BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:09 AM

I forgot to mention internet 'virtual world' gaming and associated chat rooms..

Research is clearly demonstrating the extent to which very young children
are being subjected to targeted far right hate propaganda;
being indoctrinated and recruited for the rest of their lives..

.. if the h!tler youth had access to "world wide web" 80 - 90 years ago,

imagine the outcome...???

Well. it's happening every second, all around the world, right now...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:56 AM

Like in Dr. Strangelove...'We must not allow a virtual digital fascist world gap'.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:07 AM

that's still a brilliantly good funny prescient movie..

hardly at all dated and redundant...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM

Another aspect of online exchanges, apart from the ability to hide behind anonymity and the fact that you can't see faces with all their gamut of expression, is that you don't hear nuance in people's voices. Most people seem far clumsier in expressing nuance in the typed word than they do face to face. Misunderstanding online can take a day or two to clear up, by which time the offendee may have decided to set their umbrage in stone. Face to face, it's cleared up in seconds if there's anything to clear up at all (or, rarely, there'll be wigs on the green). And, on top of all that, there's the ability to set up a false persona for yourself. Recognise that, Donuel? Never mind try a little tenderness, etc. Try a little straightforwardness, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:36 AM

Steve Shaw, the idea that teaching *little kids* requires making them want to learn is possibly the major problem. Kids can't *help* learning. They are little knowledge sponges. If you give them info, they will learn it. The idea that they have to be *entertained* even robs them of the sense of accomplishment one gets from making efforts. Effortful learning is intrinsically rewarding. School should require industry so kids develop into adults with industry. What we have instead is adults who require entertainment. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:40 AM

And older kids who are an international disgrace in math, science, language, arts and humanities.

But we sure can shoot guns.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:53 AM

More platitudes. I didn't say that "kids" need to be entertained. Entertainment can turn you into a passive recipient. True learning requires you to be an active collaborator in the process, not a mute copier-downer sitting on your arse sucking in "facts." A good classroom with a skilled and enthusiastic teacher provides the context. And that "classroom" isn't four walls either. Reason and logic have making connections as their sine qua non. You have to do that for yourself, you have to be enthused, and it's hard but pleasant work. Society's resource-poor prescription for what should be taught and how makes even the keenest teacher's job ten times more difficult. That's what's up. Suggesting lessons on thinking, reason and logic are suggesting sticking plasters.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:37 PM

What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?

Over the years we have seen different governments bemoan the state of education and saying how far behind the rest of the world that we are. They raise the school leaving age (handy sometimes if you want to keep the unemployment figures down) but little seems to change until the next education minister arrives.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:38 PM

Mrrzy, you're speaking the truth.

Steve in an effort to prove that it is needless to take umbridge online and ego is foolish, I started a pseudo arguement with you in your joke thread. Your refusal to see that, was probably due to your argumentative nature which is not a bad thing. It progressed all the way to legal threats, for that I am sorry. For years you argued about who I am not which could go on forever. Who I am is all that matters and it only matters to me.
In almost all other respects I admire and respect you as a person.
I will always have little interest in 'a pecking order'. Even Stilly became concerned that we had an actual animosity, well I don't anyway, so Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM

Ok class, look forward at the white board.. this list is how you must think and reason for yourselves..

The list underneath, is all the things you must not do and know.

Copy it all down and memorise the points for a test later...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM

Guess which list will be more popular.

but I got the point

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

My joke thread? Legal threats??

I don't do grudgy feelings towards people online, pal. This little world is far too two-dimensional for that. But you either can't or won't speak plainly in clear English and you frequently deal in convoluted cod science. It's in my nature to not mind telling you that when you do it. It's no more than you deserve in view of your daft and pointless little prods and pokes. You could help me to ignore you if you'd stop doing that.

"What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?"

Well, as they have followed different paths through school, have different talents and abilities (or disabilities) and all progress at different rates, there's no answer to that, is there? I could say a basic level of numeracy and literacy, but one student's good is another student's bog-standard is another student's impossible. I could say they should have a well-rounded, intelligent and sociable outlook on life, but, grand though that sounds, it's just waffle. I could say sympathy and tolerance for all other humans, and a high level of environmental consciousness, but ditto. I could say that the generations above them have the responsibility to pass on all the best of what they themselves have learned, so that the young 'uns can stand on the shoulders of giants, but gosh, that's mired in all sorts of murk, innit...


And, dammit, I haven't mentioned a brace or more of 'A' Levels under the belt yet...or that they should believe in God, like we've told 'em to...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:16 PM

I nearly said that my Donuel is like pfr's Dick, but thought better of it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:49 PM

My wife is an MA, from a good Uni, in Early Learning..

She's got 35 years experience teaching nursery/infants
in schools in 'disadvantaged' areas.
Parents with poor education and low aspirations.
Crime and drug related social and mental issues.
Cultural attitudes hostile to self-discipline and learning
Social media political brainwashing that teachers are marxist feminist enemy
who are plotting to demasculate boys..etc ..etc.. etc..

The kids are not blank slates by the time they start school..

As a caring dedicated [so far, not burnt out..] teacher,
she does as best she can to start them off in education...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:54 PM

I admit to not having read this thread. I'm not likely to, either.
But somebody wants to restore a re-birth. My question is, how do we teach people English? Or French? Or Frenglish?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM

Or is it Fremeriglish?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:18 PM

Ha who else would complain about not complaining :^)

This thread is supposedly about my exhortation to bring truth, science and sanity back after recent losses.

PFR you're lucky to have such a wonderful partner, but that was your plan I bet, you lucky bastard.
My wife is a Phd and one of many in charge of what medical research to undertake and how to afford it for the NIH and others.

In the meantime I will take the advice about being more straight forward and not get my tinsel in a twist this holiday. I'm celebrating with old projects.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:29 PM

The divorced wife of Jeff Bezos is giving nearly 4 billion dollars to higher education, colleges and HPCU's.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:59 PM

I knew her before she was a teacher,
when she was a care free student
with a lusty eye for the cool good looking bad boy
who played guitar in a punk band...

Who'd have thought he'd have grown up to look like me...!!!???

That's the first time I experienced someone stalking me..

..though I didn't know it at the time...

She's turned out of greater value to humanity,
than a lot of us will ever be...

She can't entirely predict an infants future.
But she tries her best against the odds
to give them a chance of having some slightly more positive options...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM

Pfr, my missus was also a special needs teacher (SENCO or summat, was it?) for many years in both primary and secondary. Before that she was a classroom teacher in an East End junior school (which had the most amazing head teacher, Doreen Clery, who is now a freeman of the city of London, qualified to drive a flock of sheep over London Bridge, only she ain't got no sheep...). We are still dear friends. I was a bog standard secondary science/biology teacher, first in the East End, then in Walthamstow (God help me), then in Holsworthy, Devon. My little sis, up in Yorkshire, is the head teacher of an infant school in a deprived area. Between us we saw the whole gamut of our education system (bar the parasitic private sector). Remembering about all that now, which is in our past apart from my sis, keeps us well grounded. You never lose that. Kudos to your missus (and mine too). What a sterling and largely unappreciated job they do...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:58 PM

A law against flagrant lieing in Congress should be equivalent to manslaughter.

After all Republicans passed a law to make lieing legal for financial institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:50 PM

i was married to a dedicated primary school teacher and have known other caring dedicated teachers, many of them end up defeated by the system and the adherence to the curriculum,to be succesful it would help if they had smaller classes, too often the government regards them as merely child minders, right now they are frontline workers, which is totally unnecessary. with a vaccine on the horizon schools should be closed, extra school term should be extended in the summer. the truth has surfaced the government regards them as child minders

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 04:35 PM

In the US there is a lot of treating teachers like babysitters too. I tried to sub in the public schools but they [school admins] refused to let me *teach* anything. I would sign up only for classes I could teach, and in those the students were willing to learn, but admin stopped them. And half the time they [admin] would switch me to classes whose content I couldn't teach, but if I complained, was told to stop trying to teach content.

I don't sub in public schools any more.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM

Yeah, the first thing that news bulletins do here, when schools are closed or classes are sent home because of coronavirus, is to wheel out parents whingeing about how inconvenient it is for them. We don't run schools for the convenience of parents offloading their precious offspring...do we??

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, without "content," there's nothing much to reason about.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 07:05 PM

Que?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 10:09 AM

The recently divorced wife of Amazon's Jeff Bezos has given 4.15 BILLION to higher educationand universities.
thats a healthy start.   https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/12/15/22176710/mackenzie-scott-bezos-philanthropy-speed-four-billion

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 02:00 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM
and |From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:53 AM

Steve: regarding your dismissal of "teaching kids to think"... I don't disagree at all with what you say about what SHOULD be done, but I think it's mostly details about 'how' to go about it. I certainly don't advocate spelling out any 'Here's how to think' rules to kids of any age... that soon looks like 'WHAT to think'. If "...question everything you tell them. To demand evidence." etc. are done well, yes.. logic WILL take care of itself.
At some point..perhaps in college ... some will, as I did, look for the basis and historical concepts behind what they already know.
   Also, there will always be pressure from some quarters (yes, fundamentalist religion) to NOT think and question. This pressure is very strong in many families and causes parents to complain about school and books differing from the 'truth' they get in church. I'm not sure what can be done about that except to hope that something will 'rub off' from others in their school.
Thousands of years of the very idea of 'divine knowledge' will not be overcome quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 03:25 PM

Teaching people to question authority will be helpful during repressive and progressive times. If one has ever experienced Magic mushrooms, lsd or Akashic knowledge, the exerience of God can be a valuable experience even for your average Joe athiest.

There have been martyrs to the mind body connection revolution since the 60's. Today things are on the path of becoming better.
Education, transendence, independence and freedom are all quite appealing and necessary for a reason renaissance. It seems obvious but needs to be said aloud.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 03:59 PM

Proposing everyone should take magic mushrooms
is dangerous bollox...

I grew up as a teenager in the magical mushroomy kingdom of South West England..
So do know this from experience, mine and local fried brain psilocybin casualty mates and acquaintances...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 06:23 PM

I do my bit by dropping in on devious websites and making sensible remarks. For example, a recent video about a piddling 3.1 earthquake near Wichita was illustrated with a pic of a fractured highway.

I posted, "A weak 3.0 earthquake would not crack a highway like that, and the plants on the verge do not grow in Wichita. This picture was taken in a western desert."

When so-called Christians post landslides and floods, saying that they portend the end of the world, I post a post saying that these are normal, if not common, events on our dynamic planet.

A security video from an eastern country purported to show a mother abandoning her baby. I studied it closely and said, Look closely. I think that's a man.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 06:42 PM

Good perspective there, Bill. We do generally agree...

As for "questioning authority", I'm not too happy with that concept. It can get your head cut off or get you thrown in jail, or lose you your job, depending on where you live. You're not much use to anyone in either case. As I'm no anarchist, I prefer to think that challenging ideas and asking for evidence is the way to go. Or, at least, a start. Those questions can be addressed to the bloke in the pub or the man on the Clapham omnibus as well as those "in authority." Before you do any of it, it pays to check your facts and make sure you're on solid ground. And have friends.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 08:52 PM

I can question authority of a judge, teacher or a politician. A policeman is a different animal usually unconcerned with your civil rights so come on and be real. A politician, not to be confused with a crook, is someone like ourselves who is willing to stick their neck out.
Kids aren't interested in what they are told as much as what they see. If there is one thing you could repeat is that evil is caused by ignorance. A better way to convey 'question authority' is to say "Don't look up at people. Don't look down on people. See them evenly and you will see life fairly".

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM

My excuse is I live too far away from London,
out in the arse end of SW England,
but I've only just discovered James O'Brien...

..intelligence, education, and reason versus conformist stupidity and ignorance...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 09:44 PM

Yep.. 'questioning authority' requires knowing when to do it directly or quietly in your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 10:02 PM

"or quietly in your mind."

.. yes.. that's the tricky one..

.. the mouth might stay sealed, but body language and attitude is a dead giveaway..

.. over time, a bolshie bloke gets used to being unemployable...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 08:26 AM

"As I'm no anarchist, I prefer to think that challenging ideas and asking for evidence is the way to go."

Those are very consistent with Anarchist ways of thinking and behaving. But it needs a lot of patience.

The frightening thing about the Trump followers is that most of them actually appear to find him someone to admire. For people to line up behind a leader much of the time means making a warts and all decision to put up with the less pleasant stuff they because on balance that seems a better choice.

But what's sick is when the attraction is to the warts themselves rather than the balancing factors. It's one thing when people put up with a leader being responsible for doing terrible things, or mean and nasty things, along with perhaps lowering unemployment, or building great enterprises - but it's something else when the terrible or nasty things are seen as admirable in themselves. "Evil, be thou my good."

If that's actually how it is in the States with Trump followers it's a sad prospect. It'll take a lot of patient work at an individual level to talk them down from the edge of the cliff, because they are clearly a very frightened bunch, and all the more dangerous for that.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 11:19 AM

It has always been my belief that 'most' Trumpites support him for what he does...or claims to be doing... and not for himself.
Polls have supported this, often showing that more people intend to vote for him than actually approve of him personally.

Recently, some religious fundamentalists have begun to pull back, after realizing that he didn't really 'believe' what they did, but was merely using them by giving lip-service to them.
But white nationalists, gun nuts and far-right Libertarians saw in his policies exactly what they needed to become more pushy.

   Yes, McGrath.. the warts are exactly what they like. Many of them know he was an incompetent fool... but they milked him for what they could get.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 12:53 PM

"It has always been my belief that 'most' Trumpites support him for what he does...or claims to be doing... and not for himself."

That has been my general assumption - the alternative, that half the population of the USA needed to be exorcised, was too depressing, and intrinsically improbable. But polls that indicate something like 80% of his voters believing his crazy claims about a massive voting fraud conspiracy, has threatened that optimistic assumption.

I'm hoping that after January 20 things might quieten down, and there'll be a return to sanity. There's a hymn, taken from a poem by the Quaker poet Whittier that expresses what I'd hope:

"Dear Lord and Father of mankind,
Forgive our foolish ways!
Reclothe us in our rightful mind,
In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise."

Perhaps they might try singing that in those evangelical churches, and reflecting on the words.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 12:58 PM

I've skimmed through this topic and searched this page - re: teaching kids to think, I think the concept some of you were looking for is the teaching of critical thinking skills. This is not teaching kids what to think, but to question the sources and arrive at what appears to be The Truth, or a part of the truth, at any rate.

It's something a lot of students don't come across until they're in college, and even there don't necessarily learn how to apply those skills, but once learned, you are forever a skeptic and looking behind statements to see if the sources are reasonable or not. To see if it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 01:49 PM

Stilly - when I weas a teenager in the 1970s,
we had the benefit of hippy and punk counter-culture
informing the music we listened to,
and the youth media magazine articles we read..

This was entirely outside of straight establishment school education.
That's how a lot of us acquired such positive life long skills..

sceptisism, cynicism, iconoclasm, mistrust of authority..

It was because I'd already acquired these skills.
which lead me to go back into education at 22,
specifically choosing a Humanities degree subject
which would further hone that skill set...

Sadly, since I was a student in the early 80s.
Society has become far more conservative,
deliberately combatting and mostly defeating counter culture influences on young minds.

Replacing it with conformism, irrational fear of 'the different',
and hostility towards any humanist progressive idealism...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:23 PM

"..teaching of critical thinking skills" is pretty similar to 'sneakily teaching how to think' that I'd like to see. I made a specific point that directly teaching **what to think** was to be avoided.
Stilly... since you are in Texas, I'm sure you are aware of both techniques being used in different ways and circumstances. I know that in Kansas both could be found in the same school. I once ended up in Mr. William's 6th period science class in the 8th grade, which every year got the 'honor' of parroting the biblical narrative in the Christmas program... "And there were in those days, shepherds.." etc...
   We got no option to opt out... I'm not sure what would have happened if anyone tried. I was still a couple of years from even worrying about it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:28 PM

"sceptisism, cynicism, iconoclasm, mistrust of authority.."

No wonder they don't want the vaccine.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM

Maybe...???

Such skills can unfortunately be appropriated and misdirected for evil purposes...

Weird reversals and inversions have been occurring in the last few years,
thanks to the sinister agendas of the libertarian right...

Not helped by a new generation of young lefties,
and identity politics militants,
now becoming the puritanical control freak authoritarian establishment,
for libertarians to rail against...

..the left version of the Victorian morality Mary Whitehouse brigade...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 03:41 PM

I liked the sound of the new deal. Succinct, a new start and honest.

New Deal 2? naw
Make middle class rich again? naw
Proof and Truth ? meh
People over Corps.   mmm no
4th quarter win? absolutely not
Beer and TV? been there like bread and circus.
Victory for Truth?
The Better Idea
Do your best
Back to the people.
A new start

What ever. names matter

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 03:58 PM

This is an interesting thread, provoking all kinds of related thought, to the extent that I can follow it.

I had to go look up a line that I like in a book by Brenda Wineapple quoting Thomas Wentworth Higginson, abolitionist and activist, in reference to the necessity or efficacy of compromise; I will paraphrase: There are those who have been insisting that 2 plus 2 equals 6 but will now offer a compromise and concede that 2 plus 2 equals 5.

This discussion brings to mind what I used to consider while hanging over the crib of my sleeping baby: What do I want for this child? Do I want her to be smart and prosperous and beautiful and rich? Or is my wish for her to be a person who is curious, who has a questioning mind, is empathetic, one who balances justice with mercy, someone who is intelligent and clear minded, someone who needs people but at the same time is aware that the most essential things are in her own head...

I got lucky. My daughter is most of those things.


Steve Shaw's

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:56 PM

I am reminded of a song from a book, relating a version of Sleeping Beauty, when the last fairy comes and says You have not given this baby any actual gifts. Beauty, a pleasant singing voice etc are for *others* so that they will love her. But my gift [of enchanted sleep with marvelous dreams] is for her and her alone.

The song is a lament: I am the one called Sleeping Beauty / I never answer to that name / for I am a slave to love and duty / it was the kiss that brought the chain.

Basically the prince's kiss "for which I did not ask" woke her to pain and childbirth and other earthly sorrows, ah if only she could have stayed in her gifted sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 05:05 PM

Mrrzy, you bring to mind a short story I once wrote where the protagonist is a fairy who, as a result of an unfortunate encounter with a caterpillar and loses her wings, wakes up and finds herself a human being. She is informed by a used-to-be fairy that there is a way to return to fairydom if she wishes, and she has to decide.

For a long time I didn't finish the story because I literally couldn't make the decision for her. Until the day I discovered that I had written an analogy.

Fairydom was/is childhood. Humandom is adulthood.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 05:50 PM

Sorry, guys. Please continue.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, great story!