for any of us used to traditional robust British
piss taking humour...

The overseas mods are not so familiar with our kind of blokey wind up banter...

Personally, I'd like our politics threads to be permitted to continue,
even if we must be bowdlerized..[ooer missus..]..

Goody Two shoes is the last thing I am. I'm also not an 'overseas mod' - if I were I think this whole thread would have been closed. I'd like this thread to be able to continue and I don't care about language or behaviour but the people being 'spoken' to certainly get fed up with being insulted and are more than happy to let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

I tailor   my   response to whatever triggered it. I would have thought that was abundantly clear.

Serious questions deserve serious answers   Flippant comments do not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:07 PM

Bollocks, I say.. to that particular Iains persona...

Not for any content you may be trying to express,
but the negative disagreeable way you chose to express it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 02:44 PM

EVEN THE WORST BREXIT BUMWIPES REALISE THIS (I presume you are attempting to describe the victorious Tory party that has such stalwarts as the esteemed Mr Rees Mogg among its cadre of distuinguished members) A poor loser,or what?

Unless the winning Tory party wish to change the law we are out at the end of the year. With a deal, or no deal. Just imagine how much worse the situation would be right now had Corbyn and his 5 ring circus won the election.
You also have to bear in mind that should we be brainndead enough to seek an extension the EU will hold the UK to ransom as it tries to fill its depleted coffers.
I suspect any eurobonds that may be sold will be worthless 5 years down the road. The latest wheeze is to call them corona bonds - I can see why. They will end uo being extremely toxic to anyone daft enough to buy
them, to say "invest" in them is a bit of a contradiction in terms.
The sooner we are away from their piggy little clutches the better.
Rule Britannia I say

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 02:38 PM

"We left at the end of January."
Technically, yes, of course we did
The CONSEQUENCES HAVE YET TO BE FACED

It wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a change of heart when this kicks in alongside the grim financial consequences of the Virus becomes clear
Are people really going to dance to Trump's Tune now he's fully exposed himself as a certifiable liability
I hate to think my country has sun as low as that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 01:50 PM

it has happened, Jim. We left at the end of January. what remains is the future trading relationship. As I have said before the same thing to so is to extend to the end of 2021 but I fully expect the government to stick to Dec 2020.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 12:58 PM

"are bored to death with the over complexities"
I very much doubt if it's now going to happen - (not within may of our lifetimes anyway the way the pandemic is being mishandled)
Economic predictions throughout the world are such that any nation taking such a leap in the dark such as this need to be out of their skull
None of us are going to be left with feet to stand on including prospective trading partners
EVEN THE WORST BREXIT BUMWIPES REALISE THIS

Every cloud hopefully
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 12:26 PM

It seems right wingers who moan most about EU bureaucracy,
are also the folks most keenly interested in wallowing in it...!!!???

Most of the rest of us, whichever way we voted on brexit,
are bored to death with the over complexities
of all this fathomless red tape officialese...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 11:49 AM

it's a mistake (often a deliberate one to treat the EU as a monolith group
However it was the EU gave out   the invites to join the PPE and ventilator purchase group
From European Commission
DG Health and Food Safety website

The joint procurement of medical countermeasures is included as an article in the 2013 decision on serious cross-border threats to health. As an implementing action of this Decision, the Joint Procurement Agreement (JPA) was adopted on 10 April 2014. To date, the JPA has been signed by 23 EU countries. The Commission launched the procedure to prepare an agreement for the joint procurement of vaccines in the case of a future pandemic.
The JPA enables countries to procure pandemic vaccines and other medical countermeasures and equipment as a group, rather than individually. Through the JPA, any EU country can make a proposal to others to procure medical countermeasures together. A minimum of four Member States, with agreement from the Commission, is needed to launch a joint procurement procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 11:02 AM

" been arguing that the EU is particularly efficient."
As a group of Capitalist countries driven by profit, efficiency is left to the individual countries - it's a mistake (often a deliberate one to treat the EU as a monolith group
It's benefits lie in mutual co-operation, which never suited an ex-empire that couldn't be in charge of
IRELAND did extremely well out of membership
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 09:30 AM

I for one have never been arguing that the EU is particularly efficient.

The government should have been pursuing PPE via the EU andindependently from overseas and from local providers. There is no reason at all why pursuing one means you do not pursue the others. Nor does it matter too much in itself whether the EU has yet delivered. Of course, we would prefer it if it did, but if there were a large supply in the offing you should seek it, wherever it comes from, even if it takes several months to arrive. That is actually the logic that has been used for ventilators. If Dyson could deliver many times the number that our domestic resources can, it is worth trying to get them to do that even if it takes months to arrive. (Not that I think Dyson can, but that is the logic.) Meanwhile, of course, you get as much domestic and other supply as you can, and if the EU or Dyson never delivers, well, you are no worse off.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 08:36 AM

I gave up reading this thread a few posts back - I'm to busy with real life problems..
I'll try again later..

What I will say now is this..

I try my best to show basic respect and read every word of the few BS threads I follow..
But I've told Iains this before, now I mean it..
His copy and paste posts are too long and boring to read,
with such little reward at the end of the tedium..
So now I can't even be bothered speed read scanning them any more...

This is the final straw - but now you boast it as a virtue...!!!

"Guido did a little digging on one of the journalists that wrote the opinion piece on Boris"

That is no different to the tactics of the BnPs old "RED WATCH" intimidation website..

"We know who you are, where you work, and where you live..
We can get you anytime......"

This supports suspicions of who guidos little helpers really are...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 05:36 AM

A taste of sanity (surprisingly from the guardian)
To Date nothing has been delivered

Since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, the EU has launched four calls for tender for medical equipment and supplies. It invited companies to supply gloves and surgical gowns on 28 February, personal protective equipment (PPE) for eye and respiratory protection on 15 March and medical ventilators and respiratory equipment on the same day. A final call to companies to supply laboratory equipment, including testing kits, was made on 19 March. The total value of PPE being purchased is around €1.5bn (£1.3bn). The EU ceiling for purchases of ventilators is €790m. The first call for tender of PPE on 28 February failed because of a lack of suitable suppliers. It was relaunched on 12 March. Since then all four calls for tender have successfully found companies willing to supply the goods to the scale and quality required. The timeline for delivery varies. Some of the PPE is expected imminently. There is a longer time frame for deliveries of ventilators with the EU warning member states that it could take as long as a year for all the machines to arrive.

So much for much vaunted EU efficiency (and what were we arguing over?)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 05:25 AM

In so far as there is a pattern to that, Dave, it is that when people are asked what happened when they weren't necessarily prepared for the question they say it was political, and then it is subsequently 'clarified' that it was not.   

Make of that what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 05:02 AM

So, according to the article, The prime minister's spokesperson had initially said the government had not taken part because the U.K. was “no longer a member [of the EU]” and was “making our own efforts”. Then Downing Street claimed it had missed the deadline. Then there was a "communication problem". Then we had not joined because we were not invited. Now, in spite of having missed the deadline and not being invited, we have joined the scheme but the EU are not sending us PPE anyway...

All in the same article. WTF is going on? You would think a group of seasoned liars with the liar in chief presiding would be able to get the story straight. And people wonder why I say they are not to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:56 AM

Here is the key passage in McDonald’s retraction letter, despite the gruniard repeating the lie again today:


Unfortunately, due to a misunderstanding, I inadvertently and wrongly told the committee that ministers were briefed by UKMIS [the UK mission in Brussels] on the EU’s joint procurement agreement scheme and took a political decision not to participate in it. This is incorrect. Ministers were not briefed by our mission in Brussels about the scheme and a political decision was not taken on whether or not to participate.

The facts of the situation are as previously set out. Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint Covid EU procurement schemes. As those four initial schemes had already gone out to tender we were unable to take part.

Needless to say some labour MP is frothing the letter is not credible
With every action and word carefully documented I am sure we will find out exactly what the story is. Right now it is Government 10, servant nil.
Sounds like a case for summary dismissal to me, deliberately trying to sabotage the government .

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:36 AM

Your real world is a tad out of date. See : 22 Apr 20 - 03:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:27 AM

Cross posted - by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:26 AM

INCIDENTALLY (Back to the real world
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:23 AM

Late yesterday afternoon was mired in political farce when the FCO boss Simon McDonald suggested that Britain’s decision not to take part in the EU’s PPE procurement scheme was a “political” one, in direct contradiction to the Government’s given explanation of an email communications failure. Hancock immediately denied the claim by McDonald and hours later the top mandarin issued a correction stating he was wrong and it was, after all, not a political decision. The writers of Yes Minister would have rejected such a scenario…

Regardless of the merits of UK non-participation at first in a scheme being run by a foreign political body we are no longer members of, it is on form for the media to portray theoretical participation in the scheme as a land of milk and honey, when weeks on from the start of the crisis, the EU scheme has not delivered a single piece of PPE equipment to a single member state.

Not only are countries like Italy and Spain reaching the end stages of their Coronavirus pandemic having not seen PPE help from the EU, according to the Irish Medical Times, on the 24th March an EU Commission spokesman said, “The equipment should be available two weeks after the Member States sign the contracts with the bidders, which they should do very rapidly,”. If the UK Government missed a deadline this badly, you can be sure the media would be canning them…
untrammelled facts from Guido

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:18 AM

"and what you are refusing to do, Jim."
I have made my position clear - I made the suggestion in the first place - I asm not relly happy about blanking anybody in the present circumstances, but neither am I happy about allowing that individual just to refuse to debate and just use this forum for propaganda   
He has not been blanked and while he is responded to his propaganda needs to be exposed for what it is
It is unbelievebly mindless to continue as he does at the time people are dying of the inept politics he is defending
I really have finished with him - that was my last try
It's up to everybody else
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM

OK, here’s a suggestion - how about asking the mods to open a separate thread which only Iains and Jim can post to, and block them both from this thread? That way, they can kick, punch, bite, gouge, and spit in each other’s faces to their hearts’ content, and everybody else can get on with intelligent, civilised discussion here.

Sounds like a starter to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:55 AM

"a total embargo be operated on all behaviour of this nature" is what is being proposed and what you are refusing to do, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:50 AM

Sez the feller who who baosts
annd corrects mt spelling in the same line.

A true jim gem!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:46 AM

"Guido did a little digging on one of the journalists "
Over and ourt and, for the future of this thread I would highly recommend that a total embargo be operated on all behaviour of this nature
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:36 AM

Anybody who automatically dismisses a paper of the standing of The Guardian without presenting any evidence as you constantly do, yet relies as heavily as you do on a professional propagandist who employs people to gather his propaganda undermines any chance of his having own credibility accepted in discussions such as this
Funny you should mention propaganda
Guido did a little digging on one of the journalists that wrote the opinion piece on Boris and the missed cobra meetings.
Here for your delectation and delight:
the Sunday Times’ Environment Editor, Jonathan Leake, was one of the authors. Leake’s stories are often full of holes…

One stark mistake in the article was claiming immunologist Peter Openshaw “would have recommended increasing the threat to high”, however Openshaw later tweeted “I wasn’t there so can’t say if I would have dissented if I’d been there to hear the arguments”.
Previous gems include:
    Accused Gove of ordering the “killing of sick squirrels and deer”, with DEFRA subsequently explaining it was completely untrue and he hadn’t approached them for comment
    Asserted based purely on anecdotal evidence that “Pets, zoo animals and even Prince Charles’s cattle have been felled by the rampant disease [TB]” – something, again, the department explicitly said was completely untrue only to not have their statement included in the piece
    Wrongly claimed “French warship chases fishermen from scallop bay”, once again without asking the department who would have informed him the ships in question were 30 miles away from each other
    Misled readers that “metered homes pay 60% more for water” by making inappropriate comparisons between metered and unmetered customers with different water companies

Leake has a promising future as a fiction write, a blithering idiot or a budding propagandist.


By the way I look forward to seeing examples of Guido's propaganda.
Not that you will be able to find any of course. That is not what he does, as you well know. …

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 03:31 AM

at a rough guess, how many people do you think read all that post, Ian? was it about some leek?