Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 AM

folk blues, is not jazz it is folk music,, american folk music,
folk rock is a misnomer it is folk music performed generally with amplification, it bears little resmblance to rock and roll, and uses folk music as its material therefore it is amplified folk music

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 AM

blues only becomes jazz when the 12 bar structure is improvised on

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:11 AM

dave the gnome , no,
not ruining folk music but ruining the enjoyment of someone who wishes to hear folk music, it maybe a competently perfomed version of rave on, but if the audience member went to hear willy of the winesbury, he she might have had a ruined evening.
you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly, it is rather like advertising martin carthy and you substitute him with andy caven. a good way to piss off your audience.[ andy caven performed buddy holly songs well] but that is not what most people had come expecting

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:28 AM

Dick, it is because of ridiculous statements like you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly that I no longer interact with you but let us clear up that point. I have never assumed anyone likes anything. I only know what I like. If I go to a concert, I expect the concert artist(s) to perform what they are best at. If I go to a session, I like to hear competently performed music. If I go to a singaround I usually hear a good mix of styles and standards. Some I like, some I don't but overall I enjoy myself and try not to criticise what other people do.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:37 AM

not ruining folk music but ruining the enjoyment of someone who wishes to hear folk music, it maybe a competently perfomed version of rave on, but if the audience member went to hear willy of the winesbury, he she might have had a ruined evening.
you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly, it is rather like advertising martin carthy and you substitute him with andy caven. a good way to piss off your audience.[ andy caven performed buddy holly songs well] but that is not what most people had come expecting
Says the man who happily included My little nicotine gal in his set at the Folk Club I go to.
By the way it is polite to use capital letters when writing peoples names

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:49 AM

Dave, it is not a ridiculous statement to expect jazz in a jazz club country and western in a country club, if i pay to go to a folk club i go expecting to hear what has been advertised., if it is Martin Carthy, i do not want to hear him sing Rave On, I WANT TO HEAR HIM PERFORM TRAD MATERIAL
if i am being paid to perform ,i have to listen to everything, that is part of the job. Ido not critices what other people do ,but i reserve the right to pick and choose what music i wish to listen to,
i could guarantee in 1970, that if i went to a singers night the standrd would be high and nobody sang buddy holly songs, they sang what are generally classfied as folk songs, the standrd was higher and the venues were packed.
is it coincidence that clubs are emptier now, is it because of anything goes material? or is it because some singers do not practise? i do not know neither do you. what i do know ,is that these days i would be selective before i visited a folk club .
in 1970, i could guarantee going to for example farnigham folk club on a singers night or the fighting cocks in kingston and the standrd was high regardless of booked guest.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:58 AM

The ridiculous statement is "you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly". End of story.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:01 AM

Guest, Charles that song was a request,
It is however a well written song, that i consider a contemporary folk song[ just my opinion] SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED
Ihad a gal, a rare nice gal, down in Wroxham way
She were whooly nice ter me in the ole school days.
She would smile all the while, but Daddy dint know all
What she used ter say ter me behind the garden wall.
'Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight, boy?'
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Then one day, she went away, I dunt see har no more,
Till by chance, I see har down along th' Mundesley shore.
She wuz there, twice as fair, would she now be trew?
So when she see me passin' by she say 'I'm glad thass yew,
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?'
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Now yew'll see har an' me never more t'part,
We would wander hand in hand tergether in the dark.
Then one night I held har tight in th' ole back yard,
But when I tried to hold har close, she say 'Now hold yew hard!
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

By and by we decide on th' weddin' day,
So we toddle orff ter chatch ter hear the preacher say:
'Do yew now tearke this vow ter honour all the time?'
Afore I had th'chance ter stop har, she begin ter pine:
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Now the doctor tell me a Daddy I will be,
So when I arsk him 'Woss th' score?' he say 'There's only three'
So, here I go, cheerioo, ter see how she do fare,
I know what she will say ter me as soon as I git there:
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:47 AM

Guest, Charles that song was a request,
It is however a well written song, that i consider a contemporary folk song[ just my opinion]SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED

Ah I think I get the idea,it is OK to sing a a song if You consider it to be a contemporary folk song,but not songs Dave thinks are contemporary folk songs.

SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED (No need to shout, I'm not deaf)
If it was requested yes,I don't recall you saying it was a request.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:57 AM

If it was requested yes,I don't recall you saying it was a request.
I'll rephrase that slightly,
If was a request of course you should have sung it. ,I don't recall you saying it was requested.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:21 AM

must have been many years ago,9 years?kiveton park? i cannot even remember it. now.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:43 AM

This is the main bone of contention, Charles. I think that the traditional meaning of folk is pretty much accepted. It is when we get to what goes on around the edges that there arguments start. I have no idea if Nicotine Gal is an acceptable song at a folk club. Not my cup of tea but performed well it is witty and I would be happy with it. What about John Denver stuff? What about a folk club performer doing "Superstition" in a folk or blues style? What about Les Barker parodies? A lot of this is down to personal taste, regardless of how good (or bad!) it is. One thing I am with Dick on is that there are floor singers who should not be performing when people have paid to see a professional or semi-pro guest. At out club we accepted that some stuff on singers nights was an excuse to go to the bar ;-) That should not happen on guest nights.

So, back to the original question. Is folk a dirty four letter word because of poor performances at clubs? Maybe. Is it a dirty four letter word because the mainstream media mock (particulary) English traditions? Partly. Is it because there are too many introspective singer/songwriters? Could be. All the factors are in play and many more besides. My feeling is to ignore those who mock and just enjoy what I like :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:57 AM

guest, charles, must have been about 2011. 10 years ago, possibly kiveton park. 10 years ago i sang a song as a request, not typical of my general repertoire.
Dave, yes, the mainstream media do mock it.
EFDSS is also underfunded compared to CCE.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:26 AM

If I go to see Martin Carthy I expect to hear whatever he chooses to perform. This will seldom be entirely traditional songs, and he has been known to go well off-piste at times. I can't recall if I have seen him perform "Rave On", but it has certainly been in his repertoire.

I would not expect to visit any club and find that everything performed was to my taste. That does not mean it should not be performed. If a particular club's style were too far removed from my own preferences I would stop going, but that does not mean it should not be called a folk club.

My own preference is for traditional folk, but I have heard and enjoyed much in folk clubs which was not traditional, but neither did it feel out of place. My life has been enriched by that, as much as it has by "proper" folk.

I've had to sit through stuff I didn't enjoy, but that's a price you pay. The only way to ensure you hear only what you enjoy is either to run your own folk club in a particularly dictatorial way, or stay at home with your own playlists.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:31 AM

This will seldom be entirely traditional songs, quote
over 90 percent of his repertoire has been tradtional songs on the last 3 occasions,i have booked him.
so the majority of his repertoire is tradtional, that is what he is known for performing.
I do not want to hear, my baby has gone down the plug hole, Although there is a clip of him doing that on you tube.
guest charles,[john charles?] tried to trip me up, by recalling, that a long time ago i sang Nicotine Girl, however it is not typical of my repertoire anymore than Rave On or" My baby has gone dpwn the plug" is typical of Mrtin Carthy

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:56 AM

When people ask me what kind of music i perfom i say Folk, Iam proud of my music, for me folk is not a dirty word

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:47 AM

Dick, it was 2019 when you included it in your performance at the club I saw you at.If it was requested I don't remember you saying it was,which means either it was requested because someone knew you did sing it or you chose to perform it.which ever, it was as well received as your traditional songs.As others have said about material that is considered non folk songs or tunes if they are performed well most people will
enjoy them just as much.Life has good and bad bits for everyone,no two people have the same tastes.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:56 PM

The songs that i value and enjoy singing the most are the Traditional ones.
I think it is a similar opinion to that of Walter Pardon

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:13 PM

That is absolutely fine, Dick, and I'm sure that you would not look down on anyone singing non traditional folk songs. I do not know why you feel the need to substantiate your opinion with that of Walter Pardon but, from what I have heard, I am pretty sure he would not have decried anyone singing non traditional songs either. Folk is a very broad church and many different songs and singers can be accommodated.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:15 PM

We've got a bit sidetracked here into the question of what is and is not acceptable in a folk club, which isn't really what Colin Randall was talking about.

The debate about the word 'Folk' has been going on since I got involved with this music forty years ago, and probably long before that. At various times the term has been pronounced terminally off-putting to potential audiences outside the magic circle, so less baggage-laden alternatives like 'Roots', 'Acoustic', 'Open Mike', etc. have been proposed. Many of us (of a particular persuasion) preferred 'Traditional' to 'Folk' all along. But then every so often - most recently 10-15 years ago - our cultural influencers start telling us that 'folk is cool again' and we all get excited. Now Colin reports that it's out of vogue once more. Well, whatever - fashions change, and it's always been a niche taste anyway.

'Folk' has been a deeply ambiguous term at least since it was applied for marketing purposes to American singer / song-writers of the Dylan / Paxton era, as opposed to its former meaning of old songs passed down traditionally amongst the rural working class. In more recent times, the record industry has regularly applied the term to any act featuring an acoustic instrument or two. So, is 'folk' to be defined by its musical characteristics, by the style in which it's performed, by the method through which it's transmitted, or by the kind of venue in which it's presented? There's never been a consensus on that, but performers and venues alike will still need some kind of label that signals broadly what kind of music is to be expected.

The reasons different people give for being put off by 'folk' are sometimes contradictory: for some, the word conjures up red-faced heartiness; to others it spells fey and wifty-wafty. The folk club itself will, for some, mean a church-like atmosphere in which any outward signs of enjoyment are frowned upon; for others, a safe space in which audiences actually listen. More to the point, 'folk' is surely seen by many young people as something that the old folks do. That hasn't stopped some really talented young musicians getting wildly enthused by it (often though not always through childhood exposure from parents), but even they are very conscious of the ageing demographic sat in front of them. I propose no remedies, other than the often-discussed hope that more young people will take up the mantle of organising the kind of venues - not necessarily 'clubs' of course - where folk music (or whatever it's called) can be enjoyed in years to come.

As an aside, Walter Pardon did of course sing more than a few Music Hall songs, though according to Jim Carroll (who knew him and interviewed him at length) he drew an aesthetic distinction between those and the older songs in his repertoire.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:20 PM

Walter valued some songs above others let me quote from a conversation jim carroll had with Walter.
JC If you had the choice, Walter if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half a dozen or a dozen songs say, even of all your songs that you sing what would be your choice can you think offhand what you would choose to sing.
WP The Pretty Ploughboy, Rambling Blade would be another, Van Diemans Land. Let The Wind blow high or low ,Broomfeld Hill The Trees They Grow High, thatd be six.
no one mentioned anything about decrieng, other than Dave Polshaw.
both of us
Walter Pardon and Dick Miles are talking about songs we prefer or choose to sing as favourites we were not talking about anyth9ng else in that context, Folk clubs or decrieng non trad songs,, we are talking about the songs we most enjoy singing for orselves
performing in a Folk Club is a different subject, stop muddying the waters.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:26 PM

what does decrieng mean ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:37 PM

Sorry Dave

Decrying

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:42 PM

So, When i sing in a Folk Club, I have to think about two sets. balance of tempo, subject matter,each set, has a beginning a middle and an end,
Because of the structure of the evening and possibly what others have sung. I can only sing some of my favourite songs
. if i was to sing all my favorite folk songs in a folk club.because of how folk clubs have changed in the last 50 years, I do not think i would get rebooked, that is because folk clubs have moved towards anything acoustic goes, and tradtional music has become less popular in folk clubs than it was 50 years ago
FolkClubs are not as busy as 50 years ago, maybe that is a coincidence, or is it some other reason.
I do know that in 1969 folk clubs were very busy and a lot more trad songs were sung than is the case now.
people can draw whatever conclusions they want from that

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:51 PM

Very sensible post as ever from Brian. Who plays mainly traditional but can turn his hand to Sponge Bob shanties :-)

So his Wikipedia entry says!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:25 PM

And once again, Dick, well done for not decrying anyone else's tastes. That is as it should be. Perform your stuff. Let others perform theirs in peace. Live and let live. That is what you are doing isn't it? I am complimenting you on that attitude not arguing about it!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:59 PM

Nick: How do musical genres interweave?

Like beach sand:

Country & Western: Chet Atkins first cover of Yellow Bird is the old French-Caribbean berceuse presented in an American exotica arrangement as Caribbean Guitar.

Bluegrass: A few years later Atkins covered it a third time as a member of The Nashville String Band (w/Homer & Jethro & Co..) It's what one might expect from that lineup but with a full string section arrangement by Suzi Ragsdale's uncle John. It's certainly not the,

Jazz: of Jamaican Monty Alexander or the,

Showtunes: of Inia Te Wiata or Rita & Sakura who sound nothing like the,

Folk: Seeger & Stringsinger cover of that same French melody they adapted directly from the,

Lounge: 'Original' which the Haitian-American composer took from the old D'Anjou,

Berceuse:.... rinse-repeat.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:32 PM

Back to the thread title, for every genre mentioned above:

+99% - Don't know, don't care. Rather watch football, +Yes. I do not like [X]. There's really no good way to tell the two consumer groups apart.

<1% - No. I like [X].

So. If you like [X]. You are, by definition, a tiny minority. Not even 1%. And you don't know, or care, or maybe even not like, the other +99% of not [X].

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:27 PM

What we need is stormtroopers in all the folk clubs.....

First time some scoundrel gets up and says....'this is a James Taylor type folksong...!'

Out with the rubber truncheons!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,AC Wilson
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:35 PM

Re "pedestalisation": Is a "pedal steel" a folk instrument? Circle Y or N...

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,AC Wilson
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:08 PM

Somebody or somebodies, once a upon a time, came up with a song with a tune, likely including bits of other songs from before. Others sang and played, changed it along the way. When did it become traditional and/or folk? - there is no clean answer to that.

At 69 years old, my personal taste keeps expanding. Sometimes I listen to a traditional song; other times I listen to a brand new piece that has neither melody nor harmony. The two could even happen in the same concert set. Many musicians cross "genre" all of the time, because they enjoy multiple genres, as do I.

Here in Chicago, almost every music venue that I frequent (in these COVID times, via streaming) presents many different types of concerts. I would not have it any other way, because I personally enjoy listening to many kinds of music.

(Apparently, some "ancient Greeks" who complained that the kids were turning everything to shit. I pray to the universe that I never say that.)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:04 AM

I think the idea that a folk song needs to be written by persons unknown and passed down orally is clearly too restrictive a definition for what is widely regarded as folk music in Scotland. It would exclude the songs of Robert Burns, Lady Nairn, James Hogg, Alicia Spottiswoode etc plus newer writers like the Corries, Dougie McLean etc. Plus of course there are new fiddle tunes being written all the time by trad players.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:07 AM

You know when I was in my salad days (about three years ago when I was 69) I was just like you. Full of liberalism and all for personal freedom and the right to express yourself.

Nowadays, I'm a lot more grumpy and old. I'm not actually sure anyone who disagrees with me about the nature of folk music should be allowed to remain on the surface of the earth.

There has to be some standards, otherwise all would be anarchy.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:22 AM

I agree completely, Allan. Trouble is that the die hards will tell you that there is such a wealth of traditional material that there is no need for anything new. There is also the issue of deciding which new songs, singers and songwriters are folk and which are pop. I, personally, would include some (but not all) songs by David Gray or Ed Sheeran for instance. When I dared to suggest that I was jumped on from a great height and told that songs written for the mass market could never be folk. Even if performed in a folk style.

But I am going back to what is folk rather than answering the OPs question. Maybe it is linked though. Is folk a dirty word to some because the arbiters of folk taste have deemed that if it is popular, it cannot be folk?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:45 AM

there is a 1954 definition , it may have flaws, but i doubt if it is going to be replaced.
Who are these arbiters of taste, are they the folk agents pushing their products.
popular music has a name it is pop, classical music has a name it is classical, jazz has a name.. jazz
folk has a classification too,
Are you intent on destroying all classifications?
and what exactly is a folk style, i thought there were many folk styles, if you believe style determines folk rather than repertoire then if i was to sing Tiptoe through the Tulips unaccompanied or with a concertina , it does not suddenly become a folk song.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:09 AM

Under the 1954 definition, the newer writers that Allan mentions could never write folk songs. Besides, I thought we had already determined that 1954 was useful for academics and collectors but of little use in real life.

I have no intention of destroying anything as I have already, apparently, destroyed folk music :-D

I have no idea whether "Tiptoe through the tulips" (written by Al Dubin (lyrics) and Joe Burke (music) in 1929) will ever become a folk song. I do know that I have heard "Carolina Moon", also co-written by Joe Burke, performed in a folk setting and it was well received.

As to the arbiters of folk taste, I don't know who they all are but they tell us, whenever these discussions arise, what is and is not folk music.

Like I have said umpteen times. No, not all music is folk. No, I cannot define it but if I enjoy it and it sounds like folk, I am happy. I do not speak for anyone else.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:11 AM

BTW, Dick, you became an arbiter in this thread when you deemed one modern song acceptable while an older one was not!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSlcNfThUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSlcNfThUA
you do not speak for anyone else?, i thought you were the mps forGnomes

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:19 AM

the fact that i prefer The Shortest story, to little sir hugh, IS NOT RELEVANT

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:22 AM

By the same writer

Carolina Moon

Interpretation and style have a lot to do with it

Us Gnomes don't have a government. We are anarchists

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:21 AM

that is your opinion, nothing more, it is not my opinion. i think style has a small part to play but repertoire has a bigger part.
   MacColl encouraged younger singers to look at and listen to indigenous singers of the uk and ireland, co incidentally the folk clubs were full and people sang mainly trad material.
anything goes, more latterly, and the folk clubs are not so full. is this a co incidence, who knows but it is fact

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:47 AM

Here is a quote from Jim Carroll, on the subject of the oral tradtion
Something I neglected to mention was what James Hogg's mother told Sir Walter Scott when she was singing him her ballads, "They were meant for singing, now you have written them down you have killed them" (paraphrase).
Apart from being a vital piece of evidnce in the literary/oral argument, that, for me, described perfectly the double edged sword that literacy was, regarding our oral traditions.
On the one hand, it helped immortalise the songs sung by the people, on the other, it eventually helped kill off the creativity of those people and turn them/us into passive recipients rather than creators of our culture.
A song set in print is by nature resistant to change;

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:50 AM

Of course it is my opinion, Dick. As is your opinion. Both are subjective and both add to what are considered to be folk songs. You believe that a song written by Harry Chapin and one written by Alan Smethurst are both suitable for performing at a folk club. Others may disagree but I don't. I believe that some songs written by Cat Stevens or Jackson Browne are suitable. Others may disagree. There is no point in flogging this dead horse any longer. People will never agree on what they believe is folk music. The best we can hope for is a consensus where, on any given folk club evening, most of the audience enjoy most of the songs performed.

That adds nothing whatsoever to the opening question of course. As there are so many opinions on what the term folk music includes, which opinion in particular lends itself to becoming a dirty four letter word? As (I think) Brian pointed out earlier, some people dislike the modern singer songwriters while others dislike the traditional style. The former would say that folk is decried because of the inclusion of contemporary music while the latter would argue that it is sticking in the past that gives folk a bad name. I do not agree with either but can understand both viewpoints.

The fact that folk clubs are not as busy as they used to be is not necessarily an indication that they are doing anything wrong. Pubs are not as busy. Theatres are not as busy. Cinemas are not as busy. Economics and technology has a massive impact on everything.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:54 AM

who knows...? Its a bit like the lost tribes of the Kalahari. Perhaps all these fans of traditional music died in paroxyms of wanton pleasure having forgotten en masse the last line of The Molecatcher, and sudden recollection of that last line just slayed them.

I've often sat there yearning for something of that nature to occur.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:08 AM

Perhaps there is a Valhalla where they sing Three Score and Ten, The Nutting Girl round the campfire ....a bit like that folk tale of yore....Heads Down! Tea breaks over!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:22 AM

The fact that folk clubs are not as busy as they used to be is not necessarily an indication that they are doing anything wrong." quote
   
niether is it an indication they are doing anything right, but is a fact thatthey are not so well attended as 50 years ago.
but how many acoustic music clubs have survived 50 years

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:53 AM

Is folk a dirty word?
No.
Folk song and dance is of interest to a small part of the population,as is stamp collecting, model trains and photography.
It has a quite a large following compared to many minority interest groups and has several long standing and quite big annual festivals in the UK.Over the years I have been to several of the larger festivals and noticed that many of the same attendees were present at virtually all of them.The young men and women of the 1960s are now old and grey,but amongst the crowds are new young faces, just not as many.
The general public see the festivals as a colourfull diversion in what is a normally routine life,but will generate the odd convert.
In the 50s and 60s when most Mudcat followers were in their teens and early 20s it became popular largely through TV and radio playing groups like Peter,Paul and Mary and the Spinners etc and gained for a short period almost a minor pop status and was something your parents didn't do,always true of youth.
Like any such popular movements time moved on and many gained new interests, folk retained quite a large number of followers,but not as many as in the early days.
My thoughts on the subject,discuss

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:55 AM

The unnamed guest was me

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 10:00 AM

I think that is true, Derrick. I started my teens in 1965 and, yes, got interested in folk shortly after via bands like Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention and Jethro Tull. It was not something my parents were into but my Polish Grandmother loved the voices of both Sandy Denny and Maddy Prior :-)

Yes, Dick, the decline in folk club attendances does nothing to indicate that they are getting things right either. Half full? Half empty? Either way there are more logical reasons for the decline in live entertainment in general than just a change in presentation. In fact, I suspect that the change in presentation followed the decline in numbers rather than the other way round. People trying new things to bolster attendances maybe? Cause and effect is never clear cut!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 01:42 PM

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:08 AM

Perhaps there is a Valhalla where they sing Three Score and Ten, The Nutting Girl round the campfire
the Nutting Girl was sung in The Blaxhall Ship
https://eafa.org.uk/work/?id=1340   BOY SCOUTS NORMALLY SANG GING GANG GHOLUEYS, round the camp fire