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The future of folk music in a post-Covid
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 12:00 AM pfr, i am sorry but i have to reply to misrepresentation of what i said or did not say,My POINTS AND conclusions were that it is DIFFERENT. the future in ireland comes in to this because and as a result of the efforts of irish government and arts funding and mainstream media representation. plus the efforts of the piper society [wilie clancy school] and CCE, PLUS the efforts of numerous musicians/ teachers who go into primary schools and teach trad music on instruments[ whistle] to school children, my whole point is that the situation is different in ireland to the uk. as Jim Carroll pointed out when it comes to snging tradtional ballds, that is difficult a lot of the time in pubs, that is as i understand it why unaccompanied singers clubs exist in ireland. I am talking about 2020 PFR. This is what is happening in THE MAINSTREAM MEDIAin May 2020 in ireland I do think it would be an improvement if there was more tradtional and roots music on the uk radio stations. I am happy to play with musicans of all nationalities playing irish or scottish or english trad music or song, Jim Bainbridge[ who i know is not racist] seems to be getting unduly concerned about the nationalities of musicians,I am an internationlist and am just pleased that a people[of all nationalities] are playing trad music and songs in this area. of course the area where INSTRUMENTAL TRAD MUSIC it is strongest is CoClare. Ballydehob and West Cork are doing ok, though we have the Ballydehob trad music which occurs in april, the Fastnet marituime and Folk Festival in June, Chief ONeill Festival Sept IN Bantry, Fiddle Fair IN June Jim Dowling Uilleann Pipe and Trad Festival IN JUNE . ALL IN WEST CORK and four out of those five are run by irish organisers. but the really important people are the music teachers who teach trad music in primary schools that is one of the reasons why the future of instrumental trad music looks ok in ireland plus the state and arts funding and subsidised non commercial media exposure PFR. There was a jesuit saying get them before the age of 8 and there yours for life Jim Bainbridge do you remember Liam Kennealy [IRISH] who you used to do gigs with and who used to run the Ballydehob session for years,he sends his regards |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 06:24 AM I hope listening venues will continue in the uk folk clubc or house parties give the opportunity for story ballads to be sung. this can be done in pubs in ireland but generally does not work apart from the occasional one . singers clubs are good in ireland but fewin number but there is not generally the opprtunity to accompany ballads, that is not a problem for me as i am happy singnng unaccompanied or accompanied, but it is nevertheless a restriction. folk clubs and house parties circumvent this situation |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 06:40 AM Iremember where i was on the night of Sophie du Plantiers murder, Iwas playing music in the courtyard schull west cork with Liam Kennealy and Jim Bainbridge. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 24 May 20 - 09:32 AM Dick, sorry for delay replying but have been making a shelter for our sheep... wild winds here this weekend.... You are quite right that I'm out of touch with your local scene these days, and I think I said that. I almost mentioned Mary & Richard as a 1980s exception but they were in Bantry, 20 miles away as I remember, and I meant Mizen musicians. Take the Floor were good pals of mine with a similarly eclectic repertoire, but like me, hardly CCE material-, as for Paddy Barry- you must be joking! he was a chancer and a crap player- a few of those about. Jamesy Kingston had been a good fiddler, but sadly declined by then... I am NOT concerned with the nationality of players of Irish music, although I do incline to the 'can white men sing the blues' camp. My point was that 90pc of the trad (in your terms) music in BDH was played by the English & Europeans in the population - maybe it still is? that was a point meant to be in FAVOUR of the UK folk scene- many locals were amazed at knowledge of Irish music & quality playing of these incomers! Rosie's was the ONLY pub in Schull/Ballydehob & west with a weekly session, run by Jane & Andy- I got there in 1985, a little earlier than you, I think & that is how it was- very disappointing really! I've already given my view of the future for the music & Ireland has a head start there, and I'm delighted if the scene now is as good as you say- maybe you deserve credit for that?? but don't tell me that Ballydehob was a lost world of music in the 1980s- it was anything but! Charlie Coughlan & his automatic keyboard was the local musical hero- nice chap but I once saw him set it to 3/4 time & go & get a pint while the 'music' continued!! Now let's get back to 2020- not much of a prospect really, but we do need to think about the future & not the past...treat this a historical and objective snapshot of 1980s Ireland maybe? ps give my best wishes to Liam & Ger- also --who was that ghastly female uillean piper who played in Kilcrohane in the 90s? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 12:26 PM paddy barry was technically good he could get in to third position on the fiddle will cotter was a good playerition. Bantry IS 10.5 MILES FROM Dunbeacon church where i lived and about 11 miles from where you were, not 20. why are you bringing ballydehob in to this . i made a remark about media and radio exposure of trad music, i did not criticise the uk folk revival neither did i say ballydehob was a hotbed of trad music[ ihave been back in dunbeacon not ballydehob for 3 years there was irish musicians playing in west cork Seamus Creagh had a weekly gig in the corner bar. the ghastly piper you referred to was actually a very.good piper, she[ was of irih extraction her parents were irish ] and played in a band with an irish musician called martin mcgrath who was living at that time in west cork and was from Kerry., she was a much better piper than the man who called you an entertainer who played a set of pipes without regulators [hugh quinn] from skibbereen, also irish PADDY BARRYS granddaughter lives in ballydehob and there is a picture of her as a child playing at the weekly session that Cathy Cook[ [ that wone wasnothing to do with andy or jane] started which was held every week in Rosies, it still goes on every friday in different pubs[ i remember Charlie Piggott dropped in once back in 1995 it s people like anita barry that are the future in ireland |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 12:51 PM Why bring Ballydehob in to this, is it to annoy me because i was kicked out by my ex in a way a dog would not be treated, I have not lived there for 3 years. THE FUTURE IS SAFE IN IRELAND BECAUSE STATE AND ARTS FUNDING HAVE ENSURED THAT RADIO AIR PLAY IS FREQUENT , I AM AT THIS MOMENT LISTENING TO TRAD MUSIC ON RADIO NA GEALTA AS I WAS AT 8 AM THIS MORNING that is not a crticism of the uk folk revival |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 24 May 20 - 02:02 PM Re the Kilcrohane piper, BRUTAL would have been a better word.... I mentioned BDH because that's where YOU lived when I was there!! I'm not going to argue about mileages- come on! Of course there was good music in West Cork then, but nowhere near the Mizen area- it was all electric & ballad crap I've told you what I found in 1985 & stick by it- I WAS THERE- go and listen to your trad music- this is not of any interest to anyone else, we don't live in the same world, Dick, but if you're happy there, that's fine- enough now.... |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST Date: 24 May 20 - 02:24 PM Paddy Barry may not have been the greatest fiddle player in the world but his pub was something to be experienced, especially during the new years day horse race in Durrus, past the creamery. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 02:27 PM but why mention it? , I was talking about National trad music radio coverage on radiona gealta, I Never attacked the uk folk revival i,hope folk clubs still carry on I THINK THEY ARE GOOD PLACES TO SING NARRATIVE BALLADS. i never mentioned ballydehob, ballydehob is irrelevant, why do you bring it up I was talking about media coverage on a national scale in ireland why insult a musician from Kilcrohane.who was avery good piper, flute player and fiddler.. Geraldine Urwin, who played in the band Suifinn souffice to say Colm Murphy ONE OF IRELANDS LEADING BODHRAN PLAYERS WAS HAPPY TO RECORD WITH HER now to get back to folk music in the future, the immediate future will see online development, whether that will continue when we return to a semblance of normality? I WOULD GUESS ONLINE TUITION WILL CONTINUE |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 24 May 20 - 03:09 PM Paddy Barry was a character all right but very mean! I remember going to an arranged session in winter there about 1988. It was b... freezing in the pub & we all had coats on- there was an unused open fire. Someone asked if he'd light it- 'ah no' he said 'you'll warm up when you start playing'! We shamed him by going along to Wiseman's for some briquettes- what a pain.... no chance of a free pint- must have been mad! or maybe just keen? suggestion- new thread about 'memories of Mizen music in the 80s' ?? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 04:52 PM well cathy cook and i always got free pints on the house as soon as we walked in the fiddle was brought down and we had to play and never paid for a pint he appreciated what we did. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: theleveller Date: 24 May 20 - 05:15 PM I've seen more live concerts since lockdown than I have in years - on Facebook, YouTube etc. Dougie MacLean has done 32, Steve Knightley, Steve Tilston, Ray Hearne, Oysterband and loads of others have been posting stuff ever day. Best thing to happen to folk music in ages. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 24 May 20 - 05:16 PM Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Steve Gardham - PM Date: 22 May 20 - 01:45 PM The very nature of our music, based at grass-roots level, will ensure that its future will have a better chance of survival and even thrive above and beyond any other genre, simply because it does not rely on commercialism to sustain it. quote True, but guest booking folk clubs have paid a part in keeping standards higher in the uk, what i would not like to see is singers clubs where people are unrehearsed and not singing folk, i would not be interesed in singing in such places i would rather stay at home and invite a selection of friends who like the same kind of music, an invite only house party would be more to my liking than people shuffling through bits of paper and singing bad versions of pop songs. i am not saying all singers clubs are like that, but if i went a couple of times and it was . i wouldnt bother again |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 May 20 - 02:54 AM How many clubs like that have you been to, Dick? I know of some people who commit all the crimes you mention but not all the time and I don't know of any club where they are in the majority. I find that,generally, the standard is high and I can live with the occasional unrehearsed non-folk song. But my experience is limited while you are much better travelled. Is it most clubs that are like the ones you describe? Half of them? 10%? Less? No need to name and shame, although it may be useful to know where to avoid. Are there clubs where most singers behave like this? Give us an idea how widespread it is. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 25 May 20 - 03:25 AM Quote what i would not like to see is singers clubs where people are unrehearsed and not singing folk, i would not be interested in singing in such places i would rather stay at home and invite a selection of friends who like the same kind of music, an invite only house party would be more to my liking than people shuffling through bits of paper and singing bad versions of pop songs.i am not saying all singers clubs are like that, but if i went a couple of times and it was . i wouldnt bother again quote ok, so i would give singers clubs a try for a couple of times IF the standard and repertoire was not to my taste i would not return. So i am not prejudging a venue before i go., you see i live in ireland and tend to visit guest booking clubs as a paid guest , i have found the standard in guest clubs ok to good. so i am not saying the standard is bad in singers clubs but saying if it was, i would not keep going., so I think it is necessary to try and keep a decent standard otherwise some people will not go What i can say categorically is that when i started going to folk clubs nobody sang from crib sheets, that is not the case now I think someone like vic smith of bryan creer would be in a better position to answer that, they possibly have more expeience than me, why dont you PM them |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 25 May 20 - 04:39 AM good to be back in the 21st century- I have little interest in the future of folk clubs, and hope that the coming generations will have the same respect for the tradition as we have |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 25 May 20 - 04:52 AM jim.you mention a musician from kilcrohane and in an insulting way, you state you are only talking about the mizen head, well kilcrohane is on the sheeps head peninsula further than bantry 13.5miles bantry 11 miles you wish to include her in your post yet exclude the tisdalls who lived closer. that is illogical i have an interest in folk clubs because they are an ideal venue for songs such as narrative ballads , you talk about respect for the tradtion, but this sounds like it does not include narrative ballads, narrative baalads get shown respect if they can be listened to, where else other than folk clubs do you suggest this aspect of the tradtion is suited ,possibly house parties ,but not noisy pubs. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 25 May 20 - 05:13 AM GIVE IT A REST Dick!!- I've given my views & have no interest in geography- you don't agree with my views & I don't have any interest in that either! Ireland and the Irish are great in many ways but non-irish (and Irish?) must get a bit annoyed about having your propaganda rammed down their throats- We lived there in two regions & had a grand time in both, but left twice- I'm just trying to restore the balance! Your arguments remind me of evangelical vegetarians. Leave your Irish dreamworld & move on!- we're talking post- Covid here!! pubs may well be unrecognisable if there are any left.... - the locations for performance of long narrative ballads is your problem rather than mine... |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 25 May 20 - 06:32 AM no jim it is you that brought this crap up, i am not pushing propoganda anywhere ,just explain what you mean, what you are doing is not about restoring balance, but misrepresenting what i said which has a connection with post covid future, i never mentioned anything other than the media coverage ,you brought up ballydehob where you have not lived for many years the future in ireland for folk will be ok because the instrumental and song tradtion is widely represented in the mainstream media,and has support from the government and from the arts, that is a fact and is not an attack on the uk folk revival. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE MORE MEDIA REPRESNTATION OF FOLK MUSIC IN THE UK.I am sure you would too |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST Date: 25 May 20 - 07:04 AM By 2017 25% of west cork pubs had closed. That trend has continued over the last three years and the compulsory covid closure means many more will be unlikely to re-open. The smoking ban, drink driving, supermarket alcohol sales and some of the highest excise duties in europe make pubs an icreasingly unsustainable business model. Random guard checkpoints on even the most remote backroads have destroyed many rural pubs. The pub as a venue for folkmusic is shrinking rapidly. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,kenny Date: 25 May 20 - 09:20 AM https://youtu.be/a7m5-P7fDUg |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 25 May 20 - 09:34 AM No Dick- you just keep rabbiting on about how much better things are in Ireland- that's an opinion, but it's getting a little wearing, especially from a blow-in, much of whose musical living has been in England for many years, so let's have some balance here Move on, for God's sake!! |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 25 May 20 - 09:48 AM no i do not, i keep saying that the mainstream media coverage of tradtional music is more in ireland than it is in the uk that is a fact not an opinion. jim,stop misrepresnting what i am saying. furthermore i have said how important it in my opinion is for uk folk clubs to reopen, because they are listening venues where narrative ballads can be sung and also sung with accompaniment. jim ,your continual attacks are wearing including criticising me for calling a festival i run a shanty festival,just feck off |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Nemisis Date: 25 May 20 - 10:10 AM Have a laugh gentlemen O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad fra |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 May 20 - 10:59 AM Run Rat Boy, run... |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 25 May 20 - 11:20 AM Dick, I've been trying to move this on for a few exchanges now- that's the end of it- you have my views & you have yours. Another of my views is that you are a pain in the arse and always have been-- give my best to the lovely people of Ballydehob & leave the thread to people who might have something to say.. adios tonto Jim ps I'm not looking for any more bookings at your shanty festival.... |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Raggytash Date: 25 May 20 - 12:27 PM I found this on the fastnet maritime folk festival website and have highlighted some of the text in capitals, why the objection to it being referred to as a "shanty festival" "2018 marks this festival’s 7th year running. Coordinator Dick Miles is pleased to welcome Martin Carthy back to the festival for the second time, along with old favourites such as Matt Cranitch and Jackie Daly, Steve Turner, Richard Grainger and many more. For the first time, we welcome Tom Lewis. SEA SONGS, SHANTIES, dance, craft market, artisan food and craft stalls, sea songwriting competition, music in the pubs and Ballydehob Community Hall. Most events are free except for headline concert. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 20 - 12:47 PM This is the present in the COVID-19 crisis: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues. A new "parody" of this song has been added, an ironic full-circle from the infirmary, to the streets of Laredo, and back to the infirmary. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 May 20 - 02:31 PM I wanted to post something here at some point, but not.. " punkfolkrocker - PM Date: 25 May 20 - 10:59 AM " that's an "oops.. wrong thread, too may tabs open.."... |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 25 May 20 - 04:27 PM I would have preferred to talk with jim by pm but he is not a member |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 26 May 20 - 05:21 AM We've said what we need to, Dick, now let people get on with the point of this thread- in the scheme of things it's a minor matter. However, it needs to be discussed, but as I've stated my preferred scenario earlierI won't repeat it, but an end to commercialism would be a three word summary? So GOODNIGHT FROM ME and GOODNIGHT (maybe) FROM HIM |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 26 May 20 - 06:40 AM the future of folk music in post covid uk might be to look at what has happened in other countries CCE, receives more government funding than the EFDSS, for a start I would like to see more arts AND sports funding going to EFDSS Here is an article from living Tradtion magazine The EFDSS - A Future by Roger Marriot - Issue 27 June/July '98 {graphic} There will be few readers of The Living Tradition who are members of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, and probably many who really care little about it. Yet many (and certainly readers in England) owe it more than they realise, and should be concerned about its future. A little history The history of the EFDSS falls into three phases. From 1911 to 1939 it was concerned chiefly with the propagation of morris and sword dances, and the so-called Playford dances, first under its founding Director, Cecil Sharp, and after his death in 1924, under Douglas Kennedy. Although Kennedy attempted to shift the emphasis to traditional social dance as early as the late twenties, he met with considerable resistance from members, and it was only with the outbreak of war in 1939, that he was able to achieve his aim. Post-war, with a staff of about thirty, and several regional offices, and based upon traditional dance, the EFDSS was extremely successful. (In the early 50s they were queuing in the street to get into dances in Birmingham.) A country-wide local network was established, and many young people joined. There was collaboration with the BBC, and sponsorship of collecting activities in music and song. The EFDSS invented the folk festival, and several week-long teaching courses were held each year. The annual Albert Hall festival filled the hall for two nights and a children's matinZe. There were grants from central and local government, amounting to a sizable proportion of its annual income. It is worth remembering that the Society at its best was far more than a successful organisation. It was a fellowship, within which friendships and marriages flourished, and which provided a possibility of social contacts across classes and throughout the country. After Kennedy's retirement in 1961, there was a loss of strong central control. The members came to see the Society not as a mechanism for promoting dance and song to a wider public, but as a body to provide for their own leisure. They came to regard folk song and dance as recreations rather than as arts. Slowly the EFDSS slid downhill, losing staff and cutting back on its teaching activities. Simultaneously, there was an increase in commercial activity. The Society faced a situation where government funding was decreasing, and activities capable of generating money were being taken over by others. By 1986 the Society made redundant its last member of teaching staff, and decided that it could no longer bear the financial risk involved in promoting the Sidmouth festival. In 1987 the Society's governing body came to the conclusion that the best option for its future was to sell the London HQ, Cecil Sharp House, and relocate into cheaper premises, putting the surplus into an endowment fund. This proposal met with furious opposition from a pressure group, the Friends of Cecil Sharp House. The desire to keep the building seems to have come from London and Home Counties members who used it as a clubhouse, and those with fond and nostalgic memories of the fifties. After a bitter campaign and an election marred by fraud, the Friends gained control. In 1988 there was an offer of £2.3 million on the table, with a possible increase if certain planning consents could be obtained. This would (at 1988 prices) have provided adequate housing for the offices and library, and an endowment fund of about £1 million to run them. The sale was rejected by the new administration. The battle for the Society was bitter. It destroyed the fellowship. So... Does this matter in 1998? Do we need a traditional dance and song society of any description? I think we do, and for the reasons that follow. The case for a national traditional arts body First is the maintenance and development of the Vaughan Williams Library, the foremost national repository of material concerning traditional dance, song and music. It contains Cecil Sharp's library, many of his notebooks and manuscripts, other important collections of papers, and films, photographs and sound recordings. Any person making a serious study of traditional musical arts will, sooner or later, come to need the resources of the Vaughan Williams Library, the focus of knowledge in the field. Second is the encouragement and co-ordination of collection and research to further our knowledge. The tradition may be everlasting, but knowledge and understanding of it, as in any area of study, is subject to continual development. Third is teaching in all its aspects - the dissemination of knowledge, and passing on the tradition to future generations - the running of workshops and courses, the publication of all types of teaching material, and teaching necessary skills. Implicit in these activities is the development and propagation of a philosophy. Why is there a purpose in passing on a tradition? What is this purpose? What is the tradition? How is it most effectively passed on? Under what conditions does tradition flourish? Should there be a traditional arts movement ? If so, what is it? Is 'folk' an appropriate term? Is it the same as 'traditional'? Can either flourish in a world dominated by commercial interests? And so on... To recognise the questions is as important as to have answers. Fourth is the upholding of standards. By this, I do not mean a sterile puritanism, engraved in stone, but the keeping of a watchful eye, to see that development does not destroy. This is a dilemma that faces all revivalists. We who today enjoy traditional music, song and dance should remember that we can do this only because the tradition, once near death, was revived. In an age of mass communication we can never be certain that the tradition will survive unaided - the social forces which attack it are always there. (In the past there was a trickle of innovation entering a lake of tradition. Today, there is a fire-hose aimed into a bucket.) The purpose of 'maintaining standards', is not to inhibit artistic growth and development, but to ensure that those who enter traditional arts, knowing little of them (as many will today), start from a basis of authentic tradition, and not at several stages removed from it. And, I would maintain, the concept of 'art' implies that some is good, some bad. Fifth, there is need for a national coordinating mechanism, so that those involved in the traditional arts movement can work in co-operation, with each other, and with related bodies outside the folk world. Sixth, there should be a national point of reference for contact with the traditional arts of other cultures. Seventh, there is the maintenance of a disinterested presence, working within the traditional arts for the benefit of all, rather than for a particular section. Currently, the most visible part of the world of what is commonly called 'folk' music is dominated by festival organisers, promoters and entertainment agencies, whose ability to provide bookings, fees and publicity has great influence over performers. A second, but growing influence, is that of the increasing band of arts administrators, who both solicit and dispense grants and subsidies. Underpinning this structure is the commercialisation of much of the folk scene, and its division into punters and performers. This world of folk has now much in common with 'show-biz', and the motive of personal self-expression is perhaps the dominating feature, to the point where the use of traditional material has been abandoned, and even a claim to be creating within a traditional framework is extremely difficult to sustain. This, I feel is an important point which must be clearly understood. Whether or not the performer is paid does not matter. What matters is motivation. Is the performer wishing to carry on a tradition and share it with others, or is he (or she) just hell-bent on getting up on a stage? Does the material come first, or the performer? (Remember Stanislavski: 'One must love the art in oneself, not oneself in the art'.) As Gerry Epstein has pointed out (Living Tradition No. 24), there is a difference between maintaining a tradition and providing entertainment. There is clearly a need for a presence which can speak and act for those whose attitude to traditional dance, song and music is not primarily, largely, or even at all, derived from considerations of profit, or power, or career; a presence which can say, 'This we do because we believe in it, and if necessary, we will raise the money to do it at a loss, because it is right that it should be done'. Such a presence would speak for those (and their numbers are consistently under-estimated) who wish to be neither paid performers nor paying punters, but participants . They carry on the traditional arts in a traditional way, meeting in pubs, clubs and each others' homes, and perhaps have a greater claim to be considered traditional artists than most. They have a fellowship based upon a shared enthusiasm. Present state of the EFDSS Forty years ago, the EFDSS had about 10,000 subscribing adherents (full members and associates). At the end of March l997 it had 3127 members. By now, assuming that the previous rate of decline continues, it will probably be less than 3000. Over 20% of members are reliably estimated to be Old Age Pensioners, and a survey a few years back revealed the average age of members to be over sixty years. This situation is not improving: to be blunt, the Society is literally dying out. If one examines what the EFDSS actually does, a depressing picture emerges. Overwhelmingly the members are dancers, not singers. Furthermore, the dances they value and practise are not traditional, but revived dances from printed collections, or modern inventions in a similar style - the more complicated the better. (One recent invention has nine separate movements in thirty-two bars.) Today, although each EFDSS member receives the Folk Music Journal and the quarterly English Dance and Song, there are perpetual complaints that both are 'too academic', and frequent calls to abolish the FMJ, often accompanied by the statement 'I throw it away as soon as it arrives'. A recent survey of library usage found that very few readers were EFDSS members. The position of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library must be seen in context of the EFDSS structure. The EFDSS is a charity, subject to charity law. It is also a company limited by guarantee. Each member, like a shareholder, has a vote at an AGM, and the members elect a governing National Council, which constitutes a board of directors for the company, who are also trustees of the charity. (The EFDSS only became a charity as late as 1963. The desire to obtain relief from rates seems to have been a consideration as important as any desire to do good to non-members.) Cecil Sharp House is held as a subsidiary trust. (The EFDSS is the trustee.) The property is held 'to be used in perpetuity for the purposes of English Folk Dance and Song'. In practice, it is let out for other activities, and contributes to the Society, which could not now survive without the rent it generates. The Vaughan Williams Library was created a trust in 1996. Again, the EFDSS is the trustee. It has no income except what the EFDSS gives it, what is contributed by the National Folk Music Fund, and grants from the Vaughan Williams Trust. It is accommodated in Cecil Sharp House. Library direct earnings (from admission fees and so forth) are slight. The National Folk Music fund was established in 1958 to endow the Library. It is independent of the EFDSS, and though worthy of support, it cannot be said to have been the success hoped for at its launch, and assistance from the Vaughan Williams Trust has been vital to the Library for some years now. However, this grant has recently been cut, and (according to a well-informed source) further cuts are probable. Around 40% of the Library income is from outside the EFDSS. Moreover, an offer of £250,000 from the VW Trust, to aid in relocating and expanding the Library within Cecil Sharp House, has now been withdrawn. The reason appears to be the Society's unwillingness to allow the VW Trust to have any representation on the Library Trust. (Considering it is the Vaughan Williams Library, this seems odd.) Where does this leave us all? The campaign of the Friends of Cecil Sharp House resulted in the building becoming Listed Grade II, which undoubtedly diminished its market value. The subsequent creation of inter-locking trusts within the EFDSS has made any reorganisation more difficult. The EFDSS is now literally moribund. The prospect that a body of dancing pensioners could themselves have any serious impact on the traditional arts is not to be entertained. That they could organise and finance others to execute plans to promote what they do not themselves appear to value is improbable. With the abolition of its regional organisation it has ceased to exist as a national body. Despite having regional seats on the National Council, candidates to fill them are difficult to find. The cost of running what is left of the Society and providing its members with periodicals is not covered by subscriptions. As at November 1997, the EFDSS had financial reserves well below the one- year reserve recommended by the Charity Commission. The prospect of raising income from members or events is negligible. The likelihood of a grant from the National Lottery is remote. The Sports Council has cut its grant already and may do so again. Even if a substantial grant were obtained, the clarity of purpose and the machinery to use it does not exist. (The EFDSS has a new administrator every two or three years.) Without the rent from Cecil Sharp House, erected as a centre for English dance and song, but largely let out to the British American Drama Association, the whole organisation would collapse. None of this matters. If the EFDSS folded tomorrow, traditional dance and song would hardly notice. What does matter is the Library. Unfortunately, the Library Trust Deed contains a clause stating that it must not be moved out of Cecil Sharp House, which is situate at 2, Regents Park Road, London. Why was this clause inserted? Events of the last few years suggest that the current EFDSS sees the Library, not as a valued asset, and the key to any traditional arts movement, but as a bargaining counter. By requiring the Library to be kept in Cecil Sharp House, those who control the Society have a card to play for the retention of this building, even if the books, manuscripts and recordings were in boxes in the basement. (Remember, the EFDSS turned down £250,000 rather than lose any control.) Is there a way forward? Common sense suggests that the way forward is for the Library to be made secure by whatever means, and in whatever location, and the Folk Music Journal and teaching activities to be associated with it. The EFDSS as it now stands, and Cecil Sharp House as a dance hall, are irrelevant to a future. The evidence is clear that the great majority of present Society members, whatever they say, are in practice not focussed on traditional arts, are not Library users, and are not active in teaching, performing, or research. Such a reconstruction seems unlikely. There are gifted and dedicated people within the EFDSS who hope to reform it. The trouble is, there are not enough of them to have any effect. Reform would require the consent of the members, unless they vote themselves out of control. It would require money. It would require a vision extending beyond the latest complicated dance learned at a local club. It would require the recruitment and involvement of persons to whom the Society, as it stands, has little to offer and much to repel. In sum, it needs a revolution. The eventual death of the EFDSS seems inevitable. In that event, the future of the Library would be uncertain. Legally, it may pass to a charitable body with similar aims and objects. Realistically, this would probably be some other library - a university's perhaps - as a successor body would have to find at least £50,000 p.a. and accommodation. On the other hand, it is not impossible to create a fresh organisation, built on traditional arts - music, dance, song, story-telling - so as to teach them and pass them on, and seeking to create a new fellowship. It would always have the option to support the Library. There is plenty to do, and many willing to do it. The EFDSS is dying - let a fresh torch pass to younger hands Links, further information and recordings: Read the response - printed in a later article |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST Date: 26 May 20 - 07:32 AM A nice bit of history about EFDSS in the last century. There are people making a name on the folk scene who weren't even born when that article was written. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 26 May 20 - 08:25 AM Good, Thats encouraging, but will there be a flourishing uk folk scene will there be enough venues to support professional singers? will some go into other music? i am sure morris dancing will continue,once this is over. i have had a few tunes on sunny days outside with another musician observing social distancing. i think it will just take a little while, but small venues that do not have huge overhead costs and are fairly informal and where singers can be spaced out will possibly do well in the interim?but really it is a guessing game |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: punkfolkrocker Date: 26 May 20 - 10:45 AM Any young mudcatters unencumbered with decades of baggage care to contribute realistic contemporary ideas about the future for folk music...??? errrrmmm... any young mudcatters...??? .. anyone under 60...?????????? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Joe Offer Date: 26 May 20 - 12:00 PM I "went" to a Zoom song circle last night. There were participants in Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, Alaska, West Virginia, and California. Over the weekend, I went to song circles in California, Oregon, and Washington State. As I listened, I researched the songs and started Mudcat threads on a lot of songs that hadn't been discussed here. Every moment of those gatherings was positive, and every person sang their best. And I heard and interacted with some wonderful singers. And we laughed a lot. I don't think I'm going to be able to sing in person with people for a year, maybe more. But I sure enjoy singing online, and I'm learning a lot this way. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Peter Date: 26 May 20 - 02:08 PM Any young mudcatters unencumbered with decades of baggage Young mudcatter is an oxymoron. My impression is that a lot of youngsters in the folk scene regard this site as a bit of a joke. I have been a regular critic of EFDSS but a posting of a 22 year old article to portray what they are doing deserves some correction. Here are a couple of Tweets illustrating what is happening in lockdown/
Not sure if these will embed properly but the links should be ok |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 26 May 20 - 02:56 PM Thankyou for the up date. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST Date: 27 May 20 - 04:57 AM 22 year old info- some folkies are on about a 1954 definition- can we have a reality check please- this is 2020!!! |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 27 May 20 - 07:41 AM Thank you Guest, and your point is?????????????? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST Date: 27 May 20 - 08:25 AM my point is that the thread is about the FUTURE not how it was in 1954 or 1998- that is ancient history now irrelevant. I believe you said (I precis from memory) that you are an optimist and things would soon return to normal? You must be barmy if you think that - 'back to normal' is not an option! THAT is my point- what's yours? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 27 May 20 - 08:55 AM Well that's got that sorted out! Not only is forty years of the Folk Scene irrelevant, but you can also foretell the future! My word what a talented Guest you are. You haven't been playing with your crystal balls again have you? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,talented guest Date: 27 May 20 - 03:49 PM The folk scene was not irrelevant, it's obviously the basis of what we have today. What is irrelevant TO THIS THREAD is chuntering on about what happened years ago! I don't need a crystal ball to see that this virus has changed everything-that's the REASON for this thread!!!! if you think that it hasn't, you must live under a stone somewhere- I for one hope it has changed a lot, especially politically, and I'd hope the 'folk scene' will change too. Folk music isn't that important really, but a few ideas rather than your mindless sarcasm would be appreciated, or maybe you do still live in 1954? |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 May 20 - 03:49 PM The point is GUEST that as we said earlier folk music is much better placed to survive and thrive than any other genre as other genres are too reliant on commercialism and rarely have much of a grassroots level. Luckily over the last 20 years or so folk music performance has spread out in all sorts of formats and venues so there are more options. When one fails we find other options. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 27 May 20 - 06:32 PM There seem to be two opposing sets of ideas here 1 Folk music is in some sense 'roots' and not commercial 2 A flourishing folk 'scene' is one where there is government funding and venues that can support professional singers |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: Jack Campin Date: 27 May 20 - 06:48 PM I wouldn't underestimate the grassroots power of commercialism. I suspect the single largest category of web-based amateur performance right now is teenagers doing TikTok videos of the Floss Dance from Fortnite. Which is not really a creation of the communal folk psyche. That said, the folk scene has adapted well, considering how shit Zoom is. Well enough to demonstrate that folk clubs didn't serve much purpose even before the virus came along. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 28 May 20 - 05:04 AM Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,Pseudonymous - PM Date: 27 May 20 - 06:32 PM There seem to be two opposing sets of ideas here 1 Folk music is in some sense 'roots' and not commercial 2 A flourishing folk 'scene' is one where there is government funding and venues that can support professional singers, quote no that was not my opinion. i believe a flourishing folk scene is one where government funding[such as ireland]can support all all aspects of folk music , not just professional singers In fact in IRELAND in the 21st century because of the oversupply of good trad musicians and the lack of folk clubs,and diminishing number of pubs many musicians and singers have had to got the UK to make a living, but the grassroots.instrumental side is flourishing, this[the flourishing part] is partly to do with state funding and media coverage one area in the uk where social dustancing might be easier to make happen could be folk camps. |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,talented guest Date: 28 May 20 - 05:43 AM The division of the music has been ongoing for some years now, with huge growth on one side of informal song and music sessions all over England. It seems like every village in Northumberland has a 'trad' session these days (pre-virus, of course), but not only there, much further south as well. Sandman, you have often praised the financial help and exposure given to young Irish musicians, and you say the Irish 'roots' scene thrives? You've also often bemoaned the parallel lack of help in England? However, all this informal music in England has happened without such help, indeed the sessions are sometimes the subject of varying degrees of ridicule from the public, and the BBC is only now realising that there may be something worthwhile about folk music, even if their efforts are pretty wooden & uninspired up to now. Your idea of folk camps sounds a bit like the pre-war Woodcraft Folk events & may be a possible step forward- especially for socialists with little spending power? At the very least, it's a positive idea for a future where folky social gatherings like clubs and festivals, and even sessions? become impractical |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: The Sandman Date: 28 May 20 - 07:01 AM well i have only heard about folk camps apparantly 21st century, but the woodrcaft folk were post war, i went in the late fifties early sixties, the BBC did have a programme in the 1960s called hold down a chord which was influential. However what i stated earlier was that radio coverage was more extensive, particularly radio na gaelchta[which is susidised and presents trad music in a non commercial way] and that this has been partly rsponsible for the relatively flourishing grassroots of the music. of course because irish musicians were forced to emigrate in the 20th century this has strengthened the grassroots trad music particularly in cities, alot of this took place in pubs, this may or may not be a problem n the immediate futre. northumberland in my opinion it is an english exception, there was also southern english style in then isolated o places in the 1980s east anglia and devon. I Lived there then, i did not think it was as strong in east anglia as northumberland, but you are a better judge, if you dont think more sympathetic and extensive media coverage would help., fair enough but i think you do |
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Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid From: GUEST,talented guest Date: 28 May 20 - 09:23 AM Sorry Sandman- I meant POST war re the Woodcraft folk- there were folk camps before the war, though, it isn't a new idea but may be relevant again soon. Re media coverage of folk music- anyone who has a pc, internet radio or smartphone can now listen to any station anywhere! It may be that the Irish scene you mention has benefited from good media coverage in the past, but I can listen to your Irish stations anytime I like so maybe there's no difference now? Also I think you seriously underestimate the number of song/music gatherings in England these days- Sussex & Gloucestershire spring to mind among others |
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