BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:37 PM

He's bloody good but you'd have to recruit him, pfr...

Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask. As I said, they would grow into the jobs. There's no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy. Johnson is a misogynist, and, as such, he would be no match for them. Two good socialist women against a burnt-out Tory fatty? No contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:55 PM

"you'd have to recruit him, pfr"


Who said it has to be a bloke...!!!???

...or even human...

we're getting to the stage where an AI avatar could replace most politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:06 PM

Shit. Thought you meant Alexei Sayle, then I realised he's not a military veteran...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:32 PM

”Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask.”

Well, that’s an opinion, Steve, to which you are unarguably entitled. I guess it’s down to the individual’s view of what constitutes ‘charisma’. We obviously set different standards in that respect.

”As I said, they would grow into the jobs.“

Or they might crash and burn. Sweeping predictions can come back to bite those who make them in the gluteus maximus. Only time and opportunity could be the judges. Until then, it’s just a guess.

.”there’s no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy”

I absolutely agree on the first part, as did the 56% of voters who gave Starmer their vote in the leadership election - more than Nandy and Long-Bailey together, effectively a landslide.

With regard to the second ‘Lisa Nandy’ part, out of respect for the OP I’m trying to have an intelligent, adult discussion here. Just for once, could you do the same please, and refrain from your standard, below-the-belt, snidey attempts at provocation when you’re not getting your own way. I’d appreciate that very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM

”A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...“


-------:-------


...Thought you meant Alexei Sayle, ....


Alexei Sayle has been eligible for a free bus pass for a good few years now. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, 'youngish middle aged' would be someone in their late 40s but Alexei is beyond middle age of any sort.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:26 PM

I know, Doug, but I admit that I sort of glossed over pfr's post and ever so slightly misinterpreted... Though wouldn't Alexei be good?! One thing's for sure: he wouldn't stand for all this fake antisemitism shite, not for one second!

Sorry, John, but my opinion on Lisa Nandy has been consistent for a very long time, and your advocacy of her does not disqualify me from saying what I think of her. In several posts, a longish time ago now, I've said that she is a divisive figure in the party, having briefed against Corbyn consistently, and that I think she's a political lightweight. I'm very glad that she got nowhere in the leadership election (even though she comes from my town and went to the same school as my sister). As for charisma and taking risks, well I think that taking risks is exactly what the party should be doing right now in the unexpected circumstances we find ourselves in. There will never be a better time. Playing safe with Keir is a copout, and the Tories must be in seventh heaven in these populist times that we've chosen such a grey man. Anyway, I'm never bitter when "I can't get my way." Life's not like that. I hope your bellyache settles soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Steve, I guess I’m still suffering from ‘Jim-Lag’, whose ranting at and about me I found very insulting and hurtful (I also have feelings, y’know!), and I’m still kinda instinctively reacting to his kind of vitriol, even when it’s not there in your posts! Pax on that?

Well, we’re never going to agree about RL-B, who I see as a very good brain, a first-class back-room girl and shadow-cabinet-member, but too wooden in her public oratory style to make a leader. So let’s agree to disagree, eh?

Regarding ‘fake antisemitism shite’, I agree that there’s unlikely to be any more antisemitism in the LP than in any other party, but there’s been a protracted propaganda campaign aimed at shit slinging at the LP, and you know what they say about shit, don’t you - some of it inevitably sticks. And I’m fairly sure that, because of that campaign, there’s a perception amongst the voting public that the party is antisemitic, and it’s this perception that any leader needs to quash. Well, there’s more than one way to swing a cat, and perhaps Starmer’s policy is to silence any comments that any enemy of the party could conceivably latch on to as being evidence of antisemitism and use it in the inevitable pre-election re-run of the Tory Propaganda Campaign? It’s a tactic. Maybe not a tactic you’d agree with, but neither of us have the insider knowledge of what goes on in Westminster currently.

Only time will tell, but it’s just a thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM

Ben Elton?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM

Could do worse! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:02 AM

50 years ago I'd have said Bill Shankly (aka God). :-) Even Fergie was a bit of a leftie but, like Sir Keir, he was rather too adept at ditching brilliant people a bit precipitously (ask Beckham, Cantona and Van Nistelrooy - they are Fergie's RLBs. He still succeeded, but then again he had masses of charisma and he took absolutely no shit from the media).

There's no time like the present, under these extraordinary circumstances, to do something different. Corbyn got rid of good people too, lest we forget. It didn't work and it doesn't shut people up. Stand up and call it like it is. That's why I mistakenly thought that pfr was referring to Alexei. No pusillanimous apologies for stuff that doesn't need apologising for, tell the truth loud and clear and tell the bloody naysayers where to get off. Read his wiki entry. Fierce honesty always shines through eventually, I feel. Well, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:27 AM

Steve, I don’t regard an apology as an indication of lack of courage - precisely the opposite, it’s a very good indicator of a genuine strength of character. Any self-opinionated fool can dig his heels in and refuse to recognise his error - it takes strength and an innate self-confidence to admit error and apologise.

Shame others don’t understand that indisputable fact. Those who doubt it should read this...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:35 AM

None of the three candidates in the final vote for the leadership were exactly charismatic though, were they?

It is the way of the world, politically at the moment.

Let's face it. Starmer seems to have some gravitas. A good foil for the incumbent at  Haystack Central . Think back to a previous populist PM. Wilson exuded rightness yet was an adulterer (with Marcia) - I know because someone who told me his father was the solicitor who brokered the deal about Mrs Wilson's book of poems, in return for a facade of theatrical, homely normality, in the face of Wilson's philandering. And, by all accounts, his sincerity was a sham. He smoked cigars, not the pipe he used as a thespian prop.
Compared to Alec Douglas-Home who came across as an upper class twit, yet apparently was sincere.

At least these days what you see is (nearly) what you get. And we can rejoice in the knowledge that their intended persona is badly engineered.

Now if COVID went on for 6 years at the same level as WWII we would have consensus politics. Yet we hope it doesn't. What irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 09:37 AM

On the anti-semitism question, wasn't the Labour leader before Corbyn Jewish?

Do we live in the age of short memories?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

Being Jewish ain't sufficient...
Being Jewish on the left or right makes the real meaningful difference.

What Labour needed/needs is leftish Jews with real fighting spirit...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:46 PM

"Did you just call me a 'self hating' Jew...!!!???"

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

Apologising - or, worse, being forced to apologise - for something that doesn't need apologising for shows lack of courage. The pro-Israel lobbyists and the Board Of Deputies will soon cotton on to you for doing that, and will strike when the time is right, just before the next election, for example. Don't think that this "Labour antisemitism" stuff is going away any time soon. It's far too useful a weapon for keeping Labour out of power for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Steve, read my post again - I never mentioned apologising ‘for something that doesn’t need apologising for’. I clearly and specifically spoke about apologising when one is in the wrong.

Please don’t twist my words, that’s one of Jim’s dishonest tactics - I like to think you’re better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:49 PM

.. just saying...


A couple of decades ago..
A weak cowardly Community Folk History project manager,
once tried to force me into making a public apology
to false allegations of verbal bullying,
contrived by a vain manipulative treacherous old tory and her henchwomen
on the volunteers committee..

The manager had previously confided to me,
she was being made ill by that old tory's constant complaints, interfering, and petty accusations...

I felt betrayed, and angry, so refused..

.. and the result of my defiance, was unemployment and loss of earnings...

The old tory got what she wanted, me replaced by a minion more to her political approval;
and her also taking credit and local glory for all my ideas and work..

.. and she still continued bullying the pathetic manager...

[that's my version of events, and I'm sticking to it...]

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:15 PM

But you stuck to your principles.

So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John? It seems to me that the actions as well as the words of Keir Starmer amount to apologising for past "misdemeanours" in the party. My firm view is that he shouldn't be doing that. I'm a member of the party because, compared to other outfits, the Labour Party, in spite of its faults and frequent outbursts of naivety and amateurism, is a shining beacon of virtue and principle. And I note that the chief rabbi is out there today knocking social media. Watch that space. I've told you: these people don't go away. And start apologising for mythical issues and they'll go away all the slower.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:44 PM

.. unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...

.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???

wot a shite existence...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:55 PM

You're not wrong, and that's precisely why we're in this global pickle...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:01 AM

”So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John?“

I don’t know, Steve. I’m not a member of the PLP, I’m not even a member of the LP. I don’t know any Labour MPs personally, I have no knowledge of theIr true beliefs and private personal behaviours, I haven’t a clue about the things they say in private - have you?

“...unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...
.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???”

Precisely the reason why the leader of the party should clamp down on anyone who says anything that could conceivably be latched-onto by The Tory Propaganda Machine - the Goebbels Principle applies. Shit sticks, the disaster of the 2019 GE is undeniable proof of that. And I’ve lost count of the number of people who have told me they ‘couldn’t vote Labour at the last election because Corbyn is an anti-semite and a friend of the terrorists’. Yes, it’s shit, but shit sticks.

What I do know is that MPs are elected to serve the people of the United Kingdom, people who desperately need a Labour government. Labour MPs should be giving their full attention to the welfare of our own citizens and working towards ridding us of the worst, most corrupt, most destructive Tory government in living memory.

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:06 AM

Ooooops, pressed ‘Go’ too soon. Should have said....

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to. The time for challenging Israel will be when Labour is in Government and has some semblance of power. Right now, it’s just a toothless tiger.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 05:50 AM

Details of Keir Starmer's donors for his campaign for leader are now beginning to emerge and it makes interesting reading.

Because he was well off he was able to provide the money for his own campaign but accepted donations to cover his own outlay, but was not obliged to declare these until after the election unlike the two other candidates:-


https://medium.com/@pitt_bob/who-funded-keir-starmers-campaign-170a42b43fc0

The phrase "usual suspects" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

IF Starmer has Blairite support it seems like steve myself and jim , might have been right

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 10:34 AM

Dick - you are not one of a special smug gang of three..

WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..

So please stop this divisive friction...

Other than that, WE are on the same side, and I agree with you on the very positive posts
you've made in this thread...

As for Jim, his analysis was usually spot on correct.
But sadly, his increasingly obsessive intolerant personality was his ultimate downfall...

I'll miss his knowledge and the links he posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 11:33 AM

”WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..“

Precisely, pfr, but that’s immaterial - I didn’t want him either, but he is the democratically-elected leader by what, by any standard, was a landslide.

I wonder if the members and supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party - you know, the party with a majority of 81 in the House of Commons, and which is funded by billionaire, tax-dodging ex-pats on a scale so enormous it puts Labour donations into the ‘sweetie-money’ category - are busily involving their party in public self-immolation over how their disgusting, racist, sexist leader and his stooge came to power?

Somehow, I doubt it. They’re too busy getting on with the business of crashing out of the EU without a trade deal, selling the NHS piecemeal, increasing austerity to further screw the ordinary Joes at the same time as they protect the interests of the immensely wealthy, collecting little nuggets to twist and use as ammunition in the inevitable pre-election Propaganda Campaign, yadda yadda. You know, all the important stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:38 PM

Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask. As I said, they would grow into the jobs. There's no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy. Johnson is a misogynist, and, as such, he would be no match for them. Two good socialist women against a burnt-out Tory fatty? No contest.
I wouldn't agree that Boris is "burnt out", and even if he is, under the current system there is no way that the left would be able to put up two opponents.

Doubtless you will explain away your comments as 'whimsey', or my comments as being "too literal", but it won't stop me from stopping your outrageous claims being allowed to stand unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:44 PM

I’m going to have to be very careful, I’m beginning to find my centre-left views (or, as Jim would probably describe them, ‘Right-Wing) closer to Nigel’s than Steve’s, Jim’s, and Dick’s.

Very, very worrying...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:04 PM

As I'm a product of 1960s and 70s hippy and punk counter culture,
I'm a bit allergic to being categorised..

I'm obviously some sort of lefty..

Voting Labour is in my old fashioned working class family DNA,
and reinforced by half a century of my own serious political analysis..

But my views vary in degrees of left or right depending
on each separate important issue...

I'm definitely very left on social and employment issues,
but my stance on law 'n' order is hardline severe enough
to make most tories uncomfortable...

The worst thing in my opinion about voting Labour,
the main impediment to getting Labour to kick the tories out of power,
is the Labour Party...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:56 PM

I think you’re my brother by a different mother, pfr - you pretty much summed me up right there, on every point. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:07 PM

BWM - you old punk hippy [slightly righty] lefty...!!!

Next, Nigel and bonz admit they aren't really that different to us..???

Then Nigel lists his favourite punk LPs..

Life is sometimes full of surprises...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:11 PM

I am not convinced that Starmer will kick them out, does he appeal to sufficient working class voters, will blue collar brexiteers vote for him or johnson?i hope so but i would not put money on it, it could partly be how bad the economy is? then the system of voting does not help the labour party and liberal party split the centre and centre left and left vote in england in scotland how will the snp do will labour get back any scottish votes doubtful? or likely? hard to predioct at this stage

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:24 PM

The [selfish...???] Scots gave Labour a nasty nationalist kicking,
and it's been all downhill from then on...

Funnily enough, my Welsh Valleys mrs,
who is well into Celtic Girl Power,
truly believes Nicola Sturgeon would be the best Labour PM we'll never have...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 04:47 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:06 AM

Nicola Sturgeon could also really help the Conservative party.
Although Th Conservative and Unionist Party doesn't want Scotland to separate from the UK (politically), if it did, The Conservatives would lose 6 MPs, but the total number of MPs would reduce by 59. That would make the Conservative majority in Parliament even greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

Wouldn’t there have to be a General Election in the remaining parts of the United Kingdom, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM

I mention it because the United Kingdom would no longer exist, nor would Great Britain. A new political union would, presumably, take the place of what we now recognise as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It seems reasonable to assume that a new political union would require a new government, does it not? In which case, you might be guilty above of counting your chickens before they hatch, don’cha think? If ‘a week is a long time in politics‘, you can be assured that several years is a very great deal longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:45 AM

I think in this instance Nigel is correct.

If Scotland were to leave the union we would see a conservative government in what remained of the UK for a considerable period.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

Well I think you might be right, Raggy. But for different reasons to the one Nigel seemed to be suggesting.

If I read Nigel right, he was suggesting that the 59 Scottish MPs would simply disappear into a black hole, leaving the balance of power between the English, Welsh, and Northern Ireland MPs precisely as it currently is. I’m suggesting that Scotland leaving the Union would necessarily result in the Union’s dissolution, and that with the formation of a new Union between England, Wales and NI, there would have to be an election to form a government.

Whilst I agree that, for one reason and another, we are unlikely to see a Labour government for quite some time, I believe that to expect an even larger Tory majority (as Nigel is apparently suggesting will be the case) is to count the chickens before they hatch.

Politics is a funny old business. Who, for instance, would have expected a mass defection amongst traditional Labour voters to the Tories? Having defected once, they could quite easily defect back, especially when they’ve seen the Tories’ disastrous handling of Covid-19 with its hugely disproportionate death-toll and the unemployment it will bring, plus their reaction remains to be seen when the true scale of the horror of Brexit becomes clear in a year or two.

The Tories’ tactics are always ‘Smash and Grab, then leave Labour to clear up the mess’ - I reckon we’re around half-way through the ‘Smash and Grab’ phase right about now, and the slide will begin after they’ve won the next GE, but with a reduced majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:38 AM

Politicians are ambitious by definition and nature..

Wonder how Sturgeon would react to this offer..

"You can be leader of an independent Scotland, or PM of the entire UK"...???

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM

Are you getting a lot of gaslighting over in the UK like the Trump folks do routinely here in the US? Our latest illustration of this was AG Barr appearing before Congress and lying through his teeth about things they asked. I didn't watch the whole thing, just excerpts, but I'm guessing he wasn't sworn in or he'd have been perjuring himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

Fingers crossed, pfr! ;-)

Although to be fair, my Border Terrier talks more sense than the Fat Blond Buffoon currently occupying 10, Downing Street. And he’s a lot better looking than Johnson too!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

A Labour coalition govt with a pack of dogs,
couldn't be worse than the current occupant of 10 downing st,
and his cabinet...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 05:55 AM

Let me try again then, and keep it simple.
If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.
That would not be an easy task.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

I've never had any inclination to play "Fantasy Football",
but if I get the gist of the basics..

What about an expedient Labour / SNP coalition Govt..

With Sturgeon as PM, and starmer as deputy PM..???


Is it feasible under the rules, and could it work, at least long enough,
to kick the tories out of power...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM

”If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.“

I’ll also try again and, as you failed to understand last time, I’ll also keep it simple...

If, and it’s a very big ‘if’, Scotland left the Union, it wouldn’t be for at least a couple of years. A lot can happen in a couple of years, and forecasting the result of an ensuing general election at least two years ahead goes well beyond even the most optimistic crystal-ball-gazing.

I’m in Scotland on holiday next August. Could you weave your magical skills as a soothsayer and tell me what the weather will be doing - it’s only a year ahead, should be simple for someone with your powers. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:58 AM

trump could claim to be the true King of Scotland,
and build an extension to Hannibal's Wall..

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

..errrmm.. of course I meant Hadrian's Wall...

There's too many walls named after ancient blokes beginning with an H...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

One Nun Dead!