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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

DMcG 23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM
Raggytash 22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM
Raggytash 22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM
Donuel 22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM
The Sandman 22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM
Rain Dog 20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM
The Sandman 20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM
SPB-Cooperator 20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM
Jos 19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM
Jos 19 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 21 - 07:10 AM
Raggytash 19 Jun 21 - 06:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jun 21 - 04:41 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 21 - 03:10 AM
DMcG 18 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM
DMcG 18 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jun 21 - 10:20 AM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jun 21 - 09:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jun 21 - 09:03 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 21 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jun 21 - 02:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jun 21 - 02:11 PM
The Sandman 17 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 21 - 04:30 AM
The Sandman 17 Jun 21 - 03:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 21 - 03:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jun 21 - 08:43 PM
DMcG 16 Jun 21 - 03:32 AM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Jun 21 - 05:08 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

The return of roaming charges?

It will be interesting to see if O2 backs down, or the other providers follow them in restoring charges.

I remember being assured in posts to earlier versions of this thread that this was another unfounded 'Project Fear'-style claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM

Yes Dick he is. But that has no place ,even if it were relevant, on the one thread we're allowed about UK politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM

he is talking about pr, it is being introduced in usa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM

Donny - quick, a UFO has landed in the other thread.
The visitors were looking for you,
with an important message only you can comprehend.
They were starting to look a bit impatient like they've been stood up.
Quick before you miss them...!!!

Now back to British political matters...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM

Try it you might like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM

Just why is that posted on a Brexit & other UK politics thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM

NYC is trying out Rank Based voting in the primary for the Mayor election. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM

The other problem with the poll is that it does not separate dogma from informed opinion. For the survey to have any real value the answer needs to be qualified and the way to pick up the people in the middle would be a further question: -   Please give your reasons why you believe Brexit is NOT going well or badly. An example might be that UK has control of its fishing waters (well) versus UK has lost most of its market for selling fishing catches (badly).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM

I tend to look much more at the drivers for leave - both from the tory and labour point of view. In the case of Labour, those who were driving it saw it as a step towards their revolutionary socialist ideals, while the conservative side was much more about realising capitalism from social responsibility. Again this is about the drivers, not the voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

string => striking


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

The commentary around the table of results (which is a bit buried in the middle) is propaganda, I would say. So I tend to focus on the table and largely ignore the surrounding text.

One of the reasons I said YouGov is unreliable is that a major bias in any survey is determining who you ask. Most YouGov surveys are based on filling in online questionnaires, so you suffer from all the 'self-selection' problems.

As we are coming up to the five year anniversary of the vote, ask "how's it going?" is quite a reasonable thing to ask.

I agree with Nigel that it is interesting that there is a string difference in the opinion of Conservative and Labour Leave voters. There are probably dozens of factors in play. One is that with the Conservatives in power, it is much harder for Conservative voters to say "this is going badly" whereas there is quite an incentive for Labour voters to say 'this is not the Brexit I voted for.'

A second one is that it is very likely that Labour Leave voters and Conservative Leave voters agreed that the UK should leave the EU, but they genuinely had different ideas about what should happened next. I suspect, but do not know of course, that many of the Labour Leaves felt it was the best way of protecting UK jobs (i.e. essentially protectionist), whereas many Conservatives were much more 'free market' inclined, and so opposed to protectionism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

its called propoganda or sometimes news


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM

Yes, they clearly use the headlines which will reflect their own views. "Just 25% of the British public think Brexit is going well".
Although that is clearly less than the alternate headline "Just 38% think Brexit is going badly".

By ignoring all those who say either "not going well nor badly" or "Don't know" any other option is never going to manage to make a big headway.

It's surprising the correlation between Conservative/Leave figures and Labour/Remain figures on the basis that this wasn't ever supposed to be a party political decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM

How is Brexit going?

Polls are always suspect, and YouGov more than most, but even so it is interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM

Jonathan Freedland in yesterdays Guardian

"Plot it on a graph and the change stares right back at you. Fifty years ago, parties of the left fared best among those with the least education and the lowest income, while the right flourished among those with the most of both. These days, the right still does well among the affluent, but on education the two camps have swapped places: these days, and far too crudely put, if you’re a graduate you vote left; if you’re not, you don’t."

And
Thursday’s byelection result will prompt a lot of excited talk of what educated, progressive voters might do if they join together. But it will never be enough. The harder truth is that those who want change will have to speak to voters about the things they, the voters, care about, and in a way that makes sense to them. It will require discipline and coherence, even from those who think they’re doing noble work “widening the debate” or “raising awareness”, when in fact they’re just making progressives look weird. There is no short cut – via Chesham and Amersham or anywhere else."


Jonathan Freedland


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

Opps! Thread, not threat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

The main problem with a two party system is they can put all sorts of stuff in their manifestos and claim that is what people demanded. We had a nice example just recently in this threat when Gina Millar was given as an example of how individuals could hold governments into account, while apparently unaware the manifesto for the winning party in 2019 included a commitment to 'rebalance' rights to make it possible to stop any such 'politics by other means'. (Admittedly, they did add a whole pile of fluff and chaff disguising how to achieve that, but they did make that a clear objective.)

Sometimes, I think I am the only one that reads manifestos ...

Anyway, having a two party system would amplify that: how do you say that you do not want the objectionable stuff in the manifesto? Especially if the other side had different but equally objectionable stuff?

My personal preference is for a large number of parties, and I would have liked to see a pro-Brexit Tory and a pro-EU Tory on the ballots in each constituency (ditto for Labour) so that we elected a pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit House without needing a referendum at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM

Btw..

I've suggested it before,
and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a two party system might be more effective..

However you name it, or label each opposing party,
voters would need to be honest with themselves and pick a side.

Individuals stubbornly posturing as centrists,
would need to do some serious heart searching thinking;
and decide which side they actually lean towards by the narrowest margin...

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, obviously..

(Single issue obsessed militant activists would still be a distracting divisive pain in the arse..)

But it might be better than our present charade of democracy...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm..

John Bercow.. next Labour leader and prime minister...???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM

i agree that there are advsntages and disadvantages to the different PR systems , but it is indisputable that with two social democratic opposition parties the liberals and the present labour party ,the opposition is split . tactical voting in chesham defeated the conservatives.
i have never voted liberal in my life but they are different from the conservatives in that they are pro european, and they are the party that consistently suffers with first past the post election system


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM

The whole debate on voting systems is complex, and it is worth getting your head round Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. However, it is also important to understand this theorem does not say FPTP is better.

Over-simplifying, the theorem says all voting systems have flaws. But, recognising where and how and how severely they go wrong, you can choose a system ;with open eyes' to its limitations.

I head a great lecture by John Curtice a month or two back explaining how FPTP has failed to achieve what its supporters claim with any reliability for decades now. Hid did not recommend any specific voting system, but he did say many of the claimed benefits of FPTP are spurious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

Letter to Starmer from a member of the working class.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM

I prefer preferential vote systems as it maintains constituencies voting for their representative,,, and also addresses progressive votes being split so that constituents can reject an incumbent without having to vote tactically and a candidate winning a seat in spite of two thirds of voters being against them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM

well the "country" is the electorate

It isn't just the electorate though. It is the companies that employ and pay people. It is the transport infrastructure. It is those who maintain national parks and other treasures. All those and many more have to have their best interests protected too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM

it is partly a fault of first past the post, the two social dmocratic parties, liberal[pale pale pink] and labour[ pale pink] have their vote split, divide and rule


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM

What a depressing solution to a depressing problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM

Then you need to vote for the candidate who is most likely to defeat the candidate youe want least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM

If there is no candidate standing in my constituency that I would wish to vote for, that does not mean that I have decided that I don't care who represents me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:10 AM

well the "country" is the electorate [including [those who choose not to vote , they have decided they do not care who represents them]


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 06:27 AM

Oh I don't know Dave, I'd be quite happy for you to have that pension and the free beer and the last bit would be brilliant!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:41 AM

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them

Not really, Dick. My best interests would be to have a state pension of £50,000 per annum, free beer and a ban on idiots posting on the internet. It is not the countries best interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 03:10 AM

Conservative majority overturned by a party that is pro european


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM

Not really. The delay in setting up the commission is almost certainly covid related, so does not need much more commentary.

When Gina brought her case, there is not the slightest doubt that the Government would have stopped the proceedings if they could. The paragraph is in the manifesto, in my opinion, to ensure that if any similar situation arose, they could do so. I can see no other reasonable explanation why it is present.

I feel little reassurance in the promise of a Commission where the Government selects who is a member and whose report is quite possibly only advisory, leading to some Bill that gives Parliament or a Government appointed body the power to stop cases that are felt to be "conducting politics by other means".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM

DMcG:
Presumably your quote has answered your own question:
In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come up with proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates


Of course it appears that that commission has yet to be set up, but Covid has intervened.
That commission would appear to supersede the Electoral Commission, and the prior removal of the Electoral Commission may be required to allow the Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission to be brought into place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions

It has been, yes. Which is no doubt part of the reason the Conservative election Manifesto for 2019 said

We will ensure that
judicial review is available to protect
the rights of the individuals against an
overbearing state, while ensuring that
it is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays. In our first year we will set
up a Constitution, Democracy &
Rights Commission that will examine
these issues in depth, and come
up with proposals to restore trust
in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates.



Which of course immediately raises the question who gets to decide if an action like Gina's is fair or abusing the courts] to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice.

No, that is not a choice I am making. But as I pointed out, the Electoral Commission have not shown themselves suitable to hold such powers.

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice. it is definitely not mine unless the entire population has the right to break electoral law without fear of prosecution.

I would be equally disgusted if this was proposed by Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, Buckethead or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

It is an essential tenet of democracy that those who breach electoral law must be held to account.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:20 AM

The link to the Independent says:
Boris Johnson is to strip the Electoral Commission of the power to prosecute law-breaking, just weeks after it launched an investigation into his controversial flat refurbishment.

The watchdog has been threatened with curbs ever since it embarrassed senior Tory figures by fining Vote Leave for busting spending limits for the Brexit referendum.


I do wonder why "The Electoral Commission", a body responsible for "integrity and transparency of party election finance" was conducting an inquiry into the payment for the PM's flat.
Possibly claims that they are a party political body, and acting beyond their remit, are correct.
Their action against "Vote Leave" following the referendum was judged by the High Court to have been because Vote Leave acted on guidance given to them by The Electoral Commission themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:50 AM

Another slide down the slippery slope towards fascism.

If governments cannot be scrutinised and held to account for wrong doing, it is another nail in the coffin for democracy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/electoral-commission-boris-johnson-flat-b1868407.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_med


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:03 AM

.. but the best interests of people who vote tory,
is far from compatable with the best interests of the country..

.. that's the problem...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:50 AM

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them, that is their constituents is it not? it is not the intersts of multinationals who pay them a retainer who have effectively bought the MP.
NOT THE BEST INTERST OF THE COUNTRY AND THE BEST INTERST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:00 AM

MPs should represent the best interests of the country, Dick. Just pandering to what their constituents say is populism and that has landed us in the shit we are in today. I do agree about FPTP although I am not sure if PR is the best alternative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:11 PM

Voting in a Tory MP,
is like trusting Winnie-the-Pooh with the keys to a honey cupboard...


.. (that's a family friendly version metaphor)..


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM

that is difficult to achieve, with gerry mandering and first past the post and mps who represent corporations as well as their constituents. mps are elected to represent the constituents that gave them a majority not represent other outside interests


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:30 AM

Just a decent government, Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:19 AM

A revolution is needed


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:13 AM

That really is scary, PFR :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 08:43 PM

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/outsourcing-morality-dido-harding-wants-the-top-job-at-the-nhs/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 03:32 AM

An excellent example of weasel words here, talking about the Australian deal.
"It contained “the strongest possible provisions for animal welfare”, the prime minister argued, telling journalists: “We had to negotiate very hard.”
So you are meant to read that as the provisions are strong. But it does not say that at all. It simply says they were the best we could get given the desperation to get a deal. An absolutely terrible set of provisions could still be the 'strongest possible'.
In short, you are supposed to focus on the word 'strongest', whereas you should really be focusing on 'possible'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:08 PM

Part of me (wrongly) holds the view that as this is a total f-up my Johnson, the delta variant should be allowed to run rampant (already nudging 200,000 - 250,000 new cases per month compared with 10,000 this time last year) through the c0mmnity rather than inconvenience us. It is Johnson's problem so Johnson should sort it out while we get on with our lives - I know pandemics don't work that way. IT would also mean that any rise in hospitalisations and excess deaths is Johnson problem alone. Even though these numbers are currently low, it can take two weeks to a mpnth for these figures to follow the new infections curve.

Also,as Johnson knew about the risk back in the end of May, it can be safely assumed that cabinet office, senior NHS employees and Health Department officers also knew about this, and should be thrown in prison for failing to leak this to the media.


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