BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 01:41 PM

"Not all psychopaths or narcissists are evil but some are."

But all can be a persistent pain in the arse...!!!


When I was young and misguided I protested at repressive new UK legislation
criminalizing nature's own freely growing magic mushrooms..

Now I'm older and a little bit wiser, I accept and support this law..

Teenage curiosity and experimentation is a prerequisite for development of reason,

But teenagers need to be protected from the darker dangerous extremes,
where their curiosity and experimentation can lead them

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 06:14 PM

"As an advocate of mental health I do believe mushrooms deserve a second or third look. They are impressive even after a 20 year hiatus."

There is no way, in that case, that you can be any kind of advocate of mental health.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:49 PM

It's understandable if someone isn't aware of recent developments. One article on psilocybin: Clinical potential of psilocybin as a treatment for mental health conditions There are loads more.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:53 PM

But taking into consideration what PFR said, the use of psilocybin is generally administered in a controlled, supervised environment, not buying a bag of 'shrooms off your friend's cousin.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:10 PM

Well aware of claims for "Clinical potential of psilocybin as a treatment for mental health conditions "

.. under specialist professional controlled clinical conditions...

But reality for mass majority of UK youth hallucinogenic substance experimentation
is too far removed from this ideal safe legal clinical supervised drug treatment..

Drug crime gangs love this kind of academic legitimisation for their business promotion
to impressionable teenagers...

Yeah.. 40 odd years ago we were also easily convinced
by older cooler clever student peers
that cannabis and mushrooms were safer than alchohol and tobacco...

Some of my old mates from those days, the ones not dead, still remain fucked in the head...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:12 PM

Jeri - didn't see your second post while I was writing...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:55 PM

You didn't need to. Your brilliant post cut right through.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:56 PM

Happens to me all the time.
I remember hearing this on NPR last year, I believe: Fresh Air, on psychedelics.

Anything that works, can be abused. I think psychogenic drugs have a greater potential than others.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 01:21 AM

Without clicking on it I can guess that is her interview with Michael Pollan - it was very interesting and I heard it repeat recently.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 06:21 AM

The other issue that has come to the fore is racism, or as a person I know calls it the REAL religion of Whiteyanity. Its the Trump base that has been around calling itself born again, evangelist and prosperty faith by REAL Americans. Catholics have their share of Whiteyics but are in a different sub set imho. Of course racism exists in a tribal mentality outside of the confines of most world Re-Ledgends. Through my eyes Jews are not immune from rascim.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 07:02 AM

FaceBook somehow makes money on nazi forums discussing the real reasons for safely blowing up Nashville with a broken down motor home for the fascist cause...
not to be confused with fact-cious causes.
A Fact-cious cause: Racism today has the same prime mover as it did in the days of slavery -MONEY SAVED-

The anemic response by a few sport teams postponing a game in protest of racial murders are hailed as wonderful but I find it pathetic.
Its not fuuny that money is often the bottom line.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM

my remarks about narcissm were not aimed at anyone on this forum, as i understand it magic mushrooms are generally weaker than fly agaric, and yes aldous huxley experiments were under contreolled consditions . ithink that the way to achieve spirituality is not thougha mushroom or a pill . i also think that aristic creativity is not achieved through a pill or a mushroom.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 11:34 AM

To get back to Donuel's question: how can we restore reason? I suggest the following. There can be other ideas I haven't thought of.

Restore the science requirement for high school graduation.

Have English and social-science classes teach students how to recognize propaganda and manipulation.

I have read that common sense is learned at home, from the family. Get parents to put their phones down & get away from their screens and start teaching their children how to think.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: gillymor
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 02:30 PM

Start teaching Civics again as well. People need to learn how to be a good citizen, how government functions and that it's not a GD reality TV show.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 04:46 PM

start teaching children to think ahead to question to anticipate what other people might be doing to solve problems , there is a game that does this it is called chess

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:15 PM

Well, the concept of teaching children how to be good citizens sounds fraught. When you consider all the undemocratic nonsense that goes on, from Trumpist lying, populism, multinationals ruling the roost, unelected lobby groups having a stranglehold on elected politicians, mass media totally screwing/skewing national debate... So where do you pitch your citizenship teaching? Look out, you're being watched...

As for teaching children how to think, we've been there before. It's a grand aspiration but begod does it need a fair bit of fleshing out. The people who are currently teaching children to think are teaching children to think their way (see above paragraph). And I include organised religion in that. If you insist to children that almighty God created them and everything around, that they're miserable wretches who needed a "saviour," and that you may well be ostracised if you demur (and think beyond Christianity there), whilst at the same time wondering how you're going to confront all the bollix they pick up from social media and porn websites, well I think we may be in a little trouble. The simple message that believing anything you're told without evidence (no matter how plausible it sounds), is a dangerous path to take, and that you really should know the difference between evidence and bullshit, would be a good start. But, if you're a teacher, you'd better put that across furtively. Watch your back!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:28 PM

Incidentally, if citizenship "education" involves telling children to be loyal and patriotic, I'm not with you. Patriotism is fine as long as it's sentimental and no more. I'm a patriotic Englishman who loves his country of birth, etc., but ask me to point a gun at a foreigner, unless he's directly threatening me or my loved ones, and I'll soon tell you where to get off, whatever the cost to myself. Loyalty, to me, must be earned, never imposed as of right or tradition. You're not educating children if you make them salute a flag, chant a patriotic verse, sing the anthem or pray for God to bless the fatherland. That's the very opposite of education.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:33 PM

"Restore...have.. teach... get... start..." etc.

Indeed, all good ideas. Missing, of course, is the ubiquitous "How".

I tried...back up there somewhere... to suggest some sneaky ways to work in the beginnings of changed attitudes and practices without seriously disturbing the set-in-stone recalcitrant patterns of the fundamentalists in religion, politics and culture. I hope that some steps will be taken when Betsy DeVos leaves office in 2021.... not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:41 PM

That's it Bill. Easy words to say, valiant aspirations...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 07:26 AM

Yeah, Bill. If there was a "how," it would have happened long ago.

If a school board told parents that it wanted to teach their kids to reason effectively, most would be outraged that you were trying to "indoctrinate" children into "what to think" about their the parents' hot-button issues.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM

i was taught that life is shaped by the books you read and the people you meet. Having a reading difficulty associated with migraine I chose 'the people you meet'. It became a hobby to meet scientist pioneers, spiritual (civil rights) people and musicians.

Meeting remarkable people was far more rewarding and inspirational than any museum FIELD TRIP I ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:23 AM

The most fruitful cities to meet remarkable people for me was Boston NYC Chicago SF and Rochester NY.
Wash DC has been a bust.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM

I must say that I like the idea that teaching kids to play chess will solve the problems of fake news and alt truth. It has a unique irony to it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:38 AM

Thinking ahead is critical. To have an honest conversation about the future you have to have an honest conversation about the past.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:50 AM

If, to think ahead, you need to look at the past then surely retrospective vision is the critical element, Donuel. I think you may need to put more thought into that idea. Maybe I am just too forward thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:11 PM

re: remarkable people.

I met some in Kansas and once I moved here, I met more. 'Remarkable'. of course, doesn't necessarily mean famous, but some were quite well known. Because of folk music, I met some of the best folk musicians... from the Seegers (all 3 of the 'kids'), Jean Ritchie, Bob Beers, Bryan Bowers... and a dozen more.
Because of my civil rights involvement, I met many amazing people.
Because of my environmental concerns, I met several heads of the EPA...like Ruckleshaus.. and other 'remarkable' people.
And gee.. because of Mudcat, I have met many dozens more..including one Donuel, who has more interests than I can keep track of.. ;>)
   Why, I even 'met' and shook hands with Marion Berry at a street festival... though he barely acknowledged I was there.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 02:19 PM

Wanna teach somebody to think? Talk to them and use the subordinating conjunctions.

When I was in high school, I was required to memorize the list of subordinating conjunctions, even though my teacher acknowledged that requiring students to memorize was considered old hat. That list was of enormous help when I got to college and really had to think and write.

Years later I realized that the conjunctions, co-ordinating and subordinate, are the result of thousands of years of humans codifying events on our dynamic planet and within our complex societies.

Yes, there are kids who hardly ever hear thought-provoking sentences - kids who only get yelled at. They are not learning to think.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 03:12 PM

well i wished you a happy and healthy new yeqr.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 03:27 PM

Thqnk you

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 04:02 PM

I probably never mentioned my philosophy since it is a work in progress.
I never met Gurdjeiff but I met his wife on opening night of his dramaticized biography. Gurdjieff believed that people cannot perceive reality in their current condition because they do not possess a unified consciousness but rather live in a state of a hypnotic "waking sleep". "Man lives his life in sleep, and in sleep he dies."
In an ironic twist I used hypnosis to wake people up. (metaphoricly)
Gurdjeiff had practices to wake up consciousness such as stopping what ever you re doing and examining the moment, he called it the 4th way.

Nowadays we have an awareness of a probable unified conciousness as well as the internet. We are making progress...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 05:55 PM

I remember before the movie a devout Gurdjeiffian was telling his young sons it was sacriledge for them to have popcorn since it would distract their consciousness.
I enjoyed my popcorn.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 08:07 PM

All those interests... they are not concurrent. Most are historic.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 10:21 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

Well.. that's one I missed! From a brief perusal, I probably would have moved right on by like I did when presented with Benjamin Creme and Edgar Cayce
...or even George Hammond, who is in a class by himself.

"It takes all kinds."

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 05:11 AM

Its too bad George G's esoteric branch of Islam did'nt catch on.
It was a non violent form of Islam like the magical Cabalistic form of Judaism.

Whacko groups like QAnon could also use someone to do an inside job and defuse the worst tendancies of dangerous irrational extremists.

Ah Oh It sounds like I'm thinking like the CIA. oh well Social Engineering has its manipulative side

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 10:28 AM

Islam already has 3-4-5.. depending on how you count... branches. I can see why his branch floundered. (I wonder how 'traditional' Islam considered Malcolm X's?)
   Anyone can name their belief system in a way similar to some already established system, but capitalizing it...or even filing papers... doesn't somehow make it popular and/or influential.

Qanon seems to be merely a group. I doubt they are formally organized anywhere, any more than Ammon Bundy's bunch are.

Maybe I'll claim to the the founder of "T-anon" for "think-anon".

We could use a few million adherents.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 11:30 AM

Agreement.
The ethics pickle is lying for a well intentioned purpose, is still lying. What the CIA considered a well intentioned purpose is not my idea. (I don't know where this is going)

I can only suspect that other languaged species like Dolphin do not lie. Is lying a man made invention? If so we can uninvent it with law.

I thought this was settled by accepting 'white lies' and condemning the the dark fraudulent lies. Its out of control in the lying universe.

We oughtta...i dunno

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 11:36 AM

"To the living we owe respect, to the dead we owe the truth".
Quote: Voltaire

He got it wrong, the truth is wasted on the dead.
If you can't handle the truth by 21 you may as well be dead.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 11:45 AM

The only thing we have to fear is the lie itself.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 28 Dec 20 - 01:19 PM

Now, Donuel. We have lots to fear - Covid, tornadoes, gun fire, bombers, hurricanes...

Talk sense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 05:56 AM

Free association sometimes helps me think. Yesterday was a low energy day.
Free speech almost establishes the lie as a permanent feature. I am trying to find a way to villify the lie.
Perhaps it can not be done or wouldn't help if it could, but a guy can dream.
LIES
Pros: can fool an enemy.
Cons: can empower domestic evil.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM

I hate the way that the concept of free speech has been usurped by scoundrels who claim that it means you can say what you like, however threatening and hurtful. If we can't accept that freedom comes hand in glove with responsibility, we will eventually lose our freedoms altogether. Whilst we should be free to express the most ludicrous notions (such as my dad insisting that he could prove that the moon landings were filmed in Nevada), we shouldn't claim to be free to express notions that whip up hatred or prejudice, or which make people fearful or insecure. There's been plenty of wrangling over the First Amendment down the centuries (see mucho stuff on wiki), and, just as with the "bear arms" clause in the Second Amendment, the text has been pounced on and stripped of nuance by people of ill intent.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 06:45 AM

I liked that post!

Allow another real time poem

We tend to print all of the legends and lies and ignore the ugly truth.
The truth of our beauty is brief and the lifetime of lies is long.
The truth need not demand incontravertible proof.
Nor are all lies necessarily wrong.
It is because we are all mortal
That time is a locked portal.

Subject: RE:Bumper Sticker Wisdom by donuel
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

Villify the lie
Magnify the truth


The New Deal
Help is Real         (winner)


Austeriity
gave prosperity
to the rich

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 11:40 AM

Forget "War and Peace", set aside a day or two, or burn some midnight oil, put one's feet up and click through "WalkaboutsVerse"

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM

You'd think we like lying to each other starting with Santa Claus and his proposterous flying reindeer. What about fire bottomed chimney's?
Why do we do that to children?
Are we gauging their age of reason?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 12:03 PM

If I were you I would pay google the money to have WAV to be the first appearing result for searches for Travel guide books, poetry and Europe UK photography. Make $ on the ads that would attach and they might pay for more exotic trips. Mudcat is a dry hole in comparison.

Pay for the international plan and expect a loss for 3 months.
Make the site a guidepost to other sites and maks some of your 'poems' X rated if they are or not :^/

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

A lot of poetry is trite,
a lot of poetry is shite,
occasionally a poem might be quite alright,
sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bit,
good night...

pfr - best poet in primary school aged 11...

He held such promise and potential,
when did it all go so wrong.
How do kids turn out as adults ?
There is no rhyme or reason...

Funnily enough, when I was in my early 20s
I was on a long night time train journey
reading a 'modern' poem,
words which triggered a mushroom flashback..
A sensation of time standing still, and dislocation from reality..
Strange but not too frightening..

I think that was one of the last before my brain chemistry repaired sufficiently,
and recovered from teenage misadventures...

I'm worried America's brain chemistry will never heal,
All the rest of us poor buggers
are at the mercy of the biggest most dangerous nutcase in the world...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 01:47 PM

So Donuel -
The wise poet,
Who does know it -
We now can tell
Is quite a P.A...
And all without pay!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 01:56 PM

walkabout you remind me of mcgonagle
Welcome, sweet Christmas, blest be the morn
That Christ our Saviour was born!
Earth's Redeemer, to save us from all danger,
And, as the Holy Record tells, born in a manger.

Chorus --

Then ring, ring, Christmas bells,
Till your sweet music o'er the kingdom swells,
To warn the people to respect the morn
That Christ their Saviour was born.

The snow was on the ground when Christ was born,
And the Virgin Mary His mother felt very forlorn
As she lay in a horse's stall at a roadside inn,
Till Christ our Saviour was born to free us from sin.

Oh! think of the Virgin Mary as she lay
In a lowly stable on a bed of hay,
And angels watching O'er her till Christ was born,
Therefore all the people should respect Christmas morn.

The way to respect Christmas time
Is not by drinking whisky or wine,
But to sing praises to God on Christmas morn,
The time that Jesus Christ His Son was born;

Whom He sent into the world to save sinners from hell
And by believing in Him in heaven we'll dwell;
Then blest be the morn that Christ was born,
Who can save us from hell, death, and scorn.

Then he warned, and respect the Saviour dear,
And treat with less respect the New Year,
And respect always the blessed morn
That Christ our Saviour was born.

For each new morn to the Christian is dear,
As well as the morn of the New Year,
And he thanks God for the light of each new morn.
Especially the morn that Christ was born.

Therefore, good people, be warned in time,
And on Christmas morn don't get drunk with wine
But praise God above on Christmas morn,
Who sent His Son to save us from hell and scorn.

There the heavenly babe He lay
In a stall among a lot of hay,
While the Angel Host by Bethlehem
Sang a beautiful and heavenly anthem.

Christmas time ought to be held most dear,
Much more so than the New Year,
Because that's the time that Christ was born,
Therefore respect Christmas morn.

And let the rich be kind to the poor,
And think of the hardships they do endure,
Who are neither clothed nor fed,
And Many without a blanket to their bed.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 02:01 PM

...for comparison (I'm not allowed to copy/paste here): "Christmas Sung Simply"