Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:12 PM

So to summarise, the first five albums are more veering towards traditional song; the last two are primarily singer-songwriter-guitarists who are influenced by 60s/70s UK folk. I don't think any of them are shy about using the word to describe themselves ??

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 09:14 PM

Jim Carroll is a legend among folk music scholars, dear moderator. He knows more than you, me and most other contributors here about our genre. No-one is criticising you for removing him and we should be able to talk about him. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 03:18 AM

Nice to see you back Nigel. Where have you been?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:43 AM

Much to agree with in Nick Dow (04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM ) Sadly I was another who became the butt of insults for daring to disagree with the entrenched opinions. After a good time away from Mudcat, I now find that the perpetrator has been removed from Mudcat.
Perhaps I will restart an engagement here

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

Well at least he did it to your face Nick Dow, Vic Smith and not behind your back.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:48 AM

Yes but sometimes people feel a bit too vulnerable to get biffed in the face. You can say well you should not involve yourself in a robust dialogue.
I've had that said to me a few times - so you crawl off to lick your wounds , whilst the shit slinger purrs contentedly.

But every time that happens your heart hardens a little bit, and mudcat feels less like a meeting place for human beings and more like a a gang of fuck ups hiding behind computers.
I noticed a load of right wing Americans depart soon after I joined. Not for what I said, but they got pissed off with being the butt of judgemental middle class types whose idea of ethnic diversity was watching a Sidney Poitier movie. In their own country the Americans felt like normal citizens like the Trump voting ones. But on here, they were the source of the River Styx.

If you only talk to people who agree with you - you won't learn much.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 07:17 AM

Thanks for that Keith, and you know that how?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:05 AM

I just think your comments were unnecessary Nick. Jim Carroll has not taken part in this thread and couldn't respond whether he wanted to or not.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:21 AM

I've just scrolled back through the thread. I now understand Steve Shaw's post on 4th of January 9.14. Some previous posts concerning Jim Carroll have been removed, so it now seems that my post on 4th Jan 7.09 has come out of nowhere. In fact Keith it was a reply to the removed posts, had I read my post without that reference I would have agreed with you, it now looks unnecessary and I would not have included it here.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:45 AM

Jim hasn't been stopped from posting on Mudcat. He has just had his membership revoked which means he can no longer post below the line. He can post as a guest on the music section and I know he keeps an eye on it too so nothing is being said behind anyones back. This adds nothing to the thread of course and may cause bad feelings, or even get the thread closed, if it continues, So I suggest we go no further down this path.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:53 AM

Jim has been stopped from posting on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:09 AM

My apologies if I've taken this out of context Nick.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:10 AM

Sorry I'm the guest

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

He hasn't, Dick. Anyone can post in Mudcat Music section, whether they are logged in or not. They just cannot post in the BS section. Trust me on this, I made a good living in IT for 40 years. There are umpteen people without membership have posted as Guest or Guest:Name on this thread alone.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 12:54 PM

Joe runs this forum, the fact that anyone[ who has not had their mudcat membership revoked] can post in the mudcat music section, does not mean that Jim is allowed to.
Until i hear otherwise from Joe , I am under the impression that Jim is NOT ALLOWED and not encouraged to post anywhere on Mudcat.

---

Actually, I would love to have Jim Carroll post about music at Mudcat. And there's nothing to stop him from posting about music. I just couldn't put up with his constant tirades demanding that other people be banned. Jim has an enormous amount of folk music knowledge, and I'd love to have him share it here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:06 PM

This is me logged out, Dick

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:08 PM

This is me posting from a server in Tirana, Albania

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Steve The Almighty!
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:11 PM

...And that's MEEEE, Dick!

(Steve Shaw to be precise - now back to reality...)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:11 PM

This is me posting from an anonymous server in the USA using Opera browser

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:16 PM

This is me signed back in again.

There is a huge difference between asking someone not to post and actually stopping them. Even if Jim does not chose to post, I do know that he still reads some threads.

And it still has nothing to do with folk being a dirty word.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 02:07 PM

Blimey, Dave, you get around the whole planet in a flash AND can still find time to take in an opera... Kudos!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 02:25 PM

Is opera a dirty 5 letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

Filthiest song I ever wrote ave
That wasthe chorus
I shoved it opera

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM

??? - Sorry Al :-(

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:30 AM

I was listening to Thought for the day and the speaker mentioned a new folk song The Lost Words Blessing written by Julie Fowlis and Karine Polwart, QUOTE Inspired by the tradition of Scottish gaelic incantantions.
a song based on tradtion and roots of scottish Gaelic incantantion
I find this intersting and it seems not unreasonable to call it a folk song.
The presenter thought it was ok to call it a folk song, and what great publicity for the writers of the song.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=the+lost+blessingyou+tube

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:40 AM

So, now all the silliness seems to have stopped, I have a question. What can we, the supporters of folk music, do to help repair the poor image that our mainstream media have created and perpetuate?

I remember the late, great Dave Weatherall (Jolly Jack) being particularly put out when I made the joke "good enough for folk". He pointed out that it was jokes like that that did nothing to help the poor image. He was right of course and since then I have tried my best to be positive about the image of folk even when faced with 'jokes' about fingers in ears, navel gazing songwriters or rustic Morris dancers.

I no longer run a club and have never performed professionally but there are plenty here that do one, the other or both. How do you help promote folk music and what do you recommend others do to help?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:43 AM

Thanks, Dick. We were posting at the same time and your comment is a good example of bolstering the image of Scottish folk.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:05 AM

Hi Dave - I'm good thanks, in answer to your question a few days ago! Hope you are.

I'm not sure any of us can do much about the negative image folk music has in some parts of the media. I'm also not sure it matters that much.

I tend to simply point people at music that blows my mind, like this by House & Land and suggest preconceptions are best left at the door.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:23 AM

Well with the best will in the world (and my will is in the top four) - are you asking the right question Dave?

To me it seems that folk is dirty, by definition. Its the English language you are taking issue with.

Folk is the music of the great unwashed. The Queen isn't folk, or her family. THe house of Lords isn't folk.

People write folksongs about the nobility like Matty Groves, and Sir Patrick Spens. But Lords and ladies have their gig and folk belongs with the mucky denizens in the mucky streets.

All attempts to trap it on BBC4 for half a dozen insomniacs and a couple of superstars who need a government grant and a record deal to change their guitar strings have been pretty shit - compared to the actual stuff of pubs, and peoples front rooms.

Blues doesn't shy away from its demotic origins and the fact that all the practitioners are skint. Why should we?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM

People write folksongs about the nobility like Matty Groves quote

Matty Groves is about arranged marriages, AND SOCIETY AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
the necessity for his wife to be buried on top because she was of noble kin, his lord ship was a psychopath and power freak,who it appears was not tried for murder because of his social position, not much different from john hardy[ apart from the outcome,because of his social position], or the nutter in "early morning blues"
however. it will be intersting to see what happens to the Prince who was a friend of Epstein., Have times changed?
Folk belongs to people from all levels of society and about all levels of society.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM

I am thank you Nigel :-)

That link was lovely but, putting on my devils advocate hat, how does it help the image of English folk music? And there are some amongst us who would claim that the instrumental accompaniment detract from the song! ;-) (Not me I hasten to add. I thought it was great)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 12:26 PM

"How does it help the image of English folk music?"

To be honest, it probably doesn't. But, one of the things I like about House & Land is that here are two excellent musicians who are deeply involved in the US experimental/ underground music scene, yet who are also knowledgeable about traditional music and comfortable enough with playing it to bring influences from their other musical lives into their song arrangements. To me this normalises folk music - it's not out on a limb but part of their wider musical lives. Jake Xerxes Fussell is another good example - a very good interpreter of traditional songs who is equally at home sharing a bill with rock and underground musicians as he is playing on more specifically folky stages (last time I saw him he was on tour with
Daniel Bachman).

Here's Jake Xerxes Fussell live on KEXP. He's got a UK tour in May. I already have tickets :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM

All minority interests are seen by the great unthinking masses as something to fear and take the piss out of, because it doesn't conform to their mass-culture. Mass media has blown this out of all proportion.
Those in power are happy to perpetuate this state of affairs.

All you can do is make good music and hope that you inspire some people. You'll never inspire all of them.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 07:16 PM

Non Conformity, is OK, unless it makes loads of money. See my posting on this thread 18th of December. Nothing wrong with making money, but not at the expense of professed beliefs, and musical dedication. Inspire and then betray, happens rarely if at all in the Folk world. I believe we all value that, and should be proud of it. No, not a dirty four letter word at all.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:27 AM

What if it goes the other way? Someone who has already made loads of money in pop music then releases some non conformist folky stuff that is different to their musical direction? Eddi Reader for instance with her Robert Burns showcase? Neither Fairground Attraction nor mainstream! Should performers from the pop world be able to switch direction or can pop singers never be acceptable performing folk?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:55 AM

Barbara Dickson went from Folk music in folk clubs, to mainstream success in the pop charts and in musical theatre, then back to the folk music world again. Good on her I say. Don't see why you can't do both. Let's face it Karine Polwart chops and changes from album to album. Why not??? If you make a good folk album then it is a good folk album - even if the previous one was a cover of 80s pop songs or whatever. Why should musicians be restricted?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 03:08 AM

It's not the money, or the musical direction, it's the sincerity. Of course you can do other things, just be honest about it. Unlike the likes of John Lydon IMHO. That's where we've got the edge I think. That's the point I was making.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:09 AM

Yes, I see what you mean, Allan and Nick. I agree. I did ask for a reason, well two really. Primarily, if mainstream singers do folky stuff then it may become both better known and more acceptable among the younger generations. Of course we may get some critics slagging them off but that always happens. Secondly, I was once told in no uncertain terms that pop singers can never do folk as they are only in it for the money and any folk singers trying out new stuff are just wannabee pop singers. Good to see that attitude is not endemic :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:11 AM

Oh, and thanks for the other links Nigel. I have enjoyed them all. I think you are now the named expert on folk fusions :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:38 AM

Well this is what I mean about spiritual.

I'm not sure you can define and refine the quiditas of what is folk music in the same way that Thomas Aquinas tried with truth, beauty and Christian faith. And frankly - I'm not sure its a worthy aim - after all what is it for except to say 'yahboo! Sucks to you!' to someone who is pissing you off.

If you have someone who turns at your club and wants to sing rubbish - them to piss off. You don't need the 1954 definition and bell book and candle. sod off! usually does the job.

To me - artists and pieces of music float in and out of the orbit of what is folk music. The intention to be folk music is is largely illusory. Its like a venn diagram where the parameters keep changing.

This rancorous going over of old arguments is what imbues the term 'folk' with poison.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:51 AM

I can see the advantages of Folk music being popularised through adverts, but I find emotionally, I can then be put off the song, not because it is popular but because of the association, an example might be the Rev Gary Davis version of Candy Man being used to sell Candy Floss.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:00 AM

However if the song, o good ale, or Drink old England dry, was used to advertise a beer like Adnams Spitfire, I probably would feel differently.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:10 AM

One of the newer songs most oft sung in Scottish folk clubs is Dougie Mclean's "Caledonia" which first really came to prominence to the Scottish public in general through it's use in an advert for beer in the early 90s. That cover version by "Frankie Miller" was then released as a single and reached the lower regions of the UK pop chart. It is kind of forgotten now and Dougie's own version is the better known again.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 10:41 AM

Amy MacDonald did a version for, I think, Scottish tourism. It was on her album "This is the life" as a hidden track at the end for some reason!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 03:00 AM

Al. "To me - artists and pieces of music float in and out of the orbit of what is folk music." is just about as perfect a description of how it should be as I can imagine. Thank you. Other people would disagree of course and, yes, some have done so in a way that is toxic. Fortunately, they are getting fewer and further between.

I also agree that a word in someone's ear when they cross the line is the best way of going about things. It only happened once in my 30+ years of helping run a folk club though I am glad to say. The perpetrator took offence of course and we never saw him again. But who wants a badly played, out of tune electric guitar blasting out at their folk club? :-S

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 04:37 AM

I saw that happen at 'Grannies Folk and Blues' in London. Raggy Farmer removed the electric noise maker from the stage. Those were the days! I saw the late Christy Hennessey blow the place apart, with sheer personality and his own songs. Sorry! A sign of age reminiscing in public.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:30 AM

… as opposed to a badly-played, out of tune acoustic guitar? Heard many a time down the years…

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:45 AM

At my age I can filter out some sounds, Roderick :-) Amplifiers tend to nullify that :-(

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 10:02 PM

I don't think it does any harm to credit most people with good intentions whatever their beliefs are.

When I was 16 in 1965, most towns of any size had about three folk clubs. I thought (mistakenly) that it was a state of affairs that would endure. How could we possibly throw such treasure stores of entertainment and enrichment away?

I thought I would be safe taking a few years to get my playing up to the standard of the players and singers I admired.

But throw it away we did, and by the time I started writing and performing in the mid 70's, there only fragments left. And by and large the fragments were fought over like a basket of rats.

I don't think theres ever been much point in apportioning blame. By then most of us were living in dormitory towns, far from where we were born - rootless almost by definition. But some of us wanted a voice - despite living in soulless estates. And the songs we produced felt no alliance with basket weavers and the like.   Sure the traditional songs had as many valid virtues as Shakespeare. But the 'in the tradition' business seemed to many of us similar in spirit to the turn of century poets writing about Highwaymen in the age of the steam and early combustion engine.

I don't think we'll ever get back to the generosity of spirit that I remember in those early folk clubs. Folk isn't a dirty word to me. To me its been an artistic movement of terrific achievement. Whether it has good days in front of it is up to us, and the youngsters who come after us.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

...and the youngsters who come after us...
- Who will do it their own way, no matter what people here think, and it very probably won't be in anything called a folk club.